Honorable discharges for PT failures?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 00:03:48 -0400

Do you feel that is fair that Soldiers are getting honorable discharges for PT failure? I feel like some Soldiers are using it as a scapegoat to get out of the Army. Do you agree?

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 12:55 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 00:55:52 -0400

If the SM fails one APFT, they should be placed on remedial pt with Master Fitness Trainer, if trained properly the SM should increase in all areas of the APFT!

A separation for APFT failures, doesn't always result in a honorable discharge. So if they care about their future at all and understand the consequences, just mentioning the fact that a honorable discharge isn't guaranteed may be enough to "scare" them into shape.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 1:58 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 01:58:37 -0400

I really don't care if they scapegoat APFT/BF failure to get out of the Army to be honest.<br><br>If they are doing it, they don't want to be here and in turn, I don't want them here.  Keeping those types around always had a negative impact on discipline and morale, so as a 1SG, I used to try to give them the expressway to the....uhhh....expressway.<br><br>Plus, we are having to cut the force significantly in the upcoming years, they are just helping to reach the goals.<br>

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Mar 13 at 2014 6:57 AM

SGM Matthew Quick — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 06:57:30 -0400

I agree with MSG Gianunzio, but if a Soldier is manipulating the system by continuously and purposely failing to meet a set standard (and proper rehabilitation has been afforded), yes, PFC Bergstrom, these Soldiers should receive a General Discharge and lose entitlement to the Post-9/11 GI Bill and other benefits.<br><br>The Army does not need these types of people around and the VA surely does not need these types of people sucking money and benefits for years to come.

Response by 1SG Shane Hansen made Mar 13 at 2014 11:12 AM

1SG Shane Hansen — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 11:12:48 -0400

The military is not for everyone, some find out too late.  I thank them for their service and send them on their way.  <div>No reason to ruin the rest of their lives possibly by giving them anything other than an honorable discharge.</div><div>I do however wish there was an expedited process for getting them out.  One with less paperwork and less legal review.</div>

Response by CSM Mike Maynard made Apr 5 at 2014 7:07 PM

CSM Mike Maynard — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 19:07:23 -0400

PFC Bergstrom - great question as there is no black/white requirement in the regulation. It's these types of discussions that allows everyone to see this from a different point of view and to possibly give them more things to consider when faced with situations like this.<div><br></div><div>A lot of folks on here have given some great insight into this - some think that the Army is hard and not for everyone and maybe there are some that can't meet the standard because of physical/genetic capabilities. On the other hand, there are those that think since you met the standard in basic/AIT, then you should be able to meet the standard utilizing your own discipline, so a failure to meet APFT/ABCP is a failure in discipline/duty.</div><div><br></div><div>I think we have to consider their whole service and if they contribute in other ways - job performance, volunteering, etc. If it seems that the APFT/ABCP is an isolated failure and they have done their best to try and meet the standard, then they probably deserve an Honorable. If they quit or their APFT/ABCP failure is indicative of the rest of their performance, then they probably deserve a General Under Honorable.</div><div><br></div><div>Bottom-line, we have to preserve that Honorable Characterization for those that deserve it - wouldn't seem fair for someone who quits to get the same benefits as someone who does their time honorably. </div>

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Apr 5 at 2014 8:05 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 20:05:48 -0400

Don't know what happened afterwards "The Rest of the Story". I only know my Part. CTA3 (Frocked so more like a CTASN wearing a CTA3 Uniform) Was gundecking (Falsifying PT Records, He couldn't pass). He was working at Naval Research Lab an Affiliate of Commander Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command. I was Master at Arms to Chief of Staff. He was Admirals Masted (Article 15). Admiral bumped him down two to CTASA stripped him of his Rate (MOS) "I don't need any non-rates we are a technical staff" gave him orders to a Carrier as an undesignated Seaman Apprentice Deckhand.

Response by PO2 Victor Taylor made Apr 8 at 2014 1:04 AM

PO2 Victor Taylor — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 01:04:32 -0400

Let me say this. I was one of the one that go the boot due not being in weight standards or Body Fat percent. I got out of the Navy with 7 year 8 months in. I was given an RE-3T rating on my discharge which meant I could have come back if I got within standards. The reason I got out was the day a First Class that volunteered to be a incharge of the mando commandos called us a bunch of lazy, unhealthy pieces of shit, this was after months of being belittled and shit on by this guy. Background I was in better shape than him, I was working out 8 to 10 times a week running 3 to 5 miles every other day and lifting weights the other days. The only reason he volunteered was he was trying to get bullets for his evals to become an E-7. I turned to him and cussed him out up one side and down the other, my senior chief walked in as I was finishing chew on him like bad chew toy and my Senior said I can't do that. I explained to him what was going on and officially told my Senior to start processing me out. I was in standards the day this happened a week later I did not make weight or BFM, because of this incident, fought hard to get in shape stay in shape only to have in ruined by some piss ant that was willing to step on anyone throat to better himself rank wise. I for one would like to see anyone get a dishonorable discharge and if anyone thinks and they don't know what it is like or they cannot figure out why someone cannot pass, then you cannot have an opinion because you have never been there.

Response by SPC Demetrius Anderson made Jun 12 at 2014 12:24 PM

SPC Demetrius Anderson — Thu, 12 Jun 2014 12:24:24 -0400

yep i used that way out back in 2010 when they first started doing it. (fort polk)

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2015 8:50 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 08:50:53 -0400

I am currently in the process of chaptering one of my soldeirs for a pt failure. He has met the standard in all other areas with the exception of pt. while I do not think it would be beneficial to keep him in I certainly do not think that he has.warranted a Black mark on his record for civilian life. that would be more in line for those individuals chaptered for failures of character such as the sharp cases and the drug test failures.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 23 at 2015 1:10 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 13:10:38 -0400

It broke heart when a young PFC in the same office was chaptered out for APFT failure. He had a get it done attitude and never balked when given tasks. He just could not pass the run despite being thin and going through remedial PT. I truly felt that we lost more than we gained by chaptering him out, but we must enforce standards.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2015 8:05 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 May 2015 08:05:01 -0400

For those who are unit commanders what other actions are associated with that failure for a soldier to get a less than honorable discharge for PT failure?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2015 1:47 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 May 2015 13:47:05 -0400

I feel it's the same thing as getting out on not having a Family Care Plan in place. That's an Honorable as well. In both cases, the Army says, "Thanks for playing. Better luck at your next gig." Some service members fail APFT on purpose when they realize the Army is not for them. Some soldiers say their FCP fell apart and now their person will no longer care for their child if deployed. Or the long term plan is good, but they have no short term plan. I'm with the powers that be on this, "Thanks for trying." No issues with the Honorable.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2015 2:49 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 May 2015 14:49:21 -0400

My buddy and I were discussing this yesterday. I do not see it fair that others can squeeze by while holding permanent profiles. Its not right

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2015 10:56 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Jun 2015 22:56:01 -0400

In my unit they give "general under honorable", imo, it should be an honorable discharge, since fat people get an honorable discharge for not meeting weight standards, and that's army wide.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2015 1:09 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:09:17 -0400

I've seen some abuse this on the Air Force side as well, to include one faking a bad back and being busted acting normally off base and still nothing happening. This especially annoyed me as I do have something of a bad back and I was still out there doing what I needed to do. I've been fighting to get off profile, and doing so I've been able to see more who are fighting to get on it/use it to get out.

Due to all this, personally, I think if you make it into the military through Basic and initial training (Tech School, MOS training, whichever it might be) then you've proven you can meet requirements. If you legitimately can't eventually due to age, injury, etc. there' are typically profiles that will allow you to continue and stay in to get out honorably.

