Forced Participation (Why do we force people to participate in Dining Outs, Military Balls, etc.?)

2014-03-19T10:09:59-04:00

Why do we have this practice of forcing people to participate in Dining Outs, and Military Balls? If someone knows they have other things to do, don't want to pay for a ticket, or have the courage to say they don't like wearing the dress uniform. Why do we force them to be labor, or find other avenues to force people to be somewhere that always comes down the pipeline as an optional event?<div> <div>I would like some insight not only for myself, but for other junior personnel who might want to know the same.</div></div>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 10:23 AM

2014-03-19T10:23:32-04:00

I really wish they didn't do force participation, but not for the reasons you are asking. I prefer it to be optional because that gives me less competition when networking and meeting  higher ups that I don't normally get to associate with.  I've done some of my best networking at Military Balls and other similar events.  So if less soldiers were there, that would make it even easier. I highly encourage junior enlisted soldiers to attend these types of events.  They can be great for your career if you approach it in the right manner.

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Mar 19 at 2014 11:46 AM

2014-03-19T11:46:12-04:00

Is it bad that I only go to these events to cut out early, just so I don't get forced to do extra duty? Lol, a waste of money on my part just to keep my personal time.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 11:50 AM

2014-03-19T11:50:47-04:00

I think a lot of this comes down to tradition, especially Balls and Dining Outs. As a junior enlisted Soldier, I had no idea what these functions were all about, why we should go to them, and so I didn't want to go. I wasn't forced to go, but my alternative was to work some sort of detail connected with the event. As a Senior NCO, I have come to appreciate the purpose and tradition of these occasions and actually look forward to them. Perhaps that is where the gap is, leaders aren't explaining the significance of these events to Soldiers. I suggest going to a few and keeping an open mind, it might not be as bad as you think!

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Mar 19 at 2014 1:01 PM

2014-03-19T13:01:16-04:00

TRADITION! These events are a part of our military's tradition...if we do not participate, traditions will eventually go by the wayside.

Seems our next generation of leaders are displaying a selfish 'sense of self' and not adapting to our military traditions. Why do they serve then?

Having "other things to do", "don't want to pay for a ticket", or "they don't like wearing the dress uniform" are selfish excuses and are NOT inline with the Army Values.

That being said...

Our leaders need to encourage a sense of esprit-de-corps and educate our Soldiers on the importance of our traditions and the importance for taking an active role in maintaining these traditions by attending these events.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 2:17 PM

2014-03-19T14:17:20-04:00

I don't mind going to the military balls. But sometimes it hard to get a baby sitter that can take care of child with special needs. The one thing I don't like being forced to do is go to FRG meetings. If my wife does not want to take part in it that fine but why should I have to attend if I do not want to participate. I 've seen the FRG used a information hub for some cheating wives to find the best place to get a abortion so there husband does not find out.

Response by LTC Joseph Gross made Mar 19 at 2014 2:22 PM

2014-03-19T14:22:30-04:00

No doubt you have seen what the newest generation of Soldiers look like? It is not inspiring. Too many of them have joined the Army with the attitude that they don't have to adapt. The Army can just change to fit their ways. Things like Balls and mandatory fun are done for a reason and it is not to annoy junior Soldiers are make Officers and CSMs feel good. It is to instill a sense of pride, ownership and dedication to an organization bigger than ones self. No one could use it more than the current new crop of hide from the flag, mug in front of the coffin, in it for themselves me generation. You should see it as your duty to ensure younger Soldiers understand this. And those that scoff at the notion of something bigger than themselves should be sent home.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 2:23 PM

2014-03-19T14:23:13-04:00

There really shouldn't be any reason to force individuals to participate. However, unit members should look to tradition (as mentioned by previous posters), the ability to network (also previously mentioned), and the establishment of a sense of community within the unit and the development of informal networks, and the establishment of unit cohesion/recognition of unit history. These are all valuable things that unit members should take into account when they are considering whether to attend or not.

The problem that I see with Military Balls, Dinings In and Dinings Out is that they are often culturally backward...participation is often a mix of professional and unprofessional. We formalize and participate in elaborate ceremonies, then we get drunk and half naked on the dance floor and people get punished for sexual harassment, drunk driving, charges of nepotism and not allowing women into the old boys network. Not to mention the opportunities for leaders to display conduct that degrades their ability to lead in the unit.

The military is at a crossroads and many of our traditions are running counter to our Army values and the public image we intend to cultivate. We should probably re-evaluate them, determine what should be kept as-is and what should be modified.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Mar 19 at 2014 2:58 PM

2014-03-19T14:58:04-04:00

You have some really great responses so far. I was no different coming up through the ranks. I asked the same questions.

"Is this mandatory?"

"Why do I have to go?"

"I hate these things."

"I hate getting dressed up."

"I don't ever know what's going on at those things?"

I grew up as a Cavalry Scout and the CAV is rich in tradition. I had a Section Sergeant and a Platoon Sergeant sit me down as a young age and explain the traditions to not only me, but the entire Section and Platoon. That went a long way. After that, I wanted to go. I wanted to put on the dress uniform, with Stetson and Spurs of course ;) My point is that my NCOs took time to explain the history of the Army traditions to me. That went a long way.

In a few of your responses on here you ask "why don't we teach the history behind the traditions?" I would challenge you to get with your NCOs and ask them. If they are unwilling to explain them to you, then I would challenge you to take it a step farther. Do the research on your own and tell them that you would like to present a class to your Section, Platoon or Company on Army traditions. Good luck!!!

