Hazing vs Tradition?

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Dec 2013 01:12:03 -0500

What is your take on this subject? What do you consider to be hazing? What is still being done after a promotion, skill school (Abn/AASLT) or reenlistment etc? We all know what 1SG Carpenter did to newly promoted SGT Roach, hitting him in the chest with a wooden mallet and beyond Hazing, in my opinion, it was assault. What are we seeing still going on that you would consider carrying on traditions?   <div><br></div><div>*No name dropping or units </div>

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Dec 24 at 2013 2:33 AM

1SG Steven Stankovich — Tue, 24 Dec 2013 02:33:56 -0500

I remember that instance with 1SG Carpernter and SGT Roach. No questions asked...that was assualt. I believe that there is a huge difference between military traditions and hazing/assault. I never saw anything wrong with the awarding of "blood rank" when folks got promoted back in the day. I never saw anything wrong with "blood wings" for the ABN guys. I never saw anything wrong with the "thrashing" one would receive while going through a Spur Ride.

What I do see that is wrong are things like you mentioned, specifically the wooden mallet incident. A mallet? I mean really? There is absolutely a reason to keep military traditions like these. I believe that they increase camraderie. There is no place however, for assault.

Response by CPO Jon Campbell made Dec 27 at 2013 10:24 AM

CPO Jon Campbell — Fri, 27 Dec 2013 10:24:52 -0500

I realized that as a civilian cop I was seeing young people on college campuses getting charged with hazing while military members doing the same things were calling the behavior initiation and tradition. A member of my reserve unit was dishonorably discharged after being charged criminally by civilian police for hazing while at college. His behavior would not have been viewed as criminal by the military if it had happened on base.

When the CG suspended initiation for chiefs to develop guidelines, the rules that emerged shed light on some of the extreme things that had been going on. The policy is bizzare reading and talks about chickens, caskets, body fluids, and dozens of other things. Initiation is fiercely defended by many, but I think that the results its defenders are after could be achieved in other ways if tradition wasn't such an issue.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2013 11:09 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Dec 2013 11:09:03 -0500

I agree with ya’ll about what 1SG
Carpenter did. Clearly that was assault it was not in the “grey area” between
hazing and tradition. My personal opinion was formed after an event I was
witness to. The old tradition of pinning your new rank into your collar bones
from when I was a private was a moment
that I was proud to be a part of, standing there chest high having the 1SG pin
your SGT rank into your BDUs and before then your platoon ensuring that your
rank was secure in your uniform. What I saw was unintentional but left the
effect on that NCO when he smashed the rank into the Soldiers collar it
actually broke then collar of the Soldier. From that point on I will not allow
my Soldiers to pin Soldiers in that manner, or punch them in the chest when
they are promoted. This tradition I do not think is hazing but can easily cross
the line as hazing. There are still CSMs out there that will take the breath
out of you when you are promoted to a higher rank of NCO.

Corrective PT “Smoking” this is a
fine line as well, but I do believe in it. I have had Soldiers that were
counseled on whatever they did and continued the action. My team leaders and I
took him into the wood line away from the rest of the platoon and scuffed him
up. I never had a issue from this Soldier again and he turned into one of the
best young leaders in my platoon. Can the line be crossed? Absolutely it can be
this is when you have to be a professional and not take out personal feelings
on a Soldier.

Again, I do not believe in punching
beating verbally abusing Soldiers to the point that they feel that they are
being discriminated against.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2013 11:19 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Dec 2013 11:19:48 -0500

One tradition that was conducted while I was growing up in the army was when someone was promoted to the rank of sergeant we would get a mop bucket full of water, maybe add some things into it such as dirt, trash etc. put them in the front leaning rest position and then pour the water over the top of them while they were doing the push-ups.... Another one is after being promoted to sergeant they would take the formation give the command of half left face and conduct push-ups.... As a 1SG, I do not allow any of these type of tactics to occur, normally the person being promoted will have a family member there or they will be personnel from outside the company attending the ceremony, I will not jeopardize my career or any of my soldiers career due to hazing... perception always wins!

