Have the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria affected the minds of our returning veterans more than previous wars?

2017-08-05T14:42:57-04:00

Yesterday I was asked by a 36 year old what is wrong with our returning vets of today. She said it seems that our veterans returning from Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria are more aggressive, unsociable, overbearing and just plain mixed up in the head then Vietnam veterans. The question actually confused and caught me of guard. It's something I have never really thought about. And I wasn't really sure how to answer the question. Do you have any opinions and observations?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 2:50 PM

2017-08-05T14:50:52-04:00

It could be a matter of confirmation bias. Between the 24/7 news cycle and ubiquitous social media these issues may appear more prevalent than they are.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Aug 5 at 2017 3:15 PM

2017-08-05T15:15:07-04:00

I think it is a memory issue. WWII vets and Viet Nam vets faced the same criticisms just after the end of those wars.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Aug 5 at 2017 3:21 PM

2017-08-05T15:21:34-04:00

Let's just say, she is seeing something that I haven't. Just use this site as an example. Don't see it.

Response by PO2 Richard C. made Aug 5 at 2017 3:24 PM

2017-08-05T15:24:27-04:00

I wonder if part of what is being perceived as different behavior is a result of the different reception returning veterans are getting now and not actually different. When 'Nam vets came back, it was almost like moving into another war zone. When we got stateside, we never knew who the enemy was even though we could sometimes figure it out. 'Nam vets generally tried not to show much emotion because it could/would be used as a weapon against them by those who were anti-war/anti-military. There are a lot of similarities between the current conflicts and Vietnam - faceless enemy, IED's vs. booby traps, environmental extremes of desert vs. jungle, border jumping, etc. The only real difference is the reception returning troops were/are receiving. Returning Vietnam veterans were shunned and vilified; today's returning veterans are more supported and embraced. I'm not sure there is much difference between the current suicide rates of 'Nam vets and Iraq/Afghanistan/Syria vets. If there is, it's only because those Vietnam vets with that tendency have had 50 years to get it done instead of 20.

Response by SP5 Sam Hollis made Aug 5 at 2017 3:25 PM

2017-08-05T15:25:53-04:00

My opinion only
Just for the infantry
We are NOT comparing apples to apples.
I'll speak across the board to
WW 1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam
Was the trading the same ?
Did you have your asskicked literally in boot camp?
Did you maintain respect for the
Instructors?
Was the rations the same?
Where your barracks the same?
Is your communications the same?
Are your tents the same ?
Are you able to live stream videos home and back?
There is no way for us to compare any war/encounter with another!!
Tooooo many advancements good or bad

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 5:15 PM

2017-08-05T17:15:48-04:00

In the words of my father, "Every generation if full of dumb asses, the bad thing for your generation is you have a way to prove it". I think the same goes with War in modern times. Civilians can see it, if they so choose second hand or completely ignore it. That said, people can push their issues or agendas because of it. I think the Vet in World War II probably saw some messed up stuff, I think the Vet in Afghanistan probably saw some messed up stuff. If I deploy I might see some messed up stuff.

What we see affects people differently. I've seen a lot of videos about our guys getting blown up or ISIS getting taken out by riflemen, snipers, or air assets. Some people look at it and freak out, some see it and it doesn't bother them because it's just a video to them. It bothers me on a small level when it's our brothers and sisters. ISIS... Not really at all. Maybe I desensitized myself to it because they're the enemy and that's easier than seeing them as human. Maybe I think they deserve it, I'm pretty sure they do, they kill women and children after all.

I think all of this goes out the window if I see it first hand rather than second hand and hearing about it third hand, the imagination only goes so far. So all of this said, I think it may have always been there but with modern communication civilians and service members alike are more exposed to it than they were previously.

Response by SPC Joshua Pruitt made Aug 5 at 2017 5:23 PM

2017-08-05T17:23:35-04:00

I had a Vietnam Veteran actually tell me we had it worse because we had no trees to hide behind or anywhere to hide, I never thought about that until I heard that statement.....

Response by MSgt Carl Stokes made Aug 5 at 2017 8:33 PM

2017-08-05T20:33:28-04:00

speaking for myself, fortunaltly I had a job waiting but I still had and have today delt with alot of bullshit from my employer, which is the county government. There is alot of lip service about supporting the troops but you actually find very little. Lots of organizations you can email or call for help and you never get a return. So I feel like its pretty much the same as it was for other vets it just hides behind a fake support agenda and thats why I am so angry.
So imagine if you came home and couldnt find a job?

Response by CH (CPT) James L. Machado Workman made Aug 5 at 2017 9:18 PM

2017-08-05T21:18:05-04:00

The difference for me was seeing the headline in the Stars and Stripes that quoted President Bush on the Abraham Lincoln saying the major hostilities were over. The night before we hunkered down with our K-pots on hoping not to get hit by mortor rounds coming over the walls of BIAP-the following night also. News reports on the TV's in the de-fac kept saying that we won the war and were coming home soon. Well-having mortor rounds lobbed at you while you want to sleep doesn't feel to me like major hostilities were over. Feeling like you deployed and were willing to support your country's belief that WMD existed by potentially giving your life just to have your leaders say you're not currently facing the potential of death and feeling like the rest of the country is going about life like there is no war going on at all-that's enough to make you angry.

