Have we lost our Professionalism in the Army (Military)

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 22:03:24 -0400

Has the level of professionalism in the Army been lost? Has the bar been lowered so much that it is now acceptable to slander our senior leadres, or any other brother / sister in arms?

I just read through a post on here about our SMA and him wearing glasses on his head and the amount of comments, but senior NCOs and Officers was embarrassing. How did we get to this point?

I'll admit I am tough leader who demands the most / best out of my Soldiers, and in the case of my current assignment, my Marines. I expect my Soldiers / Marines to do the right thing, even when no one is looking. And when they don't, I correct them. I also expect them to correct me WHEN I make mistakes. In any incident there is never a level of slander / disrespect towards each other because a mistake was made.

How did we get here???

Response by SGT Richard H. made Oct 14 at 2014 10:37 PM

SGT Richard H. — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 22:37:02 -0400

Honestly, Sir, I think maybe you're reading it a little too deep. What Soldier hasn't poked a little fun at their chain of command? Maybe the mimic the inflection that their 1SG uses to call the Company to attention or something. Personally, I didn't see anything more disrespectful than "haha he's breaking his own rule" sort of stuff.

Or do I need to go back and re-read it?

Soldiers, either by nature or inherently, tend to look for humor in things like that. Maybe it's a desire to humanize the leaders. I don't know. But it's just Military life in my experience.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2014 10:44 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 22:44:05 -0400

I don't think a little bit of banter towards the man was really slander. I think what you are seeing is the contention that people have towards this issue. I jokingly commented not to demean your service or your personnel. The comment is probably not personal against him but is more so in just how some SNCO's treat small uniform infractions as if they are the worst thing that can happen in your career as if you just committed fratricide. Having been on several deployments I know that this issue hits a hot button. I have seen his Af counterparts run clear across the compound to chew someone out over this. You want to talk about unprofessional, its when someone is being chewed out over a minor uniform infraction, like they are back in basic training, that could also have been a simple mistake. In my service I have even seen SNCO's dress down Lt Col's over not having their reflective belts or their PT shirt got un-tucked.

You mention it was probably a mistake and human error. I agree with you, however I also know that it seems like sunglasses on heads, reflective belts, and tucking pt uniforms seems to be the mindset that it is the most important thing to many of his counterparts. I once was at a right start briefing where the Command Chief at Al Udeid tried to equate tucking PT shirts and wearing the reflective belt to following checklist procedures in the cockpit. To all the flyers we think that was little bit ridiculous because one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. having a uniform that may be incorrect is not going to get me killed, however having the gear up during landing probably will.

A lot of people will call you out if you are not practicing what you preach. In my former career field that is how we keep ourselves in check. We call it roll cal. This is where if you made a mistake in the cockpit that did not break metal, kill you or get you violated by the ATC agency. We called each other out on it. It is how we keep ourselves honest. That is basically what has happened here on this board, that's all. You have to ask yourself is it just keeping good order and discipline or can this be an issue to throw your rank around. In some cases I feel that some people get off on chewing people out. Maybe they have home stress and are projecting out, or they simply have a chip on their shoulder and just want to bully. I can tell from experience that it would seem like the people that are not rational about spot corrections are just trying to throw themselves around.

It is human instinct to comment on when people who accept a position that supposed to be beyond reproach fall short. Especially a community such as the SNCO of any service where they pride themselves of being the perfect examples and setters of order and discipline.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2014 10:59 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 22:59:01 -0400

SGM Charles Brainard...I appreciate the "vote down" without comment. You have clearly made my point about the level of professionalism in the Army. Thank you for your service and your decision to leave the military.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2014 11:05 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 23:05:16 -0400

Yes. We have. I came in the Army in 2000 and have seen a new Army emerge from a war weary generation. We have lowered our standards to being soldiers in during the surge. We gave out waivers. We did overlooked criminal records. On yet another front we stopped sending soldiers to NCOPD schools before they are NCOs. You could be a team leader now with few training requirements. SSD is trying to address this gap. I think that the picture is funny but I am not so sure that the lack of professionalism contributed to this.

