LTC Private RallyPoint Member 140308 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>YOU are a rater or senior rater and you are told that you MUST give a Soldier that you think and know to be a toxic Soldier (Sailor, Marine, Airman, etc.) and underperforming and lazy a good evaluation. The basis is that he/she has completed some good solid stuff during the rated period and has passed their fitness test and height/weight. They also could claim that other Soldiers (Sailors, etc.) received the higher rating and they did not do as much or save as much money as they did. <br /><br />You were told to back off or the rater was told to back off from counseling the Soldier (etc.) as they were claiming that they were being too harsh on them. So there is little paperwork on the Soldier (etc.). They also repeatedly lie to you about why they cannot come in and often when they do show up they show up late, leave in the middle of the day without notice, or leave early. You once again could not counsel the Soldier (etc.) on this because there were other people in the office (military and civilian alike) that do the same thing.<br /><br />What would you say to the CSM when he/she told you that there is nothing that you can do but give the Soldier (etc.) a good evaluation? 2014-05-31T23:32:56-04:00 LTC Private RallyPoint Member 140308

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>YOU are a rater or senior rater and you are told that you MUST give a Soldier that you think and know to be a toxic Soldier (Sailor, Marine, Airman, etc.) and underperforming and lazy a good evaluation. The basis is that he/she has completed some good solid stuff during the rated period and has passed their fitness test and height/weight. They also could claim that other Soldiers (Sailors, etc.) received the higher rating and they did not do as much or save as much money as they did. <br /><br />You were told to back off or the rater was told to back off from counseling the Soldier (etc.) as they were claiming that they were being too harsh on them. So there is little paperwork on the Soldier (etc.). They also repeatedly lie to you about why they cannot come in and often when they do show up they show up late, leave in the middle of the day without notice, or leave early. You once again could not counsel the Soldier (etc.) on this because there were other people in the office (military and civilian alike) that do the same thing.<br /><br />What would you say to the CSM when he/she told you that there is nothing that you can do but give the Soldier (etc.) a good evaluation?

2014-05-31T23:32:56-04:00 2014-05-31T23:32:56-04:00 1LT Private RallyPoint Member 140319

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>CPT Maurelli,<br /><br />You were not permitted to document your observations without counseling the soldier?<br /><br />At least if you have contemporaneous written notes you would have some evidence.<br /><br />Warmest Regards, Sandy

2014-05-31T23:44:50-04:00 2014-05-31T23:44:50-04:00 SSgt Gregory Guina 140375

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Sir this sounds similar to a situation that I had with a Marine prior to getting promoted to Cpl. The Marine was always substandard and I allowed my Cpls and Sgts to complete the counselings on this Marine. Well when I went to look at the counselings prior to making my recommendations on promotions I was pissed off. The NCOs gave this Marine counselings that while not good did not highlitght the negative aspects of his performance. I was unable to Non-Rec this Marine and we had a Marine that not deserve to get promoted become a Cpl.

2014-06-01T00:48:40-04:00 2014-06-01T00:48:40-04:00 GySgt Private RallyPoint Member 140381

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I go by what the manual says, regardless.

2014-06-01T01:01:13-04:00 2014-06-01T01:01:13-04:00 SGM Matthew Quick 140383

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>What would I do? Well, since I've already demonstrated NO moral courage and NO backbone with the previous counselings, I'd give the Soldier a good evaluation (based on the 'scenario')<br /><br />If you are a rater or senior rater and the above is true, that person should be relieved and chaptered for being a spineless person and weak leader...PATHETIC!

2014-06-01T01:02:39-04:00 2014-06-01T01:02:39-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 140415

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Sounds like a lot of counseling. Just maintain your and that Soldier shouldn't have been an issue. Nothing happened if it's not on paper!!

2014-06-01T01:39:16-04:00 2014-06-01T01:39:16-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 140523

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Well first off NO ONE will tell me to give someone a rating they don't deserve. Secondly if they did do good things during the rating period those will get their due mention but that doesn't negate the others. As long as I can support the rating with counseling's there isn't a thing that can be done. Anyone who tells you NOT to counsel is basically telling you to be derelict in your DUTY as an NCO, not gonna happen here. <br />I recently had this issue where I counseled a SSG 3 times in a little over a week. First for disrespect and insubordination toward myself, the second for the same toward a commissioned officer and the third for failing to show for duty on time. <br />I was labelled a toxic leader and removed from the rating chain by the CSM.

2014-06-01T07:28:38-04:00 2014-06-01T07:28:38-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 140524

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>A direct order to. Back Off? Someone needs to make the reviewer read the regs again.<br />(2) The reviewer may not direct the rater and/or senior rater to change an evaluation believed to be an honest assessment.

