CSM Mike Maynard 24423 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>If you have been informed by the Cdr that the APFT you are taking is for record and you pass your PU and you pass your SU and during the run, you hit a pothole and break an ankle and are unable to complete the test you are a Record Failure and must be flagged? 2013-12-20T07:16:06-05:00 CSM Mike Maynard 24423

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>If you have been informed by the Cdr that the APFT you are taking is for record and you pass your PU and you pass your SU and during the run, you hit a pothole and break an ankle and are unable to complete the test you are a Record Failure and must be flagged?

2013-12-20T07:16:06-05:00 2013-12-20T07:16:06-05:00 SFC Michael Hasbun 24426

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Yes. The regulation does not make any exemptions for injury.

2013-12-20T07:19:31-05:00 2013-12-20T07:19:31-05:00 1SG Steven Stankovich 24435

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>I say "no" and this is my reasoning.  There is the "letter" of the regulation which does not state any exemption due to an injury while taking a record test, and there is the "intent or spirit" of the regulation.  I could not in good conscience recommend to a Commander to flag a Soldier who has sustained an injury while taking a record APFT.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Real world situation.  One of my SFCs, who is in outstanding shape, collapsed during the 2MR event during an APFT.  We renederd first aid and got him over to the clinic.  After being examined and tested by the medical folks, it was determined that he had pulled some cartilage between his ribs.  Once his profile and recovery time was completed, he was re-tested and passed.  No harm, no foul. </p>

2013-12-20T07:30:55-05:00 2013-12-20T07:30:55-05:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 24473

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Has anybody heard of the common sense factor?! all they need to do is write in the comment section of the&amp;nbsp; 705 form of what happened. COME on NOW!!&lt;br&gt;

2013-12-20T08:17:54-05:00 2013-12-20T08:17:54-05:00 MAJ Private RallyPoint Member 25324

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Keep in mind, that simply asking the question proves that there is a different point of view, and if there's a different point of view, chances are someone out there thinks that way.<div><br></div><div>One of those someones is now retired, but he routinely disregarded the rules and regulations to further his own means. The larger theme of "what do you do when the NCO you're supposed to trust has little to no regard for Army Regulations" is a question for a different thread, but to return back to the question at hand, I've seen a First Sergeant use failed APFT and/or failed Height/Weight to punish a Soldier, even though that Soldier did everything right (not just diagnosis from a physician, but also proper profile paperwork), and a Commander so blindly trust that First Sergeant because, well, he's the First Sergeant!</div><div><br></div><div>That First Sergeant taped incorrectly, used a scale that was not calibrated, and would run APFTs incorrectly, simultaneously quoting and disregarding FM 7-22, FM 3-22.20, AR 600-9, AR 600-8-2, and all the other bodies of literature on the matter, and just plain common sense.</div>

2013-12-21T11:30:09-05:00 2013-12-21T11:30:09-05:00 SFC Rocky Gannon 25377

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>&lt;p&gt;In TC 3-22.20 it states the following:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;APFT FAILURES&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A-37. Soldiers who fail to achieve the minimum passing score for their age and gender on any event are considered test failures. If a Soldier is ill or becomes injured during the APFT and fails to achieve the minimum passing score for their age and gender on any event, he is considered a test failure.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That being said, in AR 600-8-2 it states at the Commanders discretion s/he doesn&#39;t have to flag a soldier that is unable to complete a APFT. I believe that in this case the Commander, after a Doctor examines the Soldier, and issues a profile for a broken leg, there is no reason to issue a flag. If you followed the letter of the Regulation, then maybe, however, there is only one person that controls that soldier and that is the Commander, thus the reason, at the Commanders discretion, is placed in the regulation. &lt;/p&gt;

2013-12-21T13:50:05-05:00 2013-12-21T13:50:05-05:00 CSM Mike Maynard 25384

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Thanks to everyone for the feedback. Glad to see that common sense and some compassion has prevailed in this situation.&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Seems that everyone and the TC agree that the Soldier would be documented as a failure - no way getting around that since they were informed it was a record, but the requirement to flag is left to the discretion of the commander in this instance.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Here is where the &quot;art&quot; of command comes into play. Since we are establishing that not ALL record APFT failures must be flagged (talking about in the case of an injury), then how do you draw the line on a legitimate injury? I think withholding your decision until you get medical advice is a good place to start in determining whether it is an injury vs effort.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Even with common sense and compassion, there will be those that state not everyone gets treated the same and that some are being unfairly flagged while others are not. This will be when your leadership will be required to maintain good order and discipline and a fair climate.&lt;/div&gt;