The Army is now correcting itself by being more stringent with its leaders.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2014 11:12 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 23:12:32 -0400

I would say "yes" to this question on two fronts:

1. The military has had a hard time adapting to social media and internet-era information sharing. (In fact, the entire Public Sector has had trouble).

This means that we have people putting things out online that would normally be handled within very small groups... seniors bashing other seniors, juniors bashing seniors, and so on... are all now readily available to the view of the general public.

Professionalism is lost because we have not yet learned the importance of thinking before we speak.

2. The Military had been required (in order to support military operations) to lower enlistment standards. This is a secondary, not primary cause for the breakdown of discipline.

Following the draw down in the mid-90s, only "careerists" and those who did not feel their skills would be employable remained in the military. THIS became the "generation of leaders" who recommended, enacted, and enforced the policies that lead to the training of junior Soldiers since the beginning of our current conflicts.

Ultimately, the advent of modern technology and social media has made it a LOT easier to highlight the things "wrong" with something.

It should be pointed out that with the proper purpose, motivation and direction, the same technology and social networking tools could be used to enact proper change/improvements.

Response by CW2 Paul Beiss made Oct 15 at 2014 8:51 AM

CW2 Paul Beiss — Wed, 15 Oct 2014 08:51:20 -0400

Yes we have and I'll tell you it stemmed from many things. Desegregating ranks in mess facilities is an example I will use. I never thought that it was a good idea that a junior enlisted should be able to plop down his tray next to a BDE or higher commander during a meal. And don't pounce on me for saying that, I was there once upon a time. The main problem is we have set out to say that if it is good enough for me, then it's good enough for my troops, but I don't believe that should be practiced in EVERY aspect. The cold truth here is, R.H.I.P!

No where would I have EVER asked my troops to do something I have not done, nor am not willing to do myself, but senior NCOs and different grade Officers should have some perks that they have earned and others should see and want.

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made Oct 15 at 2014 9:14 AM

LTC Yinon Weiss — Wed, 15 Oct 2014 09:14:46 -0400

To the question of whether the military is as professional as it should be, I will leave to another discussion.

However, to the question of whether professionalism has been "lost" -- I believe is an easier one to tackle. I have no reason to believe that if one went back 10 or 20 years, or 30 or 100 years, that the rank and file would not have been complaining and poking fun at their leaders exactly the same way they do today. Perhaps back then it would have been in barracks, or in back rooms of officer clubs, or out on a Friday night. However, there is no reason to believe that people have changed. Perhaps it is simply more visible because of social media.

In many ways, our military has become more and more professional.

Response by CPO Jon Campbell made Oct 15 at 2014 10:19 AM

CPO Jon Campbell — Wed, 15 Oct 2014 10:19:33 -0400

I think that we all tend to have a myopic view that is based on our personal experience, but if we take a step back and look at the overall condition of the military, progress has been made in professionalism. There will always be unprofessional individuals, or sections, or units, but as a whole, there has never been a time in the history of the US Military when we had as many educated members with as many skills and as many missions as we have today.
The Army just 60-70 years ago was populated by men who hadn't finished high school, farmers, and miscreants of all sorts. Judges often used the Army as an alternative sentence for petty criminals. We have certainly risen above the social and educational conditions of the 1940's. We have added challenges to developing professionalism by adding missions, technology, social equality, and other things. Professionalism is a continually developing thing and not something that is attained or earned like a trophy.

Response by CPT Barry Kaufman made Oct 15 at 2014 5:50 PM

CPT Barry Kaufman — Wed, 15 Oct 2014 17:50:30 -0400

I'll jump in, even though I've been out longer than all you guys have been in. On one hand, I have to be impressed at the quality of the men and women serving in today's military. Smarter soldiers are always better soldiers (I used to have the stats from initial accession on to active duty that proved that smarter guys/girls graduated AIT at a higher rate than lower categories, and had way fewer discipline issues.) So my guess is that they probably know how to do their jobs pretty well. On the other hand, if you consider professionalism as those things you can see (uniforms, haircuts as examples) and hear (attitudes, opinions as examples), then I don't know. I have to believe that leading soldiers in the era of cellphones and social media brings on challenges that guys in my era could not have imagined.

