Have you been legally helped in an APFT? Have you helped somebody in their test?

2015-10-14T15:31:01-04:00

This morning I was taking my bi-annual APFT and I asked my grader to not sound off the count until I pass 39 sit-ups since I'm required to do 42. Well, there I was doing my sit-ups and I couldn't follow the count because he's voice was really low. When I was almost done, I could barely do more, I ask him "WHERE AM I AT?!" and another NCO, imitating my grader's voice, said 39! All I thought at that moment was, oh, I'm a failure, I'm gonna be flagged, I wont be promoted. I tried my hardest to do 5 more and asked again where was I, he said again, 39! Time was up, and when I thought I failed he came to me and told me, you did good I was just helping you. While it wasn't the best motivation practice, I gotta admit that it helped me.

Have you ever been legally helped in an APFT? Have you ever legally helped somebody?

The constant use of the word "legally" is because I don't want the discussion to deviate in wrong practices.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2015 3:39 PM

2015-10-14T15:39:50-04:00

I usually tell my grader something similar - I usually like to be told when I hit 40 and then in increments of ten after that. I'm a horrible counter while performing s/u or p/u, so it benefits me to know when I hit 40 and how to max out from there.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Oct 14 at 2015 4:28 PM

2015-10-14T16:28:46-04:00

Oh, yeah, padded run times intended to scare you seem to be a staple of the Army....

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2015 4:35 PM

2015-10-14T16:35:20-04:00

Does having your Team Leader, Squad Leader, and Platoon Sergeant running behind you yelling, screaming and promises of killing you if you fail the run count as legal help?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2015 8:38 AM

2015-10-15T08:38:47-04:00

Fm 7-22, Appendix A, Paragraph A-36. "The scorer counts the correct number of repetitions out loud, repeats the last number of the correct repetitions when incorrect repetitions are performed, and verbally corrects push-up and sit-up performances."

The FM is pretty clear--scorers need to count out loud for every repetition. If they don't, there's definitely room to challenge the validity of the test, as it isn't being conducted to the published standard.

There are actually an enormous amount of requirements regarding administration and setup and execution for the APFT; in my limited experience (19+ years taking APFTs), most folks have very little idea about what the standards actually are for an APFT.

For example, on my last APFT: neither the test OIC or NCOIC knew the standard for recovery time between events (no less than 10, no more than 20 minutes, determined by the OIC or NCOIC), and tried to make me do the situps after a break of 7 minutes; the NCOIC attempted to make corrections on my pushups (for allegedly having my feet more than 12 inches apart, per his uncalibrated eye; per the FM, only the scorer (NOT the NCOIC or OIC) can make corrections on repetitions); the location of the push-ups and sit-ups was slightly downhill (so pushups were of the decline variety, and thus harder, and situps were of the decline variety, and thus easier); the run route was only 1.96 miles, as measured by numerous GPS devices; and one portion of the run route exceeded (again, as measured by GPS devices) the authorized 3% grade. While all of us taking the APFT passed, had any of us wanted to challenge the validity of the test, there was plenty of evidence for all results to be cancelled.

Ideally, leaders would understand these requirements and plan appropriately. Often, though, leaders half-ass the conduct of the APFT.

Response by Maj Matt Hylton made Oct 15 at 2015 1:59 PM

2015-10-15T13:59:42-04:00

While this experience is dated and not the APFT, I did have "legal" help one time while at VMI over a decade and a half ago. Our test was different. Maxing the test meant you needed 20 pull-ups, 90 sit-ups in 2 minutes and a 2 mile run in under 12:01. All the official times I took the test my freshman year, I maxed the sit-ups and push-ups no problem, but never got there on the run.

There is additional motivation for your score other than it just being a requirement while at VMI. 1 - your best score during the semester counts as part of your grade for your required physical fitness class each semester. 2 - if you max the test at any point during the year, it counts officially towards your physical fitness grade for the entire year (both semesters) and you don't have to take the test again until the following year.