2013-12-21T14:18:49-05:00 2013-12-21T14:18:49-05:00 CW2 Joseph Evans 25385

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>You cite specifically the breaking of a leg because a Soldier tripped on a pothole (or something similar). Under this instance, the flag can be appealed because the running course was not "free of significant hazards" that could impact the Soldiers ability to complete, and therefore not properly administered.<br>The OIC or NCOIC could actually be charged for negligence, having selected a course that increases the risk factor associated with the test and resulted in a critical injury that put a Soldier out of commission for the period of healing and recovery.<br>

2013-12-21T14:33:46-05:00 2013-12-21T14:33:46-05:00 1SG Frank Rocha 25543

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>True. In order for an APFT to be valid, the aerobic event must be completed. However, if you are injured or become ill during the APFT, and cannot finish or complete and pass each event It would be an APFT failure.<br>

2013-12-21T21:10:08-05:00 2013-12-21T21:10:08-05:00 1SG Michael Blount 25748

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I don&#39;t have the Reg in front of me, but I&#39;m thinking if a Soldier got hurt during an APFT and couldn&#39;t complete it, got a profile as a result, then no flag was required.&amp;nbsp; An otherwise healthy Soldier who quit during an APFT event would get the flag, along with a good but-chewing from me

2013-12-22T08:54:47-05:00 2013-12-22T08:54:47-05:00 SGM Private RallyPoint Member 26030

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Great question CSM, one that really made me think.  I strive to remain fair.  If a Soldier is hurt during an APFT, and after conferring with medical professionals, are found to be hurt, I would recommend to my commander to not initiate the FLAG.  If on the other hand our PA states that there was no reason the Soldier failed to achieve a passing score, I would recommend to my commander to initiate the FLAG.  I know my Soldiers and know who is fit and who isn't.  Unfortunately, even my personal knowledge of the Soldier wouldn't sway my recommendation.  If I didn't make my decisions with all the facts, or if I made my decisions based on emotions, I would open the door to those Soldiers that are looking for ways to get over on the system, thus fostering an environment with a lack of good order and discipline.   

2013-12-22T19:28:20-05:00 2013-12-22T19:28:20-05:00 CPT Private RallyPoint Member 33895

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I actually saw this happen a long time ago. Soldier fell (tripped over his own feet) about 25 meters or so from the finish line. His time was good, he was just sprinting it out and we were on a regular track. Very nasty break with the bone sticking out. The ambulance came and got him and took him to the ER. <div><br></div><div>He got a nice cast and all that. It was later found out that the 1SG convinced the CO to rip up that APFT card and they gave him one when he recovered. </div><div><br></div><div>Whether or not that's right as per the regs go, it was right for the soldier. And we knew that the command would think for themselves and take care of the soldier. Because at the end of the day, that's what its all about right? </div>

2014-01-06T20:21:51-05:00 2014-01-06T20:21:51-05:00 LTC Private RallyPoint Member 37077

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I agree with the discussion that the soldier should be given leeway.  A simple solution to this problem though would come when the soldier would be treated for his injury.  For reserve members this would be an LOD(Line of Duty) injury.  For all soldiers, they would be profiled that day for no APFT run, prolonged standing, marching, etc. The date of the profile would be the day that he/she broke their leg and would thus exempt them from that PT test.  The soldier would then require treatment and be given a period after he/she met full recovery to pass their PT test.  Certainly, a profile is a recommendation to a Commander and not an order so the Commander could theoretically push the issue but I can't foresee a circumstance where this would happen in this situation.  A clear fractured leg is pretty hard to argue with but if there's some question of the injury or whether the soldier may be malingering or not, that's another story.