Response by SFC Thomas Chappell made Dec 27 at 2013 3:13 PM

SFC Thomas Chappell — Fri, 27 Dec 2013 15:13:19 -0500

Before velcro was used for rank I had every rank pounded into my collar. For me and so many others this signified that we had earned our rank or bagdes and served as a reminder of our achievements. And it was just the "cool" thing to do LOL. We did maybe get out of hand occasionally but it was always optional and we all looked forward to our next promotion. I have a lot of very fond memories of our traditions.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2013 3:16 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Dec 2013 15:16:43 -0500

First, the NCO induction ceremony is a tradition, hitting your Soldier in the chest with a mallet is not. (I have seen this before but it still blows my mind)

There will always be a fine line between continuing traditions and hazing. I will always be a little torn as to if certain "traditions" should still be allowed or not. I can't say that I personally am against these "traditions" (i.e. bloodrank/wings, wetting down, etc) with caveats like does the Soldier have the option to opt out of these ceremonies. The other issue is that it does not matter what I really think or feel the Army has set a standard, as such traditions will need to change to the needs of the Army.

There is definitely something to be said for shared hardships creating a more cohesive unit and putting Soldiers on a common ground. For the last decade plus our shared hardship has been one or more deployments. I believe may see a resurgence of these traditions as we wind down, we have to develop the right traditions to groom our Soldiers.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2013 3:46 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Dec 2013 15:46:38 -0500

<p>When I was in the Marines in the early 80's, anytime you were promoted you had to walk the 'guantlet' (which was your Marine peers on either side of your arms forming a line on both sides - as you moved forward they would 'pin' your stripes on your upper arms by hitting you - when you moved to NCO status you would also receive your 'bloodstripe' on the side of your legs).</p><p> </p><p>Of course, some people are nice and just give you a soft punch to the arm and/or kick to the leg - but others are more sadistic and try to see how much pain you can take.  </p><p> </p><p>That is where the problem lies with 'traditions' and/or 'hazing'.  There are always those that take things to the extreme and want to inflict pain and suffering.</p><p> </p><p>In the Air Force, when someone got promoted - they would have a couple of the individual's chain of command stand on either side of the person and 'pin' the new stripes on by hitting the upper arm (for the most part it was never painful), but just like when I was in the Marines you always have some individuals that shouldn't be part of these types of 'traditions' due to their violent tendencies.  </p><p> </p><p>This is where the chain of command should be involved, they should be in attendance in these types of events - and state ahead of time that unneccessary force will not be tolerated during the ceremony.  If these types of events were supervised by higher authorities and kept tame then the 'traditions' could continue without all of the pain and/or suffering caused by those sick and misguided individuals who get off hurting others for no reason.     </p>

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2013 4:02 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Dec 2013 16:02:25 -0500

I might be in the minority here...but I think the Army is wayyyyyy too oversensitive. I joined the Army in 2001 - I don't know that many would consider that the "old" Army...and I've been "hazed" repeatedly.

But it's to the ridiculous point where I (not even heavily) did a mock punch to someone's rank when I promoted them and I was told "that's the quickest way for you to wake up and find out you're not a 1SG anymore"...

...that someone might record it and who knows how hard it might look in a photo. Ridiculous in my opinion...

Needless to say you have to tread lightly in the Army these days. :/

Response by MSgt John Taylor made Dec 27 at 2013 6:36 PM

MSgt John Taylor — Fri, 27 Dec 2013 18:36:04 -0500

If it inflicts pain, or damages something you own, then its gone too far.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2013 6:39 PM

LCpl Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Dec 2013 18:39:11 -0500

Cohesion through shared hardship. Traditions such as 'bloodstriping' in the Marine Corps are as old as they come. It isn't demeaning in any sense. It goes back as a reminder of the origins of the blood stripe, the sacrifice made by others. But it's also congratulatory, a sign of respect given by those who have come before you and have ALSO been through the same experiences to say "welcome into our ranks." Its not singling someone out and making them do something individually on the fly. Its not demeaning or meant to break your mental spirit. Call it "assault" but any NCO or Lance waiting to become one welcomes it, the same way poolees waiting to ship off to boot camp welcome their drill instructors, because it IS a rite of passage, despite all the PC bullshit of MCRD being the only right of passage in the Corps.

