Has anyone had incidents with live rounds and blank firing adapters?

2016-05-19T13:38:05-04:00

There was a post about a soldier shooting a helicopter. He somehow ended up with live rounds instead of blanks. It seems that this has happens more often than we thought. While nobody was hurt, there is a real safety concern.

If you have a story about his happening please share. The more information about how it happened and why may be of help for leaders to prevent this in the future.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made May 19 at 2016 1:40 PM

2016-05-19T13:40:03-04:00

I have always wondered what would happen if this happened.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 1:43 PM

2016-05-19T13:43:29-04:00

Well I know at JRTC we found live mixed with blanks we had to stop all Ops till all the ammo with that lin# was inspected and redistributed because as a leader you perform PCC and PCIs so you know your soldiers are staight

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made May 19 at 2016 1:47 PM

2016-05-19T13:47:50-04:00

It's more a matter of "quantity" than anything. Remember we have a million people running around with weapons at any given time. While I was in, I think I heard of 2~ incidents (1 in my BN, and another second hand). That was 20 years ago.

It's not that they are "common" or even "often" but we've had something like 10M vets from Gulf 1 through now. On my first CAX we had a guy die in training (shot during live fire, swayed outside approved lines). "Anomalies" happen when you have enough numbers. Not an excuse, just an explanation.

It's sort of like lightning striking... but preventable lightning... if EVERYONE did EVERYTHING right 100% of the time.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 1:47 PM

2016-05-19T13:47:58-04:00

When I was in charge of an arms room we had a guy make it onto a live fire range with his adapter still on. He ended up having a statement of charges for the M4.
Blew the barrel on it, he had a scratch on his face.

Response by Cpl David Klassen made May 19 at 2016 1:55 PM

2016-05-19T13:55:19-04:00

You have got to be kidding me! There must have been a complete breakdown in the chain of command for anyone not knowing the difference between a weapon loaded with blanks and live rounds.......

Response by SFC Shane Funkhouser made May 19 at 2016 2:01 PM

2016-05-19T14:01:22-04:00

I saw it happen on a range once after we'd been out running around with the miles gear all day and had a night fire exercise. Peeled that barrel like a banana. Fortunately no one was seriously hurt. Like the SSG said though this is why we are supposed to check our troops conduct our pcc and pci's when starting a new training iteration.in this case going from playing laser tag to live fire. Our plt sgt went through apparently the other platoons did not

Response by SSG Michael Reece made May 19 at 2016 2:02 PM

2016-05-19T14:02:57-04:00

This is pure ignorance on all levels. To mistake live for blank is beyond my comprehension. Even if the two were mixed it would be hard to load them together.
The complete chain of command should be relieved for mistakes like this.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made May 19 at 2016 2:23 PM

2016-05-19T14:23:13-04:00

It happens more than you know then.
I was never assigned as a permanent party OC at any of our National Training centers, but I just looked, I have done 26 rotations between NTC, JRTC, JOTC and that does not include many visits to graf and Hohenfels before they were designated a Training center. Add to those hundreds of training missions from hours to weeks long on combined arms sites, company and battalion maneuver lanes, ect. The number of times a SM inserted a retained mag with live ammo from the live fire range at the training center, or from home station is, well astonishing. All services, Marines, AF and Army.
Add to all of that the hundreds of ND's I processed and reviewed at my last assignment in Afghanistan and you can see the issue is NOT uncommon.
While I personally have never had an ND, not in 28 years of service or 21 years of carrying a loaded and concealed weapon as a civilian (or off duty) .. i know plenty that have.

There are copious rules and safeguards in place, but are only as effective as the humans tasked with following them..and Humans make mistakes

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 2:23 PM

2016-05-19T14:23:19-04:00

There was a similar incident at Ft. Campbell last year. A Soldier had live rounds mixed in with blanks. Apparently he shot a controller pair at another Soldier. First round blew the BFA off. Second struck the Soldier in the chest and killed him.

