Given that at least 75 people were violently killed in 2016 on church/faith-based property in the U.S., should churches have security teams?

SSG William Jones — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 01:35:19 -0400

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2017 1:40 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 01:40:38 -0400

It is too bad. Sanctuary cities, what about Sanctuary Churches or places of worship?

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2017 2:00 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 02:00:00 -0400

I carry at all times. That's why it's called concealed carry...because you don't know I'm carrying a firearm. Those signs that say no weapons won't stop a criminal, so why should it stop me? I'm making sure I have means to protect myself.

Response by Capt Dwayne Conyers made Jun 18 at 2017 4:08 AM

Capt Dwayne Conyers — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 04:08:20 -0400

This is not a new thing, SSG William Jones. African-American churches were bombed and/or immolated for decades.

Also, some may remember Rev Billy Joe being sucker punched during his worship service some years ago:

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/BnzlJEH30vw

Preacher Gets Punched In Face!!!

Response by MAJ Bryan Zeski made Jun 18 at 2017 4:10 AM

MAJ Bryan Zeski — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 04:10:53 -0400

God's will be done.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2017 4:56 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 04:56:36 -0400

Security teams? I'd bet the odds of being killed on church/faith-based property wouldn't justify the cost of hiring a security team. Maybe the costs can come from the ever growing building fund, seeing how the building never actually gets improved.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Jun 18 at 2017 5:51 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 05:51:26 -0400

Churches are suppose to be places of neutrality, shouldn't need security . The world has changed a lot since I was younger, and it's changed for worst, not the better.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2017 8:30 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 08:30:27 -0400

Some do some have formal programs and others have well a lot of gun carrying members.

Response by SGT Robert George made Jun 18 at 2017 8:33 AM

SGT Robert George — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 08:33:08 -0400

Unfortunately people need to be on their toes when something premeditated comes along , I dont like it but you have to hit them Head On !!!!

Response by PVT Raymond Lopez made Jun 18 at 2017 8:59 AM

PVT Raymond Lopez — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 08:59:24 -0400

Since I am a retired career law enforcement officer with over a quarter century of service in the federal service alone I suggest you read a book entitled “MORE GUNS LESS CRIME Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws” by John R Lot. His conclusion is that shall issue laws, which allow citizens to carry concealed weapons, steadily decrease violent crime. He explains that this result makes sense because criminals are deterred by the risk of attacking an armed victim. As more citizens arm themselves, the danger to criminals increases.
He also wrote “The Bias Against Guns: Why Almost Everything You've Heard About Gun Control Is Wrong” This is another very interesting book to increase your font of knowledge.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Jun 18 at 2017 10:09 AM

LTC Stephen C. — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 10:09:55 -0400

SSG William Jones, I believe that many churches already have such teams, whether official or unofficial, and whether paid (professional) or just members of the church. SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth

Response by SPC John Parmenter made Jun 18 at 2017 11:37 AM

SPC John Parmenter — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 11:37:54 -0400

In 2007, at a Colorado Springs church, a former State Parole Officer volunteering as armed security, engaged a man who opened fire on church property. After the church security congregant (a woman) wounded him, the shooter committed suicide. Armed security at churches or other locations where people gather (VFW meetings, etc.) is a very good idea in 21st Century America.

Response by SPC Johnney Abbott made Jun 18 at 2017 11:57 AM

SPC Johnney Abbott — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 11:57:26 -0400

My moms pastors wife carries concealed. Churches being a place of neutrality is a thing of the past. The new generation has crossed/ broken so many boundaries that there is no going back. So thank you to the mental defects that have something to prove by proving it at grade schools and churches.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Jun 18 at 2017 12:10 PM

SPC Erich Guenther — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 12:10:31 -0400

Ehhh, what country are you living in?. Most churches I know of in high risk areas have a night watchman or security person or hire private security services.

Response by SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint made Jun 18 at 2017 2:36 PM

SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 14:36:10 -0400

How many people killed in Car Accidents. Ban cars!
Really, just like the Congresspeople who want security. I say MAN UP and go get your concealled carry permit. That would have stopped the problem at the baseball field.

