Have you ever put in an IG complaint about a toxic leader or leaders? If so, what was the result?

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 May 2020 10:20:55 -0400

I'm interested in understanding the effectiveness of this process because the topic of "toxic leadership" seems to no longer be a significant talking point lately.
Note: For the purposes of this question, please do not comment on any open investigations. I ask this in order to ensure your safety and mine while also preserving the integrity of your investigation. Thanks!

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made May 1 at 2020 10:42 AM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Fri, 01 May 2020 10:42:58 -0400

I think Toxic leadership is just one of the negative staples of military life that make a general cycle through a unit over time. It's like the tide. Sometimes it's low tide or high tide but eventually it comes and goes. Just like hazing and alcohol related incidents. They aren't always happening but it always seems they are either on the way in or on the way out depending on culture climate and leadership.

I got a close up look to the IG process while with 3rd Marine Air wing Headquarters element. The IG office pulled subject matter experts from the HQ element to fill out the role of inspectors while visiting units for readiness inspections. While I was with the team IG complaints were briefed and handled quickly and with professionalism. It was a matter of pride to ensure things were done correctly and by the letter. But just like Toxic leadership anywhere else I would assume the IG team was only as good as it's members and the leaders they reported to. I'm sure there are some piss poor IG teams out there who work for or are covering up for poor leadership.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2020 10:54 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 May 2020 10:54:28 -0400

Ssgt Murphy has some sage advice here. I’d pull back on the aperture and look at the problem set looking at the 60,000 foot level. I’d be careful not to walk into an ambush here on filing a report. But I also know that you can submit an IG concern to the Army IG.

Response by Maj John Bell made May 1 at 2020 11:15 AM

Maj John Bell — Fri, 01 May 2020 11:15:29 -0400

I am a dinosaur. When I served the phrase "toxic leadership" had not been coined, at least I never heard it. There were many times that I thought the leadership set a bad example or made a bad decision, but to be honest that was just a difference of opinion. Years later, in some of those cases, I might have been wrong, and in some I still feel I was correct.

"Management by walking around" was all the rage. There were no cell phones, and in garrison, there were at least two formations a day. A squad leader didn't think it was strange to have the Battalion or Regimental CO, XO, SgtMaj, and/or Chaplains stop by and have a quick chat, or observe training, every week or two. I can remember seeing the CO's and CG's above my billet fairly regularly. Senior leadership pretty quickly found the "toxic leaders" and they were corrected or dispensed with pretty quickly.

In my last billet, I worked in the CG's office and a collateral duty was to investigate and report on Congrints and request mast to the CG. About 2/3 of the complaints from Marines were because the command would, or would not, treat someone "special." About 1/3 of the complaints were because the command couldn't be bothered with giving a decent answer to an honest question, and there was a rounding error of cases where the command was "toxic." The CG was pretty decisive and trusted my judgment. When I came back and said the command was wrong and unrepentant, he was down there by the end of the day having one-sided, very loud conversations that almost always did the trick the first time.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made May 1 at 2020 11:17 AM

SPC Erich Guenther — Fri, 01 May 2020 11:17:30 -0400

First I heard ever of the term "Toxic Leadership" was during the Clinton Era of DoD. Never heard it mentioned prior to that when discussing Army units. So maybe I lived in a bubble or may it is something that changed with training? Not sure. I am real curious when the phrase started to be used in the Army for those 20-30 year service folks and if they think it was a change in training that is causing this or it always existed and is only now being mentioned? Just my own curiousity on this subject is why I ask.

Response by SrA Ronald Moore made May 1 at 2020 11:25 AM

SrA Ronald Moore — Fri, 01 May 2020 11:25:13 -0400

Response by SGT Herbert Bollum made May 1 at 2020 11:48 AM

SGT Herbert Bollum — Fri, 01 May 2020 11:48:00 -0400

My complaint never had to get to the IG offfice.
When the BN CO saw it and handed it to the CSM to look into, it was handled so fast the 1SG had his head spinning and never saw the taillights. Problem was cured beyond my expectations and he cleaned up his act immediately.
Being as he was my 1SG when I wrote him up he definitely wanted to get even, but he only spoke about it to my PSG and never did anything else about it.
Just having said under CC: who it was going to including IG in the list and I never had a reason to take that copy to them. We had a complaint period coming up in two weeks at the rec center and the CSM only asked if that meant he had two weeks to cure the problem ( I said "you've got it." CSM)