Response by SGT Stephen Gober made May 19 at 2016 2:29 PM

2016-05-19T14:29:41-04:00

I'm sorry to say that all I hear are excuses. The negligence it takes to get a weapon with a BFA on a live fire range, even at night, is monumental. First, I will go under the premise that the weapon came out of the Amory with the BFA attached. Here's who should be under charges in the order the weapon should have been inspected. The armorer, the soldier, the fire team leader, the squad leader, the platoon sergeant, the range safety personnel. No one saw the BFA? We have redundant safety checks to prevent such an occurrence. Only apathy can allow such incidents to happen. Even going from blank firing to live fire, it's a requirement to run a rod down the barrel before entering the range. Even if the soldier attached the BFA after entering the range, safety personnel should have caught it before firing started. And I predict there will be a backlash for what I said. When I was a young Marine I was told by my fire team leader, even though we had just met upon reaching my first duty station, that he cared about the lives of all his Marines. It's a lesson that I passed on to everyone as I gained rank in my career. To me it's a breakdown of leadership and perhaps even indicative of a larger problem we have as a society. We simply don't care enough to take proper action. Stupid can be fixed... it takes strong leadership.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made May 19 at 2016 2:57 PM

2016-05-19T14:57:18-04:00

I forget that actual year but it was early 80's in Panama at Ft Sherman during JOTC, some knucklehead had a mag of live ammo and while we were doing training loaded the live mag and proceeded to blow the blank adapter off of his rifle. All training came to a screeching halt, all weapons were unloaded and magazines dumped looking for more live rounds. Nobody was hurt but the jackhole with the live mag got hammered and the NCO's had a rather large piece of ass chewed off. From that day on I know I was checking everyone on my squads ammo beforehand. It happens when we get lax or assume someone else will check things, snuffy will always get a case of the dumbass at the wrong time.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made May 19 at 2016 5:02 PM

2016-05-19T17:02:23-04:00

It still baffles me that someone can mistake a live round for a blank......

Response by MSG Pat Colby made May 19 at 2016 6:03 PM

2016-05-19T18:03:40-04:00

Suppose I can confess now.

While a Reservist, a fellow NCO and I routinely had a magazine of live ammo whenever we went to LTA's (Local Training Areas). LTA's were basically Local Civilian Land owners that let our unit conduct training on their property. All it would have taken was one "bad guy" with a shotgun or rifle to disarm everyone. We never had to use the live rounds but we figured it was a Force Protection thing. The magazines we carried were in Crown Royal bags in our LBE Buttpacks. No way in hell they could be mistakenly used.

Illegal as hell. But we had real Security.

Response by SPC Casey Ashfield made May 19 at 2016 6:42 PM

2016-05-19T18:42:36-04:00

I have worked and run ammo points distributing live and blank ammo. I have also done training where dry/blank/live runs were done of an exercise. In every instance, I never saw something like this happen. I have seen a BFA get left on a weapon but get caught by a range safety or the soldier getting "rodded on" the range or by a buddy.

I have found and heard of live rounds being mixed in with blanks. In every case it became a "this isn't supposed to be here" and tossed in an amnesty box. I would call that good luck. For every mind numbing safety brief I sat through when blank and live ammo was ever introduced, I remembered that somewhere, someone violated something in regards to safety.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made May 19 at 2016 6:54 PM

2016-05-19T18:54:59-04:00

We learned to do crazy-thorough shakedowns after every training, live or blank, and before every blank exercise as well.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 7:39 PM

2016-05-19T19:39:50-04:00

I was curious to read that the soldier blew the blank adapter off with the first round. Is that really possible? I would think the muzzle would split like a banana peel first. I am having a hard time understanding how 4 rounds made it to the helicopter. It's a good thing this weapon was not aimed at a soldier.

I guess I will have to have "all magazines will be checked for appropriate ammo" and "soldiers made aware of what a blank looks like" included in any safety briefings and CRMs that I may develop for training with blanks.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made May 19 at 2016 7:46 PM

2016-05-19T19:46:37-04:00

Definitely Good Material for a Safety Standdown.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made May 20 at 2016 6:36 AM

2016-05-20T06:36:57-04:00

I was Air Force. All we got to do was run around yelling, "Pew! Pew! Pew!"

