Honor grad with a profile?

2016-02-21T21:45:28-05:00

So I have a service member at ALC right now and she was told that because she has a profile she cannot be awarded honor grad or distinguished honor grad. Her profile is not a temp and she has had it for a while now from an injury while driving her country. I do know that they can say she is not able to earn it with a temp profile but this is not the case. How in the hell can this not be an EO violation? This would be the same as me telling my squad leader he is not allowed to be my squad leader any longer because he is black. That is wrong and so is this. How can tradoc think that this is something that they can get away with. She was also told that this is brigade policy. That is why I through the bull shit flag. Will my rally point family help me out here?

Response by SGT Jonathon Caldwell made Feb 21 at 2016 9:51 PM

2016-02-21T21:51:17-05:00

When I went through BLC/WLC at Ft. Bliss, it was the same way. That was a policy at the schoolhouse that was run by the SMA academy. It was do to the fact that they were unable to take an actual APFT and had to take an alternate event.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2016 9:52 PM

2016-02-21T21:52:55-05:00

When I went through SLC they told us that while a permanent profile would not preclude you from making honor or distinguished honor grad alone, the fact that you wouldn't be competitive against someone who could do all three events and score well would make it almost impossible

Response by SGT Jonathon Caldwell made Feb 21 at 2016 9:53 PM

2016-02-21T21:53:17-05:00

I do agree it's BS though due to the fact that those distinguished awards should solely be on the academic portion of the course due to the fact the the only requirement is to pass an APFT.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2016 10:00 PM

2016-02-21T22:00:24-05:00

Yes it's wrong, try to find the policies for that ALC

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2016 10:18 PM

2016-02-21T22:18:45-05:00

I am a course manager for 11B ALC and you can not attend school with a profile unless it's a permanent profile. There is nothing stating you can not get it while on a profile. Call TRADOC and ask them if you really want to open a can of worms.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 12:00 AM

2016-02-22T00:00:10-05:00

The Army's EO Policy is: The US Army will provide Equal Opportunity and fair treatment for military personnel, family members, and DA civilians without regard to race, color, religion, gender, or National origin, and provide an environment free from sexual harassment.

At no point does that policy cover APFT guidelines/profiles. This is clearly not an EO violation.

Most ALCs and SLCs use the APFT as a factor in the grade point average. 300/3 = 100 points; etc. Additionally, some list 270 or above as a requirement for Commandants List, HG, or DHG.

If she scored a 208 and it was the "second [best] in the class", I weep for our NCO Corps.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Feb 22 at 2016 3:18 AM

2016-02-22T03:18:17-05:00

Not sure what the Army policy it but it was always USMC policy that all Leadership (NCO, Career Course, Advanced Course) and career advancement schools(D.I. MSG and recruiter) had to be attended while you were on a full duty status. You weren't allowed to even start the courses on light duty.
If you were injured during the course you could miss one ot 2 events,,, anything longer than that you were either dropped to the next class or sent home. School slots are valuable commodities. While you want to give your people a chance to go through the priority should be tro those who can compltete the entire curiculum.

Response by SFC Donald Neal made Feb 22 at 2016 4:27 AM

2016-02-22T04:27:17-05:00

It should not preclude her eligibility for honor grad or commandant's list. That's why they have the high PT award, or whatever name they have for it. The school should have (if not required to have) a PT policy which addresses how permanent profiles are treated with regard to PT during the course and testing. Even the Drill Sergeant School had one, when I went through and when I worked there. I also remember a similar policy when I attended ANCOC (ALC).

There should be some questions if the cadre understand the course curriculum, standards, and policies. There should also be some questions regarding their abilities in applying/enforcing the standards evenly across the whole of the student population.

I strongly recommend you use the one of the more underutilized resources any leader should have access to. Talk to your IG about the standards for NCOES courses and get them involved in assisting you in understanding what the true standards are with regard to this course. They have the training and knowledge of Army regulations, policies, and intent to ensure you and everyone else understands what is supposed to be happening.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 22 at 2016 6:37 AM

2016-02-22T06:37:43-05:00

The requirements for course honors must be listed in the Student Evaluation Plan/Individual Student Assessment Plan, which must be made available to the student. If it's not listed in the SEP/ISAP, then it's not a requirement.

Response by SFC Craig Dalen made Feb 22 at 2016 7:49 AM

2016-02-22T07:49:18-05:00

I am currently the Senior SGL for 13B ALC here at Fort Sill. With a permanent profile she cannot be removed from honors. The honors is based on the SM academic average and no negative counseling due to misconduct. I don't know where she is at currently but that is wrong.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 7:59 AM

2016-02-22T07:59:02-05:00

I thought that was why there is an Iron Soldier award, to cover down on the physical part while the honor awards were for academic. Oh well, all my distinguished/honor certs from AIT, BNCOC, WOBC and WOAC have done nothing for me other than make my 'I Love Me' book look better.

I am sure that the majority of Soldiers can pass the PT test but I doubt that if they brought back the SQT we could get even a 50% pass rate. Whether or not you have always served in positions for your MOS, you should do your best to maintain a basic proficiency (and NCOES is supposed to assist in that.)