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 3:04 PM

2014-03-19T15:04:34-04:00

SPC Smith.  As with the majority of the responses below it is about tradition.  That said, my exposure started in Berlin in the late 80s/early 90s.  My NCO and Officer chains made it clear that if you were E4 and below it was optional (and went out of their way to reinforce it).  When I went to PLDC we had a gentleman come in and talk to us (A retired SFC, I believe, who lived in Germany and did something at 7A NCOA) - he said that once you cross the threshold of your first enlistment the Army became more than a quick pay-off for college - you agreed to embrace traditions that go back even beyond the formation of the US.  Wearing blues is no different then going to a dinner in a suit (as I do nowadays).  If you are going to "be" a part of an organization you need to understand the culture, history, and camaraderie.  Many people that I met at functions are still friends & mentors to this day. Since the ASU only requires the addition of a bow tie the question of not liking the dress uniform is a moot point.  Even in the day, you didn't have to get blues - you could wear a white shirt/bow tie with the Class 'A' uniform. I disagree with making functions mandatory for junior enlisted.  It puts pressure on someone who may not care (and in some cases does care but cannot afford it).  As for using Soldiers as labor, it is a military function and sometimes you just have to embrace the suck and make it fun.  I was Color Guard and did a couple of other odd stints at Dining In/Out as an E1-E3 and I got free food out of the deal and my 1SG made sure we didn't pay for a drink after the retiring of the colors.  A pig with lipstick is still a pig but it's easier to look at.  Sometimes it just sucks to be joe and if it's not the life for you then ETS and go on to other things.  If my first 2-3 years in the Army were my roadmap for the future I'd have gotten out and never looked back.  Some great leaders brought me to where I am at now and I do not regret a single day in uniform. If you are someone looking to put in more than one enlistment I highly recommend attending.  Not necessarily for face time (although it doesn't hurt in spite of what anyone says to the contrary), but for the time to share - you learn a lot about your leaders when you are in a semi-social setting.  People you thought were stuck up jerks turn out to be pretty decent people.  Most of the spouses I met were more excited about it than we were so in a sense this is about them as well.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 3:17 PM

2014-03-19T15:17:36-04:00

Everyone has excellent responses and SGM Quick's was perhaps the best. My $.02, Soldiers want to be supported by the command, correct? Whether it is in the form of passes, awards, ect. If you want the command to support you then shouldn't you support the command. For example, my organization had a going away yesterday for a NCO. Even though I did not know this NCO well because of the different natures of our jobs I went in support of him. Why???? Because it is the right thing to do. Your command does alot of things for you that you might not see and balls, dining in/out, fundraising, hail/farewells, and unit functions are your way of having your commands back.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 3:19 PM

2014-03-19T15:19:30-04:00

If you don't wanna go, just say no. Having said that, tradition and esprit de corps should be promoted and participated with.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 5:57 PM

2014-03-19T17:57:58-04:00

I have seen three sides of this issue, first as junior
enlisted, second as a NCO and now as a staff officer. I have never agreed with
the policy of putting non-participating soldiers on crap details to
"encourage" them to reconsider. That being said, as a SPC I did pay
for a ticket and not attend our BN dining out when the 1SG said that was an
acceptable alternative. I think that was a mistake on the 1SGs part by not
taking the opportunity to explain the significance of military dinings in &
out and the ceremonies surrounding them to the junior enlisted.

As a NCO, I took the responsibility to explain the
importance of military traditions and tried to get maximum participation. As always, more senior NCOs threatened crap
details to anyone who did not attend this “voluntary” event. With help from my immediate chain of command,
I covered for soldiers who didn’t wish to attend when I could. I could never blame kids who work hard for 70
hours a week for not wanting to give up a night of freedom.

As a staff officer, there is an expectation that I should
attend our annual dining out. The first
year I was with the BN, I thought I should go as a show of solidarity. This BN
gets the FRG and attendees to help with setup so there are no poor kids stuck
on detail, except for the honor guard, and they get free admission. I’m a
S6 in a FA BN, so I ended up plugging in a lot of electrical equipment for the
slide show and the percolating punch bowl and then I sat outside during
cocktail hour and collected officer and NCO dues from the attendees. For the most part I had fun, but not enough
fun that I wanted to do it again. I
doubt that I’ll attend another one with this unit until I know I’m going to
PCS, mostly because it is an extra hour of driving each way, and I don’t have a
designated driver.

The bottom line is: I think everyone should attend one
formal event with their currently assigned unit. This will help to instill esprit de corps and
pass on unit traditions. I don’t think
there is anything more demoralizing than some higher-ranking buffoon (NCO or
Officer) saying that attendance is voluntary and then putting everyone that doesn’t
attend on a 3 hour police call of the parking lot and motorpool. I once saw a “voluntary event” that had a
100% recall formation before and after to prevent soldiers from leaving the
area. That is the kind of asshat-ery
that breaks down esprit de corps and builds resentment.

Response by SSG Robert Blum made Mar 20 at 2014 8:39 AM

2014-03-20T08:39:47-04:00

Mandatory is a strong word. I would have to say Highly encouraged, and that is the way your unit should word it. If you unit reserves a ball room for 200 people and only 50 show, chances are that money was lost. I encourage my Soldiers to attened theese events not only becuase it a tradition but as an orginization where at any given moment we can be called to defend our country and we must be prepared to risk our lives to do so, I think that it nice to once, twice, or more times a year to bring the "family" together in a social setting. As for wearing the Dress unifrom, I think we should do that more often outside of balls. Soldiers should be proud of thier unifrom and what it represents. Those little details that Soldiers get selected to preform when they choose not to go to the ball. Thats not being unfair or injust, somebody has to do it, and by not attending the ball that Soldier has made his or herself avaliable. Its not a Punishment for not going to the ball, even tho it may seem like it. Most of the time those Soldiers are Comped the time they spent at the ball anyway. Soldiers 24/7

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2014 8:48 AM

2014-03-20T08:48:54-04:00

You should WANT to go. They are great events and a great bonding experience. Also, if you're married, trust me your spouse will have fun getting all dressed up.