Response by SSgt Gary Andrews made Aug 5 at 2017 9:32 PM

2017-08-05T21:32:17-04:00

I suspect it's a case of different era, different war, same issues with our combat vets. One difference with today's vets might be the multiple deployments though.....with Nam, if you made it through your tour....you were done, unless you asked for another tour. Today....they go back time and time again. That has to wear on you.

Response by SGT Beau Thomas made Aug 5 at 2017 10:21 PM

2017-08-05T22:21:19-04:00

Social media is the major difference. Before the War on Terror, news was local and big stories were national. With instant communication, all local news is national.

Response by LTC John Mohor made Aug 5 at 2017 10:46 PM

2017-08-05T22:46:08-04:00

How is any 36 year old woman supppsed to be able to compare today's returning warrior to a returning Vietnam vet when she wasn't even born yet?

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 11:44 PM

2017-08-05T23:44:31-04:00

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member I have talked to veterans of all wars, and I have not noticed any difference. Over the years, I have encountered civilians that thought most Vietnam Veterans were messed up in the head.

Response by Cpl Mark A. Morris made Aug 6 at 2017 1:05 AM

2017-08-06T01:05:11-04:00

ROE suck. Not being truthful on who/what the enemy is. It is not extremism. Shia and Sunni followers of Muhamnad is the enemy.
After Regan did not make Hizboallah a stain, I knew it was time to wake up and worry about myself.
Before I could do that, I was touched by this world and it took years of working it out without knowing I had been touched.
We have better networking and getting together on rivers, lakes and golf courses.
But, to keep sending our fighters to a FUBAR area and hoping for a different outcome causes issues.
ID the enemy. Form a plan. Execute said plan. Kill the enemy. Come home.
M. Morris RVT

Response by SGT David Emme made Aug 6 at 2017 4:31 AM

2017-08-06T04:31:19-04:00

Couple of different things here.

First, That 36 year old did not see the Vietnam vet when they came home from war. They are seeing a vet that is 40 years removed from their war. Saying that-am not trying to be offensive to my brothers and sisters from the Vietnam War. Just that the emotional wounds from the new kids on the block might be a little more raw as the wounds and the experiences are more new.

Second, you might also be seeing two, three, maybe even veterans with four or more deployments where as from my perception-it was not so with most Vietnam Veterans (only one tour). Does not make the OIF/OEF vet better or more damaged-just different and perhaps an explanation for why sometimes some GWOT vets might seem more aggressive-having more war scars they carry with them over more years of deployments. Again-not better or anything...just apple and oranges.

We GWOT veterans owe a lot of thanks and gratitude to Vietnam Veterans for blazing a path and fighting battles for us politically and within the VA system to make it so much better for us compared to what you had when came through the system. Thank you!

Response by SSG Joshua Reyna made Aug 6 at 2017 6:48 AM

2017-08-06T06:48:12-04:00

Yes Definitely!!!

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Aug 6 at 2017 11:12 AM

2017-08-06T11:12:11-04:00

The only common denominator is death.
It is the only thing they have in common.
You can't compare the other was as far as how veterans from war react.
They come from different generations

Response by SSG Dennis Butler made Aug 6 at 2017 2:15 PM

2017-08-06T14:15:51-04:00

Most Vietnam vets were deployed once some multiple times. Our welcome home WASN'T.
Today's vets have served many
Deployments but have been welcomed back with open
Arms and not demonized as VN vets were. The multiple deployments do take toll on individual and family

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Aug 6 at 2017 3:23 PM

2017-08-06T15:23:11-04:00

Is it that the vets are more aggressive or that the cIvilians are bigger pussies? A matter of perspectIve...

Response by CPT Jim Schwebach made Aug 6 at 2017 7:45 PM

2017-08-06T19:45:48-04:00

During Vietnam career officers and NCO's did in fact serve multiple tours. Most of the attendees at my Infantry Officer's Career Course in 1971-2 had served at least two tours, the first as a platoon leader and the second as a company commander or staff officer. A few had three. Upon graduation from the career course a number of my fellow graduates did another tour. Most field grades, at least those in the combat arms, also served multiple tours.
Most senior NCO's also served multiple tours. The NCO's, a SSG and a MSG, on my SF team were serving their second and third tours respectively. My last(third) tour was with a rifle battalion where most of the senior NCO's had served prior tours.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Aug 7 at 2017 7:20 AM

2017-08-07T07:20:00-04:00

And just how many veterans of the current conflict does she really know? Even with the more open environment for reporting PTSD, which should really be classified as either Chronic or Acute, the number of incidents don't seem to be any greater than in any of the past conflicts since and including Vietnam.
I put it down to the fact that we have become a nation of snowflakes.

