Fighting Against the Movies: Not Everyone Pulls Triggers

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 11:13:05 -0500

Recently, I have found myself having long conversations with civilians about the military. I am a full time student at a private university in Kansas and much of the faculty and student body has never even thought about joining the military. It isn’t anything strange; this is to be expected at such a small school and the fact that the military makes up less than 1% of the population of the country. What is interesting is that many of them have only the movies to go off of when forming their view of what everyone does in the military. Sadly, making movies about productive supply sergeants and personnel clerks doesn’t really make people line up outside of the theaters. Many civilians, in my experience, have this idea in their head that every single member of the military is out on the battlefield, kicking in doors and getting shot at or blown up. Those of us who have spent any amount of time in the military knows that this is far from the reality of the military. Perhaps this is where recruiting takes the biggest hit.

I spoke to a professor of mine who is going through a point in her life where she is trying to make a transition from her current position to a new one. As she was looking through openings at different universities across the country to put in a packet for the position, I made a joke about how she should just go and commission in the Air Force or something. Don’t get me wrong, I loved being in the Army, but I also know the kind of people that would be able to be successful in the Army and she is far more suited for the Air Force. She actually took the comment seriously. The money as an officer is more than she is making now. The opportunity for advancement is obviously there. The only real concern that she had was that she didn’t want to find herself in Iraq or Afghanistan in a year, getting shot at and blown up. I couldn’t help but to laugh.

I began to explain how the military is made up of many occupations that have almost nothing to do with direct combat. This was new information for her. As I began to name off occupations like public affairs, logistics, intelligence, and clerical her eyes went wide. I tried to break it down in the easiest way that I could by telling her that you can think of the military as a microcosm for the country. We know that the military makes up less than 1% of the population in the United States and in almost an exact, similar fashion, those who work as combat arms occupations (such as infantry, tankers, and cavalry) make up about 1% of the military. I went on to break down the military into the three categories that we all know and love: combat, combat-support, and support. I finished up by explaining that, if she chose a certain occupation, the chances of her being involved in direct combat were slim to none. I will follow that statement up by saying that I did tell her that there is always the possibility and that there are still non-combat service members that are injured or killed in combat.

This entire conversation made me wonder if this woman’s view of the military, where everyone is running around with fully automatic rifles, night vision goggles, going in under the cover of night and wrecking shop, is really what the rest of the country thinks is all that is done. They don’t know what goes on behind the scenes; they don’t know what goes into conducting a single mission long before the first HMMWV rolls out of the FOB. After this thought, I began to wonder if this is why many people don’t give military service a single thought.

Next, I wondered if this same idea is why we have so many guys, or gals, who leave the military honorably after serving in a support role and decide to go out and say that they were Delta Force Seal Special Ranger Snipers or whatever the kids are saying these days. Are all of the recent military movies that glorify only that small percentage to blame for these issues? When we really begin to think about it, if combat arms is such a small population within our military, just how small is the population that works as a member of these special groups? It is tiny.

I do not know what the remedy for this issue is. I do not think that there should be a ban on military movies glorifying heroism and bravery under fire, even if I do find that many of the movies are awful. What is there that can be done though? Is there any way that we can properly educate citizens on what makes up the military? How can we also get it through the minds of our people that get out after serving that there is no need to act like something that you were not?

The military takes all kinds. It is a giant machine that requires numerous moving parts. If one part fails, every cog in the machine grinds to a halt or, at a minimum, does not function nearly as well as it needs to.

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Dec 8 at 2017 11:24 AM

LT Brad McInnis — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 11:24:58 -0500

My 2 cents - the people that make up crap about their service are going to do it regardless of what movies or whatever is out there. It is a part of THEIR makeup. As far as educating civvies, I don't worry about it. They can think what they want as long as they don't denigrate my brothers and sisters in arms. If they want to learn more, I am happy to tell them.

Response by SGT Philip Roncari made Dec 8 at 2017 11:29 AM

SGT Philip Roncari — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 11:29:31 -0500

Those are my thoughts exactly or should I say the same perceptions of the Military I faced over fifty years ago after my time in,granted it was a different mind set then,but basically what you have posted thank you and good luck with college.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Dec 8 at 2017 11:51 AM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 11:51:17 -0500

Seems also if a civilian that has no military background finds I was in the Air Force, they first question they ask is " were You a pilot ?" They are amazed when I tell them very few are, there are over 350 other occupations. When they find out a Military post or Base is like a city and has all the functions of a city, Police Fire, medical, public works functions, shopping, family housing etc and how large an area and how many square miles some bases cover they had no concept at all.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2017 12:17 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:17:10 -0500

I do not know if there really is a way to educate all of the public about what the military entails. I frequently get asked when I meet someone new and they find out I am a retired Marine, "Did you ever kill anyone?" I explain I was an avionics technician and that leads to them asking what that is which in turn leads to me explaining I worked on aircraft which leads to them proclaiming they never even knew the Marine Corps had aircraft.

A year or two ago at work I was in a meeting with a Lieutenant Governor of one of the US's Pacific territories, that will soon be home to troops that are currently stationed in Okinawa, and afterwards he was talking about how the Navy only had aircraft carriers so the Air Force could have a place to fly their planes from. I had to explain that aircraft carriers have US Navy and Marine Corps aircraft on them not Air Force ones and that ended our conversation. If you can't even depend on politicians who's jurisdiction depend on the US military to understand the makeup of the military, can you really expect civilians who have very little if any contact with the military to understand us?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2017 1:20 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 13:20:26 -0500

Hell I don't have much to complain about even the JAG Corps got some movies. Not necessarily the Army but when you have A Few Good Men (Navy & Marines) and Rules of Engagement (Marines) at least we have some representation. Then of course the TV Series JAG (Navy) is way sexier than the actual JAG Corps.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Dec 8 at 2017 2:55 PM

Col Joseph Lenertz — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 14:55:10 -0500

SGT Joseph Gunderson Thank you for the great share. I have had similar experiences when I lived in a very non-military area. The lesson you and I and all of us vets need to take from it is, you are VITAL. You are vital to sharing real-world experience about the actual military (not Hollywood military) and the real world beyond the bounds of their home towns. Your breadth of experience gives you a perspective that you need to share with these civilians. We vets have a rare understanding of WHY we love America, because we have experienced alternatives in other parts of the world. And not the vacation hot-spots.

Response by SMSgt Thor Merich made Dec 9 at 2017 11:04 AM

SMSgt Thor Merich — Sat, 09 Dec 2017 11:04:38 -0500

Great share

Response by SFC Russell Shaw made Dec 9 at 2017 2:58 PM

SFC Russell Shaw — Sat, 09 Dec 2017 14:58:17 -0500

We can be in contact with thousands maybe even millions of people. Let people know what you do and how the military is structured to be very self sufficient which means it has the personnel and jobs associated so that it really does not need any civilian intervention
. Not sure what the numbers are but for the military in special units there just as many who help to train, supply and feed them to prepare them for their jobs. We also have the equivalent jobs in many ways. Mechanics, electricians, clerks, medical has a huge staff, air traffic controllers, air craft mechanics, truck drivers, mail clerks, psychologist, supply, and so much more. The military is like it's own community and is served by people in all these different areas of expertise.

