Has anybody successfully submitted an appeal against a falsified NCOER?

2016-05-09T11:32:52-04:00

This question was brought to me recently. A concerned peer is just now finding out about the NCOER appeal process. Their concern is the counseling dates were falsified giving the individual no time to rehabilitate from a 4/4 rating. Also, to clarify it's not just the counseling dates in question. What is the level of proof needed etc.? I personally have not dealt with this type of situation, but want to help them out the best I can without just sending them to the HRC website.

Response by CSM Chuck Stafford made May 9 at 2016 12:18 PM

2016-05-09T12:18:51-04:00

Have the NCO go to the HRC appeals site. Ensure they have all documentation regarding the situation. I'm not understanding counseling dates and tying them to rehabilitation. Without knowing the situation, I surmise that the rating is a result of the counseling -- The next rating period is the time for the NCO to put up or shut up.

That said, the NCOs 1SG and or CSM will have the latest greatest information on the appeals process. It does work when warranted.

Good Luck

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 12:21 PM

2016-05-09T12:21:40-04:00

I don't know what the very latest NCOER form is like, but in the past each form had a little blurb in the NCO's signature block saying words to the effect that he was not necessarily agreeing with the rating, but was verifying that all the admin data was correct, including the couseling dates. Is that still present, and did the NCO sign it, or is that verification no longer on the form? If he did sign it, it seems like it would be hard for him to appeal it later, unless I guess he says he was pressured/threatened to sign a false document.

Response by SPC Paul Jennings, J.D. made May 9 at 2016 12:32 PM

2016-05-09T12:32:19-04:00

It would seem the NCO is appealing based off of an unjust rating or underlying evidence to support such rating. It's a heavy burden to overcome since an NCOER is essentially deemed "correct" upon its filing. To overcome this, you generally need pretty clear cut evidence to support your claim, such as findings from a 15-6. Depending on the situation, an Article 138 complaint could kick start this process, if needed.

Otherwise, the biggest problem will be sending an appeal up the Army Special Review Board. The appeal needs to be clear, precise, and well laid out. Even then, they will likely deny it unless it's glaringly unjust. After that, it's the ABCMR, which is again very hesitant to overturn an evaluation minus clear cut error or injustice. It's definitely a difficult process, but it's one of those situations where there isn't normally any downside to pursuing the appeal since the worst case scenario is it leaves you in no better position than you started.

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made May 9 at 2016 12:43 PM

2016-05-09T12:43:40-04:00

And this is why I kept copies of EVERYTHING, including signed counseling notices.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 12:45 PM

2016-05-09T12:45:19-04:00

Yes it is possible to appeal a NCOER. If you can prove there is false information then go through the steps to appeal.

Response by MAJ Andrew Ready made May 9 at 2016 1:08 PM

2016-05-09T13:08:15-04:00

evals are important. bad soldiers often spend a great deal of effort trying to fix what they truly earned. Spend that time doing good at your job instead. future ratings and promotions will depend on it.

Response by SGT William Howell made May 9 at 2016 1:20 PM

2016-05-09T13:20:05-04:00

SGT Nia Chiaraluce Great post! I have not a clue about the appeals process so I find this interesting. I will continue to follow. Please let us know the outcome.

Response by SFC Andrew Miller made May 9 at 2016 1:56 PM

2016-05-09T13:56:52-04:00

One of the things the signature of the rated NCO does is verify the counseling dates. If the counseling dates were inaccurate, the NCO shouldn't have signed. Going off of AR 623-3, Chapter 3, Para. 3-4 (g.):

g. Although the support form is an official document covered by regulation, it will not be part of an official file used by selection boards or career managers. Failure to comply with any or all support form requirements will not constitute the sole grounds for appeal of an evaluation report. The senior rater will ensure that a completed DA Form 67–9–1 or DA Form 2166–8–1, as applicable, is returned to the rated individual when the evaluation is forwarded to HQDA.

So even if there are inaccurate dates on a 2166-8-1, that is not grounds for appeal. If the NCO feels their performance was such that they received an unfair rating, that is another story. This is especially so if the rater and senior rater comments and ratings don't jive, but I for one have only seen that one time.

I am willing to bet that the rater or senior rater did not wait a year prior to letting the NCO know their performance was substandard, regardless of what counseling dates were included.

Response by SFC John Hill made May 9 at 2016 2:04 PM

2016-05-09T14:04:58-04:00

See AR 623-3 Evaluation Reporting System, Chapter 4-Evaluation Report Redress Program, for information and procedures on appealing an Evaluation Report.

Response by SGT Nia Chiaraluce made May 9 at 2016 5:04 PM

2016-05-09T17:04:05-04:00

I was able to post examples of the NCOER in question. I copied it verbatim. Please weigh in RP I just couldn't believe they even signed this. However, they just wanted the experience over and done with, however can not career progress to go recruiter or anything.

Response by CPL Ricky Vasquez made May 9 at 2016 9:41 PM

2016-05-09T21:41:54-04:00

My PSG did once, the process took a long time for a response from the CoC.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 7:24 AM

2016-05-10T07:24:29-04:00

It's hard to find an NCOER on which at least one counseling date was not falsified.

Response by SSG Kristell Lee made May 10 at 2016 7:29 AM

2016-05-10T07:29:52-04:00

This is a very interesting question. I'll continue to follow up on it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 7:31 AM

2016-05-10T07:31:06-04:00

I'm reading this NCOER and I'm thinking, first of all, who the hell wrote this garbage? There were only 2 bullets half the time and most if not all were very vague. If I ever even thought about writing an NCOER like this, it wouldn't make it past the first-line supervisor's desk before it got kicked back to me. Second, there were points about the NCO being disrespectful and leaving a weapon unsecured, among others. If I were handling the appeal, I'd ask to see any and all paperwork written beforehand for said infractions. Also, I'd want to see all quarterly counselings. Lack thereof should set off alarm bells if you ask me.

Response by SSG Carl Sensabaugh II made May 10 at 2016 7:58 AM

2016-05-10T07:58:03-04:00

Go see the legal assistance office (JAG). They can or should help.

Response by SSG Carl Sensabaugh II made May 10 at 2016 8:00 AM

2016-05-10T08:00:30-04:00

Go see client services (JAG). They should be able to provide guidance.

Response by CMSgt Mickey Wright made May 10 at 2016 8:25 AM

2016-05-10T08:25:02-04:00

I had the same issue in the USAF, the supervisor lied and the Chief Master Sergeant and Commander allowed it. Your word against theirs. You lose.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 9:01 AM

2016-05-10T09:01:37-04:00

If the NCOER has not been placed in OMPF the soldier can request a commanders inquiry to resolve the the issue. If uploaded keep in mind the soldiers signature validates all administration information. The soldier can appeal once uploaded but will have to provide the evidence.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 9:05 AM

2016-05-10T09:05:08-04:00

In my honest opinion, regardless if its a 4/4 rating or a 1/1 rating... that NCOER looks like my six year old daughter wrote it.

