Fraternization: Playing Poker Officer & Enlisted

CW2 Jonathan Kantor — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 07:41:50 -0400

I love to play poker and I find it to be a great social game that can be a lot of fun. I host poker nights at my house about every 4 weeks, and we have a blast. Of course, there are some stakes ($10 a game) just to make it interesting enough to play. Without the money, there really isn't a point in playing poker.

Anyways, I would love it if I could play with some enlisted troops. I have a lot of friends who are enlisted, and the fact that I can't invite them really sucks.

My point is this: Should it be a violation of the fraternization policy if you play poker with mixed Troops, even if those Troops are not above or below you in your unit/chain of command?

I know that you can mix and match the ranks in a money game if it's a tournament that awards prizes instead of cash, while the take goes to a charity. If I were to do that, would I have to request permission from someone beforehand? I can't really find the answers to these questions so I am hoping some NCOs can help me out here.

Also, it's legal to play poker with an officer/enlisted if it's at a public casino. At least, how would anyone know unless you were in uniform... which you can't be in that case anyways.

Also,

Response by MSG Wade Huffman made Sep 8 at 2014 8:02 AM

MSG Wade Huffman — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 08:02:14 -0400

Sir, I see absolutely no problem in a public casino, anyone with the appropriate stake is able to sit at any table there. A game hosted at a private home (with the specific intent of having a poker game) may be a slippery slope even if there isn't anything specifically sited in regulations. Perception is reality in our world and it could very well create a negative perception, especially if someone feels 'slighted' by not being invited or if there is the perception of preferential treatment of someone who did play.
Bottom line, as much as I hate to say it, I believe it would be best to not include enlisted in games at a private home.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Sep 8 at 2014 8:05 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 08:05:24 -0400

You made your poll choices questions that can be yes or no. Take a peek at this old thread. https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/no-gambling-between-officer-enlisted-have-you-ever-participated-in-a-sports-bracket

No Gambling between officer/enlisted. Have you ever participated in a sports bracket? |...

We all know it's illegal for officers to gamble with enlisted.  We also all know that this happens every day whether it's march madness, NFL weekly, baseball, whatever.Is this an outdated rule that needs to be rebooked at or is this really merited?  Does anyone have any horror stories?  Or is this something that can be used to build morale and a little trash talk?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2014 8:19 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 08:19:35 -0400

As of March 1999, gambling between Officers and enlisted is strictly prohibited. However, it doesn't say anything about soldiers outside of one's command structure. The regs are there to prohibit potential unfair treatment and favoritism. You can't very well threaten good order and discipline of soldiers who have nothing to do with you in the scope of your military duties.
During the Civil War, there were many instances of soldiers, who upon enlistment discovered that the Officers above now above them in Command were former co-workers or underlings.
I haven't found anything explicitly prohibiting it outside the Chain.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Sep 8 at 2014 8:57 AM

CMSgt James Nolan — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 08:57:19 -0400

The problem (which is the reason for the fraternization rules) is that some leaders, and some troops, are unable to deal with the responsibility of multi-dimensional relationships. What I mean by that is: friendship outside of military, equal-peer-professional relationship (more typical of Guard) and the ability to have that relationship and then return to Military status and follow orders/not show favoritism. It is tough.

Based upon what you are talking about Chief, I would be ok with SNCOs (who are essentially management) being there. I would think that they could carry responsibility home and have it not affect the relationship.

Response by 1SG Mike Case made Sep 8 at 2014 9:00 AM

1SG Mike Case — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 09:00:00 -0400

As MAJ Winter's said in BoB "Never put yourself in a position to take from your Soldiers". Though it sounds like a fun thing to do and I even think that the enlisted Soldiers would have fun as well, all it takes is one Soldier at the game to complain or even someone who was not invited to complain and you end up in the proverbial creek with no means of propulsion. As an old CSM once told me, "the juice isn't worth the squeeze". At the end of it, you will only find yourself in trouble.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Sep 8 at 2014 9:00 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 09:00:02 -0400

Big no-no....even was hit upon in "Band of Brothers"....playing with your fellow Warrants or Commissioned Officers no prob, no Enlisted at all, not even Sr NCOs, period. Saves everyone the headache or embarrassment of something improper occurring.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2014 9:40 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 09:40:55 -0400

Well, I can see it working if there is no money involved and everyone from the unit is invited.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 8 at 2014 10:21 AM

SFC Mark Merino — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 10:21:31 -0400

I think to What Major Winters said in Band of Brothers, "Never put yourself in a position to take something from your soldiers." It might seem like fun and indeed it could be good cohesion but I would say absolutely not. You don't want to put yourself in a situation where your career could be jeopardized. If anything, do activities where money is never involved.

