Forced? YOU Volunteered! How can WE change this mentality?

SGM Matthew Quick — Thu, 20 Mar 2014 23:37:38 -0400

I'm noticing an up-trend with Soldiers and NCOs questioning 'why' they have to do certain things (just search 'force')...maybe it's because the site is growing ;)

Without bringing up the 'generational' or new/old Soldier theories, let's focus on how we can come together, Leaders and subordinates, and change this mentality.

Leaders - What can you do to instill an esprit-de-corps in your subordinates so that they WANT to certain things?

Subordinates - What can you do to have deeper appreciation for all the military has to offer and take advantages of certain things without feeling forced to do certain things?

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Mar 20 at 2014 11:42 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Thu, 20 Mar 2014 23:42:57 -0400

Leaders must always lead by example - without exception.

Subordinates need the standards & discipline so they mature into a professional force.

Response by SFC James Baber made Mar 20 at 2014 11:55 PM

SFC James Baber — Thu, 20 Mar 2014 23:55:33 -0400

MSG,

While it has been said time and again, if we get back to enforcing the standards which also includes doing what you are ordered or tasked to do without questioning why, as long as it is not illegal, immoral or unsafe it should easy to rid all of this type of mentality. While we want to guide and mentor our subordinates to understand the overall picture and to sometimes question for the purpose of learning and growing, it should fall under the context I already mentioned, if it will not hurt you, put you in jail, or be deemed immoral then there should not be a question, I remember when I was told and also as I moved up the ranks, do it first and if you have questions ask after you have completed the task/order given. Point blank, follow orders and then ask why after words if it still relevant to do so.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 12:07 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 00:07:34 -0400

society plays a big role in their sense of entitlement, therefore they believe that since they are entitled, everything they are told to do is forcing them?

Response by SSG Oliver Mathews made Mar 21 at 2014 8:36 AM

SSG Oliver Mathews — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 08:36:16 -0400

MSG Quick, Why are you forcing me to answer this? Soldiers and people have a belief that they are entitled to do certain things, act certain ways. They believe that their WANT and do not want is a requirement across the board. "I dont Want to do PT" "I Want to have black nail polish". Its the sense of Entitlement that causes people to feel forced... I know that without the army i dont have the discipline to wake up and do PT. so BEING in the army Forces me to be healthy which is a perk. Being in the army has Forced me to be able to get treatment for physical issues that i would have let go for far to long. another Perk. I remember my first Unit, we would go run 6-10 miles every friday, the entire company. All at a good pace for Cadence. Funny Cadence. Serious Cadence. I remember that as the days i looked forward to as a Soldier. Running up and taking the guidon and running at the front until your arm feels like its gonna fall off screaming at the top of my lungs. What motivated(s) me? Being able to change something or see what i have done to improve. How do i try to motivate my soldiers, ensure that they are taken care of, work with them on their goals. Be there to help them achieve their goals... Push them pick them up and lead them... I have had soldiers that hated running. How do you make them want to run. Give them a reason to run. I told a few soldiers that Every day that they beat me in a run i would let them go an hour early. (I cleared this with my NCOIC). After i found out that i was broken (long story) I changed the deal... 4 mile run first one in under 32 minutes got an hour off that day. It was my team and even when i was on profile i made sure i was out there Everyday making sure they did PT, Directing PT and providing a reason to do PT. At the next PT test my two soldiers where the only two soldiers to increase their score, and where given a 3 day pass each. Our jobs as leaders is to Motivate, Mentor, and Train soldiers. Sometimes the box isnt square.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Mar 21 at 2014 8:42 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 08:42:48 -0400

I've said it once and I'll say it again here. I truly believe if we are having issues with our subordinates (followers) then we are highly likely having issues with how we are leading them.

If soldier's feel like they are being FORCED to do things, then they are not being motivated to do them. Our job as leaders is to motivate. I think its just that simple.

How do you motivate? Build trust, educate and give purpose. When people understand WHY they are doing things, they will care more about doing them.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 9:35 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 09:35:43 -0400

MSG Quick,

What Soldiers don't understand that they are not force to do anything. All Soldiers have a choice DO RIGHT or WRONG. However, for every choice we make there are positive/negative consequences. That's why Leaders should award soldiers for their performance, so they don't feel like they are doing it by force. An example: Joe Snuffy is motivated during PT and got 270 on the APFT, recommend Joe Snuffy for a COA. Something as simple as a COA can motivate a Soldier to choose what's right.