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made May 1 at 2020 12:38 PM

Cpl Jeff N. — Fri, 01 May 2020 12:38:13 -0400

We didn't have the moniker of "toxic leadership" when I was in. We did have people few of us cared for. As they say, prickness is a sickness. If you had a tough platoon sergeant platoon commander, company commander, Battalion commander etc. you just sucked it up and moved on. You adapted to their leadership style as best you could and rode it out. Most people don't turn their issues on and off like a light switch and they normally get nailed at some point. We never viewed it as a problem we needed to solve. Yo can learn a lot, even from a bad manager or leader.

In the civilian world there is no IG report to make or request mast process etc. You learn to work with all types or you do not survive. Over 32 years with my company and 27 different managers (yes 27) you learn to roll with a punch when needed. I suggest you develop thicker skin, learn to take a punch, learn what you can from a bad leader and move on. The only exception is if he is committing a criminal offense or something of the like. Then you need to go to law enforcement.

Response by SFC James Cameron made May 1 at 2020 3:26 PM

SFC James Cameron — Fri, 01 May 2020 15:26:30 -0400

Sir, yes I did while assigned to 3 BDE 3 ID. The end result was an inter-post reassignment. There was no further action concerning the toxicity to my knowledge. The back story was after returning from the USADSA the week of graduation with a 1059 stating “failed to complete course standards.” The reader’s digest version is that I went to the Academy with a shoulder injury and exacerbated the labral tear further during the course. Come final APFT my shoulder locked up during the push up event one repetition short of the 70% standard. I get sent home and before I get there I’m getting calls from my PL and other squad leaders about “watch my back.” Fast forward 10 days and I have been evaluated by orthopedics and have been scheduled for a labral debridement procedure the following week. During this fiasco a 15-6 investigation is begun, I am flagged, barred from reenlistment, and a chapter 13 separation packet is initiated. My CO even attempted to deny the convalescence leave following the surgery. Mind you, I was the bright and shining star of the Company before I left. Upon my return I was the scum of the earth. During my recovery I cooperated with the investigation and spoke with a JAG counselor once I got the whole picture of what was being stacked against me. I did 2 things upon the completion of the 15-6: I used the DIV CSM’s open door policy to inform him of the IG complaint and filed an IG complaint. My goal during this entire situation was to allow the toxic individuals in my Chain of Command get in so far over their heads that there was no way plausible deniability or feigned ignorance would be a useful excuse. The IG investigation was completed in 3 days and I have already given the end state. I never stopped training my Soldiers or performing my duties as a WSL leading up to the surgery or following the recovery. I just held my head high and still did what right looked like throughout the whole thing.

Response by CPT Brock Young made May 1 at 2020 3:42 PM

CPT Brock Young — Fri, 01 May 2020 15:42:04 -0400

I have been interested in this topic to the point of writing about it several times in both the ARMY Magazine and Task & Purpose. Up front, at least in the Army, from what I've experienced it's not the IG's realm to fix "toxic leadership." That is a Command responsibility (be it company, BN, BDE or higher).

IG's review processes, identify where shortcomings or failure are, and file reports for the applicable level of command to consider. The decision to change rests with the commander.

That's the insidiousness of some types of toxic leaders. They are "effective," meaning they accomplish the tasks given to them. They probably follow the strictest letter of the regulation, so there is no process to fix. Their metrics rock, so there is no visible shortcoming. They make their superiors look good, so there is no incentive to change what's happening (even if it's the subordinates doing all of the work). So if you're trapped in a toxic environment where these things are going on, there is quite literally nothing the IG can do for you.

It's my honest opinion that it takes courage and a willingness to do the right thing on the part of senior leaders to combat toxic leadership. But I've seen that those traits are few and far between. If your BDE commander doesn't want to do anything about the toxic BN commander, there's nothing the company commander can do but keep their heads down and slog it out until the change of command. You can talk to the Chaplains, and CSMs; you can utilize open door policies and speak your peace; but in the end, it takes that next level commander to step up and do something.