So based on those views if someone is separated due to PT failures I don't believe they should get an Honorable Discharge. They are likely either doing it intentionally to get out or just aren't putting forth the effort. *Disclaimer: I don't know the specifics for other branches so there could be some exceptions.* I believe these folks should receive a General Discharge, which isn't negative but indicates they did not meet all requirements/expectations (as is exactly the case for this topic). Plus I believe these may be upgradeable to an Honorable Discharge, so if they can prove they did actually do their best and it was out of their control they could still apply to regain the Honorable Discharge.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Jun 11 at 2015 11:10 PM

SGT Dave Tracy — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 23:10:22 -0400

Whoa, pump the brakes kid (I love that phrase). PT tests as "the line in the sand"? What about "300+ PT Studs" who otherwise suck at soldiering? Are we putting proper emphasis where it really belongs here?

But I digress.

Most who fail, and do so chronically, have themselves to blame, yes, but not all have "let themselves go". I know more than a few grunts who spent 20+ years beating themselves up in the Army or had injuries stateside or in combat who consequently struggle to or can no longer pass the PT test. Generally they had to wait out a med board or wait out their contract-whichever came 1st.

When you are young, healthy and uninjured, it’s real easy to pass judgment on everyone else who can't meet the standards you do. Be careful with that. Ever since I had foot surgery for an injury I got TDY at Aberdeen Proving Ground (Best TDY EVER!! Had to say it.), my runs have never come back to where they once were. Being that I'm now a Reservist and don't PT every day--and 42 years old--doesn't make it any easier, but I manage; in fact I passed my PT test last month thank you very much!

Better example: One guy in my old unit was a designated shit bag because he couldn't pass the PT test anymore...never mind he did some super-hooah shit in Iraq that he was recognized for. Still, that was then and only now matters in some people's eyes. He could have saved the fucking world from the Death Star, a reincarnated Adolf Hitler and Chuck Norris's long-lost evil twin brother barehanded all while singing the Army Song and nursing motherless kittens, and it would not mean ONE DAMN THING if he didn't pass a PT test. His service to his country and the Army FAR exceeded mine, but only because I could barely pass a PT test (failed a diagnostic once) whereas he couldn't, should his discharge really be anything other than honorable? Really?!

Are there PT test malingerers trying to get out early? Sure, but I don't believe I've known any either Active or Reserve side. Considering how long I've seen it take the Army to get rid of people who REALLY screw up, I'd think it would just be faster to ride out the contract!

I do agree there has to be standards. All I'm saying is PT tests as THE standard for keeping soldiers and/or the type of discharge they receive is not a wise blanket policy.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2015 1:42 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 01:42:13 -0400

in my experience (12 years) pt failures for the most part are a failure of leadership and not only of the soldier. many times the remedial pt programs are not followed as religiously as the fm calls for and that soldiers NCO doesn't always go with I would advocate if a solider is realistically trying to improve and fails out then yes an honor able discharge is warranted. now if the soldier tanks deliberatly.... something less is warranted

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2015 11:52 AM

PVT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2015 11:52:18 -0400

I am in AIT as of right now I failed my first pt test by 5 push ups. But I also hurt my knee in the process and have been on profile I won't get to take another pt test. So is it fair for me to get anything other than an honorable discharge?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2015 11:59 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2015 11:59:12 -0400

I wish there was a sort of specialized discharge for the people who found out that the military was just too much for them, or the unmotivated.

Say, for every month left on your enlistment, you have to spend six weeks (a month and a half) doing some sort of civilian service. Parks & Recreation, helping in a health care or retirement facility, helping at a school (not a teacher but like a go-fer for a teacher or a janitor), a county animal shelter, something like that.

A sort of "Ease-out Discharge" connected to a general "Inability to Adapt to Military Life" discharge. If they finish out their requisite civilian service, the General Discharge becomes an Honorable and everyone parts ways happy.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2015 9:32 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2015 21:32:11 -0400

Did they serve honorably? That's what matters. Thank them serving and send them on their way.

Response by Fiatuiga AhFook made Nov 20 at 2015 12:20 AM

Fiatuiga AhFook — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 00:20:21 -0500

Some soldiers DO NOT use Pt failure to get out of the Army. They just couldnt pass it no matter how hard they try. However, it is true that the army is not for everyone. Soldiers who choose pt failure to get out of the Army see it as a fast way to get out, less papers. Instead of going to the commanders office and admit he/she doesn't want to be in the Army because that's a textbook of papers right there. The more papers the longer they'll have to wait. It's easy to get in but it's harder to get out. Hooah!

Response by PFC Alexander Oliveira made Jan 13 at 2016 6:19 PM

PFC Alexander Oliveira — Wed, 13 Jan 2016 18:19:46 -0500

i was honorably discharged as a pt failure, I had shin splints, a douche PT stud PSG and I was the worst kinda person in his eyes. even though I tried as hard as I could. after a lengthy profile and all the bullshit I was discharged. the bright side was that I was very good at my MOS 25B. now I work as a civilian contractor and the military definitely helped me with what I do for a living. I think the whole deal of who gets what kind of discharge should be left up to the leadership on a soldier to soldier basis. I didn't want to get out, I was a good soldier but could do anything about it. so I got an honorable. on the other hand the kid that got caught 5 separate times drinking underage almost got a less than honorable. they tried to stick me with one and I had to voice my opinion on it and was allowed to present my case to my 1SG. I guess what im trying to say is honestly, your discharge doesn't mean shit. at no point in the entirety of me being out has any employer asked for my DD214 or even what discharge I got. they make it seem like the end of the world if you get anything besides honorable. you should only be worried about a dishonorable. but you have to do something bergdahl status to get one of those

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2016 3:20 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 15:20:56 -0500

If you fail te PFT/PRT you should not get an honorable discharge. If you had medical problems they should have been properly documented allowing you to perform a partial. If it's bad enough you should be medically separated or retired.

Response by PFC Sarah DeKoning made Jan 23 at 2016 3:32 PM

PFC Sarah DeKoning — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 15:32:10 -0500

Uh my unit was discharging PT failures the same time I was getting out and they were not honorable discharges. So this is news to me

Response by CSM William Payne made Jan 23 at 2016 4:09 PM

CSM William Payne — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 16:09:03 -0500

There are many reasons why service members can't pass their respective service pt test, not all are due to just plain laziness or being undisciplined. Most young people today did not grow up doing the hard work of farming, spending all of their days outside, walking or riding a bike everywhere they go, spending afternoons and weekends outside playing pickup games and participating in recess and mandatory gym classes in school. Their bodies breakdown faster, especially under the stress of deployment. And it's only going to get worse under the guise of providing everyone opportunity to do everything. A lot of these young people are going to have physical issues to deal with for the rest of their lives. There have been and always will be those that try to get over it game the system. We can't punish everyone for the poor performers.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2016 4:12 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 16:12:24 -0500

There are some sour ass comments in this thread.

Response by SSG Samuel Sohm made Jan 23 at 2016 4:13 PM

SSG Samuel Sohm — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 16:13:19 -0500

IMO, it depends on the situation. The lowest I would probably go (speaking as a guy who doesn't issue discharges and honestly doesn't think he should) is general under honorable.

I am a big fan of case-by-case consideration for things. We give commanders the authority to adjudicate these matters and rightfully so but the people who know him will know if he deserves a honorable or lower.

Response by SGT Chris Hill made Jan 23 at 2016 4:52 PM

SGT Chris Hill — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 16:52:31 -0500

No, I do not agree. Provided they served honorably and did not go AWOL or commit some major offense. Failing a pt test or ht/wt is not dishonorable, thats why it's not covered under UCMJ. To even consider giving someone anything less than honorable for APFT/HT/WT failure is completely unnecessary. Even if they're doing so just go get out of the army, so be it, let them out. The army isn't meant for everyone, some join and quickly realize that they do not want to stay in and want out ASAP, and before they started allowing soldiers to volunteer out, failing an apft or ht/wt was the safest way to avoid UCMJ. It's far better than soldiers doing drugs to get out. Don't ruin someones future due to them being overweight or unable to meet apft standards, it's not that serious.