2014-06-01T07:34:30-04:00 2014-06-01T07:34:30-04:00 SFC Gary Fox 140725

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>This is why documentation of counseling is important. Without the documented counseling, you cannot give a "Needs Improvement" on an NCOER. I've seen too many Raters when it's time to complete an NCOER on someone try to give a "Needs Improvement" only to have the NCOER kicked back because they did not have documentation to back it up.<br /><br />Also remember, when you conduct proper counseling and the rated individual follows the corrective action you must also document that. In that case the rated individual showed the necessary improvement and it should not be held against him on the NCOER.<br /><br />Example, the rated individual was late for work call three times in a month and you conducted documented counseling with corrective action. Over the next 9 months of the rating period, the individual has not been late. End of story and no need to make a negative on the NCOER.<br /><br />Example, rated individual fails an APFT during the rating period. You conduct a documented counseling with corrective action to be taken. Three months later the individual takes an APFT and passes. No need to put "Needs Improvement" on the NCOER.

2014-06-01T12:24:33-04:00 2014-06-01T12:24:33-04:00 MAJ Private RallyPoint Member 141328

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Unlawful Command Influence, you can&#39;t be forced to change what you believe to be valid and true. The SR or Reviewer box of disagreement exists for a reason.

2014-06-02T07:24:01-04:00 2014-06-02T07:24:01-04:00 1SG Private RallyPoint Member 141329

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Sir, you scenario is a tough one for me to comprehend. I would never let someone tell me when I can and can't counsel MY Soldiers! By allowing them to manipulate you and tell you not to counsel, you have set yourself up for not being able to do anything more than give a success. What about quarterly counselings?? Keep a running 2166-8-1 on your computer (or paper) of all things good and bad on your Soldiers that you rate, come quarterly counseling time, use that to counsel them. You are required to do quarterly counseling and the people in your office can't stop that. If they are, then you need to go to the CSM in your scenario long before it is time for the NCOER to be written.

2014-06-02T07:31:15-04:00 2014-06-02T07:31:15-04:00 SPC Ralph S Scott 141335

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Integrity or Politics. It's your choice.

2014-06-02T07:43:36-04:00 2014-06-02T07:43:36-04:00 1LT Private RallyPoint Member 141338

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I'd state that my rating is going to be fair, impartial, and in consideration of duty assignment, experience, and the environment the Soldier is executing their duties in. Then I'd state that my rating is my rating and that I cannot be required to change it by law. All of the above is straight from AR 623-3.<br /><br />Any red-penning to rater, senior rater, or reviewer portions of the NCOER by people outside of the rating chain have the legal weight of suggestions. They should be heeded if reasonable.<br /><br />The other part is this: Everyone is getting evaluated. If that rater is the only individual with a backbone and desire to do the right thing in their rating chain; then their next NCOER will not look good because they defied the "unofficial rating chain."

2014-06-02T07:51:59-04:00 2014-06-02T07:51:59-04:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 174753

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Give them a good evaluation then without proper ammunition and counselings you cannot rate or seniro rate or review someone who deserves less. That is why we hae a quarterly counseling on the enlisted side. If the rate risnt doing his job DA Form 2166-8-1 then there is no justification to rate less than superior.

2014-07-10T11:19:14-04:00 2014-07-10T11:19:14-04:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 384059

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Thankfully I have never personally been pushed like this. I saw it when I was deployed though when we were getting NCOERs/4100s. It was infuriating to the rest of us who busted our butts over the course of the deployment when this individual just whined and cried.. and it was all because he was a spoiled brat whose parents retired with rank or were highly decorated so they knew people and he had plans to get a commission and be a pilot.

2014-12-23T20:46:38-05:00 2014-12-23T20:46:38-05:00 MAJ Private RallyPoint Member 467338

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>No one can force you to sign an evaluation against your will.<br />I have had the unfortunate experience of senior leaders (1SG/CSM) reviewing a NCOER and recommending changes; but the changes cannot be forced.<br />If a Soldier if failing (to meet standard or show up) absolutely counsel them. All the counselings are proof to support the negative bullets on the NCOER.<br />If there is another NCO in the rating change have him/her conduct the counselings.<br />If the CSM doesn't respect your position or evaluation of the Soldier go to the commander or the next higher in the chain - do not settle. And PLEASE do no allow an undeserving individual to be pushed forward in their military career.

2015-02-10T10:06:13-05:00 2015-02-10T10:06:13-05:00 SGT Nia Chiaraluce 467436

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>After reading the responses on here, I am not surprised that persons are shocked to hear this actually happens. However, I have been a witness to this as well. I personally have not been given this type of directive, however I have been privy to the changing of rater and senior rater recommendations on the NCOER with either none of the parties present or just the rated NCO. I struggle with where or what to say to these types of situations when I hear my own commander give the directive that they need to be kicked back and changed by the raters. I can say with confidence that these situations are unit isolated and strongly driven by individuals that have good intentions, however it’s does not justify what’s being done. My only hope is that at my next assignment I am not given the directive to do the same, because I’ll be out a job assignment before I compromise my integrity. I will seek mentorship or NCOPD from the individual giving the directive, but if a midline cannot be forged I will stand by my evaluation recommendation.