How can anyone possibly be out of uniform in today's Army? There are only 2 of them. The only time that you see soldiers wearing blues are in official pictures, the Old Guard, and officers who testify before Congress. Otherwise, it's ACU's. Or BDU's. Or fatigues, or whatever you guys call them now. They fit like potato sacks with Velcro patches. You don't have to shine leather, nothing gets tucked in, you can't even roll your sleeves up poorly, since you can't roll up your sleeves. I mean, come on. What do guys do, wear their rank upside down? I think if you have a soldier out of uniform, he or she probably wants to be out of uniform. Honestly, and a bit more seriously, nobody looks good in the field uniforms. I'll bet that it's hard to take pride in your appearance in those fatigues. And please, someone, tell me what's with the reflective PT belts? How long have you guys been forced to wear those idiotic things? Used to be that when you ran in formation, in the dark of the morning, the 1SG posted a couple of Specialists with flashlights as road guards and a couple of guys at the rear of the formation with flashlights to warn cars as they approached. You didn't run on the main drag, either.

Response by COL Randall C. made Oct 15 at 2014 6:51 PM

COL Randall C. — Wed, 15 Oct 2014 18:51:46 -0400

LTC Private RallyPoint Member, it's not that the Army, or the military overall, has become less professional, it is that those that are less professional are now noticed by a much larger audience. Unprofessionalism is not a phenomenon that is exclusive of the newer generation of military personnel, but rather it is heightened because the newer generation embraces social media for all it's goods and ills. Unprofessional conduct that was limited to an individual and a few friends 'around the water cooler' instead become comments that are shouted from the rooftops.

Because of the ability to distance themselves from the individuals they are interacting with, what has been lost by many is an understanding of the impacts/consequences of their actions as well as the forum in which they communicate. The relative anonymity on interacting through social media online gives a sense of safety due to this distancing, and because of that feeling of safety, individuals that would restrain themselves if they were in public talking with others instead disengage social filters and let fly with whatever is on their mind.

Many times the perception of something occurring is not due to an increase of instances, but rather do to an increase in awareness, so to is it for unprofessional conduct.

Response by WO1(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2014 7:08 PM

WO1(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Oct 2014 19:08:32 -0400

It's the lack of discipline from the soft skilled MOS's and some leaders worried about being labeled as a toxic leader. Some want to joke around and are more worried about having a friend then being a leader.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2014 3:23 AM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Oct 2014 03:23:30 -0400

LTC Private RallyPoint Member, sir, I do think that we have lost some aspects of Professionalism. I know that I can't say much, as I haven't been in as long as some members on this forum, but even in the short amount of time that I have been in I have seen things that make my head spin. Such as Soldiers not standing at Parade Rest when addressing an NCO, or NCOs not standing at Parade Rest when addressing SNCOs. I also think that it comes with a change of the times, which is sad, because we are supposed to be the shining example of Discipline, Respect and Professionalism. I asked a Soldier the other day if they were wearing their PT pants with their civilian clothes (which is a no-go here in 2ID land), and he responded with "A lot of other people are doing it too."

I do think that with Social Media, things are put out into the World that would normally just be said amongst other members within your unit, or section. Now these words are out for the entire world to see them. With regards to the SMA, I saw an article in Army Times that said that he does look at Social Media sites, and he does see what Service Members are saying, not only about him, but everything in general.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2014 3:53 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Oct 2014 15:53:47 -0400

To a point yes it has!
While I was a lower enlisted I had NCO's being overly friendly to the other lower enlisted. Favoriting them over others, allowing them to get away with more and when called out upon nothing was done. NCOs not doing their job, being more of a boss then a leader which has slacked while in one of my units (not going to state which).

While as a NCO before I got out when I have called other NCOs out on their games I was the one who was getting in trouble. Calling other higher ups on their double standards when it comes to be, "Do as I say, not as I do."