2014-01-12T21:28:33-05:00 2014-01-12T21:28:33-05:00 SFC Gary Fox 44525

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I had a young Soldier who was quite the runner and fast. &amp;nbsp;He was always determined to beat the time of his previous 2 mile run. &amp;nbsp;During one for record APFT, he was moving at a very good clip on a 1/3 mile track. &amp;nbsp;He was sprinting the last 100 yards and it looked like he was going to come in at around 11 minutes. &amp;nbsp;When he was about 25 meters from the finish, he lost his balance and fell. &amp;nbsp;He was skinned up pretty good, but no broken bones or other injury. &amp;nbsp;The commander was there as well and witnessed what happened. &amp;nbsp;Just before he fell, everyone was cheering him on. &amp;nbsp;He said the cheering encouraged him to attempt to run faster. &amp;nbsp;The commander said it would be wrong to flag him when he would have passed if he hadn&#39;t fallen. &amp;nbsp;A couple of weeks later, the Soldier took the APFT and passed. &amp;nbsp;He didn&#39;t beat the time for his run on his previous APFT, but he did score 300 points.

2014-01-26T11:30:03-05:00 2014-01-26T11:30:03-05:00 SGT Private RallyPoint Member 50148

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Trick question!<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Record failure? Yes!</div><div><br></div><div>MUST be Flagged? No!</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

2014-02-03T11:43:34-05:00 2014-02-03T11:43:34-05:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 97229

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I'm gonna refer to common sense on that one CSM.

2014-04-09T04:14:13-04:00 2014-04-09T04:14:13-04:00 1SG Private RallyPoint Member 111730

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>CSM,<br /><br />I am going to have to play devils advocate on this one. First let me start off by saying if a Soldier broke their leg on an APFT do I agree that they should be flagged? No. But on the flip side I can&#39;t enforce any standards if I choose which ones to follow.<br /><br />I wont regurgitate all the same regulations that everyone else did but I will expound on one and then give my opinion.<br /><br />AR 600-8-2 has been quoted a few times already. The problem is that everyone stops the quoting one sentence short. Here is the section in its entirety from the reg.<br /><br />b. “Army Physical Fitness Test failure” (Flag code J). Initiate a Flag when a Soldier fails a record APFT or when, through the Soldier’s fault as determined by the commander, the Soldier fails to take the APFT within the time prescribed by existing regulations, or when directed by the commanding officer (as provided for in AR 350–1). A Flag is not required for a Soldier who has a permanent or temporary profile that precludes taking the APFT or is unable to<br />undergo an APFT because of conditions beyond the Soldier’s control (as determined by the commander). Soldiers with a profile effective after the APFT will remain flagged until a record APFT is passed. A Flag is not required when the commander determines the Soldier cannot be administered an alternate APFT because of conditions beyond the Soldier’s control. Soldiers who become pregnant after being flagged for failing an APFT (as determined by a physician) will remain flagged until successfully passing an APFT. Remove the Flag (code E) on date of compliance. If, as determined by her primary care provider, the Soldier was pregnant at the time of APFT failure, the commander will immediately remove the Flag (code Z).<br /><br />Now that I put the whole section here let us talk about the two main sentence&#39;s.<br /><br />&quot;A Flag is not required for a Soldier who has a permanent or temporary profile that precludes taking the APFT or is unable to undergo an APFT because of conditions beyond the Soldier’s control (as determined by the commander).&quot;<br /><br />This is the sentence that everyone keeps using as the reason why the commander does not have to flag. My interpretation of this (I am an NCO not an officer so my way of thinking doesn&#39;t mean anything) is that the Soldier began the APFT fully mission capable and was able to &quot;undergo&quot; the APFT. I don&#39;t feel that a commander can decide halfway through and APFT that you can be precluded from the event.<br /><br />The second thing that I will point out is the very next sentence.<br /><br />&quot;Soldiers with a profile effective after the APFT will remain flagged until a record APFT is passed.&quot;<br /><br />A broken leg during the APFT would result in a profile effective after the APFT. It clearly states the soldier WILL remain flagged. I believe in regulation the word WILL is not a suggestion but a statement of what WILL be done. And that sentence doesn&#39;t have the commanders discretion in parenthesis like the previous.<br /><br /><br />Does this mean if every failure went to the doctor day of the APFT and got a profile they would not be flagged? If I was one of the other Soldiers who failed I may go to the doc claiming shoulder pain if it would void my failed APFT.<br /><br />Just my own personal interpretation of the regulation but like I said I am an NCO I follow orders I don&#39;t give them.