Response by Capt Sabrena Goldman made Dec 9 at 2017 9:40 PM

Capt Sabrena Goldman — Sat, 09 Dec 2017 21:40:49 -0500

So true! Thanks for sharing.

One of the nurses I work with had the strangest ideas of a nurse in the USAF and she works with me at a maximum security prison with me. I said your personality and resiliance lends itself to at least one look. She was excited and has been persistently asking me more questions.

Response by PO2 Scott Fahsbender made Dec 10 at 2017 9:31 PM

PO2 Scott Fahsbender — Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:31:05 -0500

The other reality is that civilians assume most ex-military joined because they couldn’t cut it in college. I work at a nuclear power plant, so when I meet college grads at work, a lot of them are surprised when they find out I’m a veteran and don’t have a degree. They don’t believe that ex-military non-college people could possibly be smart enough to succeed in the nuclear industry. When they find out close to 75% of the workforce at my plant are veterans, they’re even more surprised.

Response by CSM Christopher St. Cyr made Dec 10 at 2017 9:43 PM

CSM Christopher St. Cyr — Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:43:16 -0500

And everything you said is what make it difficult for veterans to get jobs in the civilian sector. They have no idea what we do or can do, but we also need to learn to speak like the 99% of the population not in the military. Learning to translate Troop Leading Procedures into project management terms make one a more attractive hire.

Response by COL John McClellan made Dec 11 at 2017 9:33 AM

COL John McClellan — Mon, 11 Dec 2017 09:33:11 -0500

Good post, thanks SGT Gunderson. I use tp have a similar conversation with parents, faculty and, students, when serving as a Professor of Military Science on a college campus. It's amazing what our citizens don't know about our Army / the military! Best thing we can do, as you did, is set them straight!!

Response by SPC Robert Coventry made Dec 12 at 2017 2:11 AM

SPC Robert Coventry — Tue, 12 Dec 2017 02:11:21 -0500

Isn't every Marine a rifleman?

Response by SMSgt Sheila Berg made Dec 12 at 2017 9:20 PM

SMSgt Sheila Berg — Tue, 12 Dec 2017 21:20:18 -0500

You make a good point. When I mentioned serving in the Military, people are generally surprised. I didn't serve in combat. Immediately I get the" OH" look. Civilian do not understand that support positions are very important. True the Movies give Civilians the idea that only Combat personnel are heroes. By doing our job we make them "look good". Sometimes explanations should be simple because of their limited knowledge. If they ask additional questions answer them. Most are idle curiosity once its settled that's it. Don't feel bad.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2017 10:50 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Dec 2017 22:50:30 -0500

Funny, I was just having this discussion with one of my battles that the majority of the Army is to support Infantry and combat MOS's but, by and large the military is a machine to get personnel and equipment trained and from point A to the battlefield. Its very rare a non-combat MOS will be in a war zone and be engaged in an actual firefight. My hats off to the brave Soldiers who encounter that on a semi-regular basis but, I knew what I signed up for and what I was expecting, my recruiter was pretty honest.

I hope we do see more support for doing regular jobs that civilians might do but, in a tactical or strategic manner to support a combat situation.

Response by PO3 David Greeley made Dec 18 at 2017 10:07 AM

PO3 David Greeley — Mon, 18 Dec 2017 10:07:49 -0500

We have the mainstream media to thank for the skewed perception that our fellow citizens have of the military, even when it comes to our own families. As a former hospital corpsman, I served with Navy and Marine commands which has led to the question when someone who knows me who has seen me wearing cammies and says, "I thought you were in the Navy and worked in hospitals."

I agree with SSGT Dickey who said, "I do not know if there really is a way to educate all of the public about what the military entails." With the increased use of irregular warfare in today's missions its even harder for the public to comprehend the logistical support structure that supports it all.

I get particularly get annoyed of inaccurate portrayals of the military and its personnel in the news and in the movies. I doubt they will ever get it.

Response by SPC David Willis made Dec 18 at 2017 11:06 AM

SPC David Willis — Mon, 18 Dec 2017 11:06:54 -0500

I find many within the military have these misconceptions as well. Many non combat arms folks think combat arms guys just go out and shoot people for a few hours every day, and many combat arms soldiers think non-combat arms guys sit around and play xbox and drink tea all day. Even worse when it comes to different branches of the military.

Response by TSgt Jennifer Disch made Dec 18 at 2017 11:47 AM

TSgt Jennifer Disch — Mon, 18 Dec 2017 11:47:42 -0500

Same here. When I say I retired from the Air Force I get asked if I flew a plane or I’m treated like I was in some elite secret society.

Response by LCDR Robert S. made Dec 18 at 2017 9:36 PM

LCDR Robert S. — Mon, 18 Dec 2017 21:36:49 -0500

I spent 5 years enlisted before I went to college on an NROTC scholarship in 1990. Because the Gulf War was just kicking off, and everybody in my dorm knew I was military, I got some of the most off-the-wall questions. Most of them weren't the sort of thing that a Navy Electronics Technician would know, except that I did a lot of reading and did know some of them.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Dec 18 at 2017 10:02 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Mon, 18 Dec 2017 22:02:40 -0500

SGT Joseph Gunderson Fellow Jayhawk, Actually I had one of the "Cool" Jobs, Nope Not a Seal, Not Special Forces, I'm a Retired Navy Spook but I needed a Lot of "Support" People to Get Me where I had to Go and Make Sure I had all the Tools in Good Repair to do what I Had To Do. I don't Know How to Operate a Damn Thing in Engineering and thanks to the "Snipes" (Engineers) I could Sit Off Iran and Listen to Them. The Mess Specialist that Fed Me Real Good. The Mat Cranks to Fix the Equipment I Busted. Supply Clerks to Make Sure I had Spares for About Everything. For Every Soldier, Sailor, Airman, Marine, Doing the "Cool" Jobs there is a Bunch of Support Folks that Allow Us to Do It and Make Sure that we Can with No Interference! I am Grateful for those Folks!

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Dec 19 at 2017 2:48 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Tue, 19 Dec 2017 14:48:12 -0500

But who is going to pay to watch you burn shit

Response by LCpl Emanuel W. made Dec 20 at 2017 12:13 PM

LCpl Emanuel W. — Wed, 20 Dec 2017 12:13:02 -0500

I think we as a People, not just civilian, veteran or serviceman/woman, should strive to learn about each branch of the military and teach others about their branch and what they do or have done. I was in the least glamorous MOS within the Marine Corps. I was a Fabric Repair Specialist, 1181. Even though is was considered Utilities, we were still picked on by the others within the Utilities field. (That was until their tent leaked in the field).
We weren't the "Tailors of the Corps" because we were not trained on how to work on uniforms, nor were we authorized. We were only authorized to sew name tapes onto the camouflage uniforms. Alterations and the like on dress/service uniforms got us in trouble if we tried.
Our school was located at Ft. Lee, VA. We trained with Army. From February, 1995 to March 1998, I thought that only Army and Marines had this MOS. Until a (very pretty) Senior Airman walked into our shop asking for our assistance in Okinawa. She was wondering how we got by with the limited supplies for our shop after she got there. They had the same type of wait for supplies as we did when it came to ordering. The only reason we were getting by was the fact that there was a welding shop in our maintenance bay, with a grinding wheel. Our needles were re-sharpened due to the 3 month waiting period for new supplies.
After the SA left, we looked at each other and wondered if the Navy has a Fabric Repair MOS, or do they just contract that out?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2017 12:21 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Dec 2017 12:21:00 -0500

Maybe someone needs to make a documentary about it and put it on the Discovery Channel or PBS or something.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Dec 20 at 2017 3:58 PM

Cpl Jeff N. — Wed, 20 Dec 2017 15:58:57 -0500

We tend to call anyone that dons a uniform a warrior these days and contribute to the myth. Most in the military are not in combat arms MOS's and the likelihood of them seeing or hearing a shot fired is remote. That doesn't mean their job is not important but they are not warriors in the traditional definition of the word.