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 9:44 AM

2016-02-22T09:44:03-05:00

I would call BS on this BDE policy as well. I just got back from AMEDD ALC Phase 2 and while there was APFT standards to be met to be in the running for Honor/Distinguished Grad, there was NOTHING in the papers stating that a perm profile will automatically exclude from the running. Personally, I would contact TRADOC and get clarification on that "policy," and if TRADOC says that is not their policy then that can of worms needs opening with an EO complaint.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 10:09 AM

2016-02-22T10:09:29-05:00

The schoolhouse commandant will set what conditions need to be met for HG and DHG. Many times, the APFT is a component of that. I recall going to two of my NCOES courses where a profile precluded you earning HG or DHG; it was right in the welcome letter.
When I was in BNCOC, I demolished the rest of the class with GPA, assessments, and written work. From what I got in feedback, it wasn't close. But I was not the DHG - in fact I think that they didn't have one that cycle specifically because of this - and they told me that the reason why was that I was a SFC. (Long story short, when I was promoted to SFC in 2005, I was on my second tour in a row with only a few months in between. At the time, there was a BNCOC waiver, but you had to complete it within 12 months of redeployment or they took the stripe away.) I thought that I got jobbed, but at the end of the day, the DA 1059 was still glowing and I had completed the course.

I concur with SGM Private RallyPoint Member that this is not an EO situation. And for the reasons that he states.

I do think that there is room to challenge the policy, but in order to do so, you need to see it in writing. If it is not in writing - the old "unspoken generally accepted standard", than they are wrong and your Soldier should be considered.

The question that I'd be asking myself if I were the commandant is did the best Soldier receive the honor of HG/DHG? If I felt like the best Soldier was one that did the walk, I would be looking to change the policy.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 10:25 AM

2016-02-22T10:25:24-05:00

I'm sure the same folks who told this gal she can't be awarded honor grad or distinguished honor grad for being on a permanent profile would also be on her ass if she were to have a less-than-stellar GPA.

In any case, it's not an EO complaint, because it doesn't fall within the protected categories: race, color, gender, religion, national origin, or sexual orientation. Have your soldier go visit the IG, not EO.

I've been through the Army's EO Leader Course..... this is what they taught us.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 11:11 AM

2016-02-22T11:11:55-05:00

The syllabus of the course should have a clear expectation of what a Soldier must accomplish in order to graduate with honors. I would recommend that you discuss it with the SGL and class leadership.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 12:03 PM

2016-02-22T12:03:25-05:00

Maybe it's a class that values intellect over meat headedness?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 2:35 PM

2016-02-22T14:35:46-05:00

I agree with many here. what is really sad is that a profiled soldier with a 208 APFT was the second highest in the class.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 5:49 PM

2016-02-22T17:49:04-05:00

Totally wrong and inconsistent with TR 350-10 as well as EO I'm sure.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 6:55 PM

2016-02-22T18:55:20-05:00

This is the first time I have ever heard of anyone from not being considered for Honors due to a permanent. Where is this again?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 1:09 AM

2016-02-23T01:09:48-05:00

If she was tied in the race for honors with somebody else, then the school will need to use a "positive discrimator" to set apart the best candidate. If she had the same grade average as another SM then the APFT score could be used to pick the SM that will receive the honors. I'm unaware if there's something missing in the story. Keep in mind that NCOES courses are becoming more challenging and competitive since is been outlined as a positive discrimator for promotions as outlined in past years' AARs.

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made Feb 23 at 2016 6:35 AM

2016-02-23T06:35:00-05:00

Pretty lame. There is nothing wrong with being the smartest wolf in the pack and having a bum leg for a bit. Brains and cunning can overcome strength most of the time.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 11:15 AM

2016-02-23T11:15:47-05:00

You may not know the whole story. Try and get as much information as you can before you start doing anything. A permanent profile does not exclude you from graduating with honors. The only way I can think it limits her if they factor in a PT score and don't use the averages for here excluded event. When in doubt you can always call the schoolhouse and talk to their training personnel.

Response by SFC(P) Tobias M. made Feb 23 at 2016 9:51 PM

2016-02-23T21:51:56-05:00

Thank you everyone for your comments. As for what she did. She wrote a letter to the commandant with her problems. This solved problems then caused more. The issue that was cause was with the SFC she was having problems with in the first place. He told her and a couple fellow students that the only reason she got HG was because she was gruntaled about what was going on. The tradoc reg States that they take the average but they were not doing that. Then this E7 told another HG student that he wasn't giving it to her because she was pretty. He also told stories about his personal life that he shouldn't be telling. And is dating the E8 in charge of him.

Response by SSG Jay OConnor made Feb 25 at 2016 2:30 PM

2016-02-25T14:30:05-05:00

I would write my congressman and put some heat on them because that's total crap

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 1 at 2018 6:28 PM

2018-02-01T18:28:03-05:00

Yeah no. I have a permanent and was awarded honors...