Response by MAJ Ron Peery made Aug 7 at 2017 9:11 AM

2017-08-07T09:11:55-04:00

the 36 year old is wrong. Troops coming home now are no more messed up than folks from previous wars. I suspect she has some animus toward military in general, and she watches too much MSM broadcasts. Also, we publicize PTSD, TBI, and other baggage.

Response by SGT Anna Kleinschmidt made Aug 7 at 2017 10:08 AM

2017-08-07T10:08:25-04:00

Honestly, I noticed a difference with my son and his unit before they even left. Basic did not give them an adaquate stress level to be able to toughen up and cope with war. They were able to sleep a full 8 hours at night and have personal time on the weekends. They even had people come in to clean their barracks. This was my first area of shock. The thing that concerned me the most was the aspect of the internet and my son being able to call his wife daily, sometimes multiple times a day. She was not a good military wife either that was concerned about keeping his head in the game. She used that time to play mind games with him. This kept his mind 1/2 in a war zone and 1/2 at home and we can all agree, that is not a good place for a soliders head to be. Since he has returned 7 young men that were in Afghanistan with him have taken their life. My son struggles with survivors guilt and ptsd himself. This saddens me and I had told his father who has now retired after 30 years active duty that he would come back mess up due to the lack of stress he was put through in basic and he agreed. They should not beat soliders to death during basic but that is the time to find out if they can handle it mentally or not. Save a life then or lose a life later!

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Aug 7 at 2017 2:13 PM

2017-08-07T14:13:36-04:00

Considering that this 36 year old was born several years AFTER the Vietnam War ended, I might have been tempted to ask Ms. Know-it-All just what it is she bases her opinions on.

Response by SPC Colin Jenks made Aug 8 at 2017 9:02 PM

2017-08-08T21:02:35-04:00

I imagine when Vietnam vet came home they felt similar to returning GWOT personnel. Fact is as anyone who spent time outside the wire you don't know who the enemy is. Than come home and can't turn that off immediately. I think NG and Reserves can have it worse as they are suddenly cut loose into the civilian world and loose the support the unit provided. Now you are in a world that is safer but your mind still processes everything as if the enemy is all around you. Couple that with the inability to find a decent jobs, bills to pay, idiots to deal with and you can see why they would be like that.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Aug 11 at 2017 4:33 PM

2017-08-11T16:33:38-04:00

The last stats I saw had about 20% of OIF/OEF Soldiers with PTSD. Pretty significant in my mind.
In my opinion a contributing factor in troops slow recovery on return could be the move to 1+1 barracks standard. This can isolate troops and instead of folks visiting with one another they sit in front of the X box and play games by themselves.
Down range the guys are getting thumped repetitively by IEDs so there's the concussive injuries that may be more prevalent than previous conflicts.
Figure this, in previous conflicts if you were 0 to 10 feet away from an artillery round that detonated near your thin skinned vehicle the Soldiers were pretty much done for, today short of an EFP or extremely large IED Troops frequently walk away from these incidents and continue the mission to be thumped again later. Cruising around waiting to hit the catastrophic big one after having been hit, tends to screw with your head a little weather anyone cares to admit it or not.
These are just my opinions and thoughts on this.

Response by SFC Rick Walton made Aug 23 at 2017 5:37 PM

2017-08-23T17:37:23-04:00

For me. The poverty and desperation I witnessed from locals on a fairly routine basis floored me. The fact that there are people with no power over the stuff that is going on around them (very bad things at times). Yet they still trudge on trying their very best just to live. I come back here where even homeless people live better, and it's constant bickering and nothing is good enough for anybody. I feel as though Americans, by and large, have a very narrow focus one world views, and it is very abrasive to me how ungrateful the country is becoming.

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made Aug 25 at 2017 10:43 AM

2017-08-25T10:43:26-04:00

I don't know of any studies regarding this but I suspect diagnosis and treatment of these returning soldiers is much better at IDing those who need help so I think not.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2017 2:37 PM

2017-08-25T14:37:05-04:00

All wars effectveterans who have seen combat I mean we also got smaller military actions like Operation Just Cause, operation restore hope and operation urgent fury I mean there are combat veterans from those who have had some hard times because of the experience. It just goes without saying.

Response by PO1 Bill Stewart made Sep 7 at 2017 11:35 PM

2017-09-07T23:35:49-04:00

The ROE certainly didn't help matters much. The constant pressure of media scrutiny and political correctness constraints in a wartime environment. It's like a boxer going into the ring for a prize fight with his hands tied behind his back and getting punched repeatedly and needing permission from 10 different committees to punch back. So I guess after that and coming home everyone's strongly stated opinions,,, well the gloves tend to come off.

Response by PO1 Aaron Baltosser made Sep 12 at 2017 11:28 PM

2017-09-12T23:28:48-04:00

The confusion and aggression are probably caused more by people that have no idea what the outside of a Hesco barrier looks like, than the Veterans returning from those areas of operation. The people returning today are no different than previous generations We are more aware of some things, and less aware of others (effects long term of burn pit exposure for example). The greatest thing I see facing returning Veterans is the lack of interest from civilians in employing them for whatever reason they have. It has effected too many that I know as opposed to them being messed up in the head.