Another thing, the values don't match the comments on the other side....IF he was THAT BAD you'd think he would have a NO in there somewhere

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 9:05 AM

2016-05-10T09:05:47-04:00

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 9:11 AM

2016-05-10T09:11:03-04:00

Team,
There is a lot of things not present here. I am like Paul Harvey and I am not sure we have the rest of the story. As a result of a lost weapon, usually there is a Field Grade Article 15 that the service member received. If that is the case then there should be support for needs improvement, not to mention Army Values should also be reflected with a NO in at least one area. Do you have a copy of the counselings, and more important the DA Form 2166-8-1? Depending on the age of this NCOER, the rating chain might be long gone.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 9:47 AM

2016-05-10T09:47:37-04:00

Have this NCO go to the legal office, they can help guide them through the AR and DA PAM for the appeal process as well as what is needed for submission. Legal can also assist with helping them out the appeal together and how to properly format and word it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 9:47 AM

2016-05-10T09:47:44-04:00

Response by SMSgt Rj Seiler made May 10 at 2016 10:03 AM

2016-05-10T10:03:11-04:00

My first suggestion is to take it to A DC and see what they have to say about it. Secondly, if you do not get results there, I would make a formal compliant through the IG process.
Just my 2 cents

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 10:17 AM

2016-05-10T10:17:01-04:00

I'm going to try to be brief on this NCOER. First of all, any "No" bullets on the front of the NCOER and "Needs Improvement" on the back HAVE to be justified with counselings. I was forced to write a 4/5 NCOER for a SGT and for every instance above I had a counseling attached and the draft I submitted was tabbed with see counseling dated "so and so" and attachment "whatever". To be fair and impartial I also included everything the SGT did well during the rated period. My bullets were also detailed enough to justify and make sense of what was stated. Normally the appeal process isn't all that great for the NCO. Even if you are justified in your appeal, the normal process is for HRC to black out that portion. Also, you can only appeal clearly erroneous entries and the burden of proof is on you. Looking at that NCOER, the front page does not concur with what is on the back page. Just from looking at it, I get the impression that it is unprofessional and personal. IJS Sorry, I guess I got too long winded.

Response by SGM Nathan Thomas made May 10 at 2016 10:29 AM

2016-05-10T10:29:35-04:00

What is the grade of this individual? Apparently they did not read the block to the left of their signature. The last portion says if they are in disagreement that they are aware of the appeal process in AR 623-3. Now, I can take this one all the way down the rabbit hole, but your friend needed to have read the NCOER. The other thing is that, they should have known when their counseling dates were and reminded their supervisor, that they were due for a counseling. I have been out for a minute, but I do not think that has changed. So, they cannot lay this all on the supervisor since they are an NCO and should have known better. I know this may sound hard, but their signature on the NCOER says that they knew as it is stated right on it that they know the appeal process.

This may be after the fact, but in their unit the 1SG & CSM should have inspections to ensure that the counselings are happening when they are supposed to. I call this taking care of your soldiers. There should be NCOPD held where this is a topic and reinforced on a regular basis.

Not saying this is the case, but normally when an NCO knows they are not doing well, they are not going after their quarterly counseling, nor or they asking for it. They know that by regulation once the NCOER form is submitted the counselings are not required to be held, but if it was negative, I would think that a good CSM would have asked to see the performance counselings with the NCOER to see if they supported the negatives as well as to see if there were improvements or not.

Now, if we have a negative, then the rater should be showing the rated person what they need to do to improve. They should be prepared to spend time to bring that individual up to speed. Evaluate is one thing, showing how to improve, taking time to ensure that the rater is there to mentor and give the additional training as need to ensure that NCO is performing to standards.

I retired in 1997. so I may be a little out there, but I cannot imagine things have changed that much!

Response by SSG Laird Peace made May 10 at 2016 11:46 AM

2016-05-10T11:46:15-04:00

As far as the dates being falsified, even the date of a verbal counseling can be used. However, for the specific negative bullet statements, those should have some kind of documentation behind them.

Response by SFC John George made May 10 at 2016 12:18 PM

2016-05-10T12:18:05-04:00

The individual must go through a Commander's Inquiry first. If this step is not followed more than likely the appeal will be shot down by big Army. Unfortunately, had the same thing happen to me, and found out the hard way....

Response by SFC John George made May 10 at 2016 12:19 PM

2016-05-10T12:19:40-04:00

The individual must go through a Commanders Inquiry first. If this step is not followed expect the appeal to be shot down by big Army.

Response by CSM Richard Green made May 10 at 2016 2:46 PM

2016-05-10T14:46:53-04:00

The individual does have to sign the NCOER and then put the appeal in. I know NCO's are busy but this is a must setting proper counslling dates. If no help was given, let's say APFT during a failure and the individual wasn't properly counselled for corrective action like remedial PT, then an appeal would have some merit. However, it's not like you're peer didn't know his or her shortcomings and a good NCO would take corrective action on their own to fix their deficiencies so both are at fault.

Response by MSgt Fred Gottshalk made May 10 at 2016 3:12 PM

2016-05-10T15:12:14-04:00

Several things that I learned while in the US Military, and then as a DOD civilian.......KEEP RECORDS, especially for the dates that were falsified (locate friends or others that you have been with) take the ER directly to the signator. They should have kept a copy. As a DOD civilian, I actually had a previous eval CHANGED, a year later, in an attempt to discredit me. The Commander that signed the original, was not only appalled, but "O" club conversations got it straightened out very quickly. I thanked him for standing up to his Officer's code "honor and integrity". There are still many with honor and integrity. Always get, and keep, a copy of ANY official paperwork that has your name on it...

Response by SSgt Kevin Craig made May 10 at 2016 4:37 PM

2016-05-10T16:37:33-04:00

Might want to send them in the direction of the Area Defense Counsil. Falsifying records is a huge deal.

Response by SSG Ronald Rollins made May 10 at 2016 4:46 PM

2016-05-10T16:46:15-04:00

Did the person sign a blank form? Did they see this? I would never have signed this. I had a command the wanted me to sign a blank one and said it would be good to go. I refused to sign and the 1SG and PL tried to hem me up for not following an order. You CANNOT sign a blank form. Glad I did not sign. We had someone who did and they sent up a bad one. He did not even get a copy.
In this case I would appeal this ASAP. THIS will end his career if he plans to stay in. Do they have proof of all the things they put on there? Just them saying it is not proof. They must have supporting paperwork. If they ask the soldier to sign blank counseling or to backdate them DO NOT do that. That is also against regs. I have seen many, many leaders do that. "Just backdate it. No big deal. Help me out!" I never would "help them out". If it comes down to who gets in trouble for stuff, you know it all goes downhill right? And who is at the bottom and loses the most? Go to S1 and start an appeal on this NOW. I agree with the others on here. Who ever wrote this, has no clue and needs classes. If the CoC let it go up, it is a poor CoC or just did not care. Either way it is poor leadership and needs to be called out. Your 1SG should have stopped this before it left the company. Then CDR. Hell the PS and PL should have never submitted such trash. Good luck.

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made May 10 at 2016 5:49 PM

2016-05-10T17:49:53-04:00

Was this NCOER ever signed by all concerned and submitted to HR Command? As stated by other I would want to see the counseling etc for all negative bullets. If this was submitted with out the concerned soldier's knowledge they have grounds for not only an appeal but the person who wrote this should be held accountable!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 7:27 PM

2016-05-10T19:27:26-04:00

I'm going to be "that guy" and direct you to the HRC website: https://www.hrc.army.mil/TAGD/Evaluation%20Appeals%20and%20Corrections

Evaluation Appeals and Corrections

The USG routinely intercepts and monitors communications on this IS for purposes including, but not limited to, penetration testing, COMSEC monitoring, network operations and defense, personnel misconduct (PM), law enforcement (LE), and counterintelligence (CI) investigations.