Response by MSgt Rob Miller made Jan 23 at 2016 4:55 PM

MSgt Rob Miller — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 16:55:11 -0500

My shoulders are completely shot and were for the last 8 years of my career. I never used that to get out of anything. Some do have severe problems that prevent them from being able to PR, but there sure seem to be a few trying to come up with excuses.

Response by MSgt John Taylor made Jan 23 at 2016 5:12 PM

MSgt John Taylor — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 17:12:09 -0500

There's a huge difference between dishonor to the service and not meeting a standard.

Response by PFC Pamala (Hall) Foster made Jan 23 at 2016 5:31 PM

PFC Pamala (Hall) Foster — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 17:31:24 -0500

PT and Soldering skills are mentored by LEADERSHIP. And leadership can and sometimes DO set up SM's for failure. I saw it happen on MORE than 1 occassion to excellent soldiers and shitbags alike. I failed 1 PT test cause I took it with a busted back, but CSM didn't count it-HE KNEW what happened cause my Platoon SGT told him what happened and they saw i was trying. PT tests are a part of it, but conduct, skills and PT make up the picture-so everyone has a job and if a SM can no longer do thier tasks, maybe reclass is needed, AND mentor that SM before tossing them out. A good commander/NCO aids their SM's NOT tear them down and destroy them.

Response by Sgt William Themann made Jan 23 at 2016 6:14 PM

Sgt William Themann — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:14:12 -0500

I always thought it was "Other than Honorable". I have no problem with them separating cause we don't want them there to begin with if they really are not all in. Still gonna see it on the DD 214. Too short a time period.

Response by CW2 Carl Swanson made Jan 23 at 2016 6:42 PM

CW2 Carl Swanson — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:42:25 -0500

I always thought that PT failures were a General Discharge/Chapter. I never heard of one getting an Honorable Discharge.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2016 7:22 PM

CAPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 19:22:14 -0500

I've been trying to get out of the Navy for 26 years.

Response by PO1 Pete Sikes made Jan 23 at 2016 9:33 PM

PO1 Pete Sikes — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 21:33:52 -0500

Which part of the UCMJ did they violate and get convicted of that they need something other than a fully Honorable discharge?

Response by SGT Eric LaPrarie made Jan 23 at 2016 10:39 PM

SGT Eric LaPrarie — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 22:39:46 -0500

im trying to stay in i have always been an 80%er on my pt for over 10 years, deployed and stuggled with a back injury, but im still trying often i just make min standards and sometimes i just fall short, but i will not give up and im fighting them every way i can on the medical discharge side. But it is Hurting me on the Cariere side of things.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2016 12:04 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 00:04:17 -0500

If someone does not want to be in the military, I would not want them in my unit, and think they should be discharged. I have no problem with an honorable discharge for failing at PT.

Response by SPC David Prentice made Jan 24 at 2016 12:11 AM

SPC David Prentice — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 00:11:59 -0500

Honorable discharge for PT failures is 100% acceptable even if they fail on purpose. If they did it on purpose like everyone said then that soldier wants out. When I was in as far as I could tell that was the quickest way out without screwing your entire life over. However I did remember a sign at transition that had a priority level for "Voluntary Discharges" so I guess you can find other ways.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2016 10:54 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 10:54:33 -0500

I think there are a lot of different factors that must be weighed when determining what type of discharge to give someone, or whether to discharge someone at all. If someone has clearly stopped trying to improve themselves and is failing in order to get out, give them a general discharge. Maybe send them to gate guard for 6-12 months first. However, at the same time, leadership must also recognize that there are people who just can't do it. For whatever reason, be it injury, not having a chance to PT for months prior to a test, a genetic predisposition for a weak upper body (this is a real problem some soldiers have), or a body that refuses to shed weight; these people deserve a discharge that shows that they tried. To me that means Honorable.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2016 12:25 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 12:25:38 -0500

This is a great discussion, it is one for not only the leaders but every to help understand. I agree if a soldier can not maintain the Army standards and is chapter because they can't why should they receive an honorable discharge. But on the other side of the discussion is was the reason the failed because of a medical reason that they refused to get seen by... So this opens another discussion cause I have seen this in my unit now, if a soldier brand new to the army who fails these standards recieve an honorable discharge? And should the army raise the standard to pass basic training?

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2016 5:13 PM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 17:13:15 -0500

I think they should get a general discharge under honorable conditions

Response by SPC Christopher Shanahan made Jan 24 at 2016 8:30 PM

SPC Christopher Shanahan — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 20:30:51 -0500

The whole honorable, less than honorable, under honorable conditions, and dishonorable really need a long looking at. Here's why: when I was in S2 we unfortunate had to take care of all the derogatory reporting for the unit. I saw people with drug charges get an honorable discharge. It all ultimately comes down to the commander of the CG if they did something really bad. In saying all that I think if someone fails a PT test and it can be proven that they did so with malicious intent, I would agree with a less than honorable discharge. But I never see that happening in today's Army or military.

Response by SSgt Kevin Pittman made Jan 25 at 2016 12:12 PM

SSgt Kevin Pittman — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:12:22 -0500

I a general discharge with no Benicia unless there is a injury. During my out processing I was disgusted that two members were being honorably discharged for failing physical standards. And giving separation pay because the military felt it was their fault , that these fat bodies couldn't perform.

Response by SSG Ray Petersen made Jan 25 at 2016 3:46 PM

SSG Ray Petersen — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 15:46:44 -0500

Way I see it, as a leader, if I had someone who was a hard worker, did the right thing all the time and just wasn't good at PT and had to be discharged I would give them honorable. I have seen some soldiers use it as a scapegoat to get out, but I have also seen ones who were really trying to get better at PT.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jan 25 at 2016 7:01 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 19:01:09 -0500

I was an Assistant S-4 and we had a young PFC in the shop. His attitude, mission completion, and trust were all 10s. He just could not run and was chaptered with an honorable as he should have been. I loved the kid and hoped for the best for him.

Response by Sgt Chuck Stewart made Jan 25 at 2016 7:33 PM

Sgt Chuck Stewart — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 19:33:24 -0500

First I did not know that you could get discharged for failing a PT test. If the soldier looks physically fit but failed the test they should be examined by a doctor after the exam if it's proven that nothing is wrong with them they should be put on a fitness program not discharged. The next thing you know we will be wiping their nose when they're crying in boot camp. Man up already

Response by SGT Kenneth Connelly made Jan 25 at 2016 8:00 PM

SGT Kenneth Connelly — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 20:00:20 -0500

The military isn't for everyone. As an educator in high school and a Veteran, I agree with the recruiters (that stop by our campus), that the current generation is terribly not in shape or ready for basic. However, they signed on the dotted line like we did once. They may not make it but we still should give them the discharge they deserve. If they're using the system...bust them...hang em high. But we need to remember that the ones who try but can't make it still have offered up their lives for a greater cause. The real issue is schools not forcing PT standards that were once higher. My daughter has chosen to serve. She's waiting for her contract now. In the meantime she's asked me to help her get in better shape. She asked because I know what's going to happen once she is there. However, for those kids who don't come from families of athletes, military families or just physically active families, those kids still deserve the respect for trying. Are they a full fledged vet when they can't make basic training pt? HELL NO! But giving them a less than honorable discharge is BS.

Response by LCpl Arrick Moore made Jan 25 at 2016 8:30 PM

LCpl Arrick Moore — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 20:30:44 -0500

I am torn between a Yes, and a No regarding PT failures...

Unfortunately, there are those in the forces who HAVE legitimate excuses for failing a PT test... and repeatedly.... I actually failed PT tests for 2 of the 4 years I was in the Marine Corps, and not because of obesity, every time they did a PFT, I was either injured with a bad knee, or recovering from pneumonia, or some other ordeal that about killed me... and absolutely could not run to save my life...

