Has the Marine Corps taken things too far with the attempt to erase the gender lines in the Corps?

MSgt John McGowan — Thu, 30 Jun 2016 07:49:40 -0400

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made Jun 30 at 2016 8:18 AM

LCpl Cody Collins — Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:18:24 -0400

Definitely !

Response by Sgt Tom Cunnally made Jun 30 at 2016 8:48 AM

Sgt Tom Cunnally — Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:48:06 -0400

Yes but they have to obey their orders from Navy Secretary Ray Mabus who is being directed from the White House....It's known as social experimenting using the Marines & is getting to be too much to handle..

Response by SSG Carlos Madden made Jun 30 at 2016 9:08 AM

SSG Carlos Madden — Thu, 30 Jun 2016 09:08:08 -0400

Renaming titles of MOS's seems like a pretty minor/non-issue

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Jun 30 at 2016 9:25 AM

1LT William Clardy — Thu, 30 Jun 2016 09:25:44 -0400

I don't know. Have they dropped "Looking for a few good men" from their recruiting liturgy?

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Jun 30 at 2016 10:05 AM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:05:30 -0400

Yes. Erasing the word man from any job title is stupid. Soon we won't even be allowed to be called humans because someone claims offense and wants to be known as a huperson.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Jun 30 at 2016 11:22 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Thu, 30 Jun 2016 11:22:25 -0400

Not according to ASHhole Carter. His priority is to make sure he has time to work out PC issues while we are in the middle of a de facto war with ISIS.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Jun 30 at 2016 12:09 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:09:27 -0400

My take was getting away from calling Women Marines "BAMs" was the major step to a good normal. Most everything since then have been attempts to solve nonexistent problems for 99% of the Marines. Fussing with this type of stuff, like a death of 1000 cuts, takes away from the lethality and survivability of our folk.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2016 1:39 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Jun 2016 13:39:18 -0400

MSgt John McGowan Changing the titles were per direction of Navy Secretary Ray Mabus. Most of the titles that were changed had "Man" replaced with "Marine." Marines will always adapt to whatever the situation calls for.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2016/06/27/marines-remove-word-man-these-19-job-titles/86438594/

The Marines will remove the word 'man' from these 19 job titles

The new names include "basic infantry Marine" and "antitank missile gunner."

Response by MGySgt James Forward made Jul 1 at 2016 11:55 AM

MGySgt James Forward — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 11:55:54 -0400

We are all Marines, I don't recognize any "gender line", when I had a task to be completed, I never assigned a Marine to the task based on what sex they were. Mission accomplishment is the goal. Semper Fi.

Response by Cpl William Soffel made Jul 5 at 2016 7:28 AM

Cpl William Soffel — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 07:28:15 -0400

Yes I think so . Motto is GOD COUNTRY CORPS not to say the Millions of dollars it's going to cost tax payers to change to signs, books, buildings and such.

Response by Cpl William Soffel made Jul 5 at 2016 7:28 AM

Cpl William Soffel — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 07:28:43 -0400

Yes I think so . Motto is GOD COUNTRY CORPS not to say the Millions of dollars it's going to cost tax payers to change to signs, books, buildings and such.

Response by Cpl Gerard Babin made Jul 5 at 2016 8:06 AM

Cpl Gerard Babin — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 08:06:15 -0400

No; If they want to be equal the lines must be removed the standard haarder on both equal means equal. the corp "ain't No country Club" we are paid to fight and die if women want the right they are entitled to join men at a mans level. Combat ain't gender neutral both sexes die but marines no matter what hardware you pack are Marines and all should be held to the highest standard. Hell W.M.'s have bigger balls than most Civilian Corporate Execs - why because Marines are volunteers male and female - erasing the lines and going neutral by law is what we already speak! It will weed out the "girly girls" both male and female and we will finally be one Corps.

Response by Cpl Joshua Caldwell made Jul 5 at 2016 8:38 AM

Cpl Joshua Caldwell — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 08:38:55 -0400

Yes by far, Marines are meant to kill the enemy, this politically correct crap gets in the way and makes that task harder.