My roommate over the summer before my sophomore year was a cross country runner. He knew exactly the pace to run to max the run part of the test since he had done it every time. I helped him improve his sit-ups over the summer and he helped me on my pace. More importantly, he also ran the test with me at the beginning of the next year and let me pace off of him the entire time in order to beat 12:00; a pace that was actually about 30-45 seconds slower than his normal 1-mile pace. I got an 11:57 and I know the only reason I did is because Cy was right in front of me the entire time yelling at me to keep up with him on every lap around the track. He maxed his sit-ups too. It was nice for both of us not having to take the test again for the rest of that year.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 15 at 2015 2:33 PM

2015-10-15T14:33:59-04:00

No but I want to bitch! I was 30 and did more push ups than a 19 year old, and he got more points than me. I use start slow on the run, then passing runners became a game until I won!

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Oct 17 at 2015 3:03 PM

2015-10-17T15:03:25-04:00

I don't think what happened to you is fair, or morally correct. Had you stopped thinking you failed, they would be the first ones to try to use this lovely form on you for APFT failure. Maybe the 1SG needs to use it to tell them that what they're doing isn't funny, nor is it helping the Soldier.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2015 3:17 PM

2015-10-17T15:17:27-04:00

I was not but my boss was by his pacer during the run event. I was the time keeper and started calling out the time as he neared. He almost stopped and looked upset. The SFC had told him the wrong time during most of the run to get him to pick up his pace. He passed and word spread. The DCO even went up to the SFC and said I hear you lied to your boss. The SFC just replied, "he passed, Sir". The DCO smiled and walked away.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Oct 17 at 2015 6:36 PM

2015-10-17T18:36:35-04:00

I tell the grader to let me know when I hit 100 then I switch to sit-ups for the remaining minute. Then I jump up immediately and do a warm up mile. I do vehicle inspections while waiting on everyone else.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2015 7:16 PM

2015-10-17T19:16:51-04:00

My issue with this post is the fact that you need to be noted at 39 with a passing score of 42. Or for that matter when someone else said 39, it was a believable for you. From the way you have worded the question it sounds as if you were wanting to hit 42 and stop, or hit 42 and then just skate it until time complete. Wrong answer. I understand that this isn't in relation to your topic but you should never place yourself in a position to be uncertain if you're passing or not. There is a whole lot in our profession that we do not have control of. APFT/H&W is something that is completely on the soldier.

When I take a pt test I don't even consider the "passing" standard. In my book, simply passing, is below standard. Given your age and the fact that your still early in you career the question you should be asking is how fast am I going to hit my max?

In essence this is your profession, this is your career, do not put your livelihood and the livelihood of your family in the hands of someone else.

If you're weak at sit ups in particular take the time in the day to knock out some 2minute drills. We do a lot of hurry up and waiting. Taking 2 minutes to bang out sets of sit ups will help you in your next PT test.

To finally answer your question I don't know of a time I've been legally helped. Certainly never to pass.

Response by SPC David S. made Oct 18 at 2015 5:47 AM

2015-10-18T05:47:17-04:00

I use to run the 2 miles with boots on for the same reason - "I'm not going to let you beat me this year with those damn boots on."

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2015 9:45 AM

2015-10-18T09:45:18-04:00

In OTS my roomie was in danger of wiping out because he could not make the required time in the run ( I forget what the required time was). When the day he had to do it or wipe out I ran with the 1st group and qualified with my time. Then I ran with his group pacing him. He was about to give up when I turned around and started running backwards calling him every name in the book (and a few that could not be printed). He got angry and tried his best to catch me. HE PASSED. And, he did not catch me until he calmed down.

