How, as a junior enlisted soldier, do I address an NCO in my section that has a terrible work ethic?

2016-07-18T22:25:21-04:00

I have come under a lot of undue stress from my section sergeant as he just randomly disappears to do "NCO business" while leaving the rest of our maintenance section swamped. My section is already undermanned as it is. Or he will interfere with work that I am doing that he has no business being apart of. If you would like more details, you can PM me, as I'd like to not totally bash a NCO.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Jul 18 at 2016 10:28 PM

2016-07-18T22:28:45-04:00

Very carefully.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2016 10:57 PM

2016-07-18T22:57:02-04:00

Invite them to a corner, stand at Parade Rest, and start by saying, "SSG, I didn't want to say anything but I think you have to know." At this point they'll be wanting to know what you have to say which will allow you to say, "Permission to speak freely SSG." Then they'll look at you weird but say, "Sure what is it!?" Then you proceed to lay in that ass...but please try to speak professionally and tactfully. Watch what you say and how you say it. They may attempt to cut you off at times (if they're a crappy leader which is what it sounds like) and that's ok, that usually means they know they messed up but are trying to pull the rank card. Simply let them rant while you remain a Parade Rest saying ROGER SSG,...ROGER SSG. Then once they pause, if you need to get more off your chest then do so. Rinse and Repeat as needed.

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Jul 18 at 2016 11:22 PM

2016-07-18T23:22:43-04:00

Very careful on how you approach the situation! Focuse on your job, demonstrate your mastery of the trade at your level (perhaps one or two higher), if possible take care of your peers, and after establishing your self as the leader who is really making stuff happen at the section -the former 2 times commander in me tells me - use that wonderful tool at your disposal call open door policy. Bring the issue to your superiors. As a future NCO you ought to care for Soldiers at all leves. Remember: "Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind: Accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my Soldiers."

Response by SSG Mark Matteson made Jul 19 at 2016 12:36 AM

2016-07-19T00:36:44-04:00

Who does this NCO leave in charge when he goes to do NCO business? If you have a problem with his leadership style, that is where you should start.

Response by SPC Kirk Gilles made Jul 19 at 2016 1:21 AM

2016-07-19T01:21:02-04:00

You do the best you can with the people and time you have. If the section falls short of goals or has mission failure, it won't be you or the other juniors who have to answer for it. FIDO!

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2016 2:30 AM

2016-07-19T02:30:07-04:00

I understand that you are stretching yourself too thin. I would recommend to learn from his poor leadership and take it as a learning point when you finally get your stripes. For now take SSG Private RallyPoint Member guidance and do the best that you can.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2016 2:52 AM

2016-07-19T02:52:17-04:00

If you have an intermediate supervisor that's your first stop. If that NCO is first in line then you really only have three options. Address it directly, go over his head, or say nothing. Doing nothing isn't fair to you, him, or the rest of your work center. Going over his head shouldn't be your first option. I would discuss it with him in private as respectfully as possible. No matter what happens don't become disrespectful regardless of how he reacts (which may be difficult). Lastly, don't accuse him of anything. What he's doing is irrelevant as your not his supervisor. What he isn't doing is what affects you. Address that. Your team needs his help, guidance, and supervision. Especially in these times of reduced manning. Everyone is stressed out by the work load and could really use his help and leadership. (See the difference. Your not attacking, but letting him know he slacking in the leadership department and not pulling his weight work wise.). Sometimes new supervisors don't realize what their doing, they find themselves in charge and think getting their hands dirty is a thing of the past. The last thing I'll say is that sometimes you really don't know what is going on outside of your view. I find myself in ridiculous meetings and doing bs tasters all the time. Sometimes I wish I could do "real work" but the meetings and bs come with the rank unfortunately.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2016 6:42 AM