2015-02-10T10:52:03-05:00 2015-02-10T10:52:03-05:00 1SG Private RallyPoint Member 468648

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I follow my conscience, every time. If the Soldier in question did what you say, they would earn their positive bullets for their "good solid stuff", and they would earn their negative bullets for leaving in the middle of the day. They might (you were a little too vague) earn a "NO" in values for Respect.<br /><br />I am completely unafraid of anyone who wants to use "undue command influence" to alter the Rater's fair and impartial evaluation, especially when it contains facts. I invite the Senior Rater to disagree, if he wishes.<br /><br />There is a misconception out there that there must be counseling statements to give a negative rating. Not so. There SHOULD be counseling statements, and if there isn't, I expect to hear about it from MY rater. But the regulation specifically states that a lack of counseling is not grounds for appeal.<br /><br />To answer your question directly, I would show the CSM the applicable passage in AR 623-3 and stand my ground. BS like this is why toxic Soldiers become toxic leaders. Not on my watch.

2015-02-10T19:39:54-05:00 2015-02-10T19:39:54-05:00 SFC Eric Hendrickson 507988

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>It depends Sir, do you have counselings and hard proof of misconduct, toxicity, sworn statements, hearings, bad deeds etc... If you have valid enforceable materials, you write the report as needed. The tell him to go to JAG if he has issues, and provide JAG with copies, never give them the originals, of the counseling packet. <br /><br />There is no good or bad report, only an honest one.

2015-03-02T22:38:00-05:00 2015-03-02T22:38:00-05:00 TSgt Private RallyPoint Member 566666

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>It was a rarity that I wasn't pressured to give a higher rating than the ratee had earned. However, I stood my ground and informed the endorser there was a "non-concur" block on the form for a reason. In fact, I can count on one hand the number of time I wasn't pressured and that hand may or may not have a full compliment of digits.

2015-04-01T21:42:16-04:00 2015-04-01T21:42:16-04:00 LTC Private RallyPoint Member 1177722

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I once had an SSG that was a good troop, wrote his NCOER but I felt I had to give him a "marginal" for promotion potential because he just could not make it through ANCOC. Therefore his promotion potential was effectively ZERO. The reviewer told me that I could not give him a good NCOER and also rate his potential as marginal. I ended up giving him middle block on potential.

2015-12-15T15:55:10-05:00 2015-12-15T15:55:10-05:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 1178798

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Hmmmm, well I agree with everyone here however if it comes to that and the CSM is insisting, then I would excuse myself from the rating chain and have someone else rate them! Perhaps the next higher up.<br /><br />However, this certainly warrants a use of the open door policy and certainly I would approach the next higher channel to discuss the matters. But it should have never gotten here in the first place! Under no circumstances would I allow this to continue from the start! I would have put an end to it! I had a similar senior with a Lieutenant West Point Graduate who told me not to counsel my soldier who I thought was on bed rest for a wisdom tooth surgery but that weekend she was supposed to be in bed rest she was out clubbing and drinking and all sort of God stuff! Anyways long story short, I went to the CDR and CSM and told them if I am forced to not write it I would go to BDE and request for assistance and also if that didn't help I threw IG in the loop and I was granted my wish!

2015-12-16T00:14:20-05:00 2015-12-16T00:14:20-05:00 SFC Peter Balfe 3983145

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Give the most neutral of evaluation bullet points, the kind everyone who reads them knows that they actually mean shitbag, and start your paper trail for the next one.

2018-09-21T15:52:48-04:00 2018-09-21T15:52:48-04:00 SGT Private RallyPoint Member 4077145

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I would stand up for what is right and not compromise my values. People will remember you if you&#39;re weak and also remember you being strong. You have a choice to make.

2018-10-26T17:51:43-04:00 2018-10-26T17:51:43-04:00 CW3 Raymond Mead 4155241

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Ask him if it is an order. Most will back down at that point. I had a first sergeant and my Company Commander challenge an EER and promotion recommendation for two of my E5s. We worked away from the unit on G2 staff. Their argument was that they didn&#39;t see them displaying the performance in the day to day company operations. My argument was that was not their assigned duty station assigned by them. They stood fast, admirably for them I suppose. So did I. I told them that if was ordered to change the.EERs in any way I would do so. Neither would go that far. The EERs stood and both soldiers were promoted. I suffered for it, but that&#39;s part of leadership. Efficiency Reports were a major issue at that time. Average rated soldiers suffered from those who were trying to change the system using their troops as examples. Oh, and the &quot;bullet&quot; I used that was challenged was <br />&quot; displays a level of dedication and professionalism rarely seen and seldom equalled by soldiers of her rank ang experience.&quot; The only soldier I ever rated with that phrase.

2018-11-24T18:41:20-05:00 2018-11-24T18:41:20-05:00 CW4 Craig Urban 4583549

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Stand your ground if you now he is a dirtbag or want it in writing and then a transfer. I wasุุ the rater for a SSG and the SGM called me and said they will laugh at it in DA. He made SFC. I told him do not call me again ever. Smash.

2019-04-27T00:33:35-04:00 2019-04-27T00:33:35-04:00 2014-05-31T23:32:56-04:00