These "new" Soldiers come in weak backboned and think it's ok and while they get away with it others see it and start a chain reaction of disrespect.

I could go on with my point but this would lead into a book instead of a discussion. Over all the ones who have been in need to start setting a proper example and follow things by the book. It's not a buffet where you can pick what you want.

Response by HN Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2014 11:13 AM

HN Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:13:36 -0400

Major
You bring up a very good point. I come from a family of military so i've lived through countless events where even as a teenager i was expected to act like a young adult and be respectfull. In the few years i have been in i've seen E-3's calling Chiefs by their given games and not calling officers sir or ma'am and using just their last name with no rank. It's definately sad to see that the respect and military bearing has gone way down. i believe the saying if you have nothing nice to say don't say anything at all. Which is the reason i don't comment on posts about our nations president. I may not agree with what he has done but he is still our commander in Chief and i will not disrespect him. That goes for anyone else in my COC.

Response by SPC Bryan Guzman-Piedra made Oct 17 at 2014 7:38 PM

SPC Bryan Guzman-Piedra — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 19:38:24 -0400

I think the question is:

Did the Army replace professionalism with a hollow and false professionalism?

Appearances are everything. But to those of us with a discerning eye it is easy to catch the double standards, the false pretenses, the laziness.

It all boils down to setting an example and real leadership. "Do as I say, not as I do" is not leadership, it's bullshit. Yet it seems to have become the standard model for the military in general, the Army in particular.

Response by 1SG Adais Garcia made Oct 17 at 2014 8:01 PM

1SG Adais Garcia — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 20:01:08 -0400

How did we get there well it starts with this new generation of Soldiers a generation of Entitlement. How did this generation get to this point of Nonprofessionalism well it starts from the Top of the echelon when those decision making Military People stated allowing the Joe's in Boot camp to carry cell phones and Cry and pull out their stress cards and TAKE THAT POWER away from the Drill Instructors yes it starts their when a Plt Sergeant or even a Squad ldr can't even drop a Joe for pushup s cause then they cry HAZING Really maybe I am Old school but That was the best BOOTCAMP for me in 79 yes I am aware that times are changing and we have to adapt but something s are better off not CHANGED So there you go that's why we are where we are with this new educated generation due to NOone caring anymore to even Correct anyone anywhere. So it start s there Sir

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2014 8:31 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 20:31:36 -0400

Has it Sir? It's at a despicably low point in my opinion. New soldiers brushing off orders from their NCO's, not giving them proper respect and it doesn't stop there--not by a long shot! These junior, senior NCO's, and even on the Warrant and Commissioned Officer levels the professionalism is clinging on by a thread. I'm sure in days past lower ranked officers called their superiors by Sir, not by their first name--and that is seen by a lot of lower enlisted as how to act, this goes hand in hand with the whole parade rest, attention spiel when addressing NCO's and Officers. They see us not doing it, why should they? That's just the tip of the iceberg though...
When we aren't allowed to enforce standards without backlash, it weakens the professionalism of this force. When the support MOS's do more combat arms MOS tasks then they do their actual MOS, their professionalism is lost and those skill sets lost with their gaining incompetence. I recently had a talk with a veteran working as a DoD maintenance contractor on Ft. Riley, there are service members out there who can't even follow a technical manual, read schematics, or perform a proper service on equipment because their time is spent not learning how to do these tasks and learning just the basics. I'm sorry but the basics, no matter how much they're needed, have a time and place and shouldn't be 3/4 of every month of the year. Lack of professionalism continues from there...
Let's go back to appearances. Sunglasses on your PC or on your forehead, no longer serviceable uniforms, PC's that are worn incorrectly (your ranger rolls [sorry Rangers, it's not authorized even for you per regulation], or worn like a baseball cap or 2-3 sizes to big), service uniforms never updated--or pressed for that matter (hell there's NCO's out there that don't know how to set up their racks even with all those references out there). I digress though, someone else take the mic.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2014 8:36 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 20:36:59 -0400