This resulted in immediate failure of the PFT, because a partial PFT is NOT a PFT..., and non-rec for promotion... never once was I offered a discharge for not being able to complete a PFT... it took breaking my back severely to be offered a discharge...

Response by PV2 Bill Grunden made Jan 25 at 2016 8:32 PM

PV2 Bill Grunden — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 20:32:42 -0500

I think their enlistment should be annulled like a marriage that wasn't meant to be. No benefit, no liability.

Response by SPC Jonathan Scott made Jan 25 at 2016 8:40 PM

SPC Jonathan Scott — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 20:40:01 -0500

I was medical discharged but before I was super soldier nobody new my mos better then me scored 250 to 300 on pt tests then I got sick with chronic pancreatitis. Was told I was going to to die at age 20 I made e4 in 18 months. Returned to my unit and everyone shit on me till they needed my expertise in computers or fixing the radio or servers. Yet folks who could not tell one end of fiber cable to rj45 cable to what radio antenna started getting promoted while I was on profile I started questioning he army. I mean I spent time out of ait with special forces, marines supporting them everyone in my unit came to me or moved sight to sight to fix and get equipment up and running even while on profile. All my 1st and captain cared about was when I was getting off profile and pass pt test and go to air assault school. 6 months in ICU no phone call no visit from anyone in my chain especially after my comman sergeant major and colonel came to the hospital not to visit but to ask the doctor if I was fakining when I was yellow as lemon with my pancreas hanging out my side with 6 IV's and 2 central lines and my stomach being pumped. My military Dr told them they needed to get all my paperwork ready as I was going to die but if you think he faking gonin the room and look at him they took one step in I said you really think I am faking get the f out here before I beat you with my catherter bag and through all this pancreas fluid being pumped out of my body. 6 months return to my unit with 9 months convalescent leave and 9 months after that of rehab mind you went into hospital 205 pounds ripped came back to unit 90 pounds can count all my bones. Only thing said to me was you know you have been killing us on our stats for air assault and pt when will you be back to being soldier. Keep in mind my perment profile for the next year was 4 hour work day nothing more then lifting a phone. They tried to make my four day go from 6am to 12pm until my dr called command and said if you want him theirbat 6 am he better be done at 10am tried to say 90 minutes after pt did not count and also pt did not count because all I did was go to orderly room sit at the phone for an hour. Seriously when folks started calling me profile bitch but could not correctly splice fiber or rig up servers and other mod ewuipemnt as 31 romeo or 31 fox or any of 31 Sierra stuff that I knew. I even laughed my ass off when my own platoon sergeant and first sergeant did not even know how to run an old but new price of equipment that came to the unit the troposhoere equipment. After this I I started acting dumb even though while working in the ordely room I started going through the unit records and notice I had the highest asvab score and the highest gt scores also especially I found my e-5 promotion orders but sigend denied till after hospital stay. Was e-4 promotable for over a year after hospital stay but then was denied for profile. Then same dumb ass command made me first sgt driver and actually said spc Scott all my nco and other soldiers say you are super soldier if only he had his health but I do not buy it I am making you my driver to make your life miserable until your medical discharge. Basically my first 3 years was all good myblast year before discharge was misery. Sad thing was my medical discharge came before a deployment that's when command did not want to let me go. The two sad parts to my story when I joined wanted to do 20 plus years after injury could not wait to leave to get away from folks I may have had to stay away from in Iraq and Afghanistan because they would of got soldiers killed duento their stupidity. It just their always more to soldiers wanting out through pt discharge. Hell if I would of new I could got out with honorable would of buried profile and failed twice. My only other advice is make sure every injury is documented in medical file and make at least 10 certified copies. Why because as I am 100% disabled veteran but if you are injured like me and a shoe in it will disappear. I also think that is why my command was upset about my medical profile and discharge new I serve 4 years and get better pay as disabled then them doing 20 plus years and it tax free. Also since I was able to work when I got out my SSDI and va disability is better then basically captains and below retirement pay and it all tax free.

Response by SMSgt William Hassiepen made Jan 25 at 2016 8:42 PM

SMSgt William Hassiepen — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 20:42:29 -0500

I think it depends, were it an actual injury that causes the failure and there is documentation then an honorable discharge should be permitted. However if the person is "faking" and caught, he should be courts marshaled for dereliction of duty and dishonorably discharged.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2016 9:07 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 21:07:37 -0500

If they want out let them out or they will turn into a POS for the rest of their tour.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2016 9:29 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 21:29:51 -0500

I don' t see a problem with it. If they don't want to be in and this is the fastest way, then so be it. Better then them bugging the doc and medics until theu get useless surgeries and a stacked fake med record and now they are on disability getting paid for being fat and the army not working out for them.

Response by 1LT Lydia Hales made Jan 25 at 2016 10:11 PM

1LT Lydia Hales — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 22:11:16 -0500

I agree with discharge. But it shouldn't result in an OTH. Some people make mistakes and join when it's just not for them. As long as there are no other issues that would indicate behavioral issues, let them go with an honorable. Tag them with a low RE code.

Response by PO3 Dr. Todd Marquez, PT, DPT, MA made Jan 25 at 2016 10:23 PM

PO3 Dr. Todd Marquez, PT, DPT, MA — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 22:23:05 -0500

Other than honorable should suffice. They should lose all benefits related to service unless there was a medical reason prompting the weight gain (and/or PT failure). This is no different than pregnancy separations (If men cannot separate then women should not be able to. Paternal bonding is also important).

Response by PO2 Harlan Jones made Jan 25 at 2016 10:47 PM

PO2 Harlan Jones — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 22:47:03 -0500

Sure! Let's hold them to a higher standard not allowing any room for life, things that happen along the way or physical issues! Not acceptable. I ran and passed many PFT's but I can tell you I always struggled. Not once did I not try though. Those who lead by fear ultimately succumb to it. Increase the threat by giving those who would fail OTH Discharges and you would condemning everything teamwork stands for regardless of Branch of Service and Time served. That line of illogical thinking would truly be threatening the mission. You'll have a whole group full of people who are afraid to eat, sleep or even Walk the same way thinking Uncle Sam will toss them and their families out on their ears with no Benefits. Unsat. Record their progress, but also record their improvements and them reward accordingly.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2016 10:53 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 22:53:06 -0500

We have to look at what a dishonorable discharge does to a person life on the outside of the military. Is it fair that a person is denied a job on the outside because they failed a pt test on the inside? I don't think it's that serious. I also don't agree that they should be able to use failing a pt test as a way to get out the military, but more research has to be done to sort those few out.

Response by CPL Ford Rhodes made Jan 25 at 2016 11:35 PM

CPL Ford Rhodes — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 23:35:25 -0500

In all fairness, if soldiers aren't offered a chance to improve physically, who is at fault? If you are getting off at 8 or 9, have to be up at 0500 and your diet consists of what you can cook in your room, you are probably not going to see improvement.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2016 11:42 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 23:42:02 -0500

I have never seen anyone try to get chaptered out for that, then again the Reserves is not trying to shrink so I did not see any booted for it.

Response by MSgt Christopher Schoen made Jan 26 at 2016 10:02 AM

MSgt Christopher Schoen — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 10:02:30 -0500

Reading through all these responses...I think most are forgetting something. If "they" like you...they will keep you. If they don't...yer toast. It happens at all levels. Also the PT program has been used as a force shaper. I have seen some excellent fat boys do some incredible work. Been retired for years now...but, still jump on here once in a while.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2016 12:15 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 12:15:33 -0500

I think some soldiers may well be using it to get out of the army, I think 'how did they get past basic? I passed my PT test ON THE LAST DAY...but I passed it, I ended up getting a waiver or whatever you call it where I walked for my PT test but still did the push ups and sit ups. BUT I STILL DID THEM...perhaps if these people really did/do not want to be enlisted, then perhaps they can get out on a kind of hardship thing...sometimes one gets into something and then they realize, hey, this is not for me....