Response by SFC Joseph Dunphy made May 10 at 2016 10:12 PM

2016-05-10T22:12:53-04:00

Not directly. Instead, the situation I faced was, after doing evaluations that would stand up to an accurate statistical norm for our type of unit. there was considerable pressure from the company commander to skew all NCOERs to outstanding. Which would not be fair to other units who fairly did their NCOERs, and thus possibly deny a promotion to someone who deserved it more than the soldier who would get a "administrative false positive." Believe me, I got a lot of pressure, but I wouldn't change one, unless there was a case where it was warranted, and there were no seirous challenges. Believe me, I put a lot of work into those NCOERs, as I had kept records during the year to personalize every single one. IMO, there should be a system wide screening for excessive false positives. The pressure on officers for retention of troops leads to pressure to falsify NCOERs, and, in my experience, results in retaining some bad apples, who create at least 18x the administrative headaches than they should.
It should be noted that the Roman practice of decimation (eliminating every 10th troop during a discipline crackdown) has been adopted by none other than Harvard Business School, which preaches eliminating 1/10th of the group every year, just for the principle of decimation, to prompt competitiveness. A steady state pruning operation, in the long run, may be more desireable than the roller coaster feast or famine cycle of cutbacks one sees during military careers lasting two decades or more. Conversely, it is also damaging to morale when units fail to promote those that almost universally have won acclaim from the troops for leadership. The Army has plenty of good doctrine and guidance on how to run a proper system; the problems IMO center around the uneven application of these programs.
It was written somewhere that in Gulf War II, the Defense Dept. had some 700 or so management and operations computer systems managing both the US effort and the Coalition effort. One would suggest not just looking at the individual case, but where it fits into the system, because whatever system your unit is part of may well be skewed statistically also, resulting in a double whammy for the soldier with even a nodestly unfavorable NCOER.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 12:17 AM

2016-05-11T00:17:06-04:00

First off, are there counselings to support the "NI" ratings? All "NI" have to have supporting documentation. So, for each comment on each block will have to have supporting counselings. If the rater can't produce proper documents, then they can't put the "NI" in there. The PSG should be catching this, but in my experience, NCOs don't know how to do NCOERs correctly. I'd go to the 1SG and bring up to his/her attention and "appeal" the NCOER.

Response by SSG Edward Geer made May 11 at 2016 1:04 AM

2016-05-11T01:04:05-04:00

I had a successful appeal to an adverse NCOER. My appeal was for derogatory bullets (i.e.: Disobeying orders and failing to enforce unit standards, failure to perform duties in the field as the platoon sergeant,etc), dates of the NCOER (90 days after my reassignment to Bde S3, Who were the Rater (departed 120 days before end date, Senior Rater (less then 90 days) and Reviewer (less then 30 days).

If the NCOER has been signed the only appeal will be at DA HRC.

KEY TO A SUCCESSFUL Appeal (based on my personal experience)
1. Read the AR covering a NCOER Appeal.
2. Follow the steps listed to do in submitting an Appeal.
3. Obtain Documents, letter of witnesses supporting the appeal, etc.
4. Review and proof every document, letter, etc being submitted

Here's some of the stuff I did with my appeal.

1. Disobeying orders and failing to enforce unit standards

Provided a copy of the Counseling form that said I disobeyed orders and failed to enforce unit standards. Provided an extract from AR 670-1 and Post/ Division Reg. that showed the order was in direct violation of Army and Divisional Reg. Obtain letters from both of my Section Ldrs that supported my claim.

2. failure to perform duties in the field as the platoon sergeant,etc),

Provided a copy of my Awards citation for an ARCOM for the FTX mentioned in the NCOER. Obtained a Letter of Endorsement/ support from the Actual Bn. Cdr. for the time frame for the NCOER.

3. dates of the NCOER (90 days after my reassignment to Bde S3, Who were the Rater (departed 120 days before end date, Senior Rater (less then 90 days) and Reviewer (less then 30 days).

Submitted a copy of my reassignment orders. Submitted a copy of the reassignment orders for the Rater. Provided copies of the Orders and Assumption of COmmand for the Senior Rater and Reviewer.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 1:16 AM

2016-05-11T01:16:30-04:00

SGT Chiaraluce,
While the process is clearly outlined in AR 623-3, there are several things that bear consideration here:
Counseling is required, despite what is clearly a generally neglectful attitude. It is especially required when giving someone anything below a success. The incidents in question should have required a written counseling. Chapter 3 outlines the requirements in addition to the DA PAM. Please refer to AR 623-3, para 1-10 and 1-11 for an understanding of the required actions and limitations. There are steps that can be done to establish if the rating was justified, although typically the burden of proof would be on the rater, not the rated Soldier. An appeal through HRC must meet the guidelines in order to actually be considered, which essentially means that they have to be able to establish that the statements in the NCOER were materially inaccurate.
On another note, while I believe that the NCOER was poorly written and the Supervisor did a poor job in mentoring and developing his subordinate, the statements made in there seem to indicate someone who has a great deal of issues. Perhaps the best thing to do for the Soldier and the Unit would be to sit them down, as their peer, and be honest.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 4:22 AM

2016-05-11T04:22:18-04:00

Yes and I had a NCOER similar to yours. I can help you through the process if you would like. Keep in mind that the appeals process is harder because you have to the burden of proof ranging 60% or higher in your favor before the board will overturn it. You can also go through the ARBC Army Review Board of Corrections where the burden of proof is only 50% in your favor. If you need any more help send me a message and I got you!

Response by SFC James Swinney made May 11 at 2016 5:50 AM

2016-05-11T05:50:28-04:00

Honestly don't worry about that one NCOER. When the promotion board sees there is only one that is completely different,they will mostly disregard it. I had one that had a success, no bullets and said do not promote. It also had 4/4 blocks checked. It was 100%different from all other NCOER "s that I had. I made E-7 on my first look. You just have to make sure that this is the only one you have like this. If you want to fight it you will have to end up with the first CSM in your chain of command. They one who wrote it will have to show counseling statement to uphold the NCOER.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 6:16 AM

2016-05-11T06:16:33-04:00

They need to see Jag and they will have to do a sworn statement and submit it to HRC they can review it and make the decision if they want to remove the NCOER but there will be an investigation

Response by SFC Ronald Widiger made May 11 at 2016 10:19 AM

2016-05-11T10:19:00-04:00

I'll put it in simple terms. No. There is little that can be done unless you find someone higher in your chain of command that is willing to go to bat for you. It takes a lot of extra work besides the everyday duties you are expected to perform and that may not be even close to enough. In the end, NCOERs very seldom get overruled and sent back for re-evaluation. People don't like stepping on other people's toes. From experience, I had outright lies stated on mine and I pushed mine all the way to the JAG office and they said they would not get involved.

Response by SSG Warren Armitage made May 11 at 2016 8:37 PM

2016-05-11T20:37:31-04:00

He can appeal but the best thing to do is read the regulations and get with the personnel section. They would be the ones to get with

Response by MSG Pat Colby made May 13 at 2016 6:21 PM

2016-05-13T18:21:30-04:00

Never sign a blank form. I had Senior Rater (MAJ) that got pissed at me because I was looking out for Troops and called him out on several occasions when he was wrong. He attempted to put the comment "Needs to better adhere to the Chain of Command." I took that NCOER and delivered it to his rater, the COL Commander. She gave his sorry ass a sample of what his OER would look like if he messed with me.