Response by PO1 Jack Howell made May 20 at 2016 11:58 AM

2016-05-20T11:58:59-04:00

This all comes down to one phrase: 'Procedural Compliance'. It would appear that this was not the case in this incident.

Response by SPC David S. made May 20 at 2016 12:51 PM

2016-05-20T12:51:09-04:00

Not blanks but .50 cal hang fire. I'm sure that made the armourer's day.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 9:06 AM

2016-05-21T09:06:20-04:00

I have never seen a live round vs. BFA myself, so I went looking for a video, to no avail. Which is surprising as many as you can find with subjects like "firing the wrong caliber ammunition." I did find an interesting product though. This redesign of the BFA has a rod down the barrel which keeps full length, live cartridges too far out of battery to fire. http://www.blanksafe.com

Home

The battery of testing was conducted at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in the Army Research Labs facility was intended to prove some fundamental concept viability and answer the question, is it possible to prevent a live round from chambering while shooting blanks effectively?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 1:48 PM

2016-05-21T13:48:47-04:00

Easy fix......UNLOAD all mags before going to a range or training event..... NCOs check all mags before range or training event (Even The 1SG and Commanders) If your a NCO have someone else check your mags. LAST But not Least NO LIVE AMMO IN, AROUND, or NEAR THE TRAINING EVENT!!!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 2:16 AM

2016-05-23T02:16:17-04:00

BOLC 2, squad live fire exercise. Somebody in the first squad up left their BFA on... thankfully the BN or BDE CDR was observing and reamed that 2LT before he could hurt somebody.

Response by SFC Mike Appleby made May 23 at 2016 8:34 AM

2016-05-23T08:34:00-04:00

We were supporting an ADA unit during an excersise . One of their supply soldiers was handing out ammo(blank) for our MGs. It was night time and the soldier that received the box of ammo was a very young private. He was also one of my M-60 gunners.. We set the gun up at a perimeter post and he loaded the weapon. I noticed in
the moon light shining on the end of the bullets and immediately stopped the "play". I think some young captain had a little less 4th point of contact to sit on after that.

Response by SSG Roderick Smith made May 28 at 2016 1:45 PM

2016-05-28T13:45:30-04:00

We had a related case some years ago at Fort Sill... An IET unit was instructing 50 cal operation, with the weapon facing Soldiers that were sitting in some bleachers, observing. There was a live round mixed in with the can of dummy rounds, and it was fired into the crowd, killing one of the PVTs. The 1SG then threw the spent casing into some tall grass, like that was going to conceal what had happened.

Response by SSG George Holtje made May 29 at 2016 7:37 AM

2016-05-29T07:37:34-04:00

I have not been up close and personal. Someone in my unit did that in 02 at Drum. Thing went to ridiculous lengths after that because it was the result of someone picking up a discarded drum during a BF ex. After that I dropped a live May during a LFX and was ordered not to pick it up.
In 2010, at KMTC, I saw a close call involving at Afghani unit that issued live for a BF ex involving OPFOR. Luckily, the soldier realized what he was loading.

Response by SFC Bill Schmitz made Jun 4 at 2016 5:09 PM

2016-06-04T17:09:52-04:00

I wonder how the Army changed so much after watching videos of soldiers who don't know how to load their weapon, standing behind a TOW when it is fired and now this. What do they teach at basic training? When I was in, trainees that could not cut it were discharged!

Response by SFC Bill Schmitz made Jun 4 at 2016 5:40 PM

2016-06-04T17:40:04-04:00

While at Toden Dorf during Live Fire, SSG Bertrum left the Bore Sight Mandrel in the barrel, When the Senior Gunner Fired the Vulcan it blew the barrel and clamp to pieces. This was back in 1971.

Response by SPC John Tacetta made Apr 19 at 2021 3:55 PM

2021-04-19T15:55:51-04:00

This is clearly an urban legend.