In my case, my current unit decided to put on a pre deployment dining in, YET EXCLUDE SOLDIERS. Yes, only E-6 and above are invited....

I'm boycotting.

Response by SSG Zachery Mitchell made Mar 20 at 2014 8:53 AM

2014-03-20T08:53:24-04:00

I personally have never been forced to do any of them. I have been strongly encouraged, but never forced. I have however, gone to every ball that I have been able to attend since joining the Army. I enjoy them for many reasons and always have a ton of fun.

The sense of pride I feel when learning/participating in the tradition of them is almost unexplainable. It gives my wife a reason to buy a nice fancy dress and get her hair and make up all done as well as a nice evening away from our children. Don't get me wrong, we love our children but anyone with kids can understand that breaks are needed.

I have only been to one NCO dining in though. It's the only one I've ever seen my career for what it's worth. I had a lot of fun interacting with a lot of the NCO's in my unit that I don't typically work with or interact with. I felt it was a great way to wind down, relax and enjoy a night with a lot of other like minded leaders.

I have never forced any of my Soldiers to attend these functions either. I have encouraged them to go, not because I want to waste their night, but I would like them to experience the tradition that comes with these types of events. It's an experience not very many other Americans can say they have been able to participate in. One should be proud to attend such things.

Response by SPC(P) Delcina Myers made Mar 20 at 2014 9:54 AM

2014-03-20T09:54:26-04:00

You wouldn't have to force me to attend a military ball, I would LOVE to go. I would consider it an honor to be around a fine group of people and listen to their "war stories". Any chance to wear ASUs and show off all my ribbons/awards, as low a rank I am without any experience overseas, I have quite a few. I feel good about my ribbons, no one down them :(... Lol. 

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 12:06 AM

2014-03-21T00:06:17-04:00

I do understand why participation is strongly encouraged but I can not agree with manditory and do not agree with making them so. That being said certain Soldiers should understand the effects of not attending and how it may effect advancement.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 8:08 AM

2014-03-21T08:08:14-04:00

Alot of these events are way for you to represent your unit and to show off your "bad a$$) uniform. I have found over the years that people that haven't been deployed and haven't received many awards find new respect when they see their leaders uniform all decked out. It gives them motivation to do the right thing and strive to over achieve so one day their uniform will also look good. In addition to the awards and decorations making you look good it also allows others to see that you take pride in what you have accomplished in your career.

There are always people that like to boast about how awesome their career has been and how much they have done but when it comes down to it your uniform speaks for you.

Attending these events allows you to celebrate your unit history and at the same time see another side of the people you work with. These relationships that you build outside of work go along way. You tend to build more of a personnel relationship with your seniors, peers, and subordinates. When at work you respect that person in uniform but when you build some of a personnel relationship you respect that person in addition to the uniform they wear.

Hope this helped.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2014 5:43 PM

2014-04-12T17:43:53-04:00

The honor of serving in the U.S. Army comes with many customs and traditions. These are great practices you should embrace as something unique unto it's self. Be proud of being apart of something that only you, and your brothers and sisters in Arms could know about.

I'm sure if you really wanted a more "Corporate" sense of Military service, the Air Force doesn't practice these nearly as much as the Army. If you wanted more tradition and customs then opting for the Marine Corp would suit you more.

I believe the best way to enjoy these events, is to take part in them. Volunteer for the Color Guard or volunteer to speak the narrative of the "Fallen Soldier's table". If that doesn't evoke some sense of pride, then I think you might be in the wrong profession.

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Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made Aug 18 at 2014 11:35 AM

2014-08-18T11:35:56-04:00

I never HAD to participate in anything. The big thing in the Marines, is the Birthday Ball, and most every Marine I know, considers it an honor to go, and no, its not manditory.
I did have a Gunnery Sergeant aquaintence who hated all the pomp and circumstance of a Mess Night, but having been a lowly Cpl, never had to deal with that, though again, She told me it was a pain in the butt to get ready for, but it was always an honor to be a part of the event.
Forced participation for me, consisted of PT, and the occasional unit party, but those were usually enjoyable, even for those of us who had to stay up all night to tend the Smoker, as those I attended were, what they call "Pig Pickings" meaning an entire pig is cooked over night, and is usually done by someone who knows how to do it... otherwise you have an event known as "THE EXPLODING PIG," when the carcas is stuffed with rice that has not been soaked, and therefore becomes four times its size.... and yes, they do tend to explode, but it is entertaining!

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 11:41 AM

2014-12-23T11:41:12-05:00

People seem to keep saying over and over how selfish the new generation is. They seem to forget that these people joined at a time of endless conflict, with endless deployments, extensions, and constant talk of cutting pay and benefits, to serve their country.

Maybe part of the problem is that we do not attempt any sort of work-life balance, and criticize those who want to spend some kind of time with their families instead of their commands as selfish. Maybe the Service Balls, Dining Outs, and Christmas Parties were great for bonding before 9-11 and the "Forever War" of GWOT/OCO/whatever we're calling it now...but we are now asking more of our soldiers, while cutting their pay, benefits, training and equipment budgets, and removing their fellow service members from the fight through RIFs and other involuntary separation measures.