No appeal required. Everybody answers to somebody.

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made May 13 at 2016 8:38 PM

2016-05-13T20:38:15-04:00

Take this to the I.G.'s office. There's more going on here than a crap NCOER. There are several reasons why this should have never happened. Several people aren't doing their jobs---Let the I G sort it out.

Response by SSG John Bacon made May 13 at 2016 9:16 PM

2016-05-13T21:16:02-04:00

That is some Garbage for sure. What did they do to piss off their CoC?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2016 11:51 PM

2016-05-13T23:51:42-04:00

To say I'm floored by what I just read would be a gross understatement. I've written some rough but deserved NCOERs in my time but even then, they carried the weight of truth. That one looks like it was written on the way to S-1 for final processing. If you're looking to put a substandard NCOER to paper... Qualify and Quantify, the same as you would a 1/1, Among the Best. "I will be fair and impartial..."

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2016 12:33 AM

2016-05-14T00:33:18-04:00

Is this a bogus NCOER? I seriously doubt a CSM approved this. For starters not one bullet begins correctly. Some blocks only have 1 maybe 2 bullets. And this NCO gets a yes in every block in the values column but has a rating of 4/4. It doesn't seem legit to me. However if it is I'd tell the NCO to request to his/her quarterly counselings and personal counselings. That will be the things they need for justification.

Response by SGT Christopher Premore made May 14 at 2016 8:25 AM

2016-05-14T08:25:14-04:00

Kind of reminds me of the NCOER I received for being medically retired. I received an email from forward with a NCOER attached saying that I had a terrible report because I choose the MEB process over a deployment. I was told by the Rear D CSM to forward it to the division CSM and use the open door policy. The 1SG was pissed but I didn't have to sign in and soon after all of my raters were reassigned.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2016 8:25 AM

2016-05-14T08:25:25-04:00

Duties and Responsibilities.... wow, talk about copy and paste. That a good way to get nailed for negligence. Also, where are the dates for event oriented counselings for all the negative events that are being claimed. This never would have made it past a 1SG or Commander performing a review.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2016 9:32 AM

2016-05-14T09:32:10-04:00

I don't see this NCOER making it past the senior rater much less a BN CSM. I would like to see the councelings that justify this report.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2016 2:21 PM

2016-05-14T14:21:25-04:00

If the counseling dates were falsified don't sign it. That is one of the items the rated NCOs signature is verifying.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2016 2:28 PM

2016-05-14T14:28:09-04:00

.44 Magnum

Response by SFC Michael Bazzell made May 14 at 2016 3:48 PM

2016-05-14T15:48:16-04:00

Tell your friend to step up his game or he is gone.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2016 6:38 PM

2016-05-14T18:38:40-04:00

I to was once handed a bad NCOER and when i asked the person to produce the counseling's and other documentation they could not. And when I asked my platoon leader about it he said that this is what the first sergeant wanted me to have. I then went to see my CSM and all of it was fixed and the first sergeant was left flabbergasted.

Response by SSG Eagle Tovar made May 14 at 2016 9:40 PM

2016-05-14T21:40:08-04:00

I believe that I will be called out-dated--I've been out of the Service for quite a while. But I do know one thing: even back in the 80's and 90's, the NCOER system was one of the most misused areas I ever saw. The NCOER system is vastly unfair--if you want to promote someone, they have to receive perfect scores. Anything less than a perfect score jeopardized the Soldier's career--even if the score was well deserved.

The responses I have read were concerned with fixing the NCOER. How about fixing the NCO being evaluated? I believe that it is unfair to automatically assume that the NCOER is in error...what if the NCO on whom this is written is truly a soup sandwich on moldy bread?

My suggestions:

1. SCRAP the current NCOER system. Use written comments and ratings instead of a numerical score. The closing paragraph should be concise, simple, and should have four choices: Promote, Retain, Reduce or Discharge. This idea that someone MUST be promoted or be discharged really shoots military readiness in the foot. How so? I knew Soldiers who would NOT make good NCO's at ALL--but who were masters their jobs, knowing their equipment better than some Warrant Officers. No, they weren't fully polished--but if you needed that system to come up quickly, you called these Soldiers first.

2. Put promotion authority back where it belongs--at the LOCAL level. I'm not talking about SSG or below--I'm talking about SFC and above! Think about it...who can better pick a prospective Platoon Sergeant--someone sitting behind a desk at DA with a magnifying glass, or the First Sergeant of that prospective Company? Should a Master Sergeant have their records sent through on a thumb drive, or electronically forwarded--or should they appear before a board of Command Sergeants Major, in the Battalion they are assigned to? Which choice makes more sense?

3. For heaven's sake, let's stop crucifying Soldiers for making mistakes!!! ONE Article 15 effectively kills a Soldier's career. WHY? I saw Soldiers who best resembled boxes of rocks--who received proper mentoring and positive yet firm correction from their NCO's who went on to become outstanding leaders. And PLEASE---let's not hear "there's no room in the Army for substandard Soldiers". Can anyone on this board TRULY say that they NEVER made a mistake early on that would have possibly killed their careers if they had been held accountable by today's standards?

Bottom line: why assume that the author of the NCOER was instantly wrong? And--why automatically assume that the subject of such an NCOER is a total loss?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 1:24 AM

2016-05-15T01:24:43-04:00

That NCOER should have never made it to HRC

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 1:45 PM

2016-05-15T13:45:43-04:00

Did he or she sign it??

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 1:58 PM

2016-05-15T13:58:32-04:00

Just rapid fire answer here: One, the example is from the old form, and is longer than the two year statute for submitting an appeal. The area of emphasis for that is that OEF 8 was a lifetime ago. Secondly, and most importantly, you cannot submit a 4/4 without multi echelon approval, so I would be pretty sure that it was vetted thoroughly.
Being that it is board season, I assume someone is trying to clean up their records. That would be more at a letter to the board situation. However, it happens frequently when we get new NCO's to our units that we get caught in the spin cycle. Bad NCOER's are usually earned. Very rarely does one make it through all of the signatures to HRC, with false narratives. If you suspect you are being railroaded, address it immediately. The situation never ages like wine. It ages like milk. Be careful with this situation. If this individual who received a subpar rating is acting clueless, but it made it past every step in the review process, he may be stringing you along. Sometimes, as leaders, we try to solve the problems of everyone in our scope of influence, when they are steady creating more for us.