Now if Joe Snuffy is always choosing to be demotivated, does not want to follow, and does not want to do RIGHT, then as Leaders we should enforce the negative consequences for making bad choices.

Personally, I believe that Soldiers that feel they are being force to do something is because it makes THEM FEEL BETTER INTERNALLY.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Mar 21 at 2014 9:37 AM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 09:37:14 -0400

Make training fun. If the platoon or squad is weak in the skill of a .50 then get it out, train them on how to break it down and do it properly and then have timed event and the winner gets out early. Engage the soldier as to better thereself. yes the training is the same and we do it day in and day out but some how engage the private to teach the class, team level, or squad level. Yes we all know how to break down the M-4 but give them the confidence of being in front. Also as a leader jump in and help. I understand that we have put OUR time in, but the soldiers see us doing it then they respect us more. I don't expect my e-6 or E-7 to do that, but as team leaders we should. not just say here is a detail and go and hide. jump in and get it done, the joe's will respect us more and do what we ask of them when the time comes.

As the jr member be the one to strive to be on the edge, be, know, do. If the team leader askes you to do something, do it to the best of your ability and don't wait for the OTHERS to help. just do it and then it is done. If we stand around and wait for the rest of the detail then it is counter productive. BE the one that the NCO doesn't have to wonder we'll I need to check on joe snuffy, because he knows that is done because You always have it done what you were asked to do regardless.

Response by CH (CPT) Heather Davis made Mar 21 at 2014 10:07 AM

CH (CPT) Heather Davis — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 10:07:27 -0400

MSG(P) Quick:

Respectfully, the heart of being in the military is serving and to model professional bearing and paying forward. This comes by teaching, mentoring, and laying a foundation of Military history. The paying forward, creates an intentional modeling of what right looks like.

The vital missing link to building relationships comes by pouring in the next generation. The lack of moral fiber is due to the rapid progression of promotion to the present-day military. I am a firm believer too much is given much is required.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 12:47 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 12:47:04 -0400

MSG,

Very good topic, as I have noticed this trend as well and was speaking to a
2 star level CSM about this very thing the other day. I think at the core we
all have to understand and ensure our subordinates understand that as a Soldier
we are entitled to 4 basic things. They are pay, purpose, motivation and
direction. Everything else is earned to include respect both up and down the
chain. Without getting into the psychology of learning and other factors, as it
has been stated before on this thread unless it is illegal, immoral or
unethical. Our mission is to carry out the orders of our seniors to the best of
our ability.

As a leader it requires first and foremost being aware of the privilege of
being a leader and the humbleness to never forget where we came from. And as
the NCO creed states ALL Soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership!!!
Also in my pursuit of civilian education in psychology I have taken quite a few
eye opening classes in respect to learning, motivation, punishment and rewards
among other things. I think it would do well for every leader to have some
instruction on these subjects, be it a college class or the development of POI
for our leadership schools.

As a subordinate, I have to understand that if I want something I need to
work to get it and there are times when I will be placed into a position to do something
that I have no or little desire to do. Also providing my leader with more
solutions and less questions or time consuming needs will produce a more
productive environment for all concerned. I have a responsibility to seek and
find the answers to my questions on my own before I bring it to my leader as
unsolvable at my level.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 21 at 2014 1:04 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 13:04:08 -0400

I think the "volunteer clause" is a bit of a cop out. They volunteered to join initially, sure. But it's not like they can leave whenever they want. The instant they want to leave, but can't because the military doesn't work that way, "forced" is a perfectly good word to use.
If we want to invoke the volunteer clause, then our contract expiration needs to be "at will".

Response by SPC David Wyckoff made Mar 21 at 2014 1:45 PM

SPC David Wyckoff — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 13:45:47 -0400

I have learned in the business world that the alignment of organization purpose with personal objectives can assist in morale and motivation. While the military is a different animal from the business world when it comes to authority, the principles are the same.