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2016 3:49 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:49:09 -0500

I think it depends on the circumstances.

Response by SP5 Wayne Robeson made Jan 26 at 2016 3:58 PM

SP5 Wayne Robeson — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:58:44 -0500

Remedial PT until they pass. No pain no gain :)

Response by MSgt Barney Lee made Jan 26 at 2016 4:18 PM

MSgt Barney Lee — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:18:49 -0500

I spent 32 years in uniform. By the time I retired I could barely walk the 3 miles due to injuries sustained while on duty.

Response by CPT David McRaney made Jan 26 at 2016 4:37 PM

CPT David McRaney — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:37:38 -0500

The day they stop deploying broken soldiers to a war zone, or deny broken soldiers from volunteering to go to the sand box, then we can look at this question.

Response by SPC Nathan Acreman made Jan 26 at 2016 4:49 PM

SPC Nathan Acreman — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:49:16 -0500

I decided to weigh in on this too. I am a veteran who was chartered out of the army after 10 yrs for failing my weight. I could come up with a million reasons why I failed and some will buy it and some will not. The truth is as I got older weight just became harder and harder to keep off. I could benge diet and lose a lot in a short amount of time, but I think I just got tired of the struggle. Though PT wasn't my problem I saw a bunch of people who it was. I watched and tried to help quite a few to improve but ultimately not fast enough for the Army. I wonder how many of them just gave up on the struggle?

I think all circumstances should be kept in mind.

Response by SPC Michael Turner made Jan 26 at 2016 5:27 PM

SPC Michael Turner — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 17:27:18 -0500

If they fail they fail. If they want out let them out.

Response by Capt Jesse Tours made Jan 26 at 2016 5:45 PM

Capt Jesse Tours — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 17:45:33 -0500

Thankfully there is very little of this in the Marine Corps, at least when I was in ('96 to 2000). Among officers and NCOs? Forget about it. You must be an example of ongoing fitness, commensurate with your age of course. Junior enlisted men and women will get immediate attention for letting themselves get weak and/or sloppy (infantry And support units just as much). You can't hump even a relatively short monthly conditioning hike in full gear and be a slob. Nor can anyone count on you to do a combat carry if you're weak and over weight. I was a Motor-T officer (back when they still had the MOS). I PTd my platoons hard, 3 to 6 miles regularly/weekly, pyramids of push-ups, pull ups sit-ups. Other days we mixed it up with soccer or combat soccer, which is soccer with prison rules. Or king of the mud pit, or series of relay races. Stayed away from football (too much stopping). Baseball if it was time to just totally time to chill. Marines loved basketball too (which I Suck at, but I at least could play disruptive defense). A lot of good athletes in the general FMF, let alone the studs. Light duty/medical issues we're legit. Only in a very very few cases did I see malingering or slovenly upkeep, which everyone quickly sniffs out. Again, my military experience was as a Marine Officer. Low PT standards and tolerance are foreign to me, as they would be to any of my Marines. The concept/image is just Daggone Nasty! God Bless the United States Marines.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2016 6:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 18:18:07 -0500

I agree, but what I hate to point out is that a Soldiers failure to complete APFT standards is a leadership failure in terms of mentorship. Regardless of what anyone says, PT is a leadership function. If not, there would be no point in organized PT. If its a motivational again... where is the soldiers mentor. Why isn't the team/squad leader taking that soldier out after duty hours and training that Soldier 1 on 1? PT has never been my strongest suit, but the only other excuse is medical, in which case, go heal up, recondition, and pass the thing.

When a soldier graduates AIT, they have passed the standard 3 event APFT. If they fail after that, something is not going as it should with the units leaders... typically the first line leader.

Response by SGT Ben Bearden made Jan 26 at 2016 7:16 PM

SGT Ben Bearden — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:16:02 -0500

I agree that many soldiers use it as an excuse. if you can't maintain the standard then it is time to organize your priorities to reflect what you want to do with your life. if they signed on the dotted line and swore an oath knowing that of many possibilities they would have to be physically active they have only themselves to blame.

I know a lot will hate it but the old standard "they volunteered" is in full effect here. what halfwit doesn't know that they will be required to engage in physical training? if a recruiter is so good as to convince someone that any branch of the military will be all ice cream and hookers, give that person a trophy!

I have seen many soldiers return missing limbs and still manage to maintain or exceed the standard, is it really too much to ask to toe the line?

Response by SrA Monica Hartis made Jan 26 at 2016 7:43 PM

SrA Monica Hartis — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:43:09 -0500

It's hard to depict with a question that is not very descriptive. Some fail because they do have medical problems and didn't know it at the time until they finally sought help. It depends really. Now, clearly, if you were to catch someone like the example used abusing their "illness" that's a whole other ball game. Otherwise, I say send them on their way.

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2016 9:12 PM

PVT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 21:12:01 -0500

I was discharged for pt failure, but not because I wanted to go home. Because I didn't. Every day after duty hours I went to the gym on base and busted my ass for hours. I ate all healthy foods and drank bottle after bottle of water and still couldn't pass. It breaks my heart that I was discharged. I would do anything to have been able to pass. Not all of us are shit bags. My SSG's treated me so horribly because of it and sometimes they made me want to kill myself. They couldn't see how hard I really was trying. Still to this day the things they used to say really bother me.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2016 9:40 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 21:40:09 -0500

I do believe they should get honorable discharge. Let's save the dis- honorable discharges for the DUI and other criminal acts for those Soldiers

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2016 9:42 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 21:42:08 -0500

Honestly, I see no problem in an honorable discharge for PT failure if someone has served honorably. Obviously there will always be someone trying to game the system, but if it's not here, it'll just be somewhere else. I served for 8 years, and enlisted at 18 after years of track, baseball, and martial arts, and still had trouble with my APFT because I've always had weak abdominal muscles and could barely pass the sit-up portion (if at all), and I was actually underweight for a good part of my enlistment. Even so, I soldiered with the best of them and although I couldn't receive many favorable actions, such as promotions, my command still let me serve without hassle other than remedial PT. With the current cuts in personnel taking place, I'd say if they're unnecessary but serving honorably, cut their orders and send them home without ruining the rest of their lives

Response by PO1 Kyle Gaffney made Jan 26 at 2016 10:40 PM

PO1 Kyle Gaffney — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 22:40:45 -0500

Some work their @$$ off trying to pass some people are not built to be the poster boy for uniform adds but are great at their job. I spent my last 5 years starving and running the beach. I never failed but the tape measure was always my worst event. I was great at what I did but not as pretty as others no matter how much I ran. I had sailors fail that where awesome mechanics, not because they did not try.
Today I am a distributor of several all natural products that would have made my life so much easier and healthier. I wish i could get them in the hands of every service member that is trying with little or no results.
If you are not looking for a scapegoat and are beating your self up I can help you out.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2016 12:20 AM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 Jan 2016 00:20:05 -0500

I think you are mis guided in thinking its an honorable discharge. The type of discharge you get from pt failure is an administrative discharge. It's not honorable or dishonorable.

Response by SPC Stacey Lowell made Jan 27 at 2016 3:44 PM

SPC Stacey Lowell — Wed, 27 Jan 2016 15:44:23 -0500

It is quite sad and unfortunate to hear about airmen and soldiers whining because PT is hard or that they have over eaten and put on too much weight. It is a sad fact that these things do occur, much like getting surgery done to get out of TDY assignments. If I could, I would be back in now pushups, pullups and the like. My specialty was the two mile pt run. Back in my day in the service we reached out to the local community and took part in city wide marathons such as the Berlin Marathon I did in 1987. But to purposely fail a PT Test is just inexcusable. And by the way I have seen troops get general discharges because of PT Failure or a piss poor attitude towards keeping fit and doing what's right to keep the unit cohesive and combat ready....