Response by Capt Gregory Prickett made Jun 18 at 2017 3:09 PM

Capt Gregory Prickett — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 15:09:55 -0400

What's new about violence in churches?

"Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?" King Henry II, 1170 CE.

Response by MSgt Cayle Harris made Jun 18 at 2017 3:32 PM

MSgt Cayle Harris — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 15:32:49 -0400

Unfortunately, it's the world we live in.
I don't think most churches need dedicated security; volunteers from the congregation would probably suffice (as long as they have some training). Some of the mega-churches should probably have a professional team.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2017 9:27 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 21:27:30 -0400

SSG William Jones - I don't know much about churches - but I know armed security -- often the most visibly provided by uniformed police officers -- is a necessity for Jewish temples to prevent incidents during the high holy holidays - and during periods when threats have been made. Warmest Regards, Sandy :)

Response by SGT Aaron Atwood made Jun 19 at 2017 1:02 AM

SGT Aaron Atwood — Mon, 19 Jun 2017 01:02:09 -0400

Well, to quote the Patriot movie: A shepherd must look after his flock, and at times, fight off the wolves. Whether or not the security is official or not should be dictated by the local society. What works in one part of the country may not be as suitable in another. The end game either way should be something effective enough to prevent violations of a church's sanctity. This should also apply to any other place of worship including those of non-Christian religions.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Jun 19 at 2017 2:07 AM

LTC Stephen F. — Mon, 19 Jun 2017 02:07:48 -0400

Well IMHO each church should determine on its own or IAW its hierarchy whether or not special security measures including security teams should be set up SSG William Jones.
Risk: Security teams can dissuade potential visitors if they are too obvious or blatantly frisk people coming to the church service.
FYI, when I mentioned security teams above I was pointing out the dangers of security teams who are aggressive.
By God's grace I have spoken with violent gang members and other potentially dangerous people when God guided me to talk with them and take them out of the sanctuary area.
FYI COL Mikel J. Burroughs LTC Stephen C. Maj William W. 'Bill' Price Capt Christopher Mueller Capt Seid Waddell CW5 Private RallyPoint Member SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas SGM David W. Carr LOM, DMSM MP SGT SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SSgt Private RallyPoint Member SP5 Mark Kuzinski SGT John " Mac " McConnell SGT Robert George SP5 Robert Ruck SCPO Morris Ramsey CPL Eric Escasio SPC Private RallyPoint Member SrA Christopher Wright SPC Margaret Higgins

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Jun 19 at 2017 9:56 AM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Mon, 19 Jun 2017 09:56:10 -0400

Unfortunately, this is a real threat and not fake news. Two first hand examples:
1.) My fathers church in Tenn. A man walked in right up tot he preacher during the sermon and threatened him because of the marriage counseling he was providing him and his wife. He said the preacher told his wife some things that he didn't and was ready to kick the preachers nose up on his forehead. He was gang tackled and carried out in handcuffs. My fathers church established a security team after that. They lock all entry doors so outside entry can't be made but emergency they can get out after the service starts with the exception of the main sanctuary doors and place security personnel throughout the congregation in the event of an incident for rapid response.
2.) My church...three years ago on Fathers day a man entered during service and approached the pastor with his son carrying a backpack threatening him. We have a lot of active military in our church and that got the hairs raised up on our heads. Our pastor had never seen him. He was tackled and escorted outside with the backpack and eventually carried off by police but the pastor and congregation were so rattled the pastor just prayed and sent everyone home. Since then we have hired an armed security guard but there are other members of the security team that walk the premises during a service just for safety.

A church should be a place of refuge and safety. However, in todays climate there are no such places. Evil will lurk in anywhere and taking care of business favors the prepared. Unfortunately that is where we are. I will not hesitate to shoot someone in a church if they are threatening and shooting at my wife, daughter, or anyone else. I will pray for a precise aim and God's guidance to keep everyone safe. I HOPE IT NEVER COMES TO THAT!!!