Response by PFC Rs Seymour made Jul 5 at 2016 8:56 AM

PFC Rs Seymour — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 08:56:25 -0400

There's a reason why the Roman's didn't use women for combat.

Are their any professional women football player?

Go figure.

Response by LCpl David Carnes made Jul 5 at 2016 9:07 AM

LCpl David Carnes — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 09:07:34 -0400

Yes the SecDef is a Buffoon

Response by LCpl David Carnes made Jul 5 at 2016 9:07 AM

LCpl David Carnes — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 09:07:48 -0400

Yes the SecDef is a Buffoon

Response by 1stLt Dante Pamintuan made Jul 5 at 2016 9:09 AM

1stLt Dante Pamintuan — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 09:09:58 -0400

The Mission of the Marine Corps; from Marine.com.

OUR PURPOSE

Missions have changed over the years, but what has remained constant since November 10, 1775 is our unyielding commitment to protecting the lives of our citizens and the interests of our nation. Our purpose, by congressional mandate, is to be this nation's rapid response force; we are thus called to be "most ready when the nation is least ready." From humanitarian relief efforts to combat operations; from air, land and sea to every clime and place, the Marine Corps is ready to answer our nation's call."

The focus should be on accomplishing the mission...in every clime.

Semper Fidelis brothers and sisters!

Response by LtCol Mac McCarty made Jul 5 at 2016 9:14 AM

LtCol Mac McCarty — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 09:14:18 -0400

Look, for nearly 241 years, we have had to suck it up and say "Aye, aye, Sir" to some stupid, but lawful orders. It's an election year, the last year of what had the potential to be a great presidency but became a tragically failed one instead--due in large part to the concentration on stupid stuff like this. That is military service. We have all sorts of what some people call oxymorons: Military Music (but consider Stars and Stripes Forever); Military Justice (but Article 31 predated Miranda by some 10 to 15 years). Soon, however, a new and factual oxymoron is actually going to come out of this when we get our very first pregnant rifleman!

Response by LCpl Frankie Rush made Jul 5 at 2016 9:53 AM

LCpl Frankie Rush — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 09:53:28 -0400

I can see this game coming for some time. This politically correct is getting out of hand.

Response by GySgt William C. White made Jul 5 at 2016 10:03 AM

GySgt William C. White — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 10:03:48 -0400

I believe that the Marine Corps has taken things to far when it comes to erasing the gender lines. The Marine Corps is a different machine and the gender separation is very important especially when it comes to combat and the need for a fellow Marine to do their job.

Response by PFC Jerry Baldy made Jul 5 at 2016 10:22 AM

PFC Jerry Baldy — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 10:22:52 -0400

Yes it has. It weakens the effectiveness of the entire force (platoon) when other platoon members have to think to interact, especially in combat situations. You simply can not have liberal weirdness infecting the USMC ranks. It is dangerous at this precarious point in history. It is particularly dangerous when you have an inferior Commander and Chief as we do now!!

Response by MSgt John McGowan made Jul 5 at 2016 10:43 AM

MSgt John McGowan — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 10:43:40 -0400

As this was my question I want to Thank You all that responsed. I have a lot of good answers and a lot of different opinions. My son-in-law is a Marine, once a Marine, always a Marine. Thank you Marine Corp.

Response by LCpl Kenneth Heath made Jul 5 at 2016 11:39 AM

LCpl Kenneth Heath — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 11:39:41 -0400

They still have two sets of criteria for PFT, (which is demeaning and insulting), so they haven't erased any lines at all... although I do find it disgusting that my Marine Corps is trying to be pc. I am all for anyone who can pass the test to become a Marine being a Marine, I just don't think that there should be two sets of criteria, it's degrading to women for it to be assumed they need to be spotted a few points to make the grade!