Response by CW2 Jonathan Kantor made Sep 8 at 2014 10:47 AM

CW2 Jonathan Kantor — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 10:47:46 -0400

I'm not surprised by any of these responses. MAJ Winters was right, for sure... but it sucks.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2014 3:33 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 15:33:21 -0400

Keep it the same, if you start to break through those barriers the floodgates will soon come crashing down. Your friends understand, and likely would not want you to risk your career over a small bit of fun.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2014 3:52 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 15:52:43 -0400

I think I voted what I thought; however, the questions are confusing.

Response by SSG John Erny made Sep 8 at 2014 5:01 PM

SSG John Erny — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 17:01:46 -0400

Should the Post CSM be able to Play around a Golf with the Post commander and Talk Shop

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Sep 8 at 2014 5:56 PM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 17:56:52 -0400

From my experience, I have found that, if you have to ask a question if something is OK or not, 99% of the time the answer is "No". If it was OK, you would know it and not have to ask.

No good can come of an officer or NCO playing poker for money with junior enlisted personnel.

Response by SPC David S. made Sep 8 at 2014 9:10 PM

SPC David S. — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 21:10:55 -0400

Don't think this is a good idea. What if enlisted welsh's on a bet or vice a versa. This could become an ugly mess. Would not recommend doing this sir.

Response by SSG John Erny made Oct 9 at 2014 5:47 PM

SSG John Erny — Thu, 09 Oct 2014 17:47:23 -0400

Does beating a butter bar at a game of chess count as Fraternization? :-) He was Butt Hurt!

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Oct 9 at 2014 10:34 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Thu, 09 Oct 2014 22:34:11 -0400

What SFC Mark Merino said. Couldn't have put it any better.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 8:05 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 08:05:53 -0400

Stick to Spades with no money involved, just points and bragging rights.

Response by SGT Donald Howard made Oct 12 at 2014 4:21 AM

SGT Donald Howard — Sun, 12 Oct 2014 04:21:32 -0400

I think in your case Chief,it would be OK as long as the game was played with nothing more than chips and no money on the line.May not be as interesting as playing for money,bu you would still be able to get together with your enlisted friends without the worry of it looking improper.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 6:56 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 06:56:08 -0400

I'm pretty sure the fraternization portion of the UCMJ specifically addresses gambling as one of the things you can't do. Should this be the case? Debatable. But until and unless it changes, I would not get involved in something like that with your troops.

Response by SFC(P) Tobias M. made Jan 20 at 2015 1:25 PM

SFC(P) Tobias M. — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 13:25:25 -0500

CW2 Jonathan Kantor since you are in Germany I assume that you are active duty. The rules are there to protect you as well as the enlisted SM's. I know that if you were to meet at a casino then yes by all means play poker together. If you wanted to invite enlisted to your poker games then have them somewhere other then your house. Again this is to protect all parties involved.

I have seen way to many officers and higher rank NCO's lose their career due to something happening or accused of happening. It is just not worth your career. If you have a poker night at the MWR building, Or somewhere else you take that chance and bring it from a H to an L on or CRM. LOL

Keep your career your number one priority.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Feb 25 at 2015 3:16 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 15:16:09 -0500

I don't think its wrong when nothing is waged however when I was in the field I heard a senior NCO yell, "Winner, Winner, chicken dinner" so I think he got a free chicken dinner when he won.

Response by SSG Sean Garcia made Feb 26 at 2015 1:50 AM

SSG Sean Garcia — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 01:50:43 -0500

I was walking around to stretch out my legs one night in a CSH. I noticed a group of Soldiers playing poker. Within the bunch was a Chaplain. I also noticed money and asked to speak to the Chaplain privately. Turns out, they were playing for pennies. The said pennies were the Chaplains and he always kept a bag full of them in order to break the usual grind with the Soldiers. After the game, all the pennies went back in the bag until the next game. I saw nothing wrong with this and even stayed to watch.
I felt there was no harm since no enlisted Soldiers were losing any real money.
Had there been real exchanging of money I would have ended the game immediately.

Response by CSM Mark Gerecht made Feb 28 at 2015 5:00 PM

CSM Mark Gerecht — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 17:00:15 -0500

As I am sure you know gambling is specifically prohibited by AR 600-20 paragraph 4-14c(3) Specifically it states:
c. Certain types of personal relationships between officers and enlisted Soldiers, or NCOs and junior enlisted Soldiers, are prohibited. Prohibited relationships include the following...(3) Gambling between officers and enlisted personnel, or NCOs and junior enlisted Soldiers.