Maybe, just maybe, these younger soldiers, who have known nothing but a decade of deploying, training for the next deployment, then deploying again, all while being told how selfish they are for not volunteering enough or attending enough unit functions, are just burned out and don't feel the need to spend yet another evening at work, even if it is disguised as a party.

Response by LTC Paul Heinlein made Dec 23 at 2014 9:11 PM

2014-12-23T21:11:22-05:00

I once had a junior Officer tell me informally that they felt they were not treated like they were a part of the team by the unit and they asked what I thought and if I perceived that about the Junior Officer.
I asked the junior Officer how many non-mandatory off duty type events they attended (I knew the answer already) and they said "none".
I explained to the junior Officer that it is at these events where a lot of team building occurs. That at these events are where your peers and superiors have a chance to get to know you as a person versus just as a Soldier.
I explained to the junior Officer that if you want to be part of the team, then you have to show you are a part of the team. By avoiding these events, you are basically saying I do not want to be part of them team.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 1 at 2015 10:02 PM

2015-04-01T22:02:20-04:00

Mandatory Fun!!!! Events like these are traditions, and you should want to go and be part of the team. Of lot of this has to do with morale in your organization, and how well the leadership sells the reasons and importance of such events.

I think the real issue, is we you really don't want to go. I don't really understand...

You don't have the courage... and you don't like wearing your uniform?

Perhaps you made a bad career choice?

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Apr 1 at 2015 10:13 PM

2015-04-01T22:13:36-04:00

I've enjoyed reading many of the responses. I've noticed a cultural shift over my career regarding these events. Way back when and more recently in several overseas locations, the Ball is the event of the year because there isn't anything else that's a dress up and let your hair out a bit. Adak comes to mind as does Antarctica for me. There are more choices of what to do with non-duty hour time, money is tight, and why do I want to hang out with people that I'm stuck with all week notions out there. I recommend that these times are used to reflect on your contribution to the ongoing tradition and to honor those we no longer have with us. As the years passed, the POW/MIA empty table would bring more tears as there were ever more near to me that I lost. Good time to recenter yourself and let the event restore some of your own sanity. And for the events that include family and friends, it's a good opportunity for them to understand better what you contribute. They are very proud of you. I'd presume there's a sliding scale for cost. For the Seabees, the Chief's Community hosts various fundraising events to offset costs. Regardless what you pay, make sure you get your money's worth and get in tight with your shipmates. They're the ones that will push you out of the way of the incoming round one day.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2015 10:26 PM

2015-04-01T22:26:41-04:00

Some soldiers are here just for a paycheck but the fact is when they signed up for the "service" they signed up for the whole experience. We can just play the parts we like in forget about the ones we don't like about being a soldier.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2015 11:29 AM

2015-04-18T11:29:44-04:00

Soldiers should want to go to these events. When done correctly they are a morale booster. In a great unit, typically the ones that don't want to go are the non-team players and dirt bags(I said typically not always). In a garbage unit on the other hand, I can definitely understand. In all honesty though, I think every soldier should attend at least one and as leaders we should attend to show our soldiers that we support it. For your dirt bags though, leave them on staff duty, they'll be a buzzkill anyway.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 19 at 2015 5:19 PM

2015-04-19T17:19:57-04:00

I don't do it because I enjoy it or I because I love going to military balls, I do it because I support the Army, my unit and my Soldiers. I do it to do my part in bringing everyone together in one place to have a good time too. I totally don't mind doing it but once or two at the most times a year is enough.

Response by CH (MAJ) William Beaver made Apr 21 at 2015 7:25 AM

2015-04-21T07:25:40-04:00

As the unit Chaplain, not only must I attend. But I must perform Invocation/ Blessing of the Meal and Benediction. And still pay for a ticket. But.... so does my Commander . It's just all part of the military. I enjoy it.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2015 3:55 PM

2015-11-30T15:55:26-05:00

I love the tradition talk! Let us bring back traditions just as old if not older than these events! Get rid of the women in the name of tradition! Black soldiers? heck no, tradition! Let us allow higher ranking soldiers to abuse lower levels to include hazing, tradition! Let us test drugs on soldiers (LSD, agent orange just to name a couple), TRADITION! Remember the good old days when we would go to these balls with no female soldiers with black servants, looking over at PFC Gay Slur (as this is tradition as well) with a black eye from showing up to formation 9 minutes early instead of 10. God bless TRADITION, as it is bigger than us and needs to be preserved.....

Response by Justice Angel made Mar 9 at 2017 2:34 AM

2017-03-09T02:34:25-05:00

Only a few things can cause deprivation of normal liberty so unless your in trouble your in the clear. There aren't any standing orders in any of the US Armed Forces policies and regulations that can order you to buy tickets for a Ball or event. Furthermore for the ones who decide not to attend and threatening them or being "voluntold" with a working party is completely wrong and against regulations by the way. Here's some clarification normal liberty is at the end of a normal work day and on weekends. So being "voluntold" that they will participate in whatever non military event and/or non military community service is a direct violation of policies regarding volunteer activities. You know what we call that in the private sector...slavery.

Response by Cpl Tom Surdi made Mar 15 at 2017 11:19 AM

2017-03-15T11:19:09-04:00

Attending the Marine Corps Ball was one my favorite experiences, and my date talks about it to this day even though it was over 15 years ago and it makes her husband jealous. It was a chance for everyone to come together and celebrate everything that made The Corps great. And it was the ONLY time that everyone from the General on down to the lowest Private could be on as level playing field as you could get. It wasn't about rank, it wasn't about being an Officer or Enlisted, it was about being a Marine and the pride of your Corps.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2017 11:36 AM

2017-03-15T11:36:24-04:00

never went to a single one thank goodness. I guess I didn't really pay that much attention to them while I was in but heard more about them after I got out.