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 3:10 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 15:10:47 -0400

Yes yes yes a hundred times. The Marine Corps even since I've been in (5 years) is losing its reputation as the hard asses. Political correctness, and POG's who think they know best are just plain ruining an entire force. In my short time I've been a Marine, I've seen a very rapid decline in motivation amongst my peers both younger and older. It started with the strict tattoo policy and has snowballed ever since. Before anyone says anything, I do not have any tattoos so that's not what I'm originally salty about. The point is America itself has become weak to the point it's embarrassing. We need real leaders who have the experience of the toughest times, and who know just how much their decisions and visions effect people and productivity. In a nutshell...we are trained killers, if you don't train or ever have trained daily to become a more lethal killer then shut your mouth because no one cares what your point of view is due to you not knowing a clue what you're talking about. Let killers feel like killers, not feel like worthless puppets.

Response by GySgt Richard Morrison made Jul 5 at 2016 3:12 PM

GySgt Richard Morrison — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 15:12:21 -0400

The Marine Corps is becoming "Politically Correct" in accordance with orders from higher authority. Why can't they (Obama and his cohorts) just leave us alone and do our job the way we have been for nearly 241 years. I haven't heard anyone complain about how the Marine Corps has protected them and their freedoms lately. Semper Fi. Proud Tennessee Volunteer. GySgt USMC (Retd) '65-'85.

Response by MSgt Tim Parkhurst made Jul 5 at 2016 4:20 PM

MSgt Tim Parkhurst — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 16:20:11 -0400

So, there are several good answers here already, but everyone seems to be dancing around the elephant in the room. Therefore, you all get to hear my two cents in the form of a civics lesson (no insult to intelligence intended. I know most Service members and Veterans tend to be far more informed than the average citizen, but I think these facts bear repeating here).

The Marine Corps isn't erasing gender lines. Our elected leaders are. America's system of government stands on the premise that the military is completely subservient to an elected government. If not for that fact, we would have long ago become a military dictatorship or some other form of oligarchy. The fact that our military "knows its place" and remains subservient to our civilian "leadership" demonstrates the strength of our Constitutional system of checks and balances. This has been tested many times, and it will be again. But so far, we have managed to support and defend the Constitution without a hostile take-over of our own government.

I feel confident in saying that everyone who has responded to this question - no matter what side of the issue they're on - has disagreed with some decision our national leadership has made, whether during the current administration, or during a past-President's term. Just because we may view a decision as "really wrong" or morally reprehensible doesn't give the military, as an institution, the right to refuse those orders. Several junior (and senior) enlisted have commented in this thread that other, more senior individuals have no backbone and ought to refuse to obey "unconstitutional orders". Well, hard-chargers, I challenge you youngsters to tell me what's really "unconstitutional" and what's not. That's a bit above our pay grade. Unless you can unequivocally answer that question, then you shouldn't be throwing those kinds of words around. They're inflammatory and serve no good purpose.

I will go on record by saying that I vehemently disagree with the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. I also disagree with "normalizing" women in combat roles. I also disagree that making special accommodations for Transgenders (or anybody else, for that matter) is detrimental to combat readiness. There is only one standard in the mind of this SNCO, and that is the standard that gets us combat readiness. As a result, I also believe that it's wrong to be screwing around with this gender-norming of our names and language. But, just because I don't agree with it doesn't mean it's not a legal order that you young guys still wearing a uniform have to obey. NEWSFLASH - If you wear a uniform, you will ROUTINELY have to obey orders you don't agree with!

One thing the Marine Corps, and all our branches of Service for that matter, are pretty good at, is that we do what we're told by our civilian leadership. There are reasons why this is necessary in our society. The Posse Comitatus Act and all that. Some of you (myself included, sometimes) may view that as "rolling over" for the politicians. Maybe a lot of that goes on at the General Officer level. But, maybe we aren't seeing the whole picture at our level. Whatever. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that WE step off smartly and execute the orders we're given.

