Can a command punish an individual for not passing division standards? Can legal authorize this?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Nov 2022 20:56:10 -0500

I’m stationed at Fort Campbell, KY. My soldier failed his 4x36 and so did many others. I understand 4 miles in 36 minutes is the Fort Campbell standard but, it is not the Army standard. I was told by my PSG that the command team is considering flagging / barring individuals for not passing the 4x36. This could lead to chaptering those individuals for “failure to adapt.” My soldier has been here for over a year but he has trouble running. I’m helping him work on it. I want to fight for my soldier and keep him in the Army. He doesn’t deserve punitive action against him when he is passing ALL Army requirements. (ACFT, marksmanship etc.)
So, what I’m asking is, can they follow through and punish an individual for not passing division standards? Can legal authorize this?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2022 2:53 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Nov 2022 02:53:06 -0500

We see this question in here every once in a while in different forms. It usually goes, "can I be punished", "can I be denied retention /promotion" for failing to maintain unit standards?

Short answer is no. Long answer is hell no.

I'd you look on a flag sheet, you will see all the reasons a person can be flagged. There is a lot of them, but not a single one says "failed unit standards". The Army sets the standard for what the lowest is that is required for a Soldier to pass. Commanders are encouraged to set higher standards to encourage members, but they cannot punish members for failure to meet those standards.

Bars are a little more subjective, but any experienced Career Counselor is going to advise the BN CDR that you can't apply an Army bar to a Soldier for a Command created standard. Back when I became a counselor the Army was going through a Reduction and units were establishing an OML and boards to pick who could be retained. The Army at the highest levels quickly put out a message to the entire force that this was illegal. It was called the tri-signed memo because it was from the Secretary of the Army, the Secretary of Defense, and the highest General at the time. It stated that the Army creates the standard for retention and units will not create their own standards.

If, by some crazy turn of a events, your BN level Career Counselor is new and allows your BN CDR to approve such a bar, your Soldier should appeal it and it will go to the BDE CDR where an experienced Senior Career Counselor will shoot this idea down. In the mean time, if your Company level command continues to threaten punishment for things like this, I advise a quick walk to the IG office. They are equipped to explain to your command team what is within their legal authority to execute, and what is not. Your command team won't get in trouble, but they will he retrained in the correct application of bars and flags.

The Army sets the standard for what is required because that affects eligibility for retention and promotion. If you were to leave it up to some commanders, half the Army would be chaptered and you'd only have a few strong people left in a squad to do the work of ten people.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2022 8:56 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Nov 2022 08:56:10 -0500

I've been out for a long time and know that units in the Army at times do stupid things until they get slapped down. Seems like this unit needs a Gibbs slap upside the head.

Response by AA James Konkel made Nov 10 at 2022 9:35 AM

AA James Konkel — Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:35:47 -0500

Response by SSG John Naquin made Nov 10 at 2022 9:58 AM

SSG John Naquin — Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:58:06 -0500

This might seem a little harsh, but how can a soldier who has been on station for a year not do 4 miles in 36 minutes but yet passes everything else? Ok said soldier has issues running, is said soldier doing anything to help themself such as going running or doing sprints off duty to better themselves? While at Fort Campbell, running is apart of being in the "light" Army. If command want to flag or do any negative actions there is probably underlining reasoning.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2022 11:08 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Nov 2022 11:08:04 -0500

Stuff like this reminds me how some company grade leaders haven't distanced themselves from TRADOC incentive tactics when interacting with Jr soldiers.

What I'm getting at is Drill SGT's and BCT/AIT and overall TRADOC Cadre make a lot of stuff up. It's part of the game. They know how far they can take things, but it doesn't stop them from playing with those that are new and oblivious to how the army functions.

Off topic........ I have a young cousin in the Army and she has things going on around her and things are being said that worry her. I told her at the end of the day if you are not sitting in an office with the Commanding Officer or you BN CO and all you're being told is stuff from NCO's then there's nothing to really worry about. Oh they can make your life hell, but individually they cannot take rank, they cannot take money, they cannot kick you out.

So where I'm going with this is your PSG was the source of information. So there might need to be some validation of the veracity of the information. This conversation seems to be ripping on the command team but there's just as much of a chance they are not seriously working their angle to execute such a policy. Let's say the CO did have such an idea and this is all based on the PSG hearing him talking with the 1SG.

Chances are the Company Level S1 is going to at least mention, hummm.......... Sir, the flag/bar form you have to sign doesn't have a justification that can be documented supporting it into the system. He'll chat with other NCOs and Company leadership and have to discuss among themselves how far they want to take this.

Meanwhile the rumor is started, and never executed.