I honestly wish the Army had a system set up like SSgt Christophe Murphy describes, but I just haven't seen it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2020 4:38 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 May 2020 16:38:33 -0400

Just posting for knowledge’s sake regarding “toxic” leadership. ADP 6-22 was updated last November and formally defines what most of us know to be “toxic” leadership.

I think they nailed it.

Response by Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin made May 1 at 2020 5:07 PM

Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin — Fri, 01 May 2020 17:07:44 -0400

IG complaint? No. Does such a thing warrant an IG complaint? After all, bad leadership can still follow the rules while making bad decisions, issuing bad orders, and evaluating people to poor or bias standards.

However, I have taken part in climate surveys (Not sure if this is just an Air Force thing or what the equivalent in the Army is). One would assume that a survey that is built to be anonymous and asks the unit to be an candid as possible would generate more repercussions than I've seen.

Now I've been on both sides of the coin, where I have been the leadership and I have commented on the leadership. On the receiving end my leadership peers and I come away with only two areas to work on (just below 70), with all the other areas in 80 or above. What I learned from the experience is that the leadership is mandated to address to the unit how they intend to work on those areas below 70s and provide that plan to higher leadership as well.

On two occasions I have witnessed two very bad climate survey assessments directed at my leadership (of which I participated in). I have seen a majority of the areas fall below the 50s and 60s, with the rest barely over the 70s. How do those leaders get to continue on, I could never understand. This is what generates the perception of toxic leadership because the unit never gets to know how this has affected those leaders. We can only hope it finds its way into their OPRs (FITREPS, etc) and that it will hold them back from advancing into higher levels of leadership. But it doesn't... or at east not from what I've seen.

I've watched good leaders get pushed out of the military and toxic leaders find ways to keep advancing. No system is perfect, I get that, but over the last 10-15 years I've read about more and more accounts on toxic leadership than I have in my initial 15 years in the Air Force. Maybe I've become more attuned to it, but I hear the frustrations coming out the mouths of junior officer and enlisted alike. It needs to be dealt with.

Response by SSG George Holtje made May 1 at 2020 11:54 PM

SSG George Holtje — Fri, 01 May 2020 23:54:58 -0400

I have never made a complaint. I have made some research calls and reported what IG reps have stated.
(I have also told disrespectful, complaining unruly soldiers to call IG, Ill get you the number, use my cellphone, if you say my name wrong I’ll hit you while you’re talking to them and you can tell them I said you’re calling IG because you’re a Whitney crybaby with the guts to face me and no guts to face the real enemy)
Anyone who opens a complaint better have the facts straight. Toxic leadership is not my leader chewed me out for being late for formation or having my hands in my pocket.
Refusing to acknowledge a RedCross EAM. Finding excuses to work late on a daily basis(2100 not 1705). Choosing not to inform a soldier that his promotion formation was backed up an hour.
Frequently calling IG for trivial issues can lead to circumstances like refusal to take calls from certain units.
Everything in this post is based on actual events

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made May 2 at 2020 11:44 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Sat, 02 May 2020 11:44:47 -0400

People expect the IG to be the end all of end all. Far from it, because of their Charter. IGs are interested in following proper procedure, meeting required standards, etc. Toxic Leadership is not in the Charter. It can be a driver in not meeting some aspect of the yardsticks out there. Retention below the mark is an easy one to look at. IGs had better not dabble in "fairness" or "judgement". It's not in their Charter either. Not meeting some measurable aspect of your requirements results in a judgement by your next senior Commander, not some wonk who's not in the CoC. I've had IGs on my staff and have worked closely with them on varied investigations. I'm in the pro IG usefulness camp. If you take a look at what comes through their door, keep an eye out for the whines and gripes percentage which is an indicator of a morale problem. Whines and gripes are not typically actionable by the IG. Also take a look at the morale of the IG staff. You can tell fairly quickly if they are considered a valuable part of the team, ignored, shunted to the side, or not supported. I remember about 30% of the IG complaints were from about 5 people and were in the "I'm not happy" whiner category. The IG was very pleased the CoC dealt with the whiners and the resultant morale boost in their shop and overall in the Command. Most Commanders miss out on the Intel capability of the IG in that they have a unique insight into the overall Command. They have a pretty good idea where the weak spots are usually by the volume or repetition of stuff that comes through their door. By weak spots, that is easily traceable to the disconnect in the CoC between two people. Finally, an IG complaint many times isn't about what comes in the door. It's about a perception. Sometimes the "about" is much more worse than the complaint. That triggers Admin Investigations and JAGMANs. Done those too.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2020 1:36 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 May 2020 13:36:21 -0400