Some people are motivated by external stimuli, such as the Pvt who wants a three day pass so he will work hard and give 110% in order to get that reward. Some people are motivated by internal stimuli, such as the knowledge of a job well done or that their purpose of effort is going to assist in overall combat readiness. This type of motivation also might be the pride and esprit de corp of being a part of a unit that excels in everything it does. Understanding what kind of person you are dealing with goes a long way to building good morale and motivating troops.

Sometimes it takes a combination of the two types of motivation to get people moving. I mean who doesn't want a three day pass, right? More importantly people, in this case specifically SMs, want to feel that their purpose of effort is contributing to the organizational objectives. But with junior enlisted sometimes it takes taking them by the hand and leading them down the yellow line so they see that cleaning their weapon well is contributing to the overall mission readiness, for example. PMCSin vehicles properly, filling out reports correctly and in a timely manner, following all instructions...these are all mundane tasks but when you put them all together it creates a well oiled unit that is ready to do its job when called upon.

If I, as a supervisor, communicate the organizational goals to my subordinates and even further I explain or show them how our particular job tasks are involved in completely those objectives, it serves to provide a clearer picture for the person where their effort is being applied.

In my time in the military I ran into NCOs that would use the phrase "because I said so" when asked why. Why is not a bad question. It has to be judged in the context in which it's asked. If it's being asked in a flippant disrespectful manner then motivation is not the problem. But if it's being asked as a legitimate question then I don't see why the appropriate amount of information can't be given to help the junior enlisted understand what their effort of production is producing. That said, sometimes, the correct answer is exactly "Because I told you to".

Helping soldiers to see the big picture isn't just for that one moment when they ask why either. Helping them to see long term takes extra effort but the respect and unit cohesion might be a great payoff in the end.

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Mar 21 at 2014 2:09 PM

SPC Christopher Smith — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 14:09:23 -0400

MSG Quick,

We have had some good run-ins lately, I'm going to keep this 100% with the group. I don't think the military was ready to change so quickly by wanting to bring in a smaller and "smarter" force.

A person with a higher intellect wants to know the reason, they do not like to repeat themselves, and they do not like to repeat a task.

We need to change the word from "Volunteer" to "Contracted" the difference being, as a volunteer, once I'm tired of doing something I don't have to go back and I move on to the next thing. When you are on contract you understand that you are stuck with this job or item until the contract ends.

Now lets get to the fun part, how do we juniors to WANT to mop floors, go on countless mile runs, and the laundry list of things they don't want to do. I have a theory that if we brought back unit morale boosting, and got rid of "motivation" things would begin to change.

What is the difference you ask? Morale of a unit cannot be faked, if the morale is low things are not done with a sense of pride or care, it is simply another task that no one wants to do, get it done and wait for the next task. When you boost the morale of the unit everyone does their part to keep morale high, someone stepping out of line the group fixes them because they enjoy their freedoms, and are happy.

Motivation on the other hand can be faked. Motivation has little to do with quality as much as it has to do with just accomplishing a task. My motive right now is to finish this sentense, then move on to the next one.

Morale boosting is giving an insentive for completing a task (early release, no formation on Friday, etc), motivation is get it done and get it done now, or I'll scream or smoke you and you'll still get it done.

Response by SGT James Elphick made Mar 21 at 2014 3:15 PM

SGT James Elphick — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 15:15:28 -0400

There are certain things that we are "forced" to do in the military and I remember soldiers complaining about them. When confronted about it they usually gave some "I didn't sign up for THIS" or "My recruiter lied to me" crap.

However, I do remember a particular area in which we were forced, against our will, and in my opinion beyond the scope of what the Army should have been able to and that was joining organizations. I can remember several times in which we were held at work on a Friday until enough soldiers coughed up the money for a membership to some organization. We even contacted IG about this, who contacted the CG, who responded that this was acceptable behavior from our commanders.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 5:29 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 17:29:00 -0400

Questioning orders " in combat will get you killed period " if it is not you then maybe someone you know. The only questioning of orders should only be done if it is an unlawful order.