Response by SFC Rich Goldstein made May 15 at 2016 5:08 PM

2016-05-15T17:08:34-04:00

Are you certain you're not being hoodwinked by your peer about this one? When I saw that NCOER I thought it might have been a sample of a bad one rather than the actual one. I just cannot believe the images provided passed muster and made it to HRC. I have numerous questions; Why does the duty description NOT start out past tense? Why is the boiler plate "(Insert Unit)" still in the NCOER? Why are no counseling dates listed? Why is the APFT date not in the NCOER? Why is there NOT a Yes or No for PASS? Why do the NONE of the bullet comments follow standard? Finally, how did this make it past the 1SG and CSM's eagle eyes to get sent up to HRC with these basic glaring errors? Things this bad just don't make it in my experience. The narrative is the next thing. It should have been questioned and then followed up by leadership at the time. Period! If deserved, well... There you go! If not, the soldier shot them self in the foot, so to speak. I read a comment that the NCOER is from some time ago. The reality of the situation is that it is likely too late to try to appeal if more than a few years have passed since those involved may have moved on to other assignments. Retrieving old paperwork is not an easy task. Best of luck though trying.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 5:59 PM

2016-05-15T17:59:45-04:00

All I have to say is wow. A yes I challenged one and they had to rewrite. It wasn't bad but it wasn't the truth

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 7:39 PM

2016-05-15T19:39:15-04:00

Actually, if you read the regulation, a signature is not required by a counseled Soldier on a 4856. The 4856 is merely a record that a conversation took place. The counseled Soldier can refuse to sign however, it is in his/her best interest to just mark disagree and write a rebuttal and get a copy of the counseling statement. If they refuse to sign it is recommended the counselor get a witness to make a statement on the 4856 that they witnessed the counseling session.
See, its not nice to start out a conversation with "wrong" SSG Penn.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 7:59 PM

2016-05-15T19:59:00-04:00

If the counseling dates were falsified and their is no proof of an initial counseling or follow up quarterly or event counseling to verify the Soldiers deficiencies then this NCOER will get kicked back to the command upon appeal to be rewritten. If this was reviewed by a 1SG or SGM and approved to move to the soldier for signature then both of them should be relieved.
As for fighting an unjust NCOER, one of the first things you should do is request a commanders inquiry based on the NCOER being unjust. The commander must conduct this inquiry into the your allegations of being blocked for "needs improvement" without counseling stating the standards or goals your leadership had established.
For example, I cant be told I need to improve the way I clean the barracks if I was never shown how to clean them and shown the standard they want them cleaned to before hand. (task, conditions, and standards)
If your commander takes no action on this matter, its time to go through the appeal process. Read DA PAM 623-3 carefully and make sure you have exhausted all avenues to correct this. Your timelines to correct this need to be met so don't hesitate once you commit.
Finally, you should feel a little at ease to know that whatever board see's this NCOER is not going to think any less of you but may actually feel bad that you served for such an incompetent command.
The AR 623-3 and DA PAM 623-3 are your resource on this.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 8:35 PM

2016-05-15T20:35:21-04:00

I've only had to write a couple (well deserved) rough NCOERs during my career. And what I did, just to end the fight before it begins, I include ALL of counselings (good and bad) that justified the NCOER in a folder with the draft of the NCOER so the senior rater and reviewer could understand where I justified what I was writing. Everything MUST be documented to the "lowest common denominator" so there can be no question. If you don't have it all in writing, you can't write a rough NCOER, no matter how much the Soldier may deserve it...and it would be your fault.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 9:45 PM

2016-05-15T21:45:33-04:00

This NCOER example never would have passed the platoon sergeant.

Response by SGT Patrick Gaebelein made May 16 at 2016 1:11 AM

2016-05-16T01:11:22-04:00

I had an NCOER where my signature, my platoon leader's and the CO were clearly forged. Not a bad NCOER, but the principle of the thing bugged me. I went to JAG was assigned a lawyer and he obtained affidavits attesting to the false signatures and the NCOER was removed from my record, the rater had suddenly retired and lacked patience i suppose. I ended up with unrated time

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 4:31 AM

2016-05-16T04:31:38-04:00

This looks like BS, as in there is no way this was submitted and approved. So by falsified I hope you meant someone somehow slipped this paper into this NCO's service record or he found it laying around as some sort of joke.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 7:31 AM

2016-05-16T07:31:53-04:00

My first question to this NCO would be was there any counseling done. If I was the senior rater or reviewer of this NCOER I would have asked the same question. When I was a Platoon Leader I had to make a hard choice to give an NCOER like this. My comments were not a vague as these and were backed up by documentation showing the pattern of incompetence along with the relief for cause memorandum that I did when I requested the commander remove this SSG from his position. I guess my point is there has to be documentation if you are going to produce an evaluation in this manner. The NCO needs to take a real hard look at themselves because it seems to me that the rater and SR are on the same sheet of music on the performance of this NCO.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 8:58 AM

2016-05-16T08:58:36-04:00

I'm finding it hard to believe that this is an actual NCOER. No where that I have ever been stationed would a unit accept an NCOER this poorly completed. This includes time in the National Guard. Also. this is not a current NCOER because it is on the wrong form.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 9:20 AM

2016-05-16T09:20:29-04:00

Someone get that Rating Chain an AR and PAM 623-3!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 9:34 AM

2016-05-16T09:34:27-04:00

Did the Rater put this in the NCOER support form? Let alone that NCOER is complete garbage! I wonder how it made it through with all of the signatures.

Response by MSgt Chris Chambre made May 16 at 2016 12:25 PM

2016-05-16T12:25:30-04:00

Wow, you all dont even want to know what goes into the USAF EPR and feedback sessions.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 12:41 PM

2016-05-16T12:41:35-04:00

SGT,

I submitted an appeal for an NCOER (successfully). If you feel the NCOER is unjustified, and have documentation to support your feelings, I suggest you put together your appeal and submit it. Ensure you read the regulation, the FAQ's, and the appeal worksheet to put it together.

In my case, It took aprox a 9 months to get the paperwork/documentation together (more than 100 pages of supporting documentation). I submitted the appeal and it took aprox. 9-12 months to receive the appeal response. The appeal process does work...it doesnt work quickly. In my case they removed the NCOER and mandated the Standby Advisory Board review all promotion boards that reviewed the specific NCOER as part of my board packet). The STAB recommended me for promotion and I retroactively pinned MSG (aprox 2 years and some change back).

There are other avenues to look at as well. First I would engage the support and command channels. If you feel it is justified, ask for a Commanders Inquiry or 15-6.

Key point to look objectively think about: Is the rating justified? Lack of counseling or incorrect dates are NOT grounds for an appeal.

The NCOER is not written as well as it could be. This doesn't mean the ratings are unjustified. There is a difference between losing a weapon and leaving one unsecure. This NCOER leaves more questions than it answers (which is not good).

As for the one/two bullet thing...it is allowed by the regulation. So this is also not grounds for an appeal.

Bottom Line: Advise your peer to self evaluate and approach the rater to discuss the rating if he can still do so. Even if one or the other has PCS'd have a professional discussion with the rater/SR to see what they can do to improve themselves.

Let me know if you have any questions.

MSG Lantz

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 2:31 PM

2016-05-16T14:31:18-04:00

If there are digital signatures each one has a date time imprinted into it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 3:47 PM

2016-05-16T15:47:20-04:00

IMHO, from personal experience. Everything should be documented on paper. Counselings, Support forms as soon as any derogatory performance happens. (This goes for POS and NEG things) If not. You WILL forget because of taskings and other things that come up. Then it is too late. Soldier will fight tooth and nail to get it fixed to his satisfaction even if it is true. Hard lesson learned, but it's a lesson. As for original question , go into the Regs and research. Do NOT take hearsay advice as solid fact. Email HRC . May take a week or two for an answer but they usually respond.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 4:11 PM

2016-05-16T16:11:37-04:00

I have appealed and had an unfair, untrue, and falsified NCOER deleted from my record. I am willing to assist this NCO.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 4:43 PM

2016-05-16T16:43:19-04:00

Counseling dates have no bearing on a Commander's Inquiry or the appeals process with HRC.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 5:17 PM