I'm still personally waiting for my Article 15 from my Drill SGT because I didn't put my head gear on the moment I crossed the doorway while both my hands were full. At the time even, I thought it was something he legitimately could do. The only 15's given out while I was in BCT was to a pair that were caught with their phones and it took FOREVER to run it's course.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Nov 11 at 2022 1:20 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 11 Nov 2022 13:20:29 -0500

If you can't meet the standards of your unit, then don't expect anything good to come. They can't flag you, but they can reflect the failure for promotions, awards, etc. Hell, I have seen in my day when folks were transferred out of the unit/Post because of it. Many units have higher standards than the Army- Army has low bars to meet, that's why all test have a system built in to show overachievers. Expect much flak form your entire chain on the SM and in some respects on yourself.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Nov 11 at 2022 3:40 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Fri, 11 Nov 2022 15:40:21 -0500

No. They can provide motivation and encouragement. They can ask you if you would like assistance in getting your self to unit standards. No!

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Nov 12 at 2022 9:39 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sat, 12 Nov 2022 09:39:28 -0500

SGT Private RallyPoint Member "considering flagging "
They can consider anything, but doing it is another deal altogether.
"barring individuals"
Its pretty cut and dried, but it also is not.
AR 601-280, chapter 8-4 establishes criteria for a commander initiating a bar to continued service
https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN31058-AR_601-280-000-WEB-1.pdf
Some of the examples provided as valid criteria can be applied to a soldier who in the commander's opinion is failing.
And the end of the day, it is the opinion of the commander for many of the allowable bar criteria that matter.
That said there is always a higher level of commander that can disagree with some company commander that uses Criteria 8–4, d, 20 Is noncompetitive for promotion, (e) Not recommended for promotion by unit commander or (f) Lacks potential to become a supervisor all because the SM fails to train sufficiently to be able to run 4 miles in 36 minutes

ARN31058-AR_601-280-000-WEB-1.pdf

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2022 9:45 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Nov 2022 21:45:30 -0500

Sounds like frustration from the command team, empty threats. The 4x36 here at Campbell is not an Army standard. Nothing punitive can come from it, I wouldn't sweat it.

I am going to branch off from your original topic but indulge me. Sometimes, this is where I think "NCO business" comes into play. What I mean by that is, keep building your counseling packet on your Joe, keep working this out with your PSG and your peer group as needed, but tell your Joe nothing but to focus on the 4x36 and that you'll handle everything else. I remember how little I knew about what actually went on in the Army as a private, but I'll be damned if I didn't know my job. Once I held leadership positions, I could see in hindsight how my NCOs witheld info from me because they were doing their job and wanted me to focus on something else, not get caught up in the other stuff. I think this happens in different ways at every level, all the way to the top. So, part of it is keeping your Joe's focused and you doing the foundational work to prepare them for success, and the other part is listening to higher but also staying focused yourself.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2022 11:14 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Nov 2022 23:14:01 -0500

It’s an 18th airborne corps standard not just 101st, unsure but the best way to find out is just ask your units paralegal.

Response by SFC Terry Faust made Nov 20 at 2022 5:10 PM

SFC Terry Faust — Sun, 20 Nov 2022 17:10:43 -0500

Bad leadership if they want to punish a Soldier for that. Give them a chance to get to that point. As an NCO are job is to Teach, Coach, and Mentor.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Dec 3 at 2022 5:06 PM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Sat, 03 Dec 2022 17:06:17 -0500

SFC Private RallyPoint Member already hit the nail on the head.

But... if the Soldier has been at Campbell for over a year, why can he still not pass the 4 mile? 9 minute mile is not that fast at all. It is the unofficial standard Army-wide for unit cohesion runs. For a younger Soldier this *should* be a breeze.

This sounds a lot like either he needs to go see medical, he is not getting the proper physical training, or he is not motivated. Either way, at this point it is a leadership issue.

A slow Soldier just isn't going to thrive in the 101 - or anywhere in the 18th Airborne. And, as COL Randall C. pointed out, even without officially punishing a Soldier, there are plenty of rewards that will never be doled out to this guy if he can't hang on a 4 miler.

Response by PO2 Mike Vignapiano made Dec 12 at 2022 1:14 PM

PO2 Mike Vignapiano — Mon, 12 Dec 2022 13:14:21 -0500

Only substandard by military standards, not standards set by any command or commander, can punish someone that can affect their career. Anything put in their record is local & cannot follow on to the next command

Response by 1SG Dean Mcbride (MPER) (CPHR) made Jan 8 at 2023 1:55 PM

1SG Dean Mcbride (MPER) (CPHR) — Sun, 08 Jan 2023 13:55:57 -0500

I have to admit -- I can't do a 4x36... However, I am 4 months shy of 80 years old. Even though I can't do a 4x36 at this moment in time, I am still in fairly decent physical condition. Give me a year to work on it and a 4x36 would be doable! Main point of this is: Baring a physical disability, any soldier should be able to accomplish a 4x36 after a year of working on it. As everyone else advised, you can't be "punished" for not passing a division standard. What you should be worried about is "why" can't you accomplish this reasonable standard... "Trouble Running" is not a reasonable reason for inability -- keeping working on it or seek some sort of medical dispensation!