Now an easy way to distinguish is how well it is known. It's well known most NCO's upon picking up corporal will get it. Everyone knows what to expect. It starts becoming hazing when people randomly take it upon themselves to start "creating" tradition, or morphing it to THEIR standards.

On a side note, I think the much bigger issue isn't tradition vs hazing but TRAINING vs hazing. I can't stand when simply things such as push-ups for dropping your rifle or screwing up a rank is now considered hazing. It teaches you to not screw-up, to get things right the first time, to pay attention to detail and learn to care for your weapon/gear. It should be the standard. I've heard many units making it cohesion through shared hardship; 28 for 2/8 or 17 for 1/7 (examples). Or 5 push-ups for every rank you "demote" someone or everytime you drop your rifle and then keep adding 5 until they finally learn. I feel as long as its a simple "you do this and this is what happens" it takes away the whole negative and personal demeanor of hazing.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2013 6:58 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Dec 2013 18:58:01 -0500

I am very much on the fence about this subject.

There is the part of me who refuses to be out done. If someone else can take it, so can I. I never want to feel like I got off light or easy.

At the same point, integrity and cohesion must be maintained. Things that are shameful and create disparity to the person on the receiving end can be very harmful.

There is a point where many traditions have fallen by the wayside. Some for good reasons, like blood wings. Some have been almost shameful in their loss....like throwing the LT in the lake after thier first IRB completion.

I think common sense and intent need to become more prevelant and guiding, than PC norms. If something is common, not harmful, and helps drive cohesion...then it should be fair game. Lightly tagging on new rank (in the velcro world) never seemed harmful to me. Note, I said lightly....not using a mallet. Most units I have been in have done this. No one took an unfair shot or hit that hard. It was considered to be a bit of a tradition. Now, it is not done and highly discouraged. It's a bit disappointing to me. People who could not be responsible or who were idiots may have ruined something.

It's amazing that there are many things that can be done in training but if they were done as part of a right of passage, it would be considered hazing. An example would be spraying Soldiers with a waterhose while doing PT. During training at CDQC, Ranger School, or anywhere else this may be perfectly acceptable. However, if you do it for those who are pinning on new rank, it would be considered hazing.

It's hard to find that line and most of us in leadership just err on the side of caution.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2013 6:06 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Dec 2013 06:06:44 -0500

Hazing in colleges reached the level of homicide and abuse. As I see it, it might be within a closed environment but I worry that a vulnerable person who is not like will be harassed to the point of illegality.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2013 11:32 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Dec 2013 11:32:20 -0500

Unfortunately some folks don't know where to draw the line. For example, a friendly pop in the chest after a pinning ceremony with a smile and "Congratulations!" is a whole lot different than drilling someone in the center of the chest to knock them down. By dialing down the intensity, we can maintain traditions while still respecting the Soldier, the unit, and the family members present that may not understand the military, or some of its' unofficial traditions. That's probably why any time I got blood wings, it was always in a strictly military formation, out of the sight of non-participants. Only those who have earned the right to be in the ceremony witnessed it, and it was 100% voluntary. (Although getting my third set pinned in one day may not have been advisable....haha)

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2014 8:06 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Jan 2014 20:06:32 -0500

I may just be a SGT but I have recieved what some may consider "hazing" in the eyes of some. When I was awarded my Expert Infantrymans Badge, I had that SOB pounded into my chest by everyone who had their own. I got a feeling as if I had been accepted into a fraternity of some sort. The same occoured when I revived my stripes and so on. At no point did I ever feel degraded or anything where the heck do we draw the line. I'm not gonna bash on soft shell mos's but the majority I have met believe dropping a soldier for more than 5 push ups is hazing. The point I'm trying to make is where has the backbone gone where did we fail by letting college born officers run the decisions and traditions we as NCO's uphold?

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2014 8:06 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Jan 2014 20:06:33 -0500

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2014 5:06 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jan 2014 05:06:06 -0500

For me personally there are certain things that I wanted that have now been classified as hazing. An example of this is the earning the stripes/rank. Before my time I know that these sometimes would be pounded into the collar bone of the recipient. During my time so far I have witnessed plenty of brand new Sergeant and Staff Sergeants get the rank literally slammed into their chest (Velcro'd on with a punch to ensure it's locked in).