Response by TSgt Scott Hurley made Mar 15 at 2017 11:55 AM

2017-03-15T11:55:31-04:00

Never went to any of the military (AF) balls, if held, at bases I was stationed at. And it was usually invite only or the tickets were too pricey for us. I do not know about other members of the AF, but some of us felt that the enlisted were not important enough for the ball since we thought it was mainly for Officers and special guests. Like the town community.

Response by PO3 John Keas made Mar 15 at 2017 12:15 PM

2017-03-15T12:15:13-04:00

Never had the opportunity forced or not to go to one. So I have no opinion. Not sure I would want to be forced tho. I would have liked to have attended one, but I probably would not have been the first choice. Wasn't that popular with my LPO

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Mar 15 at 2017 2:18 PM

2017-03-15T14:18:51-04:00

You enlisted. It's not just a job. If you pull CQ, SDNCO, etc, then those duties go into off-duty times. A military ball is no different. It's part of team building. If you feel your personal time is too important for those few hours every year then it makes you look like you are not a team player. Getting out & being part of your unit's family builds cohesion even though we all roll our eyes & bear with it.

Response by SSgt Michael Cox made Mar 15 at 2017 2:25 PM

2017-03-15T14:25:42-04:00

I served 14 years in the AF and never attended an AF Ball. I can't even remember being asked by my command staff to attend. I did go to the combat dinning in and dinning out though. Guess they wanted me and my guys and gals on the flight line fixing aircraft instead. We had priorities.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2017 7:22 AM

2017-03-16T07:22:44-04:00

I agree with a lot of tradition arguments, but I don't believe that being selfish is truly the reason. A lot of soldiers come into the Army with already established families, and they have to calculate, down to the dollar, the budget that they use based on what the Army pays them, and for some soldiers $70.00 for two tickets to a function where they will have to wear a uniform that will have to be cleaned and correctly set up is too much for them. When the Class A's were phased out in favor of the ASU, I paid over $600.00 for the full kit. That isn't money we can spare too often.

To echo earlier voices, thr already long hours we can put into the job coupled with the traditional Army extra taskings doesn't make one of these events too appealing. In essence you are telling a soldier that you understand he has worked over 12 hours a day every day of the week doing tasks that are all considered priorities, but he still has to go to an additional function that he now has to pay out of pocket for tickets, then a baby sitter for the kids, gas for the car, dress for the wife and uniform trimmings, among other things. It's like coming back from a 12 month deployment only to head out to the field for 30 days.

If you want to hold a Ball, be my guest. But unless you change a few things, (like holding it during a low point in the unit OPTEMPO) you might as well put "Griping and Moaning" on the long range calendar, maybe somewhere between the NTC rotation and the new Commander's Inventories.

Response by SPC Robert Patrick made Mar 16 at 2017 1:11 PM

2017-03-16T13:11:41-04:00

I personally never cared for formal events or being in large groups but I still chose to go to these events so I could learn more about them. Eventually I even Volunteered to be apart of the Color guard to carry on tradition. I enjoyed the ceremonial parts even if I didn't particularly care for the social aspects. It should not be mandatory because all it brings about is resentment but it should be strongly encouraged that you attend at least one during your time in service. I actually managed to have fun at a couple of them ASU's and all.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Mar 18 at 2017 6:55 PM

2017-03-18T18:55:25-04:00

To inflate their own ego

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 15 at 2018 8:09 PM

2018-05-15T20:09:57-04:00

They were designed to foster camaraderie, espirit de corps, and to give lessons of the history of the unit as well as to train you not to piss in the potted plants. Believe me it is much easy to go, then be on the Cdr's/SNCO crap list, and not wearing the dress uniform definitely won't cut it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2018 10:17 PM

2018-10-24T22:17:51-04:00

That’s because the battalion paid already and cost is a lot of money so they’re just trying to get their money back. Therefore they force soldiers to attend or tell them they don’t have to be there but have to buy tickets or the consequences is that they’re going to be there regardless anyways for detail.

Response by SPC David S. made Oct 25 at 2018 1:51 PM

2018-10-25T13:51:48-04:00

While many will tell you some nice sound bit - its really all about promotion. At the upper ranks how you conduct yourself in a social setting is important especially considering foreign dignitaries, congressman and what not in attendance. You don't want an O-6/E-10 to go off the rails and turn into "hank the tank" at one of these functions.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Oct 25 at 2018 2:08 PM

2018-10-25T14:08:11-04:00

because these events are traditions, it's not like every month you have one, it is usually a yearly thing - you are part of something much larger then yourself or family unit, and the history, traditions, and comraderie these events instill are more important then your opinion regarding them. suck it up buttercup, don the uniform, and partake of your units history and pride.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2018 10:38 PM

2018-10-25T22:38:19-04:00

I can tell you why I've never been to a single ball since I've been in.... I've been working. Be it CQ/SD, TDY, or better yet working mission from a dungeon of an office supporting action down range. If I'm not working mission that night, can you guess what I'm doing bright and early the next morning while everybody gets a zonk from PT and/or a late work call? Espirt-de-corps my ass, they are too busy rounding up all the people who don't want to go, and neglecting the requests from the soldiers unable to go.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2018 1:00 AM

2018-10-26T01:00:50-04:00

The Army is an organization. Organizations are comprised of people. People in various positions in the Army make decisions that affect you, your career, and your family.
I always encouraged Soldiers to attend Dining Ins and Dining Outs, as well as other organization events.
First, it is good to socialize and learn more about those with whom you serve. Additionally, you become a face attached to the rank/name. You may be provided the opportunity to meet someone who can mentor you, influence your career, or become a lifelong friend.
Participating in events, even if you cut your time short, demonstrates your support for the organization.
Should an issue arise that results in a need to decide whether to administer some nonjudicial punishment, or something other undesirable, your participation, and acceptance as a team player based on participation may come into play, resulting in a pass.
I encourage support for unit functions, and found it helped my recognition when needed.
It is also fun.