This notion that everyone in the military is running and gunning is also in the media. They treat every homecoming as though the person coming home was in combat. I see these massive greetings for people that are coming home from boot camp or from being overseas not in combat.

Response by SGT Stephen Jaffe made Dec 20 at 2017 10:47 PM

SGT Stephen Jaffe — Wed, 20 Dec 2017 22:47:37 -0500

I suppose no one would go see a movie without any action in it. People like to imagine themselves as a fighter pilot, special forces operator, or marine. It would be kind of hard to make a movie featuring personnel clerks and comm center operators. But one thing is for sure. It doesn't make any difference what your mos is, you could wind up in a combat zone.

Response by CW4 Brian Haas made Dec 22 at 2017 5:06 PM

CW4 Brian Haas — Fri, 22 Dec 2017 17:06:50 -0500

Wait wait wait, you mean everyone is NOT a SEAL or SpecOps!? Noooo!! It can’t be true!!

Response by SFC Greg Bruorton made Dec 22 at 2017 5:29 PM

SFC Greg Bruorton — Fri, 22 Dec 2017 17:29:27 -0500

Well illustrated and written! I hadn't thought on that perspective, but you're right--hence the many examples of stolen valor by nut cases. Your elaboration with the professor may be one-on-one, but it is a strong example of getting our message out to the minions about military life. Consider making copies of your narrative and have one ready for the next potential member of the military.

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Dec 22 at 2017 6:46 PM

Sgt Wayne Wood — Fri, 22 Dec 2017 18:46:50 -0500

I gave up on the whole explanation thing. Just don’t engage. Nothing on my resume says veteran. Trying to explain military to civilians is like explaining a rainbow to a blind person.

Why beat your head against that wall? Nothing to be gained. Just be you. The military is part of your identity, but it isn’t ALL of your identity.

Response by SCPO Morris Ramsey made Dec 22 at 2017 7:59 PM

SCPO Morris Ramsey — Fri, 22 Dec 2017 19:59:41 -0500

SGT Joseph Gunderson Great post and super discussion points.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Dec 22 at 2017 9:32 PM

SPC Erich Guenther — Fri, 22 Dec 2017 21:32:21 -0500

I agree but to be honest SGT Gunderson there are some Veterans that believe bunk as well because they served in Army units that did basically nothing after the Berlin Wall fell or just prior to it. I run into them all the time online and if I hear the phrase one more time "In the Cold War all we did was drink beer and play cards".... I think I am going to really going to lose it and be an azz to that future poster. Yes, that was the focus of some units in the Army back then BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. Everyones service is different and back then the Army units were radically different between each unit. Some units sucked and basically did nothing others took their mission seriously and had to because they were with Airborne Corps. It's bad to generalize if your a Vet or a Civilian. I counted 4 overseas BN level deployments the 101st made while I was assigned to that unit in the 1980's in a approx 18 month period. My unit only did one to Honduras but the other units were flying to the Middle East, Panama, and Korea. In addition to the EDRE drills as well as the regular field training, etc. It fell short of the rapid OPTEMPO and "everybody goes" methods of the GWOT (no argument there) but it wasn't a unit that did nothing. Niether was the 82nd Airborne, or some of the units in Korea.

Response by SGT Stephen Jaffe made Dec 23 at 2017 1:06 AM

SGT Stephen Jaffe — Sat, 23 Dec 2017 01:06:39 -0500

When I was in 'Nam, we couldn't wear our Army Security Agency shoulder patch. We wore the MACV patch. One thing we were told was that NVA and VC knew who we were. If we were captured, we were gone for good. The Russians were very interested in us which I figured that meant that we were going to be sent way north. Most of us didn't have rifles all of the time. When we did; they were M14s. I never was trained on an M16. I saw a Green Beret carrying one. I thought it was a funny looking weapon.

Response by Cpl Bill Johnson made Dec 23 at 2017 7:58 AM

Cpl Bill Johnson — Sat, 23 Dec 2017 07:58:40 -0500

The other side of this is when a civilian finds out that you are a veteran they ask: "oh! What kind of job training did you get?" I tell them that I learned how to shoot so I could kill people. Then I learned how to use heavy.machineguns so I could kill more people, faster. I got strong and learned endurance so I could jump my ruck and fight at the same time. I learned how to use a map so I could find the.enemy and kill him. I learned how to use a.map and radio to call for air or artillery, so the enemy would be killed in large batches. I learned how to execute ambushes, so I could kill the enemy by surprise. I learned how to use a bayonet so I could kill the enemy with what amounts to a spear.

When people hear this sort of thing, it freaks them out a bit. This is when I explain to them that what I just described is the heart and soul of the ar.ed forces. Killing people. Nothing else. Anyone who tells you otherwise is running for office, trying to get a promotion, or arites fiction.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Dec 23 at 2017 12:27 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Sat, 23 Dec 2017 12:27:22 -0500

Some pull Lanyards

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2017 5:05 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Dec 2017 17:05:57 -0500

There are a lot of elements of this story, as told by a self-proclaimed writer, that I find hard to believe. In fact, I think it is entirely a work of fiction.

Response by MSG David Johnson made Dec 23 at 2017 10:28 PM

MSG David Johnson — Sat, 23 Dec 2017 22:28:47 -0500

Very well said, maybe you should be a recruiter. Haha, just kidding, you would hate the job, it's easier, and more fun just to talk and answer people's questions about the military. If you had to fill quotas it would get too stressful, but it sounds as if you enjoy educating civilians about what the military is actually about.

Response by PO3 Michael James made Dec 24 at 2017 4:22 PM

PO3 Michael James — Sun, 24 Dec 2017 16:22:05 -0500

Yes, ... Vietnam, they would never be able to show base fire trucks on the tarmac pressure spraying water into C130's to remove the pools of blood from the wounded or deceased servicemen, so the aircraft could then be considered "sterilized" and Safe (?) Ready to transport more personnel/supplies back into Nam.. What of the Evacs related to the Tet Offensive.. What of the Army ... the 7th Cavalry ... The USS Repose, The USS Sanctuary.. Show the TRUE Neglect of the Vietnam Veterans, the suffering, the denials, the diseases caused by exposure directly/indirectly with A/O.. Show these spirited young men who served their country, With HONOR, and for those who returned home only to have promises made to them be denied !! To have to face YEARS of lies and neglect... suffering and abandonment.. This is our Government, they are on our side !! **MAYBE** 45-50 + YEARS of Abuse, Neglect .. and abandonment.. THIS is... ABOVE AND BEYOND THE CALL OF DUTY !! Instead of constant lying, order the Government to release ALL the (still classified) Vietnam files so the entire country can see the total truths of the Vietnam War, the experiments, the sick treatment our Veterans had to endure... and start to lead this country BY EXAMPLE not B.S.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Dec 26 at 2017 1:21 PM

SFC Jim Ruether — Tue, 26 Dec 2017 13:21:38 -0500

Thanks for your Service Capt. Goldman and your great advice to someone who evidently didn't know anyting about the military or had preconceived notions herself.