2016-07-19T06:42:53-04:00

A lot of time soldiers are worried about what NCOs are doing if he or she is your section SGT then nine time out of ten he or she might really be handling business. I.e. Paperwork meetings things of that nature that has to be done especially if you are in a maintenance company. As a specialist u should be working at that nco level so that might be a reason y he or she leaves cause they trust that the mission can run continuously with he or she handling what they need to handle... Lower enlisted these days try to always check up when they really are the ones who carry the work load.. Now I'm not agreeing with them leaving u swamped but things do happen at the nco level that basically has to be done regardless of your approval or not..remember that you have your lane the nco job is to take care of your needs and train you to standards sounds like they trust u guys enough to handle your level work load without supervision now the other side of that is he or she can micro manage you all day dictating your breaks how long u work will hinder how you grow as a soldier.. one thing that people who responded forgets with all due respect is that is as leaders have our work load also and if a group of Spc can't handle they work load while they supervisor is i.e. At training meetings which last all day doing they job at that nco level then the soldier would have been failed So I charge you to be the standard barrier at your level show u are a leader by doing and getting the job done make that maintenance section depend on you to complete the mission and see how far you go with that work hard attitude then when u become an nco I guarantee you will see the difference cause your leader ship style will adjust from your experience or what you feel is wrong

Response by PO3 Steven Stinnett made Jul 19 at 2016 10:44 AM

2016-07-19T10:44:06-04:00

while on duty it is the uniform that you must respect, maintain your professionalism at all times...

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2016 11:13 AM

2016-07-19T11:13:20-04:00

SPC
Navy here so I will try and cross platform this answer. As the LPO in my shop (Leading Petty Officer aka the boss) I spend an inordinate amount of time doing paperwork, to my junior personal it looks like I am mucking around on the computer or just attending endless meetings. They do not see me getting chewed out by the XO or the YNC for stuff that they did, they do not see me planning and coordinating training, maintenance, awards, evals, retirement ceremonies, and the committees I am on to bring command programs together. As you move up in rank you do less hands on and more supervision, you spend more time trying to empower your people to improve and take on more responsibility. It is your goal as a leader to be the stepping stone that helps your people.

In regards to your comment “Or he will interfere with work that I am doing that he has no business being apart of” have you gone down the train of thought that he is interested in that work or wants to learn from you? Leaders do not know everything (I know big secret right) Have you tried taking an instructional tone when in that situation? I find it hard to write an award for someone if I do not understand the complexity of the work they have just done. When you tell someone you reinstalled the Domain controller and Exchange server from scratch and then recovered all the lost files it doesn’t sound like much. When you explain to them the complex process they relies how much work you did and that it is complicated and worth of the award.

I remember as a junior Enlisted thinking my CoC didn’t do anything because they were not out turning wrenches or working on server’s, As I moved up I found out about all the Administrative work they have to do. (To be honest id as soon as go back to being hands on admin sucks)

I am not discounting anything you may have to say some leaders really do suck as leaders. I am just offering another perspective. Feel free to PM me is you have any questions or want to talk.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2016 2:00 PM

2016-07-19T14:00:19-04:00

Keep in mind, it could be you that is completely out of line. As someone stated, he could actually be off doing legitimate NCO business or such. And I don't see how you have work that he has no business being part of.

If you don't feel comfortable addressing him directly (and maintaining your bearing), consider approaching another NCO that you trust that is also discrete, bringing what you see and your interpretations to their attention. They might be able to give you another interpretation of what is going on, or they might have similar concerns and be able to approach your NCO as an equal about the issues and make sure he's aware of what he's doing. After that, if he doesn't either change his behavior, or try to address the concerns, then go to your 1SG if you don't feel your platoon SGT will handle it. But as someone else also said, don't go in attacking your NCO, address the behavior that is causing you concern.

At the end of the day, even if he is doing everything right, and you are completely wrong, perception is a huge part of morale, and he needs to keep that in mind.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2016 3:19 PM

2016-07-19T15:19:52-04:00

This is something you can bring up during a counseling session. The setting should be private already. There are lots of times NCOs get pulled away to perform additional duties or go to meetings. If they are truly goofing off you have your NCO support channel and the Commanders open door policy to help remedy the issue.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2016 4:06 PM

2016-07-19T16:06:26-04:00

Wish you luck. But, frankly in my day we were happy when the Sarge was away. :)

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2016 4:51 PM

2016-07-19T16:51:44-04:00

I had a situation that seems very similar to yours when I was a specialist. He had just taken over our site (a small four man site in the middle of nowhere). Before him we had a stellar nco who spent the previous months having me shadow him. The nco was there specifically for admin. The site is usually manned by techs but we were short and a linguist was put in. Well a few weeks go by and it's clear that he wasn't good at what he was supposed to do. As the Sr. Tech I brought it up a few times about his role and responibilities at the site. He just wasn't getting it. Asked my peers and they were on the same page as myself. One day I had the other two joes go and some pmcs on our equipment while I took him into a room and let loose on the insults and how he shitty he appeared to us. Without a word he walks out and goes to his room. After a week he started to show improvement.