Response by SPC James Dollins made Jan 27 at 2016 8:01 PM

SPC James Dollins — Wed, 27 Jan 2016 20:01:16 -0500

Some I'm sure do. It's pathetic! Some of them are lazy & need to go, but those are the ones they usual keep. While they want to boot the ones that have issues w/ PT, and are workers.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2016 8:15 PM

LCpl Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 Jan 2016 20:15:40 -0500

I felt the need to comment as this situation came about in my own life. I went reserves to pursue college at the behest of my parents. (who were both Marines, including my father who was an 06.) I had a lot of physical challenges growing up, including on leg shorter than the other, and being bow legged and pidgeon toed to the point i had to cross my legs as a child to get my pants off. Needless to say, this didnt make running easy. It made it extremely painful. I mananged to loose 150 pounds in 6 months and joined right out of high school. As I learned, the best laid plans dont always work out and I had to forego college in place of a full time job in order to pay for living expenses. This was in 08, and the only work I could find was diggin holes fortelephone poles running a 90 lbs jackhammer for 14 hours a day. This only helped to exacerbate an already strained and injured back. Needless to say, it shortly became apparent that passing the 3 mile run portion of the pft was getting to the point of impossible. I was discharged with a general under hinorable and am was not eligable for any gi bill ect. I tried to go active to by ke some time to work out my issues as all I ever wanted to be was a Marine, but my command refused to even entertain the idea. Long story short, its not always the idividual who just wants out, sometimes there are extenuating circumstancs. My general discharge has made it difficult to get a job within the federal government, so I gave up on that too. I can honestly say though, I pushed myself as hard as I could, my body just couldnt keep up with the demands. Sometimes things just dont pan out the way we want or plan.

Response by MSG Chris Williams made Jan 27 at 2016 9:37 PM

MSG Chris Williams — Wed, 27 Jan 2016 21:37:21 -0500

Negative Sergeant. As long as the command doesn't allow him to stay in, he still served honorably. The point is not allowing him to stay in, not punishing them for physical issues. A retired MSG.

Response by PO2 Peter Wells made Jan 27 at 2016 10:58 PM

PO2 Peter Wells — Wed, 27 Jan 2016 22:58:37 -0500

I was put out of the Navy for Bodyfat. I Definitely Didn't Want to Leave. If they called up tomorrow saying they'd take me no matter how big I've gotten I'd be on the next Plane to wherever the Navy needs me.

I Tried so hard to lose weight I gave myself Rabdo Myalisis (sp). Some people can't drop weight and maintain strength on the Military's Time Table. If I was in Weight standards I was to Weak for Push Ups and lacked Endurance for the run. If I was 30lbs Over Weight I could Run and Do Push Ups but couldn't beat the Tape.

It was 8 Years of Yo Yo Dieting and Heartache trying to stay fit for my fellow Sailors. 98th Percentile on all of my Advancement Exams.... Who do you want Treating your Illness and Injuries a Corpsman who barely Passed their Exams but Looks good in Uniform.... Or a Corpsman with Love Handles who can carry you up from the Mainspace to Medical Single handedly and knows every Drug in the crash kit?

Sorry... I take this very personally. I haven't really gotten over the Failure and Rejection.

Response by CPL Guy Grafton made Jan 28 at 2016 10:34 AM

CPL Guy Grafton — Thu, 28 Jan 2016 10:34:23 -0500

It should be a general discharge and not become honorable. I experienced this myself when I failed my PT test during PLDC. Though I'm retired after my 20yrs, and passed my PT test after that every year, I'll still recall that it's the Soldier's personal responsibility to maintain pysical readiness at all times. A dishonorable discharge would seriously impact a soldier after they get out. A general discharge would be sufficient and the reasons noted

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2016 11:16 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:16:55 -0500

I think that, so long as they are proficient in their MOS duties, and have not been a "problem" soldier, then it is acceptable. But if they are an issue soldier, then, no. So in short, it would depend on the circumstances. That being said, if they determine that the day-in, day-out of this lifestyle is simply not for them, and they use the PT failure as a way to terminate that, then it is better that they do so. Because I don't want someone like that cluttering up my Army.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2016 12:47 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Jan 2016 12:47:47 -0500

I want to speak to their NCOs/POs and ask them why their troops/sailprs/airmen are failing.
There will be consequences for not being able to perform. Quit giving lazy asses the easy way out.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2016 3:43 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Jan 2016 15:43:01 -0500

I do not agree that an honorable discharge should be given for multiple or continual PT failures. PT is part of military bearing. If a Soldier, Sailor or Marine wants out of the military, let them. Give them the option of finishing their obligation or let them receive an OTH. Nobody has ever forced someone to join. It's sad because they hold billets that prohibit others that DO want to be in a promotion. Get them out.

Response by TSgt Glendon Swenson made Jan 28 at 2016 4:14 PM

TSgt Glendon Swenson — Thu, 28 Jan 2016 16:14:51 -0500

I think it depends on the soldier and should be up to their unit commander.
I served 12 years 9 months at the time of my discharge. I got out as an E6 with 9 deployments and several TDYs. Was only late 3 times my entire career, never missed an appointment, and only missed work for approved leave or emergency surgery. I Had problems with my back and hip flexor for the last 5 years I was in as the result of an injury while deployed. Every time a deployment would come up I would get the doc to pull my profile and push myself through the pt test and deploy. I had senior NCOs and a Dr try to tell me I was malingering and that their was nothing wrong with me. Within a month of my separation the VA had identified the main cause of my hip flexor strain and lower back problems and corrected them. I even thought about re-enlisting since I would now be able to pass the pt test, but after being told I was a "piece if shit who wouldn't try" I have no desire to go back to having to play politics in the military.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2016 9:01 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Jan 2016 21:01:11 -0500

This is all about opinion and how your outlook is on it. We soldiers often get tunnel vision on PT Failures/Non Performers, and label them as S**tbags in our minds. We're all guilty of it.

I always try to keep from thinking that, and instead focus on what could be going on. Maybe just cause it doesn't appear they're trying hard, doesn't mean they aren't giving it there all. I mean after all, they are out there doing it, out of breathe and sweating their ass off. Just some people find out the Army lifestyle isn't for them. It sucks sometimes cause there's a lot of great assets in these people that the military would benefit a lot more from, than the 300 PT Golden Child of the plt/company, who can run fast and knock out push ups but not know when to return fire or how to operate equipment.

Now obviously, If the PT lacking soldier doesn't care then yes, kick him out with nothing to go with him. But for the soldiers who do try but just aren't army material, then I think they deserve a little separation goodies.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2016 9:53 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Jan 2016 21:53:25 -0500

This is a huge problem expecially in the NG, P.T failure that is. As with any job if you could not meet the standards to keep that job you would be fired, only in the military can you keep it because "we need the numbers" game. I have felt that you should enter be able to leave until you pass though far fetched and unrealistic. To the point I think that this is a very good idea, unless for medical reasons it is fiscally impossible for you to pass.

Response by SGT Ronald Bacon made Jan 28 at 2016 10:09 PM

SGT Ronald Bacon — Thu, 28 Jan 2016 22:09:19 -0500

I for lack of a better word I sucked at push ups.. I would rock my 2 mile run and sit-ups but I just could not do push ups. I was well within height weight and being only 5'6" and around 144 lbs. I was not discharged for failing my PT test but I was placed on restrictions and made to feel like I was a failure in the military. If my unit pushed I could have been discharged but I was disciplined and hard working. At the end of my service with the help of my leadership I was able to make my min maybe 1 or 2 more in the push ups. Quick note I never gave up in those 2 minutes I would keep pushing until the whistle sounded shacking and in pain. We need to be a Smart Military as much as a Strong one... If I can perform all my duties and fit the height weight then how much should the PT count for?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2016 10:17 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Jan 2016 22:17:02 -0500

Not unless you're willing to hold weapons qualification to the same standard. I'm much more concerned about having a soldier that can engage and destroy the enemy with accurate fire than one that can sprint two miles in gym shorts.