Response by SSgt Liam Babington made Dec 31 at 2017 8:52 PM

SSgt Liam Babington — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 20:52:21 -0500

So...did the Professor follow up on the discussion? She could go become a Missile Officer they NEVER go overseas!!

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Jan 5 at 2018 4:11 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Fri, 05 Jan 2018 16:11:28 -0500

You can rain down a lot of death without firing a rifle. A B-52 pilot could kill a lot of enemy without actually meeting them. Artillery, mortars, you name it. Even a Ninja Sword

Response by CPL Chris Palmberg made Jan 8 at 2018 11:36 AM

CPL Chris Palmberg — Mon, 08 Jan 2018 11:36:04 -0500

The thing I find most amusing about the disparity between uninitiated civilians and veterans is the confusion that ensues due to the similarity in verbiage with absolutely zero equality... a buddy went in to start a job working for a major appliance manufacturer. When they heard he was an Army combat engineer, they put him in a supervisory role overseeing newly graduated mechanical engineers... here's this guy with a HS diploma and a couple of tours in Iraq whose sole background in the field is an R&U class between deployments running a team of college graduate engineers whose job is to troubleshoot and refurbish major household appliances... I can't do justice to the hilarity of the story as her tells it.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2018 6:15 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Jan 2018 18:15:31 -0500

The antidote to this, and in my thoughts and study the only antidote, would be to do something that not much of anyone - military or civilian - would have the palate for, and that's to undo the all-volunteer force and go back to conscription.

If you think about it, it wasn't that long ago that we had something pretty close to universal military service, at least for able-bodied men. Elvis Presley was drafted. He was drafted after he was famous. He did his duty in the Army. He didn't ask for or get any special treatment. This was the king here, folks. This was just a couple of generations ago. And, before we completely undid the draft in 1978, we really had never had a truly all-volunteer force, at least not under our current constitutional government. There had always been, as long as there was a standing army, some form or fashion of compulsory service, and it was generally accepted by the population that this was the natural and normal way of things; that military service, by those who were capable at the time, was simply a part of being a citizen. That notion is something scholars and sociologists and such call "civic republicanism". What would Elvis being drafted look like in 2017? What pop idol would ride around in a tank for a few years now https://history.army.mil/faq/elvis.htm ?

So, when we decided not to do that anymore, it wasn't just a decision to have a more professional, more steady, more competent force. I will be the first one to say, as a former line infantry leader, that I'm glad I didn't have any draftees. It was hard enough to keep volunteers motivated sometimes. But we did do more than just get a more professional force, what I think we did - and this is me - is divorce the military from it's role as a component of citizenship. Because it's not anymore. At all. People who don't serve at all are legally no different than you or me. They have not failed in any legal duty or obligation. I don't even think it can be said they've failed a moral or ethical obligation. They had no obligation. You and I, we volunteered to take up the burden, and kudos to us. But those folks, they didn't, and who am I to blame them? I didn't volunteer to be a doctor, or to be a mechanic, or to be a teacher or any of the things they chose to be. I chose certain jobs, they chose certain jobs, none of us were under any requirement to choose any certain thing. There's no expectation that I'll know anything other than what I personally signed up for, and why should we expect that of anyone else? We all have our work cut out for us learning our own trades. Why would we learn someone else's if we didn't have to?

That's perhaps some tough stuff for us to swallow as veterans and soldiers but the reality is that under the legal construct that we chose when we took the military service obligation out of "citizenship" at large, we divorced our military from any reasonable expectation that everyone else would learn our business. The wisdom of civic republicanism was that everyone, everyone, everyone had skin in the game or a husband or brother who did. Everyone. Everyone had a vested interest in learning what it was about, and everyone stood to lose from bad decisions about what we do with our military. Before the late 50's and then the 60's when all the waivers and ways out of the draft crept in, when the military went to war it meant everyone went to war - the sons of doctors and lawyers and politicians; the wealthy, the poor; everyone. Pretty close to it. Or, at least, a lot closer than now. It was hard to make that happen so we did it a lot less. The draft got corrupt in the late years and we threw the baby out with the bath water. Now here we are. If you're looking for someone to blame - 1978.

This is the cost of admission for the all volunteer force. We may not like all of the consequences; but you can't have your cake and eat it, too. If you want everyone to pay attention to the military and learn about its business, everyone has to have skin in the game. What you're sort of harking back to is the time when we were all in it, and we can't have that unless we really all are.

Elvis Presley's Military Career

Elvis Aron Presley entered the United States Army at Memphis, Tennessee, on March 24, 1958, and then spent three days at the Fort Chaffee, Arkansas, Reception Station. He left active duty at Fort Dix, New Jersey, on March 5, 1960, and received his discharge from the Army Reserve on March 23, 1964.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Jan 15 at 2018 8:02 PM

SSgt Boyd Herrst — Mon, 15 Jan 2018 20:02:25 -0500

There are movies that are out that people can get.. or go to YouTube to watch that describe different occupations in the Military .. so, when you get the chance to direct s’body to check on military occupations .. there is a gov’t video source of different military occupations..
I just don’t know where to send you. If anyone knows. Please come forward !