Response by 1SG Timothy Trewin made Jan 9 at 2023 2:33 PM

1SG Timothy Trewin — Mon, 09 Jan 2023 14:33:57 -0500

I was stationed at Campbell from 2014-2017 and there were multiple division standards that they had. There was the 4x36 (our BN upped their game and made their standard 4x32), 12 mile ruck in 3 hours, and every person in a leadership position being Air Assault qualified. I knew many people who could either meet any combo of those (but not all) or none of the above. While there was all sorts of pressure on leadership to fix that, no one that I am aware of was ever barred or flagged for it.

People can’t be flagged for failing to meet a unit standard, only an Army standard that has been defined as something to flag over. Now there is a ton of leeway for Bars, but even then a CDR needs to be careful on how that’s applied.

Response by SFC Erin Barnett made Feb 28 at 2023 12:22 PM

SFC Erin Barnett — Tue, 28 Feb 2023 12:22:56 -0500

Can they do something, yes, can they bar/flag, I don't think so. They could force the individual into some sort of remedial training until he meets unit standards. They could also force a transfer from the unit if someone doesn't meet the standards.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Mar 5 at 2023 10:43 AM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Sun, 05 Mar 2023 10:43:01 -0500

Please Allow Me To Make A Suggestion,
Don't Screw With The Upper Brass Too Much.
If You Squeeze Through Regulations & Piss Them Off,
They'll Just Return with More, Until They Win & You REALLY Lose.
They Have More Time And More People To Make Your Life Miserable,
Than You Do With Theirs....

Response by Sgt Bob Corridan made Mar 6 at 2023 1:30 PM

Sgt Bob Corridan — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 13:30:54 -0500

I was in reasonable shape after returning from my first trip to Nam and within 2 months had a fitness test and I played hell trying to complete a 3 mile run at El Toro in 27 minutes....I doubt seriously I could have completed 4 in 36....fortunately I had a fellow Sgt who set the pace for me and I simply stayed on his ass...without his assistance I most likely would not have completed the 3 in 27 successfully.

Response by SN Russell Helberg made Mar 7 at 2023 1:25 AM

SN Russell Helberg — Tue, 07 Mar 2023 01:25:09 -0500

you need a J.A.G. in your conner one that has a good record of WINNING--ruszs

Response by SGM Edward Sullivan made Mar 7 at 2023 3:30 PM

SGM Edward Sullivan — Tue, 07 Mar 2023 15:30:26 -0500

I was with the 101st for 5 years, although I never had a problem ever with that 4/36 Division Standard some of my soldiers did. Although the Command threatened punishment they would NEVER get JAGs authorization. As long as a soldier meets ARMY Standards there is NOTHING that a Command can do after artificially inflating those Standards. They can yell and holler all they want but those artificial standards are just that, artificial!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2023 3:40 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Mar 2023 15:40:14 -0500

Talk to JAG. The nice thing about JAG is they don't answer to unit or post command. We all answer to paragraph and line regardless of rank or position, up to and including the President.
It wouldn't hurt to talk to your congressional representatives either. Few things make military leadership more nervous then congressional scrutiny.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2023 9:36 PM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Mar 2023 21:36:45 -0500

So if you get deployed to a combat zone and your soldier can’t keep up during an attack what will you do for your soldier? You can’t help him unless you want to carry him? Just a thought.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2023 4:34 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:34:05 -0400

Simple fix... Everyone that failed needs to immediately "Self-Identify" as a LGBTQO++, Pregnant, Person of Color! In the current Command/Political climate I guarantee they'll be too petrified to punish any of you and it's quite possible you all might just get promoted!

Response by SPC Damon Hairston made Mar 12 at 2023 9:35 PM

SPC Damon Hairston — Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:35:07 -0400

Unfortunately, there is an Army standard, then the 101st. I was told the exact same thing over 25 years ago. We had a guy that was Samoan,, the 1SG didn't like him because of how he looked in a uniform. He was a big guy and passed EVERY Army standard, unit standard and APFT as an 11B. It was sad. He was chaptered out because of his size and military presence.

Response by MSG Bob S made May 6 at 2023 6:31 PM

MSG Bob S — Sat, 06 May 2023 18:31:18 -0400

Hey SGT… here’s my humble opinion on this matter. 4x36 is only the 101st standard and nothing negative can come from this. However with as much as running that the units do at the 101st how can you soldier not pass the 4x36?