2016-05-16T17:17:11-04:00

Looks good

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 6:23 PM

2016-05-16T18:23:22-04:00

I applaud the individual for even attempting to keep poor performers from being promoted. That is the problem with our system. People are not taking the time to do counseling and are forced to submit a good evaluation. At least this guy had the intestinal fortitude to try and keep this dude from getting promoted. Of course all of you barracks lawyers are going to find a loop hole. Again, that's why we have so many substandard leaders. Lesson learned, go try but do your counselings

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 7:21 PM

2016-05-16T19:21:24-04:00

This is not an NCO in my opinion. Unfortunately we have lots of Sergenats but very little NCOS in the Army these days. Now we need to see were is the problem. First Senior NCOs are not really doing their job. I have seen lots of E-6 and even some E-5s appointed as PSGs while the %-7s in those units stay at the margin waiting for their time to retire and not assuming their responsibilities. Then you have 1SGs and SGM that let this happen. How is really at fault. Is our responsibility as Senior NCOs to mentor young Soldiers and NCOs and shape them in to leaders that one day will replace us.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 8:22 PM

2016-05-16T20:22:56-04:00

I am having the same problem

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 11:40 PM

2016-05-16T23:40:27-04:00

NCOER's and OER's are all bullshit. Either everybody's the most "wonderful" addition to the earth's population or they're the scum of the earth (and 98% are the former.) ALL of the "children" can't be "exceptional," unless one lives in Lake Wobegon, and, sadly, that is what these so-called "evaluations" have become over the past 20 years. Political "correctness" epitomized. is what OER's and NCOER's have become. Even the language contained in these documents is codified, specified, and dictated (in too many cases). it is the "Peter Principle" brought to life and it is the underlying reason we have the government, and the so-called "leadership" that we have in this country. No-one is willing to call "bullshit on this perverted nonsense and thus, we are inevitably doomed.

Response by SGT Ben Bearden made May 17 at 2016 1:50 AM

2016-05-17T01:50:43-04:00

Documentation would be the first thing that I would look for in the form of when / what corrective actions were taken and all of the corresponding information which would include the dates, infractions... etc. This would substantiate both sides, the appealer and the appellate body.

I don't know if this was the original or a reproduction but several things should have raised red flags for whoever read this. They should have known when their counseling dates were or questioned why they weren't added. The Army values don't match the comments, the bullets do not reflect nor give enough information. Substantiation should be a key in any evaluation otherwise nonfactual/falsified information could be presented.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 5:49 AM

2016-05-17T05:49:37-04:00

Hmmmm

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made May 17 at 2016 8:17 AM

2016-05-17T08:17:48-04:00

As a 1SG this NCOER would have been looked at along with the counseling statements and AR-15s. This Eval looks like one attached to his chapter packet, If not I would defiantly be looking at the rater and endorser for their lack of leadership.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 9:44 AM

2016-05-17T09:44:40-04:00

From a 42A and a squad leader point of view, the rater, senior rater, and reviewer on this NCOER NEEDS to attend a NCOER course. I have seen many NCOERS in my career and this is one of the worst written NCOER that I have seen. Most of the bullet points that the rater is providing should have reflected against the rated Soldier's Army Values Part IV. For example, disrespect towards rater and other senior NCOs and failure to report to mandatory formations should reflect against his Duty, Respect, and Honor. As far as the appeal process the rater should have some type of documentation to prove the rated NCO is not preforming to the standards that should have been established through his/her initial counseling. Failure to report to mandatory formations and unsecured weapon should have resulted in an Article 15, summarized, company grade or field grade, which would also provide documentation to the circumstances of the NCOER. The rated NCO should be able to file an appeal to HRC on the NCOER. Once the appeal is started the rater will have to supply the documentation to HRC to justify the ratings on the NCO. Failure to comply with the demands from HRC can and will most likely result in the NCOER redacted from the rated NCO's record. It is situations like this that makes the use of counseling's, initial, monthly, and performance based, important factors at the NCO level, as well as the attendance of NCOPD's classes conducted on NCOER writing.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 9:56 AM

2016-05-17T09:56:46-04:00

First and foremost NCO's counseling packet has to reflect whatever is written within his NCOER. If it is not then he has to justify with his seniors why is he giving this NCO a 4/4. I've dealt with bad leadership and have taken a situation like this to the CSM because some NCO's can be detrimental to your career. You may be more knowledgeable or you're standing up for what's right and they can't fathom the fact that you're doing the right thing so they see it as disrespect instead of noticing that you're a good NCO. So since they deem it as disrespect they attempt to dishonor you with a bad rating, but can't justify it. I personally took it to TOP and then since I didn't like his verbiage I went straight to the top and trust me when I say this! They were stuttering with the CSM when He asked for the counseling packet and the fact that it didn't reflect what he had written within my NCOER.

Response by SFC Olivero Rodriguez made May 17 at 2016 12:10 PM

2016-05-17T12:10:33-04:00

This is one of those thing you want to see the complete story, Who ever put this NCOER, as an example of bad work, needs to complete the information giving, at least right what he has done to help that soldier and the rest of the story of the thing he said bad about the soldier, when thing go on display wrong people tent to take it as they see it. There are a bunch of mistakes, but we need to know the story. While serving the military as an NCO,,, I had my times of bad soldiers that I had to let go, I tried and it was better to just send them home, at the same talking I had soldiers that I requested for them to go to school and promotion as soon as graduating from the academy. Good leaders do everything necessary to help their people. It is simple do the right thing by your soldiers.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 3:56 PM

2016-05-17T15:56:54-04:00

proof should be in the nco counselling support form , but this can also be falsified

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 4:39 PM

2016-05-17T16:39:27-04:00

this soldier would of been better off just copying and pasting generic bullets. at least get examples.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 5:46 PM

2016-05-17T17:46:12-04:00

There are too many discrepencies on this. 1SG should have kicked this back quick. Anything negative on an NCOER needs counseling statement to back it up and should have been submitted with it

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 5:58 PM

2016-05-17T17:58:11-04:00

With the new system the quartly's are also done online but as far as appeal get with s1 and call hrc

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 10:46 PM

2016-05-17T22:46:46-04:00

I cannot see how any rating chain would sign this. They know better. If this NCO was as bad as this NCOER attempts to make them look, why do they have all "Yes's" in the Army values? Why is this NCO a success in Competence if they have to be supervised? Why is the PT score listed when it does not qualify as exceeds the standard? Where are the numerous AR-15's that should have happened if this NCO was disrespectful, late, FTR and lost a weapon on deployment? If the bullets are to be believed, why does the last block state "Needs Improvement, Some"? Shouldn't it be more than that? This entire document doesn't make a bit of sense. Honestly this looks like something someone did out of anger, the rating information is not present, counseling dates are missing, appointed duties missing.

Response by MSG Jerald J. made May 18 at 2016 10:31 AM

2016-05-18T10:31:33-04:00

If this is even a real NCOER (I have to be suspect given the "insert unit here" on the first page) the wrong on this is astounding. In this day and age, without supporting documentation, and I mean extensive documentation, this won't make it past the S-1. That being said, it almost appears as if this was written by a substandard leader on his way to his new assignment and his last act of screwing a subordinate that he had a grudge against. I have a hard time believing this made it past the 1SG.