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Jan 15 at 2018 9:40 PM

SSgt Boyd Herrst — Mon, 15 Jan 2018 21:40:37 -0500

In H.S. I was in AFJROTC .. before that in Civil Air Patrol.. Made rank in the Enlisted cadets to Cadet SSGT and the school district started up with the AF help, The JROTC. A lot of the aviation books.. Rickenbacker and Hap Arnold and others I was given credit for and moved up w/o repetition of the same materials or like materials.. got to complete the Cadet Enlisted right to C/MSGT..(they didn’t have CSrMSGT or C/CmSGT. Then yet..
I was beginning to feel burnout for the JROTC.. I wanted to grow up out of the kiddy program.. so I checked out going AF Ready Reserve.. I had my completion certificate for the Cadet Enlisted program
.. spoke with Recruiters.. they said the had to check out the sitrep.. I waited .. not as long as I thought though They said there be a lot of things I’d have to do..
I took care of that part.. I’d done the battery tests.. got those done.. I did my sign up on my 17th B-dAy.. I was on my way that Friday... We got down there about 1130 that Friday night by 0100 I’d been asigned to a flight . We had a resourceful MTI.. we got a lot done that early Sat. Morn’g.. So on Monday we didn’t have much to do., Is this all a dream ? No, it’s very much real... Therd were several of us Had ROTC and a few were prior service, 1AF and 1 Army and an Army NG.. I wonder if I’ll get a position..
I’ll soon find out ! I got a Squad Ldr Job..
The College ROTC got Flight Chief(dorm chief.. that lasted 10 days.. MTI fired him
1st Squad Ldr become Dorm Chief .. I moved up to 2d Squad Ldr. A week later, he’s fired.. I moved to 1st..Sq. Ldr. 5 days that guy lasted.. “HERRST, GET IN HERE! DO You think you can help me make this a winning flight?” He asked I’ll do my darndest, SGT ________, Sir! “. “We’ll see!”m Go to work, here’s your board!”
He handed me my Clip board There is not much time left. 14 more days go by, I’m still Dorm Chief.. “DORM CHIEF! Take these people to Bldg ——, I’ll see you over there.. Base theater over by the base gym
Does e’body Have e’thing.; salt pills, canteen full, raincoat, Training book? ..
Everybody got e’thing. We’re good to go..
off we went .. “Who’s got a Jody? Keep it clean!” We tried best we could on that, so I called to cut it.. checked my watch.. we still had time.. I stopped the flight and told them take 5 in place and grab a drink.. “ no talking, save your breath!”
Canteens away, tighten it up. Ten-hut f’ward harch let’s get it in step. I seen
The red hat ladies march better and they’re all 80 years old..!” They didn’t like that.. so they got it straight and we stopped at the base theater.. Our MTI
Showed up and took over.. later after the movie, he said we had to talk.. “what’s this you said you seen the red hat ladies march better and they’re 80 years old !”
“That I did ‘l. “You’re gonna do ok! I’ve been hearing good talk about you from all the trainees.. not just our flight but others.. they say you have Command presence .. I like that ! We had 3 inspections and the flight had 2 very minor fixable right then gigs.. end of basic comes and I made it all rest of the way .. I and several others had to hang over for a week.. I needed to get back to my Reserve unit and School.. I’d never told any of the guys in the Flight, no way !
I got home with about 3 days left before starting school.. couldn’t be in AFJROTC anymore ..but I felt better about myself then.. So I had drills and got some good
Deploys .. it was work I enjoyed doing.
And why be doing s’thing you don’t enjoy.
I stayed in the AF 14-1/2 yrs if it were not for the Accident.. .. I’d of done a lot more..

Response by PO2 Rev. Frederick C. Mullis, AFI, CFM made Jan 18 at 2018 9:41 AM

PO2 Rev. Frederick C. Mullis, AFI, CFM — Thu, 18 Jan 2018 09:41:51 -0500

Hollywood is not to blame for the ignorance of the Civilian world. There have been plenty of Movies and TV shows that showed the Non-Combat part of the Military, albeit not as many as the Shooting part. Those with a bit of snow on the roof will remember a TV show back in the latter '50's early '60's called Hennesey about NAVY Doctors. Jackie Cooper played Chic Hennesey. and there was also a movie called "Red Ball Express" with Sidney Poitier in 1952, this later became a TV Series in 1973-74 called "Roll-Out" with Stu Gilliam that told of the famed truck convoy system that supplied Allied forces moving quickly through Europe after breaking out from the D-Day beaches in Normandy in 1944. So you see these are just two instances but there are more. People basically do not care if it does not directly affect them. If they do not find it interesting they will not seek it out and learn more.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Jan 18 at 2018 7:47 PM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Thu, 18 Jan 2018 19:47:08 -0500

However it doesn't change. Post-Army in 1993, I was military retired and looking for meaningful work. I got offered a lot of Police, Fire, Emergency, Security Guard, etc ... but none wanted me to supervise anyone. I retired as a Platoon Sargeant. I found it hard to get it across that the very position I applied for (supervision) was what I was best qualified (after 18 years NCO) and I was really trying to do that job.
After a year I started a trucking company and was very successful. So successful that I sold at the 6 year mark to another company that wanted my contracts. I made a mint AND capped out mine and all my 25 employees' 50K 401K plans .
Afterwards I got into military contracts. I did fine and made money there too. Today I owe nothing to no one or any bank other than a couple of car payments, gas, electric and water. I am truly retired and have been since 2011. I've done a few contracts and currently work part-time (EMT to keep busy) at an EMS transport company.
Last year - despite their knowledge that I (for the last 25 years) have made a very decent living leading my own debt-free companys, paying off my parent's large hospital bills, supporting a mother-in-law, put two daughters through two expensive universities, paid off my house, paid off numberous other small debts, managed a medium-sized trucking company and several overseas contracts - I was told that I should 'take' a security job in a local company. All because as the guy (who told me) saw what I was "best suited for" according to what he thought.
I laughed and paid for their lunch. I then thanked them for their time to tell them I had intended to consider their (small) company but I would have to pass (as I shook their hands) on the 100k investment. He (that made the comment) gave me a very odd look. His wife, the actual owner (minority-based business owner who knew what was supposed to happen) made an apology.
As I said, It doesn't change.
I had to shake my head after that meeting to clear it - After all I am just a uneducated, unskilled, trigger puller.
:D

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2018 3:07 AM

CAPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 19 Jan 2018 03:07:49 -0500

Good post. I've had many similar experiences. The level of ignorance about what the military does is staggering amongst the general population. Their loss.

Response by CA Delete D. made Jan 22 at 2018 1:25 PM

CA Delete D. — Mon, 22 Jan 2018 13:25:50 -0500

Great post! I'd do one of my usual rants, but this was well written and had interesting outcome. Bravo Zulu SGT Joseph Gunderson

Response by SSG Christopher Conklin made Jan 28 at 2018 7:40 PM

SSG Christopher Conklin — Sun, 28 Jan 2018 19:40:22 -0500

how from are you from fort hays, KS? I have daughter who going to school there.

Response by MAJ William Roberts made Jan 28 at 2018 9:10 PM

MAJ William Roberts — Sun, 28 Jan 2018 21:10:12 -0500

Lauren Katzenburg can attest to this true combat war story that you can make into a movie that will finally set it straight for many...The calls to prayer had ended but strangely they still seemed to echo through the stifling hot air. Even this early the sun seemed merciless but I had to go on, the mission, my men, I just couldn't fail. I struggled to move again, digging deep down to find the strength to move just a little more. I knew it wouldn't be easy to get by unseen; But I had to make it. I ducked into an alley trying not to breathe in too much of the foul smells. Good god what did those people eat last night...at the end was a danger area, I just knew it was the end. Would it be a sniper, an IED, or worse, the CSM....I MUST GO ON. I sprinted across ran to the door and NOOOOOOOO the horrors. Yes PTSD even to this day...GREEN BEANS WAS CLOSED. THE LIFE OF A FOBBIT ISN'T ALWAYS EASY.

Response by SGT Glen Sparks made Feb 4 at 2018 1:16 PM

SGT Glen Sparks — Sun, 04 Feb 2018 13:16:30 -0500

There is no good answer to your question - how does the civilian population get educated about what real military life and careers are all about. Honest one to one conversations are a good start, such as you've indicated here. A bit unrealistic for educating the majority of the population - especially now that such a very small percentage of America has served/ is serving and thereby knowing what military life is all about. My father was a career soldier...he served in the 6th Marines in Okinawa, got out of the Marines, joined the Army and quickly reached rank - retired as a Sergeant Major and served in Vietnam the year before I served my tour. And yet I would bet you'd get different perspectives from the two of us about our military experiences.. ....like I said...no pat answer, no universal answer....