Response by SSG Charlie Beebe made Oct 26 at 2018 2:34 PM

2018-10-26T14:34:33-04:00

I have attended many of these events throughout my 20+ and I learned 2 important things. 1) You can have fun and build a stronger rapport within the unit. 2.) NO ONE ever dictated how long I stayed.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2018 12:51 PM

2018-10-27T12:51:23-04:00

It’s not the fault of the junior enlisted to not desire to participate in these events. They’re not selfish or lazy. No the problems lies with their leadership. The junior enlisted would want to attend if their Leadership made a convincing case to them to value such opportunities. If the junior enlisted don’t see the value, then those above them have failed on the sales pitch and not created a climate that would encourage participation in these events.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2018 11:22 PM

2018-10-28T23:22:40-04:00

Dog and pony man. Dog and pony lol. I actually like going to balls but at this point for me, it's just to show off my date and laugh at people "letting their hair down". Its not going to stop so just have fun with it lol but for the record, I don't agree with mandatory fun. I never have.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2018 12:08 PM

2018-10-30T12:08:52-04:00

Well, you’ll miss it when you’re gone. Might be an inconvenience now, but if you’re a hard charger and get out or retire, finding and attending one later when you’re missing your buds or the service, you’ll wish you went and appreciated it more.

Response by PO1 Mike Meehan made Oct 30 at 2018 7:38 PM

2018-10-30T19:38:46-04:00

Here's my take as a guy that attended most of the Submarine Birthday Balls that I could get to. If you're going to call it "optional", then make it so. If it's going to be a mandatory function for certain paygrades, make that clear. We all get lied to enough by politicians, for our Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Airmen, and Guardsmen, let's try a little straight up honestly.
Saying "optional" when you mean "mandatory" undermines the credibility of leadership and the Chain of Command. Think about it. We don't want dishonesty and lack of clarity to become a part of our traditions.

Response by SSG Timothy Stevenson made Jun 15 at 2019 6:15 PM

2019-06-15T18:15:40-04:00

My favorite trick was being an NCO I was required to purchase tickets. They never told me I had to go, so id give them to my new young soldiers as a gift. They hated me after but they did the same trick as they got promoted.

Response by Melissa Didericksen Didericksen made Jun 15 at 2019 6:31 PM

2019-06-15T18:31:47-04:00

My husband and I never did attend sunny military balls. Why? We couldn't afford the tickets or the cost of getting new dresses for me. We also had young kids and didn't have anyone to watch them. Ny hubby and I both are apart of and all for tradition but there's a limit.

Response by Sgt Jerry Mays made Jun 15 at 2019 10:49 PM

2019-06-15T22:49:53-04:00

I’ve never been forced. They were always optional.

Response by LtCol George Carlson made Jun 15 at 2019 11:09 PM

2019-06-15T23:09:24-04:00

Neither the concept of "voluntary" functions that aren't or juniors who don't understand is peculiar to the military. My father (who had served as a Supply Corps officer in the Navy in WW2) made a somewhat similar comment about "volunteer" activities not being really volunteer in the military and I had to call him on it. I said, "Dad, who are you kidding? As the Chairman of the Accounting Department you wouldn't think of not going to the Business School Dean's Reception. No, he doesn't wear eagles nor you silver leaves, but you know and respect that you are part of his organization and should support his social as well as academic functions. Aren't you the college professor that taught me that when you embark on a career (even if it isn't life long) that you support it across the board? That's why you say you joined the appropriate professional organization, support the faculty club, get season tickets to the athletic events (OK you enjoy football and basketball), and always march in commencement?" He admitted that not only was it similar in his world, it probably was an unwarranted statement. No they are not mandatory in the sense that you don't have to return off planned and approved leave (regular or emergency) and with more married junior personnel with small children both the cost and the cost and availability of baby-sitters can be a substantial impact. However, "other things to do" and "don't like wearing the dress uniform" are pretty weak excuses for not supporting all aspects of your chosen occupation.

Response by SFC Erin Barnett made Jun 15 at 2019 11:28 PM

2019-06-15T23:28:49-04:00

Quit whining. They are no more than a couple a year.

When you put on your dress uniform and attend a formal event, its about even more than tradition. It's about pride. In yourself, your unit, and the military. The time it takes to put your awards together, making sure your uniform is up to date, should not be taxing to you if you are keeping them correct though out the year.

It also give you a chance to talk with members of your leadership you normally only see from afar, and gives them a chance to get to know you.

When you attend one of these formal events, you will stand straighter, you will walk taller, and you will feel good about yourself and your service. You cant help it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2019 1:40 PM

2019-06-16T13:40:35-04:00

I have been attending balls since 2004 when I got back from my first deployment as a private. love the tradition of balls and dine ins but I dislike that it is $45-$60 for a plate of chicken, beef, or vegetarian that never taste good and if you don't pay for the food they have started separating you and putting you at a table of those that didn't pay for food. What kind of crap is that

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2019 10:11 PM

2019-06-17T22:11:25-04:00

Throughout my career I have attended several balls, and I can tell you whether it is a multi-MOS ball or an Infantryman’s ball I have always had a good time. Trust me, I know that it’s difficult to pay for the updates to your uniform because and a NG NCO the money isn’t there so often times you have to come out of pocket. But the memories that I gained are well worth the money to buy the ball ticket and update my uniform and awards. If you are married, give your wife a reason to get dressed up and have a good time. If you’re not, find a date that is for the most part level headed and won’t act an ass in front of your chain of command and have fun! As a 68W, not sure of your unit, but if you are assigned to a line unit, you know your brothers or sisters in your unit will take care of you!