I sorta did, except my issue was a little more complicated. I filed a formal complaint against two USGOV civil servants. I had to basically file a complaint against my company. I was a government contractor working for one of the subs in an Air Force organization that runs virtual combat simulations for joint and combined C2 training. The place had a neat mission, but was the most hostile place I have ever worked for. For starters the two GS civilians were horrible. One was a GS13 and held the position of senior technical advisor for the unit. That in essence made her the highest ranking civilian in the organization. The other was a GS12 who was the units security manager. She was a retired Senior Master Sergeant cop widower and a busy body. I worked for a PM who was a retired O5 F-15E pilot, who had worked in the organisation previously as a blue suiter who was in his terminal job. The PM belonged to the prime, so I was not directly under him, in the contracting world, its more of a customer client relation, although for all practical purposes he was the boss for day to day tasks. The relationship was that the GS's hated our PM, he was a dirtbag as well. In order for them to go after the PM, they had to go after us minions on the front lines. We would get complaints for minor things like spending too much time at the break room or talking to long on the phone, even if it was for official purposes. They had the nerve to watch the parking lots to see if people were coming in late, etc.

My issue started with the busy body security manager. She took issue with the fact I used my reservist ID card to come on base instead of the green striped contractor one. She was behind me a few times when coming on base. If you wondering how she knew it was me, I drive an 02 Yellow Vette my government one I get saluted at the gate. No, that is not the reason I used the my reservist one. I did find that I got less hassle going through the gate as a serviceman versus a dirtbag contractor.

First she complained to my boss verbally that I was not complying with my contract for not using my contractor credential. Next time her and the technical manager filed a complaint against the contract for non-compliance. This got me an illegal write up from the prime PM, who was not allowed to write up subs. His route is to my company's PM for him to decide corrective actions. After that write up I wrote a letter of intent to the PM and my company that intend on filing a formal complaint with the department of labor and possibly getting a labor attorney involved for tolerating an abusive relationship from the USGOV and their two employees who were abusing their authority and taking punitive actions against us. I gave them a week ultimatum and the complaint would be filed to the USDOL and I will be making an appointment with a lawyer.

That fixed it, the wing did not want to have a formal complaint against one of their squadrons for a hostile work environment. I got an apology from the SQ/CC, which I should have gotten it from the GS dirtbags. We had no beef against the blue suiters, our relationship was pretty good with the uniformed staff. Our issues were always with the GS civies who think that they are micro monarchs.

Side story, I went to work for the same organization a few years later on orders as a blue suiter, on orders as a reservist for four months, while they were waiting for an active duty guy to arrive who was inbound, but still in ACSC. The same lady tried to cop an attitude with me again by pointing out that my uniform does not give me any special privileges over being a contractor. I said, well it does give me the right to straight to the IG if she is abusing her authority, especially if her actions appear retaliatory toe what I did to her and the SSO as a contractor. We had no problem after that, she managed to stay out of my way.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2020 1:32 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 May 2020 13:32:38 -0400

I put one in for a toxic civilian co-worker and filed a formal complaint with their supervisor for breaching a Soldiers PII and telling others what was in the record. Not only did the IG come back with “the command has taken proper action” but that “proper action” was a promotion and given an SSA job.

Toxicity, I mean real toxicity, is often a result of long-term stabilization within a singular organization. People who gain power and remain in it for years figure out who they can trust, who they need to protect and who is expendable. It’s really bad in the reserves because you can have someone be under the same C2 their entire career, retire and go right back in as a civilian. They’re friends with all the right decision makers or they ARE the decision makers. The most distrusted individuals in a reserve component organization are the tight-knit group of civilians who have been working together since they all came into the unit several years prior.