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Feb 10 at 2018 11:04 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Sat, 10 Feb 2018 11:04:00 -0500

Some civilians you can explain thing to about the military, others are like the mule that needs a 2x4 to make the explanation to sink in.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Feb 10 at 2018 11:34 AM

SSG Edward Tilton — Sat, 10 Feb 2018 11:34:07 -0500

Not everyone pulls triggers, some pull lanyards. It gets hairy when you look down your tube and see the enemy has taken two of your six guns and is turning them to fire on you. I blame video games for making exceptional circumstances the norm. They and computer generated movies where weapons magically appear. Perhaps that is why clerks grow beards, ride harley's and buy hats that proclaim them a hero.

Response by SP5 Larry Morris made Feb 10 at 2018 1:46 PM

SP5 Larry Morris — Sat, 10 Feb 2018 13:46:33 -0500

You can not help people that don't want to be helped they don't care so quit trying

Response by CW5 John M. made Feb 11 at 2018 12:34 PM

CW5 John M. — Sun, 11 Feb 2018 12:34:49 -0500

The problem with having an occupation that is "popular" in the movie/entertainment industry is that you end up getting labeled by stereotypes, clichés, and sound bites. This is often inaccurate as well as negative. Just ask any "Cowboy" or "Indian" ..... Any Seals or Special Ops want to comment?

Response by MSG David Johnson made Feb 11 at 2018 1:57 PM

MSG David Johnson — Sun, 11 Feb 2018 13:57:32 -0500

At one time when people asked what I did in the military, I would give them a smart ass reply that I was a US Army trained terrorist (SAPPER), then would explain what I actually did.
After September 11 if someone asked me what I did in the military my response is, "I drove trucks"

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2018 7:38 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Feb 2018 19:38:05 -0500

And this is why Recruiting can be such a struggle. Many people have no concept of what the military is and many don’t realize that there are separate branches.

Response by SGT Donald Croswhite made Feb 16 at 2018 4:35 AM

SGT Donald Croswhite — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 04:35:30 -0500

I tried college after the Army. Some SJW asked me if I killed anyone today. I looked him in the eye and said, "day ain't over..."
Some people want to know. Some are just to get a rise. If I run into someone that's got a head full of Rambo mush in his head, you just go through a day that starts with motorpool-Monday. That'll take since steam out of his fantasy.

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made Feb 18 at 2018 7:57 AM

GySgt Charles O'Connell — Sun, 18 Feb 2018 07:57:40 -0500

Movies, T.V. programs, are meant for entertainment, rarely have I found any that bear a true resemblance to actual military life, or operations. Hence, people watching, who have no experience with the military form their opinions. The same can apply to other occupations. As a Fire Fighter, folks generally think I'm at one raging structure fire after another, that Police officers are daily engaged in high speed pursuits with guns blazing, Lawyers spend all their time in court rooms, etc... T.V. and movies are designed to make a buck, regardless of supposed social statement they want the public to believe. Imagine if "Top Gun" was a true depiction Naval Aviation, you'd have a 10 min movie, Maverick would have been grounded, owing to his described, history of breaking safety of flight rules, and one Admirals daughter.

Response by Capt Christian D. Orr made Feb 19 at 2018 3:49 AM

Capt Christian D. Orr — Mon, 19 Feb 2018 03:49:11 -0500

And here's another one for you: 99% of the civilians I meet seem to think that EVERYBODY in the Air Force is a pilot, that no other jibs in the USAF exist. Even when I tell them up front that I was Security Police, these dumb ignorant phuquetards ask me, "So, what plane did you fly?"

Response by LTC David Brown made Feb 20 at 2018 11:51 AM

LTC David Brown — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 11:51:53 -0500

Great post. The teeth to tails were about 3/7 when I was in. There are a lot of educators in the Military, We had active duty teaching pharmacology, physiology, statistics, anesthesia practice at the Academy of Health Sciences in San Antonio. Some pretty well educated folks. I am sure the Military academies have very qualified instructors not to mention other service schools.

Response by SGT Donovan Leeds made Feb 24 at 2018 10:41 AM

SGT Donovan Leeds — Sat, 24 Feb 2018 10:41:51 -0500

My father's job was radio repair in Vietnam and my grandfather was a Supply Officer in WW2 so I had an understanding about different jobs in the military prior to enlisting - and the job I held (SIGINT Analyst) kept me in the Nat'l Capitol Region for 10 years after I got out and primarily worked with former military. As a result, I personally haven't spoken to folks that are under the illusion that all roles in the military are combat arms. I'm now married to Active Duty Air Force (I upgraded - I was Army) and scheduled to PCS back to CONUS in a few months where we'll be stationed at another military base. If I end up in conversation with someone that thinks we're all combat arms, I'll likely laugh as I explain that's not how it works.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2018 9:32 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 04 Mar 2018 21:32:51 -0500

You can’t stop the film industry from making their hooah movies, but you can educate those around you one person at a time.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2018 1:05 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 01:05:23 -0500

Im a reservist and in a Med Support Unit. it is extremely rare that were see a rotation to a combat zone. I have been mobilized twice for great missions buy ive never seen combat and I am slightly embarrassed by it. Once people know I'm a Medic, they always ask if I've seen anything cool. Outside of training, no. I've handled more trauma as a civilian coming upon car accidents and putting my skills to work.

I have also work at some pretty liberal places where many coworkers are anti-war/guns/violence etc. It's very challenging to explain the non glamorous pew pew side of the military. It is also difficult for some coworkers to remove the distain from their faces when they look at me.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Mar 11 at 2018 1:39 PM

SSgt Daniel d'Errico — Sun, 11 Mar 2018 13:39:02 -0400

Unfortunately, you can't really educate "civilians", especially college students about the jobs of the military. Unless some of them have had some type of affiliation with the military ie. family, friends. They'll have to sit and listen to what is explained to them about non shooter jobs in the military. I have personally run into civilian students like this many times. They show their lack of knowlege a lot about the military. I explained "calmly" about how the military has doctors, mechanics, engineers, etc., don't fight the battles with guns. Hopefully many will learn the lesson and see the light.

Response by SP5 Joel O'Brien made Mar 15 at 2018 7:06 PM

SP5 Joel O'Brien — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 19:06:48 -0400

Case in point: "Good Morning Vietnam."

Response by Maj Robert Thornton made Mar 16 at 2018 5:16 PM

Maj Robert Thornton — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 17:16:16 -0400

Very interesting post. I didn't grow up around

Response by Cpl Wayne Wallace made Mar 21 at 2018 3:14 AM

Cpl Wayne Wallace — Wed, 21 Mar 2018 03:14:04 -0400

Very well put. I've met quite a few people wanting to know how many people did I kill. You try to explain to them that being in the military isn't all about killing. There is so much more to it. The friendships, the trust, the bonds. That what I want to tell people about.