Response by SSG Don Maggart made May 11 at 2023 8:51 AM

SSG Don Maggart — Thu, 11 May 2023 08:51:17 -0400

Y'all done went Fort Polk STUPID

Response by SSG Don Maggart made May 11 at 2023 8:52 AM

SSG Don Maggart — Thu, 11 May 2023 08:52:04 -0400

And None Fired a Round

Response by Sgt Tee Organ made May 11 at 2023 4:30 PM

Sgt Tee Organ — Thu, 11 May 2023 16:30:02 -0400

First, what type of action are you saying is meant to punish? Docking pay, confinement to quarters, loss of rank, imprisonment are forms of punishment. Not sure about flagging/barring though. Sounds like the system is putting the individual on notice to shape up. Second, failure to meet standards after an honest effort is given is grounds for termination. As part of the servicemember's employment contract they have an obligation to maintain standards. If they cannot do this they are not retainable, regardless of personal effort or physical limitations. Quite honestly that's the rule anywhere you go, but for the military it is always a bit more stringent, and with good reason. Mission statements aside, lives are at stake! I'm thinking the flagging/barring process is the commands attempt at affording this individual the time to give that honest effort, albeit under documentation. It's up to that person then to use that opportunity wisely. Now if they are and still don't meet that standard there's definitely a problem. Third. when you say the Army's standard is different that the base standard, certainly the argument can be made that the base is being unrealistic in its expectations. But considering, are that that unattainable after all, you only mention one Soldier out of how many others then who have attained this standard? Could it be that the Army's standard is a basic goal, and the base's standard is set to ensure it's mission can be met, and must be set to a more stringent level? Ft Campbell is an infantry base right? So it should stand to reason then, the expectation of standard makes sense because as I stated earlier, lives are at stake here. Last then, what will be the final step here if this soldier fails to meet that standard? Will they be ineligible for their expected mission role, and be re assigned? Or are we talking full discharge? I think it's right to work with that Soldier to bring up their fitness level, but you also have to look beyond the immediate too... At any rate I don't see a punishment here unless I'm just not understanding how the whole flagging/barring thing works. I understand the Army has a basic standard here, but a unit can be more stringent than a source regulation, provided that standard doesn't fall within hazing or torture. I don't think that's what you are arguing here. At this point, the standard has to be in place to ensure unit readiness. As a Drill Instructor I continually reminded my recruits that what they are doing now is only enough to get you in the door, what you do after, you may find even harder at times. This is one of those times, sounds like.

Response by MSG Chuck Farley made May 12 at 2023 9:30 AM

MSG Chuck Farley — Fri, 12 May 2023 09:30:58 -0400

If after a year a soldier cannot run a 9 minute mile you have bigger problems. If there is a medial issue get a waiver. Personally I applaud any unit that maintains a higher standard, the Army standard is a bare minimum and if your in a combat deployable unit do you really want to go with soldiers who can only do the bare minimum after a year?? Might want to see if they can transfer to a less strenuous MOS or unit.

Response by SSG Don Maggart made May 12 at 2023 10:48 AM

SSG Don Maggart — Fri, 12 May 2023 10:48:04 -0400

Why aren't you Running with Them with a Sandbag in Your Ruck?

Response by SSG Don Maggart made May 12 at 2023 10:49 AM

SSG Don Maggart — Fri, 12 May 2023 10:49:00 -0400

Easy to Bitch (Discipline)

Response by SSG Don Maggart made May 12 at 2023 10:49 AM

SSG Don Maggart — Fri, 12 May 2023 10:49:42 -0400

Walk thier MILE...

Response by 1SG John Highfill made May 14 at 2023 11:52 AM

1SG John Highfill — Sun, 14 May 2023 11:52:09 -0400

That’s not the standard

Response by SSG Douglas Shaffer made Aug 2 at 2023 12:51 AM

SSG Douglas Shaffer — Wed, 02 Aug 2023 00:51:21 -0400

First off, you're being a good NCO helping your soldier to overcome a unit standard short coming. many Sergeants would just go along with the command. So long as he passes the 2-mile run on the PT Test the unit is out of luck there. You can't bar someone who hasn't failed the Army's standard. Instead of training him to run the 4/36 train him to run just 5 or six miles at his pace, to build his stamina. I had trouble running it too when I was there, so I just train to run longer miles to build my stamina. I would run 6 miles at the highest pace I could run. So, when it came to running the 4/36, I had the power to do so. I am a slow runner it takes me about 2 miles just to warm up and the last to just to keep pace. however, I found that running those extra miles helped me. Sure, it still took me those first 2 miles to warm up but then my second wind would kick in an then I could run around the Battalion. Just keep up the good work if there is a standard it is our job to beat it even if we have to work harder to do it. I burned a lot of midnight oil training myself and training any of my soldier in their short comings even if it meant after hours and weekends that is what NCOs do.