Response by CPT Robert Holden made Nov 5 at 2019 1:58 PM

2019-11-05T13:58:36-05:00

I don’t know that others were forced. I was never forced. I actually liked wearing my dress blues since I paid a lot for them .

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2019 2:32 PM

2019-11-05T14:32:54-05:00

All I know is that my girlfriend and now wife loves going to stuff like this. And I enjoy the after party activities if you know what I mean.

Response by SSG Danny Anderson made Nov 5 at 2019 7:05 PM

2019-11-05T19:05:41-05:00

It was only one time in my military career that it mandatory to go to a ball and that was because the unit paid for everything to include the venue, meals, ball tickets and drinks. Other than that it was optional to go to a ball. I personally went to every military ball in the 20 years served. I enjoyed the balls because of the comraderie but the history and traditions of that particular unit or branch. I also got the opportunity to meet and socialize with higher ups and establish networks which would help me later on in my career. In addition you also get to see the another side of your leadership in a relaxed environment that you don't see everyday. If you have a wife or a girlfriend, they would really enjoy the ball because they get a chance get dolled up and put on a lavish ball dress or gown which is something they don't get to do often. I have always tried to explain this to all my Marines and Soldiers who say they don't want to go to a ball.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2019 9:39 PM

2019-11-05T21:39:36-05:00

I'll be honest. It's because most other soldiers arent the best of people and it really comes out when they drink and "formally informally" come together en masse. I've gone to a few and enjoyed one. My other reason for not enjoying them follows in line with "I just spent almost a year with y'all and I'm kindof sick of seeing your faces". My biggest reason is my family doesn't enjoy going to them, and I will always weigh my time with them higher then a optional event. Like it or hate it this is how I feel about them, I personally enjoy wearing my Dress uniform as well, oddly enough.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2019 4:54 PM

2019-12-08T16:54:07-05:00

Nobody does balls anymore: that is a tradition that fell out of favor everywhere else decades ago. Why harm morale by forcing people to participate in an optional event they don’t want to participate in? Times change, and things fall out of favor: keeping a tradition alive just to keep a tradition alive doesn’t seem like the best use of our time or efforts.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2019 5:43 PM

2019-12-08T17:43:54-05:00

We don’t force people. We just say that if you don’t show up you are in trouble. It’s taboo. However. Getting off at noon and having mandatory fun in civilians as your duty day shouldn’t be that bad.

Response by SFC Bill Snyder made Dec 8 at 2019 5:55 PM

2019-12-08T17:55:59-05:00

When I was in, we never ad such a thing. However, my wife and I went to a Marine Ball in Paris, France. Now that was one hell of a shindig. Absolutely wonderful.

Response by SFC Don Ward made Dec 8 at 2019 8:37 PM

2019-12-08T20:37:50-05:00

If they were not forced to attend, the only ones there would be the senior brass and the butt kissers.

Response by SSG Harper Peterson made Dec 8 at 2019 10:16 PM

2019-12-08T22:16:35-05:00

As others will put it eloquently, I’ll answer the Marine Corps way: because you joined the military. A dining in, Mess Night, and Ball are all places of duty. They are optional if you feel like it. We work as a team, we fight as a team, and we play as a team.

Response by SPC Joshua Fahlin made Dec 9 at 2019 1:53 AM

2019-12-09T01:53:02-05:00

Hated military balls cause of the drunk assholes. I would buy the ticket show up and then leave after claiming I go the shits from the food.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2019 6:01 PM

2019-12-09T18:01:17-05:00

I see a lot of comments about Army tradition. Our history and traditions are important, but prior to retiring in April I see these traditions only being adhered to when convenient. Yes, military balls and dining in/outs are important, but so are the other traditions that seems to have been left out by a majority of the force. When is the last time that anyone has seen a true-to-form NCO induction ceremony? As the future inductees pull guard shift for three days prior to the ceremony. Each day the are approached by Juniors, then senior NCOs, then officers. There was a traditional script that was abided by.

What ever happened to, when a Soldier is promoted, their leaders pitched in and bought every kind of new rank necessary to ensure their uniforms would be ready?

Or simply and truly taking care of our junior Soldiers as swore to do. In my last three years in service, I saw more of NCOs bitching about the woes of being a leader then actually caring about leading. Until our leaders begin really fulfilling their responsibilities and caring about what they were charged to do, I don't blame our junior Soldiers for wanting to bail on these dog and pony shows.

Response by SPC William Weedman made Jan 26 at 2020 9:16 AM

2020-01-26T09:16:48-05:00

30 years ago I was in Korea. All companies of our battalion were spread across 4 Army camps providing medical support. 3 times while I was we had “mandatory fun” on Memorial Day, July 4 & Labor Day everyone not on duty reported in civilian attire, boarded a bus and rode to the post with Bn HQ. I went once. The other two times I was on duty or just ended duty. The one I went was boring for me. I’m not a softball or volleyball player so I just cheered my unit on, waiting for the BBQ to be served... Why? Unit cohesion. Several of the fellow medics in the other companies had gone to AIT with me and we saw each other again to say Hello but that was it. In October they reorganized the support units into support battalions and now the whole battalion was on one post. I left before anymore “mandatory fun” days, but Thanksgiving & Christmas were nice meals and a chance to give to the local orphanage we supported.