As the old Randy Travis Song says: Trouble Always starts as Fun!
Now I love to play poker but would never invite a subordinate to play as it opens the flood gate. Usually the act of gambling is never the issue. Usually the issue happens like this:
A subordinate gets upset with a senior leader about some decision and then tells the leader if you don't change your mind I will tell your boss you are gambling with me and other subordinates.
Why lose your credibility? Why put yourself in a compromising position? When a subordinate sees you are willing to violate one regulation or law you put your ethics and credibility in question and they will use it against you or worse lose respect for you.

None of us are perfect...not me by a long shot. In today's Army one accusation of an ethics violation, a letter of concern or reprimand is all it take to lose a career. Is gambling with subordinates worth a career, inability to care for your family, etc.
Only the individual can decide what decision they make and what regulations, laws, or orders they choose to disobey. As the line from an Indiana Jones move says: Choose Wisely!
Chief not trying to preach...hope it did not come across as such

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Feb 28 at 2015 5:03 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 17:03:03 -0500

This policy should remain the same. No change. This is a great thread, thanks for starting it!

Response by COL Charles Williams made Feb 28 at 2015 5:09 PM

COL Charles Williams — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 17:09:18 -0500

No, they should not, and no it should not change. AR 600-20 prohibits this. This is what you need to do when you are an Officer in the Army, you need to decide (A) if you will meet (model) and enforce rules, regulations, and standards, and (B) if you can't/won't you need to find a job you can better live with.

Many problems we have in our Army if because leaders try to skirt the fringe of the rules, regulations, and other standards, when most things are pretty black and white.

Most things in 600-20, are there due to past problems and past precedent.

http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_20.pdf

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Feb 28 at 2015 6:41 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 18:41:40 -0500

There are few things that a leader should WANT LESS than to take money from his subordinates, even if it is part of a consensual poker game. I see where you are coming from, but overall this just creates too many potential problems for you.

Response by SPC David Shaffer made Feb 28 at 2015 7:31 PM

SPC David Shaffer — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 19:31:03 -0500

The policy is there for a reason. Fraternization between Officers and Enlisted could cause problems within the structure of the service. Just my thoughts.

Response by SPC Brandon Spray made Mar 1 at 2015 8:43 AM

SPC Brandon Spray — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 08:43:06 -0500

Yes, among other things.

While I was in, I played golf, allot of golf! I didn't play with to many enlisted, not sure why they didn't play as uch as officers. But we got a new command and they started to push this fraternization crap. The issue is when there is immature people that can't seperate work from home. I had cook outs with NCO's and played golf with Officers, yet at work they still got the respect.

It's about the individuals not the rank, older E-4 will have more in common with NCO's than newer enlisted soldiers.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Mar 25 at 2015 9:53 AM

Capt Richard I P. — Wed, 25 Mar 2015 09:53:02 -0400

"Never put yourself in a position to take from these men."

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Apr 2 at 2015 12:52 PM

Col Joseph Lenertz — Thu, 02 Apr 2015 12:52:49 -0400

Nope. Don't do it. Bad idea. Sorry, you may have the best intentions, but this can go nowhere but bad.

Response by PO1 John Miller made May 8 at 2015 1:41 AM

PO1 John Miller — Fri, 08 May 2015 01:41:34 -0400

The way we would get around this in the Navy would be to invite your entire division to your poker party and clearly state in the invite that there is a "suggested $10 donation."

That way everyone is invited, even if some choose not to attend, and there is no clear cut violation of the fraternization policy.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 11:41 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 May 2015 23:41:25 -0400

That is a very interesting question CW2 Jonathan Kantor, and not a short one to answer but I would say that gambling between Officers and Enlisted, especially the Junior levels is corrosive because it can destroy the inherent respect between superiors and subordinates. It needlessly creates vulnerabilities in perception and it is not worth the risk. However I do think that there is a solution to your dilemma that does not violate the spirit of the law at hand.

I have fond memories of one of my High School Math/Computer Science teachers and his lunchtime card game sessions that I attended for basically my entire high school education. Playing games such as Whist, Pinochle, Contract Bridge, Euchre, Rook, Hearts, Scum, and Spades and teaching them to new players was a passion of his. Now this could have been a very bad thing because of his inherent position of trust and authority over students, but he always maintained strict standards of conduct that set the tone for the card club. The purpose was to learn and new games while socializing so gambling was never involved.