Response by SFC William "Bill" Moore made Jun 19 at 2017 10:20 AM

SFC William "Bill" Moore — Mon, 19 Jun 2017 10:20:20 -0400

They should not have to have them, but, the church my family and I attend has Security through out the congregation. I also have a close friend that has recently started a Security Risk business, targeting churches and businesses, consulting with them regarding hardening their sites. Of course he focuses on other areas such as emergency medical response, as well. All said, I believe anywhere there is going to be a large gathering of Christians, Conservatives, LGBT (not the radicals) or Americans, there should be some sort of security consideration. ANTIFA, BLM and Radical Muslims have shown they do not respect life and will do anything to further their agendas.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2017 11:33 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Jun 2017 11:33:01 -0400

I can tell you that security is certainly an issue for churches. But security should not be the focus for the church. I carry a weapon in church. So do others that I know. We're ready to defend the congregation should the worst happen. But the church is the place where anyone can come, at any time. I have joked with others in my church that given my military background I could "lock this place down so well that SEAL Team 6 couldn't get in". We laugh because that mental image is the opposite of what the church should be.
Persecution is part of the price we as Christians should be willing to pay. Some will pay much more than others. When the Bible talks about persecution it doesn't say "if" it will happen, it says "that" it will happen. We aren't called to close our doors to it. We're called to spread the love of Christ in a dying world. You can't do that too well from behind barbed wire. So does that contradict me carrying a gun in church? I don't think so, because I'm just a guy sitting in the congregation who's willing to help when help is needed. That's different than the church itself, as an institution, implementing security protocols. I get that some may disagree with where the line gets drawn and am willing to discuss that. I don't claim to have all the answers here.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2017 12:02 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Jun 2017 12:02:06 -0400

It rests soley on the congregation if they would need to hire a security team or have some of their fellow congregants trained and armed. Also did you know in the book of Nehemiah when the Hebrews were rebuilding the wall around Jerusalem, they were being hindered by their enemies. So Nehemiah had a solution as a god-fearing man he told the people to have a sword in-case of an attack by the enemy while re-building the wall. The original combat-seabees. God does not condemn his people for having a weapon. It is a tool that can be used for good or evil. Like David say's in the book of psalms Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war.

Response by SGT James Colwell made Jun 19 at 2017 12:43 PM

SGT James Colwell — Mon, 19 Jun 2017 12:43:58 -0400

I believe they are necessary. I have been a member of an armed security team at my Church. It is a volunteer position with training requirements as it is an armed security team. Interview process and demonstration of proficiency and approval from Church Elder board upon recommendation from security team leadership.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2017 9:11 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Jun 2017 21:11:38 -0400

It's a matter of faith, I guess. They are protected by God but he wasn't around when Dylann Roof killed 9 people in the church at Charleston, or else looked the other way. So, it's up to the parishioners and their level of faith. If they eagerly await The Rapture then holocaust or hollow-point, what's the difference? The World has certainly changed over the last near 60 years I've been in it, and not for the better. We never locked our doors growing up and most left their car keys over the visor. Kids could play freely all over town and knew that if they wanted to eat they'd best head for home before the street lights came on. Parents expected kids to be out of the house all day and weren't concerned until you missed the evening meal, and then you went to bed hungry. A home invasion was when relatives came over for a Holiday meal, and murder or rape was something we only heard about in the news from the large cities. Too bad we can't turn back the clock because those were much simpler times. Hard to say what the cause is, but greed and hate have added their share.

Response by Sgt Pete Raciti made Jun 19 at 2017 10:13 PM

Sgt Pete Raciti — Mon, 19 Jun 2017 22:13:17 -0400

Sad times for sure, but there is a solution. If you want to spend your time an money on more video cameras or access controls, (all needed, but not effective in deterring the attacker), good luck. If you want to have your un-trained congregation, carrying, good luck. Houses of worship will likely lose their insurance coverage if they allow the un-trained to carry on the premise's. There is solution, one that will mitigate the risk of an active attack. The 3 things MUST happen to reduce the risk and save lives. 1) have a strong deterrent, 2) reduce rampage time and 3) apply triage much sooner. The Templar Rapid Response System is able to give your house of worship the ability to do those 3 important things to mitigate risk of an attack, and if the attacker is still committed, you will be able to reduce the number if lives lost.