Response by SFC Frederick Roquemore made May 18 at 2016 11:40 AM

2016-05-18T11:40:13-04:00

Of course, the SM should go to request a round table about this with his supervisor, all those in-between him and the 1SG, and the 1SG. In that discussion, he should express that he disagrees with this NCOER (if he in fact disagrees). Then he should let them know that, before he appeals, he would like to resolve it in-house if possible. The only leg he has to stand on is that this NCOER looks to be motivated by a personality conflict and a personal dislike for the Soldier (not completely impartial). The Rater states in a bullet that the SGT failed to mentor his subordinates -- but how is HE (the Rater) mentoring his NCO by falsifying counseling dates and not putting it down in official counselings how this NCO can improve? I think the Rater needs to take some responsibility for the failure of his NCO!

Response by LTC James Bozeman made May 18 at 2016 11:56 AM

2016-05-18T11:56:59-04:00

I looked at this and I think there is a huge problem - if this person is so bad and has done these things on the reverse side how can the person meet all Army Values with a Yes? This would be the first flag to me. The second is the ALC, why send this Soldier to ALC - process for elimination if so poor. The third would be the counseling - as a senior rater I would like to see ALL the counseling done on the habitual tardiness, the misplaced weapon, the disrespect, etc. The fourth would be the UCMJ that would accompany this - to help rehabilitate the Soldier you need to have strong direction and some strong counseling. Seems that all of this is missing or at least necessary for such an evaluation - I don't know the situation or if it is warranted but these are the flags to me.

Response by SFC Robert Finley made May 18 at 2016 12:02 PM

2016-05-18T12:02:12-04:00

Personally, I think the rater needs to learn how to spell first. The bullets are poorly written and does not explain where the NCO needs improvement, only the incident. The NCOER as a whole does not have any thought process to it and looks like it was slapped together at the last minute. In addition, the rater looked as if he/she wrote the NCOER based on a personal bias and not a professional observation.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 12:14 PM

2016-05-18T12:14:44-04:00

Good or bad NCOER, this doesn't even qualify for Review! There is no way S-1 or anyone in the higher chain can let this pass. There's not even counseling dates for performance and standards! If it hits HRC this will be turned around so quick and someone in S-1/G-1 will probably get a phone call!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 3:07 PM

2016-05-18T15:07:45-04:00

List 3 different duty positions in which the rated NCO could best serve the Army at the current or next grade: Recruiter LOL sounds right

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 3:14 PM

2016-05-18T15:14:14-04:00

There is nothing wrong with this NCOER. There are no grammatical errors in the writing and the bullets are clear and concise. Stop thinking that $10 words need to be used to write an accurate NCOER. Also, the writer doesn't need to write anything for a success and a needs improvement just needs to be justified. This NCO needs to be less concerned about how well the bullets were written and more concerned about what they can do to improve themselves.

In addition, lets not bash this NCO for having the courage to accurately evaluate a substandard NCO and be thankful that there are still NCOs out there willing to do their job. I would like to shake the hand of the person who wrote this.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 3:45 PM

2016-05-18T15:45:14-04:00

I've been fortunate enough to have decent leadership that did not falsify my records. I am happy to say that. I hope it continues for the 6 more years 'till I retire.

Response by CSM Mark Gerecht made May 18 at 2016 5:15 PM

2016-05-18T17:15:05-04:00

SGT have them review AR 623-3 Chapter 4. And DA PAM 623-3 Chapter. Then check out our website ASKTOP.net. Search falsifying counseling dates. Or evaluations. There are several post related to the issue. As long as the Soldier did not sign the report they have a good chance

Response by CSM Mark Gerecht made May 18 at 2016 5:16 PM

2016-05-18T17:16:42-04:00

Last item is we don't have all the facts.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 5:42 PM

2016-05-18T17:42:46-04:00

The picture of the NCOER is not legit. It doesn't follow procedure at all so I'm assuming this is not the actual NCOER we're looking at. Counseling dates not being the actual day you sat down with the rater is not cause for appeal. Lack of counseling is not likely to overturn the NCOER. How many times do you need to be counseled not to leave your weapon unsecure? If you lost your weapon last week but retained it this week, are you now exceeding the standard and being fully rehabilitated? NCOERs that had successful appeals are removed from your record and a memo goes in its place.
To prepare the appeal, get some third party statements that may refute the facts recorded in the NCOER. Get copies of the rating scheme during that period to ensure rating chain was legitimate.
We recently had a SSG in our BN who was arrested for DUI. Through the court process he received treatment to plead to a lesser charge. Just because the court adjudicated it this way does not mean you can't write on his NCOER that he drove drunk. He tried to appeal because he wasn't convicted but was unsuccessful because he did indeed drive drunk.

Response by SFC Robert Bower made May 18 at 2016 6:28 PM

2016-05-18T18:28:44-04:00

I have and,,,, A GARBAGE LEADER WROTE THIS GARBAGE NCOER!

Response by SFC Robert Bower made May 18 at 2016 6:31 PM

2016-05-18T18:31:04-04:00

As a retired SFC I can say, there's alot of this garbage out there. It's a shame the reviewer let it go!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 8:13 PM

2016-05-18T20:13:46-04:00

Well question 1 is, was he counseled? If not, there's no proof and therefore must receive at least a success, 3/3, fully capable. If the first doesn't care enough to counsel it's their fault, appeal on that basis. Part 2: this should have been kicked back from the examiner, AR 623-3 states substantial comments must justify a needs improvement, and also it's written incorrectly. There should be a lowercase "o" with a space before each bullet. Whoever wrote this needs to be QMP now

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 8:33 PM

2016-05-18T20:33:10-04:00

I mean where are all the "o"'s before the bullets, pure amateur

Response by SFC Shane Funkhouser made May 18 at 2016 9:00 PM

2016-05-18T21:00:21-04:00

Well at least someone else wrote it. I had to write my own my last 5 years in as well as my own awards.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 9:34 PM

2016-05-18T21:34:20-04:00

Wonder where the CSM was during this travesty.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 1:10 AM

2016-05-19T01:10:03-04:00

The DA PAM 623-3 provides the framework for an appeal. He needs to involve career management officials, S1, and legal services (JAG and IG). The clock is ticking on substantive appeals. The redress program can be effective, but the appeal is on the Soldier. The Soldier is liable for producing evidence, obtaining statements and submitting the packet. The level of proof can be easy as having the leader who counseled the Soldier produce the counseling. Please keep in mind that the appeal is seeking to right an unjustified statements, they are not their to "change minds".

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 2:02 PM

2016-05-19T14:02:16-04:00

I don't know how, but my comment seems to have been deleted.

Other than the values not matching the ratings, I think this is a solid NCOER. The writer was clear and concise. I respect that this leader had the courage rate this mess of a sergeant accurately.

Response by SSG Ayron Hirschler made May 21 at 2016 1:57 PM

2016-05-21T13:57:40-04:00

First of all, this has to be the WEAKEST NCOER ever written. The "Values" certainly do not match the critically short "bulleted" comments on the back. Second, if you are a senior NCO that can not come up with more than one bullet for a comment, then you shouldn't be writing the NCOER in the first place and probably need to be trained and retrained on the very basics of NCOER writing. This looks to me like a last minute pencil whip on a soldier (apparently, not too high speed) that the leadership has given up on or is too lazy to pull make right. If this NCO is debating falsification of the counseling dates and not his/her conduct, I think we all know the bottom line here. I hate to be critical but it feels like a shit bag NCO trying to wiggle his way out of getting kicked out eventually. We have all dealt with the same kind... buck up, shut up, and do your job!!!