Response by SrA Benjamin Luzier made Jan 29 at 2016 8:58 AM

SrA Benjamin Luzier — Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:58:14 -0500

I was discharged as a pt failure and I can tell you now it was a very screwed up situation. I had back surgery in '10 and was made to take pt tests (tape only) every 3 weeks. Naturally bring swollen from the operation I never made tape. They demoted me and also forced me to wear all the gear required to perform my job (Security Forces/ MP). My doctors told my command that I was not to be wearing gear and no tape pt tests because of it. Is it fair that I was basically forced out by my leadership due to a medical condition before a medical board was convened? I don't think it is and because u was a above average troop, so I warrant a less than honorable discharge for pt failure?

Response by Tiffany Beck made Jan 29 at 2016 10:29 AM

Tiffany Beck — Fri, 29 Jan 2016 10:29:13 -0500

I'll agree to that. No one likes to do PT or PT tests. My husband has his coming up and he's got Seasonal Asthma. He gets it in the winter (I get it in the summer) and when he runs he feels like his lungs are collapsing and getting tighter and it's harder for him to breath. Does he give up? No. He wants to be the best he can be because he physically wants to be better. Every time. The guys that use (bad knee , bad back , a cold ) excuses to get out of PT tests is totally dishonorable. You have new boots or airman coming in and they watch and see what they can "pick up" for loopholes to get out of taking a PT test or get a passing grade on it. My husband sprained his Acl and MCL in a tour in 2014, he went to Therapy every week twice a week and still had to get a passing grade during a PT test. These new kids that are coming in they don't appreciate the groomed airmen that really take pride in their performance. So for them to dishonor their job and the requirements to obtain their position I agree. It should be dishonorable.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2016 2:47 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Jan 2016 14:47:14 -0500

Do you have evidence of dishonorable behavior? If you catch them committing fraud, then dishonorable discharge. But if the matter is simply that they cannot maintain standards, thank them for their service and send them on their way.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2016 4:24 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Jan 2016 16:24:52 -0500

Why should they get an honorable discharge and a drug test failure not I really don't see any difference both test are in you control to pass and are really just tests of your self discipline

Response by PO3 Terence Dowdell made Jan 30 at 2016 12:37 AM

PO3 Terence Dowdell — Sat, 30 Jan 2016 00:37:22 -0500

While I was in I got a general discharge because i failed my run of the other 3 times in a row.

Response by GySgt Ronald Wasilewski made Jan 31 at 2016 1:22 PM

GySgt Ronald Wasilewski — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 13:22:07 -0500

In the Marine Corps you are put in a
Training program. Sick Bay commandos are not tolerated. Advice would be don't embarrass yourself. Don't join

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2016 4:54 PM

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:54:10 -0500

If you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that they are cheating then yes i agree. But there are those that are truly disabled and hurt after so many years of trying to stay fit for this test that they have no choice but to retire or leave and they should get not only honorable discharge but also a metal for destroying their bodies for this test!!

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2016 12:14 AM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Feb 2016 00:14:25 -0500

The problem I see here is that there are many different measures for physical fitness, and the One that the Air Force chose never made sense to me. Their system seems to favor small, reedy people who move quickly; just the opposite of me. I am big and slow, but I'm also strong and I'll keep going forever. But they don't test that.
Now, I'm not fat, and I looked better in uniform than a lot of the smaller guys who had no trouble, but I don't know how many times I failed because of that damn abdominal measurement (only to work my ass off to pass 6 weeks later.) But the AF doesn't care how tall you are or what your build is. I consider myself lucky to have made it to retirement, but anything less that honorable for that discrepancy would be a travesty.

Response by PFC Jon Singleton made Feb 1 at 2016 10:06 AM

PFC Jon Singleton — Mon, 01 Feb 2016 10:06:09 -0500

Depends. There is that rare instance, and I personally know of ZERO just being optomistic, where a Soldier might have a condition that meets retention standards but fails the PT test with alternate events due to their "condition". Far fetched, yes, but "possible". Now on the other hand if the Soldier is fit and has no other excuse for failing besides being a turd, he/she should NOT receive an Honorable Discharge. Maybe a General would be more appropriate but that would be a whole different topic. Purposely failing a PT test to skate out is BS and is NOT Honorable in my opinion.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2016 1:04 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Feb 2016 01:04:42 -0500

Putting everyone's egos aside I'm honestly curious the discharge given for multiple pt failures. Or who's discretion for what kind of discharge you get?

Response by Scott Bergin made Jun 5 at 2016 6:51 PM

Scott Bergin — Sun, 05 Jun 2016 18:51:23 -0400

I am seeing it happen first hand. It is the same as welfare fraud. Taxpayers getting scammed and its legal because our government fails to use any common sense 100% of the time.

Response by SGT Aric Lier made Jun 26 at 2016 12:13 PM

SGT Aric Lier — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 12:13:16 -0400

we handled this a bit different , as some soldiers just can't make the standard we offered them help. anyone failing to meet 85% score were automatically enrolled in remedial PT.... they got smoked hard.... the ones who wanted to pass excelled ,and the ones who wanted out they made sure they were never on the remedial list again.
funny we had 1 guy try for a section 8 mentally unfit.....they were going to give it to him, but with all the testing and delays his paper work never came through until the day before he was to ETS

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2016 12:25 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 12:25:16 -0400

Is failing a PT test dishonorable? I can assure you that all who have served in uniform have failed to meet the standard at some point. Using your logic, none of us should receive honorable discharges.

Response by SFC Shane Funkhouser made Jun 26 at 2016 12:56 PM

SFC Shane Funkhouser — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 12:56:57 -0400

Unless you can prove they are failing on purpose a general discharge is what they should get. Definitely not an honorable unless it is because of medical reasons. We all know you have to either be a complete shitbag or hurt to realistically fail a pt test but unless you can prove it there is no justification for a dishonorable.
That being said I've taken pt tests after 3 day benders and passed, 2 weeks after neck surgery and passed, 2 days after falling 15 ft. And landing on my back and shoulder and having a concussion and passed. 18 months during a deployment with no pt and passed. Those are just a few examples of times i really could have given myself an excuse to let myself fail over the last 23 yrs. Granted none of those occasions did I have a spectacular score but i never scored under 230 my norm being 280 to 300 plus on the extended scale but I passed. So I have a hard time with anyone who can actually fail a p.t. test and say they tried their hardest to pass.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2016 1:00 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 13:00:08 -0400

Do you know the ramifications of a dishonorable discharge? That gets applications put into the same pile with felons. You basically ruin them for not being able to run, do sit ups or push ups. Seems a little extreme to me.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Jun 26 at 2016 1:01 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 13:01:42 -0400

If they don't want in then you rotate them out, I wouldn't want that guy next to me on a patrol in Afghanastan. A general is red flag enough IMO.

Response by PO3 Arthur Dunham made Jun 26 at 2016 8:15 PM

PO3 Arthur Dunham — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 20:15:26 -0400

Let me tell you idiots that think that being big and tough is what it takes to run the military, I am here to set your small minds to rest. Not everyone is sent into a combat situation and some that are sent into combat situations should not be carrying a weapon. No one should have their lives altered because they couldn't run fast enough, or climb high enough nor do 100 push ups! So if you think a real soldier is a man that is strong then think again strong men fail as well.

Response by SPC Kortney Kistler made Jun 26 at 2016 10:59 PM

SPC Kortney Kistler — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 22:59:59 -0400

Dishonorable discharge is worse than a felony. It never comes off your record. You can never legally purchase, own, or possess a firearm.

I am an engineer and I will take a group of hard working skilled pt failures over the soldiers who can only pt well and meet a high physical standard.

Smart skilled individuals out perform dumb strong ones, unless dumb and strong is the only requirement.