Response by Sgt Randy Hill made May 20 at 2014 9:35 AM

Sgt Randy Hill — Tue, 20 May 2014 09:35:05 -0400

I believe the oath of enlistment covers this well. I do believe that in certain situations if a serviceman knows why the how will come naturally. However, if someone yells incoming that is not the time for debate or quality circle meetings. Their is a time and a place for different motivational models of leadership.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2014 4:51 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 May 2014 16:51:20 -0400

I think a lot of it has to deal with history. Sure we all have to study the dates attacks and wars took place and who all died, but I think some servicemembers have no idea of the legacy they carry. I am a 5th generation navy man with family in all branches but the coast guard. One of the things that I find reminds me of that heritage is the national cemetery's. That solemn place of final resting for us. Some went in our sleep, others with blood running, others never recovered, those that have given everything for the liberty we have today. If I could have a say so as a leader, I'd take an entire day out of work, being my division on a bus, and bring them to the nearest one or to Arlington itself. I've brought over 10 people to them for the first time, and to this day every person I've had that opportunity with has always said they have had a different perspective on life.

Not only that, but is really that difficult to provide explanation of tasking? Most of us are not in a combat status, and therefore time can, and in my opinion,should be set to explain the tasks at hand. Everyone wants to play a part in something big, show them how the pieces for together into the big picture. Give them hope and a reason, and you'll be amazed what people can do.

Response by Sgt Jason West made Dec 24 at 2014 9:54 AM

Sgt Jason West — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 09:54:56 -0500

I think it all depends on what you are "forcing" me to do.

If it is my job/duty then you shouldn't have to force me to do anything. Lead me to do it, not force.

If it is some mando fun day or some great opportunity to serve the community by being voluntold to pick up trash in the streets after a local street fair or something...then yeah I may pull you aside and ask how I/we got stuck with "crap" duty. Especially on Iron Bowl saturday. Not saying this happened, but I have been a party to situations similiar to this.

Now, if each day you come into my shop and grab me or one of my Marines to sweep your work area or take out your trash or something like that, then yes I will do more than pull you aside and ask WTF you are coming into my shop and grabbing my Marines when there is a whole division to pick from (and in this case, Air Wing - MALS - AVI division...not a full ground side Division).

Retirements, change of commands, Mess Night, some others....these are things that I have been "forced" to participate in or attend. It may not be what I wanted to do, but we do it because it is expected. When junior troops asked why, I told them as one of my old Gunnys told me "Grab a straw and suck it up Marine!".

Marine Corps Ball, this I made sure each of my Marines attended at least one, but after that they had a choice. Holiday parties, unless it was a shop party during working hours I could care less about and don't see any reason to force anyone to attend.

Like I said, it all depends on the situation.

Response by SGT Timothy Updike made Dec 25 at 2014 9:11 AM

SGT Timothy Updike — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 09:11:26 -0500

Here's my take on this after reading several of the comments. you signed up for this and no twisted your arm, and also the younger generation who join, join for all the wrong reasons, and for this causing problems within the ranks. I didn't join so someone could pay for my college. I joined to Serve My Country the United States of America!

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2014 9:37 AM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 09:37:55 -0500

SGM Quick, The AF has a thing called Force Development and this goes two ways:
1. You are going to be forced to develop by completeting all your job requirements and CCAF degree. You are also going to be forced to volunteer from time to time to get a solid annual appraisal. This is your career and it is what you make it. If after your first four years you find that you don't like the AF, its core values and what we are trying to instill in you you can get out, but know this; we will have trained you properly and educated you properly for a smooth transition to a civilian job. If you choose to stay, we will continue to educate you and develop you for a smooth transition into a civilian job or retirement.

2. To many people join the military for the wrong reasons. College, dental, medical benefits should not be the sole reason why a person joins the military. Unfortunately these have become the number one selling points to our younger generation, because let's face it "How would you like to deploy for a year and eat MRE's twice a day" doesn't sell! There are ways to mold your warriors and motivate them to make them understand why it's important to volunteer. I had a your senior airman that was available to promote to Staff Sergeant for over three months. I asked him why he had not completed his ALS, he said that he was working on it. I asked him what the difference from E-4 to E-5 was a month and he told me about $400-$500 a month. So I explained to him that he had already lost $1200-1500 and how much more was he willing to lose? I saw the lightbulb go on and I knew that he was tracking!! Needless to say he tested three weeks later and was promoted two weeks after that. You just have to sell it! Put it in terms that they will understand and put it into perspective of something they value. For him it was $$$$