Response by SFC David Davenport made Oct 19 at 2015 12:20 PM

2015-10-19T12:20:06-04:00

I have been a pace runner for several people over the years.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2015 7:19 PM

2015-10-20T19:19:35-04:00

Jesus dude let it go. Your grader is supposed to verbally count outloud. You passed, go have a beer.v

Response by LTC Brian Weyenberg made Oct 20 at 2015 8:52 PM

2015-10-20T20:52:20-04:00

42??? Hope you're 81.

Response by SP6 Alex Evans made Oct 20 at 2015 11:57 PM

2015-10-20T23:57:54-04:00

Holy hell. Let's be glad you didn't have a buddy down you had to haul out before you figured out you could only do 39 push-ups. What in the hell is happening here? NCO's, you'd better pull your head out of your 4th point of contact, time now! Disgusting!

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2015 7:42 PM

2015-12-19T19:42:29-05:00

What's an APFT? J/K!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2016 2:52 PM

2016-03-12T14:52:41-05:00

I did something similar to one of the guys I was taking an APFT with. I wasn't grading, but I had talked with our grader before we started. It was an NCO getting ready to go to Drill School, and he was really struggling with his PT test. So for the first 10 repetitions, I didn't count at all, and then I told him he was still at 1, even though he had accomplished 11 perfectly. I kept counting one, until he got to 20, and then counted from there.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Jul 21 at 2017 6:06 PM

2017-07-21T18:06:10-04:00

I sorta counted to myself and knew exactly where I was, don't understand why you depended on someone else?

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2017 4:09 PM

2017-07-22T16:09:43-04:00

Bi-annual is once every two years. The term you're looking for is semi-annual.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Aug 2 at 2018 2:05 PM

2018-08-02T14:05:00-04:00

Blowing the count because you asked is not technically "legally helping", if you had asked the counter could have remained silent during the whole test, or done it by tens, etc.

Response by SFC Bob Arnold made Jan 15 at 2020 1:27 AM

2020-01-15T01:27:45-05:00

Had a SGM at Fort Leonard Wood that would be at the 1 mile turn around point. He had everyone give him a high five to indicate they reached the turn around point. Every time someone did, he took a step towards the start/finish line, shortening the run.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jan 15 at 2020 8:32 PM

2020-01-15T20:32:23-05:00

I told the fast runners to bring home the slower runners on the 2 mile run. It was good practice all around.

Response by SPC Phillip Vossler made May 22 at 2020 3:21 PM

2020-05-22T15:21:41-04:00

I was never a pt stud, i struggled with my weight, yes i was a "fat boy", never really liked doing pt, so i struggled. There was a pt test i had to take in late jan, early feb 01, that i i had to pass. It allowed me to be promoted to Spc, and to reenlist, as i had less than a year remaining, and i enlisted as a Pfc, i had a Spc (P) that i looked up to, Spc Arnold, at FT Eustis, saw that i was struggling on my run, he ran with me, and found a way to motivate me to get me to pass that run. Had it not been for him, i would have remained a Pfc, and would have left the Army at 3 years, probably, regardless of 9/11. I owe the remainder of my career to him. I served a total of 6 years 4 months and 10 days. And am 100% rated now. It makes me proud and humbled that he saw enough potential in me to do that. I am forever grateful for that true leader.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2020 10:31 PM

2020-05-23T22:31:38-04:00

I was grading an apft. The soldier failed the run by one second. Smoked the other two events. I asked what happens if a soldier failed the run by one second. No one knew the answer. I have the joe that second for I knew he was working on his run.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2020 5:56 PM

2020-05-25T17:56:47-04:00

The only time I encountered an issue as a grader was when the NCOIC standing 10-15 away and not in the grading position told me to terminate a soldier during Sit-ups I told the soldier to keep going. Wrote in the scorecard, and comments section and handed it to the OIC. The MSG then tried to get me on disrespect but my CoC even stated how can you tell at that distance and not in the appropriate position. It was a small victory but the soldier passed, I had the training and experience to know a sit-up. Also there are leaders out there that go “hunting” during an APFT and lose objectivity. Best to be confident and professional in your decision as a grader.