I believe Professionalism as a whole has been lost at a Societal Level. People paid in the millions of dollars per year cannot even act professional and they have have serious bonuses that can come with acting accordingly. I may be off center here but i have a feeling it may come down to the trend of "everyone is equal". Every kid gets a trophy type stuff that places no emphasis on seniority or real character but rather that; at least you joined so, you should be considered an equal to everyone else. With that being said I have been fortunate enough to serve under/alongside some extremely professional service members of every branch. I have met some real dirt-bags too. What I think it really is though and what others have touched on, is the attention that the disrespectful get, like that soldier who posted on FB how she hid from Flag Call....nobody would have ever really known if; A.) She wasnt completely freaking stupid enough to brag about it. B.) There was no Social Media...I fell like the majority of Service Members will fall into the "Average Category" (those who make a few mistakes but learn from them and for the most part, serve rather honorably) and will continue to do so as long as people exist to take swift and firm action against those who chose to disobey and disrespect customs, courtesies, general doctrine...and those who are just down right shitty human beings

Response by SPC Fred Lytge made Oct 17 at 2014 9:59 PM

SPC Fred Lytge — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 21:59:33 -0400

I have watched a few documentaries of "Basic Army Training" here recently and,, I remember what I went through in basic and they seem to be two totally different animals. It seems that the army has slacked up a bit...but, it is the media and I don't know how true it all is..

Response by SFC Don Ward made Oct 17 at 2014 10:35 PM

SFC Don Ward — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 22:35:24 -0400

The really funny part about this post - the Army has a campaign to our "Profession" for the last few years. My thoughts when this came out - if we have to consider it as a profession we are already behind the eight ball. It's like teaching values, at the age most recruits come into the Army it's about too late to be teaching values, and all the signs touting the values are more of a waste of money than a teaching moment.

We have spent the last ten years recruiting whoever could breathe, going to automatic promotions, and becoming politically correct. I know of a battalion commander that is such a fitness expert, he thinks a chocolate bar has too much caffeine for an 18 year old to handle. I know a CSM that showed up drunk for duty, jumped into his car after the breathalyzer and drove home. He was made the Brigade Projects NCO until his retirement orders come through.

I hear we set a new standard every day, lower than the day before.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Oct 29 at 2014 2:01 AM

SGT Michael Glenn — Wed, 29 Oct 2014 02:01:23 -0400

Maj Oberg, you asked so here is my response. I believe the seeds were planted years ago when the Army chose to do away with many seasoned vets and replace them with book smart Officers who knew nothing about actual combat anything, NCO's were chosen by their book smartness also and the only way to be promoted was to have college under your belt, this may make for a very smart chain on paper, but the quality of the leadership went down because the Army lost its most valuable asset, on the ground knowledge. I got so fed up with SSG's who couldnt read a map to save their lives (literally) a sgt who was designated to bring the diesel truck to our bivouac site who walks into camp 5 hours later and proceeds to tell our 1sg he ran out of diesel ( has an entire tanker full of diesel) and wanted to know what he should do??? A 1lt who could not take his weapon off safety and the list just goes on, they may be book smart but a nightmare in actual real time.The soldiers see this and it is very discouraging to anyone to know your out in the freezing rain in foxhole while your commander takes his vehicle to the rear EVERY NIGHT, sleeps in a warm bed only to get up each morning, eat a decent meal, kiss his wife bye for the day, arrives all fresh and dry and wakes everyone up by telling them how miserable they are and how they should all follow his example of professionalism, if that is what the upper ranks consider professionalism... I can see where the problem is.In basic our commander would tell us how he was going to dog our asses on a run, we would fall in, do the ole double time and as we left the company area you see his poor excuse for an officers ass jump into a yellow car with Taxi written on it, pop up out of the middle of no where from the bushes, tell us how sorry we were, do some cals with us until he got winded, gave the formation to Top, jumped back into the bushes and kept reappearing as we ran all fresh and talking shit,I cannot respect such a slug of a man, sorry if I disappoint or offend anyone.