If there is a clear violation of the law or the Constitution, I'm pretty sure some Lance Corporal, or some Master Sergeant, or even some Lieutenant Colonel isn't going to be the one to bring it to our attention. The point I want to make is this: The ultimate arbiter of what's unconstitutional or "wrong" with the decisions our national leadership makes is The People. The American Voters. THEY (you included) are responsible for electing - or un-electing - our leaders who make these decisions we do or don't agree with. Making your voice heard in the ballot box is the way to rectify any problems you see with the direction this country is taking.

If you aren't willing to make your voice heard (appropriately, while you're still in uniform) then you have no one to blame but yourself for what you get in the way of leadership. And, if you are making your voice heard, but it doesn't go your way, then this country is getting what it deserves despite your best efforts.

Response by LCpl Rob Hughes made Jul 5 at 2016 4:58 PM

LCpl Rob Hughes — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 16:58:24 -0400

Hell yes, women aren't built like a man is for working, abuse and punishment, and they are not meant to be, why would they want to ?

Response by LCpl James Robertson made Jul 5 at 2016 5:40 PM

LCpl James Robertson — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 17:40:02 -0400

In the 1970's, I had no ideal what the Marine Corps were about coming out of high school, I went into the Marine Corps by default, the Army Recruiter were never in his office in which I had plan to join. Upon being lied to by the Marine Recruiter on several different questions, "one rumor I had heard is that the Marine Corps D.I.s would kick you up the tail, the recruiter said no. The first thing I saw were a D.I.'s shiny boots kicking recruits up the rear at "Parris Island." Also the Marine Corps had a prison choice program with civilians Courts, where a Judge could order you to serve your time in prison in the Marine Corps. If the Marine Corps training program would have stayed the same, we would be having these problems today. Years ago if you told someone you had enlisted in the Marine Corps, they would look at you like you were crazy. When you lower standards anyone can be a Marine.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 7:50 PM

LCpl Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 19:50:48 -0400

Personally I think that if you want equality in the military then the standard should be the same. Same PFT requirements, same uniform standards, etc.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 9:10 PM

LCpl Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 21:10:40 -0400

The Corps is following directives to erase all gender lines from the Community Organizer-In-Chief as part of his re-engineering of the military. Traditions, moral, and combat readiness take a backseat to his political progressive agenda.

Response by Sgt Kris Kervin made Jul 6 at 2016 12:48 AM

Sgt Kris Kervin — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 00:48:20 -0400

yes stop turning my fucking Marines into pussies, fuck god created us for a reason to kill and blow shit up and you fucktards cant grip your measle mind around it. If you you tried to jack me off your wrist limped bastards would never get the job done! fuck you PC bullshit

Response by LCpl Chris D. made Jul 6 at 2016 8:03 AM

LCpl Chris D. — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 08:03:36 -0400

Yes..and we need to take our country back an execute these traitors running our goverment..SemperFi.......thats ALWAYS!!

Response by SSgt Lee Tucker made Jul 6 at 2016 8:03 AM

SSgt Lee Tucker — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 08:03:58 -0400

Absolutely

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2016 10:49 AM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 10:49:23 -0400

What happened to uniformity of body, mind, and thought? It seems we are breaking down everything that makes us who we are and destroying our uniformity, simply to be inclusive to small groups who are NOT held to the same standards.

For instance, here is a quote from the Marine Corps Times article about the new PFT standards:

===
McGuire said it was because the Marine Corps didn't "want to create a manpower problem by having some female Marines failing."
===

This is highly offensive to me. They should have simply eliminated the female PFT rather than create alternative options so that females could not fail. That is a serious lowering of standards. A female grunt has a physical standard less than half what males are expected. If a female in a males billet cannot complete the same PFT, they absolutely deserve to fail. Where is the uniformity?

Response by GySgt Richard Morrison made Jul 29 at 2016 12:40 AM

GySgt Richard Morrison — Fri, 29 Jul 2016 00:40:49 -0400

I'll bet Chesty is rolling in his grave. Semper Fi. GySgt USMC (Retd) '65-'85.