Response by SCPO John-florida Killin made May 24 at 2016 8:40 PM

2016-05-24T20:40:30-04:00

What's ALC, as in "Send to ALC when NCO is ready." If this is some kind of leadership school, don't waste your time or money.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2016 9:59 PM

2016-05-25T21:59:18-04:00

So yeah. Got it. There isn't a lot of quantifiable info. Do yall really want your buddies eval to state in more graphic detail about why he deserved a 4\4?!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2016 1:43 PM

2016-05-27T13:43:21-04:00

From my experience the Appeal process is just to satiate the rated NCO. I filed an appeal based on the NCOER being completely falsified. The rater was wrong, the counseling dates were wrong, and the duty position was wrong. I had a well written evidence filled appeal, it was returned with them stating there wasn't enough evidence. I was a bit confused, I wondered how someone who was on rear d was able to write a NCOER for a NCO that was deployed for 6 of the 8 rated months. Even after the deployment the MTOE remained split between rear d and the forward element. The duty position on my ERB and NCOER did not match up but hey, you can give it a shot. Make sure you use Army resources, I wouldn't want you to waste your money.

Response by SPC Marshall Hancock made May 28 at 2016 5:10 PM

2016-05-28T17:10:46-04:00

It's kind of hard to respond considering this NCOER isn't complete. From what is shown, the admin data has not been completed, it's not signed. The bullets on the back are not in the correct format. It's 25U2O not 25U20. The 3 positions the SM could best serve the Army (Section Chief, AIT instructor, and Recruiter) do not reflect the statement 'unsure of future leadership potential of this NCO.' APFT date is missing. Army Values were all checked yes with comment 'learns from mistakes' contradicts 'failed to take responsibility for own actions.' This NCOER wouldn't have made it past a 1SG, much less a CSM review. I worked in S-1 reviewing NCOERs for years. I wouldn't have sent this to the CSM for fear of getting my you know what chewed out for wasting his time. Plus he would have lit up the 1SG for sending up some garbage like this.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2016 6:29 PM

2016-05-29T18:29:01-04:00

Many times, I had raters who created NCOER's and the comments shown described the raters more than those with whom they were rating. At least that's been my experience. Moreover, today's promotions seem to center less around performance and more around "who do we like to fill the slot..." The buddy system is so prevalent, that retention is often jeopardized due to doctored and inaccurate reporting. It disinfranchises good troops. There really is no secret to this...if you're in a good, quality unit, your experiences and motivations will happen automatically.

Response by PO3 Carlston Solar made May 29 at 2016 9:19 PM

2016-05-29T21:19:33-04:00

Welfare of two? Hell as a E4 I had to section leader for like 300 awaiting sub school students. That looks very 3.0 vanilla

Response by SFC Ronald Widiger made Jun 2 at 2016 1:49 PM

2016-06-02T13:49:39-04:00

I wish this forum had existed when I had problems with a CSM who was rater and wrote LIES on my NCOER during my 26 year career. He had zero paper to back his comments and there was NEVER any counseling of any form done. I took it directly to my commander (colonel) and basically blew me off, saying he had faith in whatever he did/does. Beer drinkin' buddies at the club afterwards!

Response by SFC Malcolm Haugen made Aug 23 at 2016 10:25 AM

2016-08-23T10:25:18-04:00

Something similar happened to my as a young E-5. I arrived in Germany to meet up with my new BMS. Almost immediately we we butting heads. For the three years he had it out for me. Before I got to the unit, my previous unit wrote true and honest ERs. With this BMS I was made to look like trash. I'm not a quitter, so I fought on. Things got worse. Soon the Warrant Officer, BMT, got involved. My immediate boss, an E-6 never lifted a finger but instead gave in to the BMS pressure. These bad ERs almost destroyed my career. Through proper channels, this was all resolved. Regardless if your the writer of of receiver of a ER, be honest. If you feel the ER is unjust, stand up for yourself.

Response by SSG Curtis Dietrich made Aug 23 at 2016 11:47 AM

2016-08-23T11:47:22-04:00

There should be quantitative data supporting this NCO's accomplishments. There is nothing specific and it is very short. Should not make it through first line leader.

Response by SGM Debra Bradshaw made Aug 24 at 2016 11:47 AM

2016-08-24T11:47:46-04:00

The best way to get an NCO ER that properly reflects performance is for that person to draft their own NCO ER.

Response by CSM Csm Jones made Aug 25 at 2016 1:20 PM

2016-08-25T13:20:31-04:00

It's funny that someone would Bring up the NCOER it's been a pain in my side for a wile, if you don't set up your schedule for your people and yourself to do great work for your company your writing and NCOER will reflect that, so the key to solve that is staying true to training and volunteer your people for every thing that would promote them. As for the NCOER, I believe that the format should be changed, ask the same question but it should be don in letter format for all question, because for most people the question don't reflect there jobs and what they do and or the things that they do for that year. counseling is key every month.

Response by SGT Robert K. made Dec 22 at 2016 4:40 PM

2016-12-22T16:40:07-05:00

I had a 1SG attempt to write a bad NCOER for me, pretty simple when the NCOER was sent to me for review prior to signature I pulled out the regulations and went block by block making notes of errors or areas of concern, (to start with my SSN, Status and MOS were incorrect) There were also errors were he attempted to make a statement about me losing organizational equipment as the supply NCO (no equipment was lost and all equipment was physically accounted for by the commander and my supply clerk - the regulation also states that for this issue no statement maybe placed in the NCOER until the investigation is completed (there was no investigation). Once this was done I sent it back to the personal who sent it to me (the BN S-1 OIC and the BN Commander (senior reviewer). Got called to battalion headquarters, discussed the areas of concern and errors with the same people and the 1SG had to make the correction.
MY ADVICE - pull out the regulation ; go block by block - make your notes and present it to the S-1. - Be nice about it - do your research - make sure you understand what is there and why.

Response by MSG Keith Folger made Jun 29 at 2017 2:54 PM

2017-06-29T14:54:37-04:00

Heres the truth: ncoers are largely "subjective" (see the reg)
That means no documentation of any counseling is required despite what the reg says. Counseling is often skipped and any period of time can be considered your one shot at rehabiltation (example: you get your ass handed to you and are forced to do a made up job, then the command does a counseling form 30 days later stating you've had a chance to improve and you failed so its time to eliminate you)
Now, if you request it your appeal is assisted by trial defense, you assemble the supporting letters and docs and send the appeal. I promise you it will be returned denied in your case. The appeals board with cite the "subjective" blurb and that your witnesses "didnt have knowledge of the event or your duties" (despite the statements you have stating they do) and even with TD writing a letter to point out the errors, remember the reg says lack of counseling wont help you. Basically you need to wait until its time to leave that job and start fresh somewhere else. Sorry to burst anyone's balloons but that's real world scenario.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 7 at 2017 11:35 AM

2017-07-07T11:35:48-04:00

I had a similar issue I did a commanders inquiry it came back favorable on me for administrative errors forbiddened narratives unproven derogatory statements etc. it got submitted the inquiry which proved the ncoer was invalid and the board saw it and gave me a personal call about it. Bad part is the wait if you aren't a priority 1

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2018 7:55 PM

2018-06-06T19:55:35-04:00

Anyone have any appeal memo examples ?

Response by SFC John Queen made May 12 at 2020 8:29 PM

2020-05-12T20:29:40-04:00

Always nice when a rater can add insult to injury out of spite... even worse when the rater's friend (who is new to the command team) backs him up without actually even knowing the rated NCO.