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made Jun 20 at 2017 7:02 AM

MSgt Wayne Morris — Tue, 20 Jun 2017 07:02:30 -0400

Seems to me that would be up to the individual establishments. If they feel they need it then hire off duty cops but of the thousands of churches in this nation we are still talking less than 1% of those having incidents.

Response by SGT Jim Barrows made Jun 21 at 2017 7:04 AM

SGT Jim Barrows — Wed, 21 Jun 2017 07:04:59 -0400

We are lucky at our church we have law enforcement officers that attend our church pastor has appointed them with security I Mann the cameras yes it's sad we feel the need for this but as has been stated this is not the world we grew up in in the 60s and the 70s God bless you all

Response by SSG William Jones made Jun 21 at 2017 10:22 AM

SSG William Jones — Wed, 21 Jun 2017 10:22:03 -0400

I'm not sure your understanding the premise, LTC Stephen F. .
I don't think anyone in this series of posts has suggested that church congregants go rogue and start forming independent security teams. It certainly should be coordinated as an effort through church members with a leader and each individual having had ample training. All should be on the same sheet of music, so to speak.

Response by CPT Jim Schwebach made Jun 21 at 2017 9:43 PM

CPT Jim Schwebach — Wed, 21 Jun 2017 21:43:16 -0400

Given that over the last ten years there have been an average of 440 people killed or injured by lightning each year in the US, should we not require that Faraday cages be installed in sufficient numbers to protect our populace?

Seems logical to me as it appears one is six times more likely to be struck by lightning than to be shot in church.

Response by SSG Howard Dennard made Jun 22 at 2017 12:58 AM

SSG Howard Dennard — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 00:58:16 -0400

To put it bluntly, each person is responsible for their own security. There is no one closer than oneself when danger shows. Stop relying on others to protect you, even the Supreme Court has ruled the police has no mandate to protect the citizens.
Did your ancestors rely on the Calvary to protect them or did they rely upon themselves?

Response by PVT Raymond Lopez made Jun 22 at 2017 6:12 AM

PVT Raymond Lopez — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 06:12:57 -0400

I live in the Commonwealth of Virginia and I would acquaint you with the facts of life as they are down here. Virginia is a “shall issue” state. While you may see a carjacking in the District of Columbia the State of Delaware or the State of Maryland they are very rare in Virginia because the ladies down here all carry and quite frankly will tie fire to the asses of criminals faster than anyone and they do not play fair! I have been a firearms instructor for years and they have a nasty habit of shooting at the center of mass. The only problem is defined as the chest area and not below the belt. When I tell them to aim at the center of mass I am not referring to someone’s’ TESTICALS!! I know it was an accident I lost count of the times I have heard that one! To idiots who are stupid enough to target women I have two quotes from Rudyard Kipling “When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier.” And “WHEN the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride, He shouts to scare the monster, who will often turn aside. But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail. For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.” Besides what are those clowns going to with 72 virgins after you have circumcised them with a firearm.
Then you add in all the retired military and civil servants who live down here and the retired cops of all types and this is not a safe state to commit crimes in.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jun 24 at 2017 11:12 AM

COL Charles Williams — Sat, 24 Jun 2017 11:12:55 -0400

Yes, fortunately, yes that is where we are...

Response by TSgt George Rodriguez made Jan 1 at 2018 5:11 PM

TSgt George Rodriguez — Mon, 01 Jan 2018 17:11:12 -0500

Every church should learn protective measures, not for just shooters but disaster related events that can occur anywhere. Some churches have taken precautions and others have not. Those that have not are fish in a barrel waiting for someone to come in and create mass murder.