Response by Cpl Wayne Wallace made Mar 21 at 2018 3:20 AM

Cpl Wayne Wallace — Wed, 21 Mar 2018 03:20:26 -0400

Who do they think takes care of all the reactors aboard our Subs and Aircraft Carriers. Must be those kids in College on spring break. Because no high school grad could ever be as smart as them. I'd take a Sub qualified sailor any day of the week over some of these so-called college-educated students

Response by SCPO Larry Knight Sr. made Mar 22 at 2018 6:57 PM

SCPO Larry Knight Sr. — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 18:57:39 -0400

I concur with all of you regarding this stigma of the private sector, versus military service member's educational background and the experience levels that we bring to their tables ! I remember when I was assigned to a destroyer tender in San Diego Ca during the 80's. We had teacher's from all levels, come onboard for a visit to get a up close and personal view of what the young men and women of our armed forces are actually doing. With the training we continually improve upon while attached and the technical schooling we provide. They left our ship with a much greater respect for along with a clearer understanding of the young bluejackets experience levels at such a young age groop. They actually praised many of them on their abilities while working alongside some of their shipmates with far more years of experience level. There will unfortunately be that percentage of locals that will always be blinded by their own ignorance, to a veteran's total package. When they get more frustrated with all their current staff not showing up for a day's business, or constant call outs ie;( my wife/husband she/he, or the dog/cat he ,etc (then they may seriously take a step back and look again at that highly educated, highly skilled, exemplary leader, highly organized veteran) with a work ethic that far exceeds many of their entire current staff from the top down to the deck plates !

Response by MSgt Horace Smith made Mar 25 at 2018 11:58 AM

MSgt Horace Smith — Sun, 25 Mar 2018 11:58:27 -0400

Once the draft ended, it didn't take but a decade or so for the civilian world to lose all perspective of the vastly different world called "the military". Today, those with military service in the U.S. armed forces make up about 4% of the total population... and that percentage shrinks as veterans die.

My career field in the USAF was Airborne Navigation Systems Repair, commonly called "Radar". Later my field was joined with Communications (Radio) and became "Com/Nav". Later still, as a Senior NCO, I trained to become a "line Chief" whose job was to supervise all maintenance on our assigned aircraft. I worked on cargo aircraft, observation planes, fighters, bombers and lastly tankers. While not directly involved in combat, my aircraft supported those who were including our oldest son who was Airborne Infantry in the First Gulf War. The tankers I helped to maintain refueled the B-52's flying from England to Iraq and Kuwait. I like to think that the bombs those "BUFFs" dropped helped to save many American and coalition lives.

I once read that there are 10 support troops behind every trigger puller. Movie goers would find my career field uninteresting - a small cog in a massive wheel - but it is one of hundreds of necessary skills that directly or indirectly support front line troops.

Response by SFC Quinn Chastant made Apr 9 at 2018 6:03 PM

SFC Quinn Chastant — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 18:03:24 -0400

Many civilians of the current generation never have contact with the Veteran Community, a couple of years ago, I attended a highschool program, and the JROTC students were a bit surprised to learn that I was a retiree of both military and civilian military service. retired as a Civil Affairs Specialist, 38B40, and a Career Civilian Firefighter GS0081. Hollyweird prefers movies with action and drama. Three Kings, presented a very skewed view of those in Civil Affairs. Yes, I spent a great deal of my last deployment outside the wire, by the same token, I was in conference meetings with City Staff, Planers, and Mayors as well as documenting the mundane aspects of maneuver damage to the local infrastructure by NATO and IFOR units. Not really glamorous, but essential for developing a lasting relationship and stabilization program for the Dayton Peace Accords. Not much of which placed me in harms way at the time. My peers in Iraq and Afghanistan, however, had a widely different experience.

Then factor in the programs which never get publicity; US Navy Seabees doing aid and construction projects; Medical Units performing training in the U.S. where some people never see a medical practicioner except in the most dire of circumstances; or CA Units training by working with local communities to support Disaster Planning. There is so much more to the Armed Forces than Door Kickers and Rambo Movies. But it is Popular media which drives the narratives.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2018 10:03 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 22:03:20 -0400

4 years ago when i joined the navy, i had zero knowledge of what being in the Navy was supposed to be other than how the navy is always on ships, etc.. fast forward 4 years i’m a HM3 serving on a marine base, no ships. It was an eye opener for me. The military will put you where they need you and it won’t always be on the front lines or on a destroyer every time.

Response by FN Robert Barrett made Apr 29 at 2018 9:51 PM

FN Robert Barrett — Sun, 29 Apr 2018 21:51:34 -0400

I agree, they think just because they went to college they know more than someone who worked and learned by on the job training. We had the experience not them.

Response by SP5 Ed Schratwieser made Apr 30 at 2018 1:38 PM

SP5 Ed Schratwieser — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:38:58 -0400

My mos was 64C (Heavy Wheeled Vehicle Operator). My mission was to transport fuel from the pipe head to the class III facilities to then be distributed to the combat arms units in their areas. Therefore my mission was to ensure that the combat arms units had the fuel and supplies to be able to perform their mission. (1976-1984)

Response by SGT David Green made May 5 at 2018 1:31 PM

SGT David Green — Sat, 05 May 2018 13:31:01 -0400

SGT Gunderson's comments fit in perfectly with things I've read, and feelings I have had independent of those articles, about the widening gulf between the civilian and military worlds. It's a natural by-product of the all-volunteer military, which was just commencing when I began my service in 1972. When there was a draft, just about everybody knew someone who had served -- and, consequently, had some knowledge about what serving members did. Now, as SGT Gunderson points out, hardly anybody knows anything about the military except what they are fed by the media, including motion pictures and television. The acknowledgement in this posting about the non-combatants who serve (I was in public affairs) is refreshing. It is ironic that today's civilians may think of all military members and veterans as warriors in the Audie Murphy mold, while many of our brothers in the combat arms think of us derisively as "pogues" or REMFs. In summary, I agree wholeheartedly with the notion that there is a need for the military to reach out and inform the civilian world about all that we in uniform do. They really know next to nothing about us.

Response by Lt Col Robert Canfield made May 10 at 2018 3:53 PM

Lt Col Robert Canfield — Thu, 10 May 2018 15:53:50 -0400

Occasionally a pretty good documentary comes around that can give the novice a somewhat realistic idea of what life in the military is like. In 2008, PBS produced a 10 part series called "Carrier" (featuring the USS Nimitz). What impressed me about it was that they talked to a wide variety of sailors that served on the ship and not just the pilots. They featured everyone from the guy who processes the garbage to the Master Chief, to the ships captain. Being an AF guy, I never served on a carrier, but my brother did, and I also got the opportunity to spend several days on one while it was doing air operations in the Gulf of Mexico. It amazed me that they could land aircraft on such a small piece of real estate. I really gained an appreciation for what the Navy could do, and what it was like to be on a 6 month sea deployment. A lot of moving parts and people on just one ship that is part of an entire carrier battle group. It takes a lot of smart people with a variety of different skill sets to make the whole thing work. Airfield Ops guys, Comm Techs, Radar Techs, Cooks, Supply guys, metal fabricators, Nuclear/Power pro folks, photographers, and of course the Pilots (excude me: "Aviators").

If you have about 10 hours to kill, I recommend watching it.

"Carrier" (PBS)
http://www.pbs.org/weta/carrier/

"Carrier" (YouTube)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p3wTXqZ-mk&list=PLV5B5g4iuHWUF4I8hbwAPAskYn8fx--RU

CARRIER | PBS

CARRIER, a 10-part series filmed aboard the USS Nimitz, is a character-driven, nonfiction drama and once-in-a-lifetime total immersion in the high-stakes world of a nuclear aircraft carrier.