2014-04-26T05:29:08-04:00 2014-04-26T05:29:08-04:00 SSgt Private RallyPoint Member 112052

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>In the air force if you injure your self during the pt test You are instructed to stop immediately and it will not be counted against you. Although if you continue and complete the test it counts against you.

2014-04-26T13:31:58-04:00 2014-04-26T13:31:58-04:00 SFC Rich Carey 136914

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I had a Soldier whose leg broke fifty feet from the finish line. She did not fail to her own fault. No Flag, but failed APFT, annotated reason why.<br /><br />She even tried to get up and run, but only falling again. Others wanted to help her finish. I halted them and kept her still, until helped arrived. It was a closed fracture, but when she stepped I saw it broke completely...<br /><br />Common sense call.

2014-05-28T14:20:57-04:00 2014-05-28T14:20:57-04:00 SSgt Private RallyPoint Member 243479

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>In the military you are basically an indentured servant with your future in the hands of others. If the unit (ie..First Sgt and Cmdr) doesn't like that solider they could take advantage of that injury to screw him/her over. You would think they would want to help the soldier but common sense doesn't always get applied in situations like this.

2014-09-16T13:58:57-04:00 2014-09-16T13:58:57-04:00 SPC Private RallyPoint Member 406027

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Unfortunatly I believe it to be true. I had a very similar incident happen on my last APFT. A dislocated knee with two muscle damage around the knee. I'm a soldier who had never before failied an APFT and am usually a running in and around 14 min mark. Yet the failure stood and the flag was placed.

2015-01-07T11:30:51-05:00 2015-01-07T11:30:51-05:00 1SG Jeanine Peterson 595943

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>True, by regulation that is what is supposed to happen. But common sense dictates a good leader would not Flag a soldier for such action.

2015-04-16T11:59:12-04:00 2015-04-16T11:59:12-04:00 SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member 974285

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Yes they would be a APFT failer however you do not have to flag a soldier if they fail an APFT. I would say you would have to find a commander with nothing to loose to flag the soldier.

2015-09-17T23:26:49-04:00 2015-09-17T23:26:49-04:00 SGM Private RallyPoint Member 974315

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Yes, SGM, even though you broke your leg you still failed to complete all events.

2015-09-17T23:40:43-04:00 2015-09-17T23:40:43-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 1015495

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I LITERALLY just had this situation, got down to take my sit-ups after doing push-ups (best score in years personally on the PU), started to sustain a tear in my back leg muscle and the Medic on station terminated my event. Now I am counseled for being an APFT failure, just before I am to pin my E7 as well. Reg needs to be looked at and adjusted to reflect just a bit of common sense!!!

2015-10-04T13:17:00-04:00 2015-10-04T13:17:00-04:00 MAJ Ken Landgren 1015666

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>APFT FAILURES<br /><br />A-37. Soldiers who fail to achieve the minimum passing score for their age and gender on any event are considered test failures. If a Soldier is ill or becomes injured during the APFT and fails to achieve the minimum passing score for their age and gender on any event, he is considered a test failure.<br /><br />I don't agree with it.

2015-10-04T14:39:20-04:00 2015-10-04T14:39:20-04:00 SPC Private RallyPoint Member 1205374

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>2 years ago I took a "for record" APFT. I passed my PU and SU without problem. However, during my run on lap 5 of 6 I snapped my tibia (later Ortho mentioned that I may have had an undiagnoised stress fracture). I was sent to the ER and never finished my run. My record APFT went down as a failure but I never got flagged.

2015-12-30T12:03:44-05:00 2015-12-30T12:03:44-05:00 ENS Private RallyPoint Member 2556450

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>It&#39;s different in the Navy. We had a guy who&#39;s foot slipped into a storm drain and he ended up spraining his ankle. His run was scored as a 59:59 - thus constituting a failure. He was unable to advance or get appropriate eval marking scores until he passed his PRT. He was also placed on FEP (fitness enhancement program) with those who failed their PRT. I disagreed with it, however the decision was made by higher powers than me.

2017-05-09T11:54:26-04:00 2017-05-09T11:54:26-04:00 2013-12-20T07:16:06-05:00