So the gap between superior and subordinate can be bridged in a safe manner for the purposes of positive social interaction, it just takes some planning. Above all else there must be clearly defined boundaries regarding acceptable behavior because they will not only preserve the distinction between superior and subordinate, they will strengthen it. But you do need to decide if the risk is worth the reward. I think that efforts made by those above to reach out to those below and meet them on more neutral terms are worth it because of the loyalty it inspires. But you need to make that judgement call for yourself and decide if the risk is worth it because risks in perception can only be mitigated, they can never be eliminated.

Hopefully something in there makes sense and I wish you the best of luck with your efforts to connect the troops to their leaders and vice versa. I find it inspiring.

Response by MSgt Brian Welch made May 11 at 2015 8:19 PM

MSgt Brian Welch — Mon, 11 May 2015 20:19:55 -0400

I always understood it this way, the limits of fraternization are to avoid conflicts of interest. Sure, it's probably bad to take any amount of money from a subordinate thru "gambling", although $10 is trivial and poker has become pretty mainstream, but that's not the point. The conflict comes in because, although you don't work in the same chain, you can't predict when you might be in a situation where your rank and authority comes into play over that member of your poker group.

Let's say a commander calls for a board to convene for selection of a local award. You get chosen to sit on the board, the enlisted member is a nominee a has the best package in your view... what do you do? Do you cast your vote for him because he's most deserving and open yourself up to the appearance of favoritism? Or do you vote him down to avoid it.

Sure it's a silly example, but you could apply the same logic to a number of scenarios.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2015 8:55 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 11 May 2015 20:55:42 -0400

Definitely not a good idea. The only time I've played poker with enlisted gents was a situation involving friends I'd known since before I commissioned. Even then, I went into it knowing that if I won their money, I would use it to buy their food or drinks when we went out afterward, so I wasn't taking anything from them. Fraternization rules get murky if a civilian friend enlists or if you were both enlisted then one commissioned.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 10:27 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 May 2015 22:27:57 -0400

I think I can say that fortunately the fraternization rule with Coasties tends to be rather relaxed since we're such a small service, so we don't often see issues arise from it unless there is a harassment or abuse case. I also see that it can be much harder reaching out to enlisted than vice versa since you're then putting yourself out there to be thrown on the bus, whereas an grunt is typical just told, "No." But id say if you can make it happen as a unit morale gig, NO MONEY. As an Officer, you can issue morale-approved 'leave tickets' or tees, that kind of deal. In-unit is always the safest and most easily approved event between ranks, from what I've seen (also raised a Coastie brat, so I'm not the average youngin', haha)

Response by COL Peter Aubrey made Jul 29 at 2016 5:54 PM

COL Peter Aubrey — Fri, 29 Jul 2016 17:54:29 -0400

More years ago than I want to acknowledge, I commanded a 4.2 in mortar platoon. The FDC invited me to play penney poker. I was the big loser that nigt, I lost almost $2. A troop,we were haptering out for drug use claimed I was fleeching the troops with my great card skills. As an ass chewing from my BC - I swore never again. There is always that one guy that will use something like this to try and avoid punishment,

Response by Maj John Bell made Jul 31 at 2016 8:10 PM

Maj John Bell — Sun, 31 Jul 2016 20:10:40 -0400

No! No! No! No! No! Seniors do not gamble with juniors. I'd Hammer a Sgt for playing poker with a Cpl or a Capt for playing poker with a Lt. I don't care if it is for Crackerjacks or matchsticks. There is something called the appearance of impropriety. This sits squarely in the middle of it .

I didn't even stay in a civilian bar for (drinking purposes only) if I knew a an enlisted man was there. If I ordered food, I finished it and left.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2017 8:13 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Feb 2017 20:13:29 -0500

For what's its worth, I don't plan on associating with enlisted personnel outside of work once I cross over to the dark side. Unless I knew them before hand.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2019 11:57 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 23:57:41 -0500

There's a WWII cartoon by Bill Mauldin in which an officer in a line unit announces that he needs a couple of troops who don't owe him any money to go on a routine patrol. Any extracurricular activity that might impact your professional obligations to your Soldiers is the wrong answer.

Response by MSG Raymond Davis made Jan 26 at 2019 4:44 PM

MSG Raymond Davis — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 16:44:46 -0500

I have played poker in mixed company many times. Rank went from Senior NCO’s to Field Grade. It was a given that there was no rank during the game.