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Jun 27 at 2016 12:28 PM

SSG Ralph Watkins — Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:28:37 -0400

Do you have any concept what a dishonorable discharge does to a person? Their future careers?How about you go educate yourself before you punish people for simple failure. Why does it have to be punitive at all? People have just been discharge for the good of the service for decades, what's changed to make it a punishable offense?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2016 4:44 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Jun 2016 16:44:29 -0400

I think they should get a General: OTH discharge. Because one of the Army requirements is to maintain physical fitness, and stay up to standard. If the soldier fails to do so, then they need to be put out. I won't say Dishonorable, and screw them on the outside. After all, the military is not for everyone. But they certainly should not get Honorable, if they cannot even maintain the Standard.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Jun 28 at 2016 12:46 AM

SSG Mark Franzen — Tue, 28 Jun 2016 00:46:26 -0400

I THINK THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE REMEDIAL PT UNTIL THEY PASS IT. I THINK THAT IT IS A BIG COP OUT TO GET OUT. WEEKEND SHOULD BE THERE TIME IF THEY PASS THERE PT TEST. IF NOT THEY SHOULD PT DOING UNTIL THEY PASS IT.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2016 12:45 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:45:49 -0400

So many soldiers have their lives ruined over this. The physical fitness standards are completely outdated and the height/weight/tape is even worse. I'm glad that we are relooking at this issue with a fine toothed comb. The military is definitely not for everyone but when I see people that have a couple combat deployments with genuine experience and speak 3 or more languages get booted for missing the mark by five sit ups or a minute on their run, somebody of importance should look at that soldier and ask themselves,"does it really benefit the army to kick someone of that caliber out?"

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2016 3:22 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Jul 2016 03:22:24 -0400

If soldiers want out let them out. The army keeps talking about cutting the force so what is the issue. Any veteran should know Washington looks at the military as an expense, and with that how many soldiers, sailors, marines,and airmen. The way I believe Washington should look at it has to do with the quality of our force in uniform, having said that I agree get rid of the dead weight, and if that means a Soldier who fails the APFT or height and weight continually let them out. My suggestion will allow that SGT who can not get promoted to SSG because of a 750 plus cutoff score to stay in and be productive instead of a Specialist staying in 5 years continually having issues with standards and having to be escorted by an NCO taking away from mission. We need to get away from begging Soldiers to do their jobs and making excuses to keep marginal Soldiers in because the Army wants to keep young Soldiers and get rid of veteran Soldiers. Yes getting rid of veteran Soldiers will give the military less cost paying for retirement but keeping a bunch of dead weight Specialist who could care less about mission is just a waste to tax payer money.

Response by SPC Christopher Perrien made Oct 16 at 2016 6:09 PM

SPC Christopher Perrien — Sun, 16 Oct 2016 18:09:18 -0400

General Discharge and that is it. Does not even deserve "under honorable conditions"" because it is not. Should be just a General Administrative discharge.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2017 9:04 PM

PV2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Jan 2017 21:04:38 -0500

I go back to basic tomorrow and my drill seargants are trying to get me chaptered due to injuries. If I chapter what is thr expected wait time to go home and what can I do to not get chaptered

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2017 9:13 PM

PV2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Jan 2017 21:13:22 -0500

Thr PT test is showing how you will perform under pressure and out.in the real world. However, if your only goal in failing it is to potentially get discharged then you are wrong. That is not honorable

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Jan 11 at 2017 7:30 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Wed, 11 Jan 2017 19:30:45 -0500

No way, you get an honorable for completing your time clean. If they want out you let them out, General. We had a guy who wanted out, he wasn't a shit bird he just didn't do anything, he wasn't suitable, he got a General. Then they can explain to future employers in a tough job market his story. The unit shouldn't go thru the scam of failed pts and Dr visits because his leg hurts.

Response by PV2 Christopher Langlois made May 11 at 2017 9:27 PM

PV2 Christopher Langlois — Thu, 11 May 2017 21:27:31 -0400

I failed every PT test I ever took and slipped through the cracks because I did my other jobs well. I just couldn't run long distance. I went to a small unit in Germany and they kept giving me chances but never could do it. Went to Saudi Arabia for 6 months to avoid getting kicked out. Was the best stinger operator in my platoon and 13th in the battalion. Got a new Captain who was a Ranger and it was over for me. I got an honorable and I felt I deserved it.

Response by PV2 Randall Ward made Nov 7 at 2017 1:29 AM

PV2 Randall Ward — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 01:29:03 -0500

I believe that if they have given years of service and can no longer pass a PT test then they should absolutely get an honorable discharge or better yet let them serve out their time in an MOS that doesn't require PT, use their experience and knowledge to train newbies! As for the ones who are doing it just as an excuse to get out then no way should they get an honorable!

Response by SSG Andrew Giordano made Nov 10 at 2017 12:23 PM

SSG Andrew Giordano — Fri, 10 Nov 2017 12:23:42 -0500

I agree that persons who can't meet minimum standards for any mos mandatory qualifications should be separated. But not meeting standards especially physical limitations is not a dishonorable act.

Response by SPC Corbin Doades made Mar 31 at 2018 4:41 AM

SPC Corbin Doades — Sat, 31 Mar 2018 04:41:28 -0400

I feel as long as the service member was able to perform their duties and were never in trouble other, then yes, they should get an Honorable Discharge. I served 9 years and struggled with the APFT. I'm not a strong runner. Even if I ran every day, I barely was able to pass a couple of times. I excelled in my duties and assisted in training of other soldiers. Other than personal conflicts with my squad leader, I never had any issues beyond the APFT.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2018 3:00 PM

PV2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 May 2018 15:00:02 -0400

I agree though i too failed my pt due to a broken back hip pelvis and ankle. I failed the run by just over a minute and was discharged sent home on pain meds and steroids with a Chapter 11 so the army does have some issues

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Sep 19 at 2018 9:14 AM

MSgt Michael Smith — Wed, 19 Sep 2018 09:14:02 -0400

Is it a crime to get fat? Should an individual be scarred for the rest of their life, unable to land a job, receive VA benefits, get a security clearance, etc. because they couldn't run fast enough? If a soldier wants out of the Army why shouldn't he or she be able to separate free of stigma. I think you have some big-person thinking to do. Life is way bigger than a PT test.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2018 11:18 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:18:15 -0400

I just have one question I was discharged due to physical standards I can go back to the army in January I was wondering if it was possible to go to another branch before then

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2018 11:19 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:19:20 -0400

I was discharged due to physical standards I can go back to the army in six months is it possible I can go to another branch before the six months is up

Response by CPL Jonathan Roberts made Jan 28 at 2019 7:32 PM

CPL Jonathan Roberts — Mon, 28 Jan 2019 19:32:04 -0500

Thought it was other then unless , they had completed a first term contract, then it might be honorable once placed in med board, I was medically discharged, and I once was the training NCO , most of the armys schools , required Updated PT TEST: wlc or pdlc, Bnoc, Ranger school ECT. Sometimes even promotion is depended on it, like that E4 specialist or corporal trying to make sergeant E5. Fail a PT test and see what happens no promotion

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2019 1:59 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 May 2019 01:59:26 -0400

I know of a couple of soldiers in one of my units that did this kind of activity.

Response by MSG Veronica Shelton made Jul 28 at 2019 2:57 PM

MSG Veronica Shelton — Sun, 28 Jul 2019 14:57:50 -0400

Failure of a PT is an honorable discharge. Failing a PT is nothing dishonorable. What happens when you have someone who just can’t pass? You can’t punish for not having physical abilities. Dishonored discharges imply that you did something unbecoming. Failing a pt test is not an unbecoming act; it’s a lack of ability. You might be good at pt, but I’m sure there are things that you might do that others might call unbecoming. Also if an individual wants to fail to get out, let them. Do you really want someone having your back who doesn’t want to be there?