I wanted that when I make my rank, but I am being told that "the powers that be" cannot let it happen is it would be grounds for Article 15's for those who are the would be "Hazers".

Something things are cultural rights of passage and being in the U.S. Military, we have plenty of these types of events. In fact US Army Basic Training calls one of these events a "Right of Passage Ceremony". I don't want to see these things go away, it's who we are....

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2014 4:34 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:34:43 -0500

BLUF: hazing is taking advantage of and abusing subordinates and is detrimental to unit cohesion and morale. Tradition fosters comraderie and espirit de corps through the experience of shared hardships.

There is a difference between hazing and tradition and leaders at all levels need to exercise common sense to understand the difference between the two. If it is illegal, immoral, or unethical, it is hazing. There is nothing wrong with embracing the shared harships that come along with our profession of arms, but we definitelty need to understand the differance between hazing and tradition. Now personally, I don't think a slight punch in the rank, "wetting down", or push-ups should be considered hazing, but you need to be careful. The 1SG who slammed a brand new E-5 in the chest with a wooden mallet (he ended up having a seizure and dying) clearly committed assault.

I went to a military school and experienced my fair share of what would be considered hazing. Did it make me a better leader? No. But I did experience some extremely demanding training that pushed me to my mental and physical limits and turned strangers into brothers. That did make me a better leader, I think. I think that because there was a clear purpose to everything we did, we couldn't do it alone, and it helped us all grow and work as a team. Some of the senior cadets who hazed me, were clearly not role models or leaders to emulate. In fact, I lost a lot of respect for some of the worst offenders when some serious injuries happened to some good friends. So how can you expect to be a good leader when you abuse your Soldiers and then expect them to have your back in battle?

See the discussion "Hazing vs Tradition?" for more info on this.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2015 7:12 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2015 07:12:51 -0400

Strictly prohibited by AR 600-20 so you have no choice, the Army already chose for you.

Response by PO1 John Meyer, CPC made May 3 at 2015 7:36 AM

PO1 John Meyer, CPC — Sun, 03 May 2015 07:36:45 -0400

We have the same thing in the Navy, only we call it "tacking on" and it's also against regulations.

But that has very little to do with the actual tradition.

Tacking on ranks is a very old British Navy tradition from the days of the sailing Navy. When a British sailor advanced in rank, their seniors would sew on or "tack" their new rank device to their uniform as a way of congratulations.

Now where this developed into punching a person as hard as you could in the arm to ensure their rank wouldn't fall off, I have no idea. I had my rank "tacked" on from E-4 to E-6 using the new tradition. Good thing I was made of stronger stuff because I've seen some serious injuries from very bad burses to broken arms.

Response by SPC Rory J. Mattheisen made May 6 at 2016 7:43 PM

SPC Rory J. Mattheisen — Fri, 06 May 2016 19:43:19 -0400

I had my rank set as well as each set of wings that I earned but it was optional due to the changing nature of the Army, I believe that hazing sorts out actual soldiers from the posers and that a return to traditions would sift out all of the troops that are crying about the rights they signed away the day they enlisted. As far as hazing going to far that is where senior NCO's should step in, they did in my unit. Hazing was a part of our unit dynamic, two rolls of 100MPH tape and an unsuspecting target was a sure fire way to raise esprit de corps!

Response by SSG Kenneth Ponder made Feb 8 at 2020 5:23 PM

SSG Kenneth Ponder — Sat, 08 Feb 2020 17:23:41 -0500

Dont believe in hazing, its chickenshit!
Lot of guys get off on it. Payback is serious business. Pain dont mattet

Response by SSG Kenneth Ponder made Feb 8 at 2020 5:30 PM

SSG Kenneth Ponder — Sat, 08 Feb 2020 17:30:00 -0500

Nothings wrong with blood wings, or the tradition for promotion. Most guys take it to far. Don't agree with hazing, you want violence, pain, blood. You can damn well get brother.