Response by A1C John Reese made May 15 at 2018 7:39 AM

A1C John Reese — Tue, 15 May 2018 07:39:49 -0400

As a former Comm Specialist in the AF I am always happy to let people know that I served in a time and place where I was never shot at. Now, working on a second degree for Education, I'm surprised at how many former military members appreciate that sentiment. When I seperated in 1980 I was always asked what aircraft I flew, and the answer was, A teletype machine. It had always been an eye opener to the civil population that there were jobs that didn't require flying.

Response by PO3 B Al Eisen made May 18 at 2018 11:16 AM

PO3 B Al Eisen — Fri, 18 May 2018 11:16:11 -0400

As a veteran who taught physics for years, I had to tell my students every year that I was a Nuke, not a SEAL team member. I had to explain the differences.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2018 1:29 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 May 2018 13:29:09 -0400

Some people seek out ways to serve others. This often includes putting oneself in harms way. Other people seek out ways to earn a living peacefully. There is no right answer to this quandary or what might appear to be a contradiction in values. IMHO, people act based on their values and their interests. People's values should not be debated or argued. To do so could deny individuals the right to choose a life for themselves.

Movies tell stories. The stories often teach some lesson about life, happiness, or being apart of something larger than oneself. Lessons are important for generations to pass on to their posterity.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made May 20 at 2018 10:15 AM

SFC Robert Walton — Sun, 20 May 2018 10:15:03 -0400

In my opinion where the problem lies is the Military members them selves. "yeah I'm ex army" Or "well yes I was a marine" This is just the way they say it. Be Proud " I was in the ARMY". While in or even when they get out they (not all) tend to not talk about the time they were in, SGT Gunderson you can make a difference of what civilians view us as. You are a writer so now I ask have you ever heard of Bob Kern? He is a writer as well, "WE WERE SOLDIERS TOO" is one of his best series of books actually its the only series I have read so far. It is actually a gathering of short story's from Soldiers who served in the cold war. He has several other series. No one wants to hear the boring well I served in a boarder camp in Germany for three years, we patrolled the board looking for people who may have crossed the board to get to freedom and to make sure the people on the other side were not going to attack. BORING!

The movies are make believe and Best sellers have to have Hero's AMERICA Needs Hero's. Most want to be seen as the most important Soldiers. A perfect example of that is WWII and VIETNAM. I am a Vietnam Vet. as defined by the US ARMY, Veterans Admin. and Google with that said things have change see I was not a COMBAT VET. So to be by the new politically correct I must change my title to Vietnam Era Vet. Soldiers from WWII Were all defined as Vets. But now your only a vet if you went to Sand Land with a combat unit. How ever to even further dignify things Retired is no longer the same as my time in the Military now you have Retired Soldiers with 6 years or so of Service. This has caused people like me to keep quiet about their service so as to avoid condescending questions, Oh you weren't Combat? No but I spent 20+ years you only spent 3. It is easier to say I served and leave it at that. JMO

Response by CCMSgt Robert Hall made Jun 11 at 2018 8:54 AM

CCMSgt Robert Hall — Mon, 11 Jun 2018 08:54:32 -0400

College education to brake (a $100M F-35), high school education to fix it!

Response by LTC Michael Hrycak made Jun 24 at 2018 1:39 PM

LTC Michael Hrycak — Sun, 24 Jun 2018 13:39:29 -0400

Your experience in describing the military to your transitioning college professor is illuminating. My grandfather, father, and sister, are all college professors with Ph.D. degrees. But, my father and sister's perception of the military was interesting. I feel that many veterans would help the general perception of military service, but it is hard to have conversations where the civilians start teaching you what they know from watching the news, etc... I finally told some civilians that prior to retirement the Army removed the red telephone I had where the President would call and ask for advice.

Response by SSgt William Blanshan made Jul 1 at 2018 8:17 AM

SSgt William Blanshan — Sun, 01 Jul 2018 08:17:16 -0400

Most liberals feel that old wardogs like us are stupid. That we joined because we were too stupid to do anything else. I love to play with people like that by asking them things like "what is a mobius strip"? or a Klien's bottle. Or a tesaract. That last one they know, but are floored when they find out it's actually NOT what they saw in the movies.Most can't even tell you what Einstein's theory of relativity is actually about.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Jul 1 at 2018 11:03 PM

SSgt Daniel d'Errico — Sun, 01 Jul 2018 23:03:12 -0400

This isnot an easy subject to explain to covilians from all walks of life. Explaining the non combat positions would take a movie franchise of Lord of the Ring proportions. You must have impressed your professor greatly. Let's hope she lands a career field she enjoys and not one that migjt make she come back gunning for you.

Response by SFC James Lahtonen made Aug 14 at 2018 6:28 PM

SFC James Lahtonen — Tue, 14 Aug 2018 18:28:45 -0400

This myth that many of us joined because we couldn’t succeed in the civilian sector was also perpetuated by people already serving. I remember going to the board for SGT, and the CSM looking over my 201 file. He looked up at me and asked,”What, you couldn’t find a real job?” I still almost 30 years later remember my surprise. I also remember my response, “SMG, if you look more closely, you will notice that I graduate 5 years ago. Up until recently I had been employed by the Hyatt Corporation as the Executive Chef.” At that point he said ,”Good answer. I have no further questions for the candidate.” It also surprises people today when I tell them that I was very successful before I joined the Military. Obviously I was substantially older than my peer group, and as such had a little more maturity than most of the other Sp4’s. In my personal opinion, it’s a whole lot easier to succeed in the civilian sector than the Army. Anyone who leaves the Military, and applies themselves to a civilian job the way they did in the Military, there is no way that they will not succeed. Surprisingly, while recently taking a college course, I was able to identify other veterans, not only by their thought out replies, but also for the most part, more refined vocabulary. The work ethic one develops in the Military, which most bring in with them, is just honed by their service. Just my $.02 cents.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2018 6:58 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 06:58:05 -0400

I heard somewhere once that the ratio of support personnel to actual door kicker is 8:1 even in a BCT. Think of all the supply, logistics, maintenance, admin and medical folks it takes to support the actual person on the ground sending rounds downrange. It's staggering.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Sep 28 at 2018 7:03 AM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 07:03:28 -0400

Which university?

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made May 7 at 2020 2:30 PM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Thu, 07 May 2020 14:30:16 -0400

I didn't read this last year when it was posted but enjoyed it immensely -
You captured the flag on this one. Thanks.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2020 11:54 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Dec 2020 11:54:30 -0500

We dealt with this in recruiting. All the proof sources in the World can't overcome a serious objection to serve. Misconceptions and drawbacks are easier. If a kid asked if he would stand guard, mess, or any other duty, the answer was yes. If they understood that enlistment equaled a blank check up to and including their life, you left little for the imagination. That's when you showed a picture of headstones at Arlington, and if they could find a better way to serve, go for it. Intangibles only mean a lot to certain groups of people. Many in academia become jaded over time, to confirm their bias against serving. Not all. Some had illustrious records of service, but never spoke of it.