Response by TSgt Scott Hurley made Jun 8 at 2020 3:35 PM

2020-06-08T15:35:13-04:00

I never went to any dining-in/out or military ball. It seemed they were all under the radar, or not very well organized if done at all. And in some cases, only select people were invited (this I do not know if ever happened). Also, some would say the tickets were too expensive, which is a truth.

Response by LCpl Jakub Meredith made Jun 9 at 2020 9:50 AM

2020-06-09T09:50:34-04:00

I can honestly say that the forcing one to go was probably the worst idea ever.
You should go, absolutely. The requirements of paying for a ticket for a mandatory event is ridiculous. Being forced DID NOT foster any thing other than resentment in my experience. My first Marine Corp ball I wanted to go, was very excited. By the 3rd one I hated the whole thing. ALL junior enlisted marines were miserable, exhausted and we trusted our leaders less everytime. Why because if by some miracle you didn't have to buy a ticket you were on clean up detail. If not clean up then you blew 100 to 150 bucks to attend and spent the whole night being put down by your leadership. So I get not wanting to go, but if it was not mandatory and truly optional I would bet many more would enjoy these special events. No one is happy when you lose money to attend a required function. NCOs and up yeah ok require them I guess but you shouldn't need to at that point.

Response by LtCol George Carlson made Jul 19 at 2020 1:55 PM

2020-07-19T13:55:14-04:00

I'm sure this will come across as "old-fashioned" but my father (a WW2 Navy vet and civilian college professor) was strong on part of professionalism was supporting the organization beyond just assigned work. In his case, this meant participating in Commencement (which a lot of faculty don't do anymore), actively belonging in appropriate professional societies, supporting the Faculty Club, and buying and using season tickets to university athletic events. For me that translated to participating in the "voluntary" events willingly, belonging to a myriad of professional societies (MCA, USNI, SAME, MOAA, and MCEA as well as those associated with my subsequent civilian employment. I was "taught" and personally feel that it just "goes with the territory" much like employees of automobile manufacturers being expected to drive that company's cars.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Dec 6 at 2020 11:10 PM

2020-12-06T23:10:37-05:00

'tradition is peer pressure from dead people'
having said that - I've really enjoyed most of them - there were a couple that were all about somebody's political purposes that I despised
the most memorable one was in the national guard where there were veterans of the unit in WWII, and one that was in the unit pre-war

Response by SFC James Welch made May 4 at 2021 7:34 PM

2021-05-04T19:34:30-04:00

Obviously the Military has changed over the years as the type of people that are now part of it. Army life has always by necessity been a difficult one especially for Soldiers wives. Dinners and Balls have always been used as an excuse to get together and dress up in your finest.
I assume that as the years have passed and the popularity of the Clubs have gone away, so has the need and desire to dress up and mingle with your fellow soldiers. Traditions gave a purpose and the Military Ball and Formal Dining In is part of them. Try to see this as an opportunity to shine and enjoy the fellowship of your Comrades in Arms!

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Dec 9 at 2021 3:35 PM

2021-12-09T15:35:41-05:00

I've been to few back in the day. Griped the entire time up until getting there. I think all of us that got voluntold to be there enjoyed ourselves. It was good bonding with our peers & it allowed spouses to meet each other when normal activities didn't afford the opportunity. And really, how intrusive are one of these events? One night a year? I too see this generation having been eager to sign on the dotted line but now picking apart the traditions they are expected to follow. Go & have some mandatory fun for a night. You & your date may enjoy it.

Response by CAPT Dave Woodard made Dec 9 at 2021 4:32 PM

2021-12-09T16:32:23-05:00

First, and interesting comment ""don't like wearing the dress uniform". WOW! I'm damn proud of any of my uniforms (and as a Naval Officer assigned to a Marine Unit, I have 2 of everything except mess dress). Now, as you can tell by my pic, I was on my way to a dining in, where I was the brunt of a very very practical joke (PM me and I'll tell you how to execute it at your next opportunity. The military balls give the spouse a chance to see and hear what it's all about. there is a component of camaraderie that cannot be shared in the company/BM environment
We set up a "payment" plan for our major evolution Had the SNCO work with their troops and collect 5-10$ per month so there was no impact to the family budget.
If you look at some of the posts in Facebook you will begin to understand how important this development of brotherhood can be.

Response by SSG Thomas Elliott made Dec 9 at 2021 5:19 PM

2021-12-09T17:19:24-05:00

Went to a couple dining In's just to see what the fuss was about, A bunch of drunk senior NCO's and Officers, when i made E-6 I was told i was put in for and was receiving the Order of St Barbara, told this by multiple senior NCO's, after buying the ticket I was used as a go for by the 1SG and guess whose name wasn't called, Never bothered with any other functions after that. The type of leaders you have will be whether someone decides to go or not usually.

Response by SPC Eileen Keller made Dec 13 at 2021 10:38 AM

2021-12-13T10:38:24-05:00

I believe the events are important but some of this is the cultural shift. That being said, the senior NCOs and officers have a duty to teach and inspire the younger/newer troops. Have they been told why the event is important to the unit, about the social skills they will hone at such events that will serve them well in life, in business, etc.? However, I have to agree with those who noted that we asked some of these military members to deploy to the battlefield numerous times. So let's pick our "battles." Again, it's up to the senior NCOs and officers to fill in the gaps so the younger troops get it and become even better military members and people. It's time to inspire them.