With my experience I would have preferred to bring it up to another nco. Especially in your situation. He may be tasked with something from higher. He may be performing an extra duty. He maybe preparing counselings. In my situation I knew what he should be doing. If you don't know, a tactful way to tell if it really is work is ask him if he needs help with any tasks. I don't know of any nco who wouldn't delegate a task if he is swamped. Another way would to be to ask him what additional duties he does for the unit and how they work. Gather some Intel and see if it adds up. If it doesn't then I would bring it up to someone either at his level or the next level if it is really causing an issue in the shop.

If all else fails take the next step start doing his tasks and lead your section. It will be an experience you take with you along your career and have it in your toolbox to use when another soldier is in a similar situation. Just remember how it is now so when you become the Sgt. In the shop you know what not to do.

Response by SSG Keith Cashion made Jul 19 at 2016 6:00 PM

2016-07-19T18:00:34-04:00

You have received a lot of valuable advise and insight from people that put together, probably have hundreds of years of experience, and I would tell you the same. But as they all have said, use tact, be professional, choose your words very wisely, practice if you have to...like giving a speech. After you have heard yourself say it, think to yourself, does this sound like I am attacking the NCO personally, or just the issue.

And lastly, even when you ask to speak freely, apply all above, and be able to take an ass chewing if he isn't professional enough to handle the criticism. A lot of people do not like having their faults pointed out to them, from subordinates, much less than superiors.

Response by SGT Stacey Nelson made Jul 19 at 2016 6:09 PM

2016-07-19T18:09:31-04:00

"Or he will interfere with work that I am doing that he has no business being apart of." Well, you are his business whether you like it or not.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2016 7:22 PM

2016-07-19T19:22:46-04:00

I work in a position where I am a "operational supervisor" for e5s and e6s from the army as well as the other services. In my experience, if you tell them respectfully and do it in a one on one setting, they won't take it badly. I've only had one experience where they were offended. Most of the good ones will respect you for it if you do it right.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2016 7:34 PM

2016-07-19T19:34:19-04:00

There was one time as a LCpl that I wanted to request mast for unfair treatment, because I had a NCO that had a tendency to fly off the handle; when that happened, he was abusive and degrading to his subordinates, borderline hazing (although today it would've been considered hazing). A lot of his bad attitude came from his personal life; he found out his wife was cheating on him and he was in the middle of a custody battle. Right before I started the process, my mentor, another Sergeant, stopped me, and gave me the best advice for this situation: "no one wins in a request mast," he said "bad NCOs come and they go, but if you take a stand here and now, you will not go to a different section. He will be reprimanded and then make your life hell as a result. The best way to do the most damage is from within. Get promoted, get on his level, and show him how it's done."

A year later, I picked up Corporal, and he was passed over for SSgt. Two years later, we were Sergeants together. He was kicked out for being passed over three times, put on restriction for going to the beach and partying while on convalescent leave, and prior to his exit was a PFT failure and assigned to BCP. That is how his career as a Marine ended after eight years of service.

Now I hold a rank higher than he ever did, and I treat my Marines with respect. He did teach me one thing: what not to do.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2016 7:56 PM

2016-07-19T19:56:19-04:00

Then, You don't understand that to one day be a good leader, you must be a great follower. Your problem is not with him, it is with the fact that you are overloaded and feel like he should be working along side you. A leaders job is set the schedule, get Soldiers working and do NCO business like check on work being done, scheduling training, gathering resources and rechecking on those TRUSTED Specialist, to see that the tasks are being completed. He or she is not a hand holder of every Specialist under him or her; by the time you make Specialist, you should be attempting to step in, in his absence and keep the ship afloat and not complaining but getting accountability of work completed, shortcomings to completion of other jobs and shifting the workload as Soldiers complete their work. How do you think you will develop your own style, if you have never been given a chance to step in and make a few decisions.
Get off your complaining duff, step up and support the team. You don't know what the requirements of the 1SG are to that NCO or what the Plt Sgt have that NCO doing but you do know that the TEAM is swamped and you have an opportunity to step up and not back bite.
Once again, you cannot lead if you cannot follow! Start taking on some of his responsibilities and assisting more and you might get an insiders view of what that JR leaders facing. Also, you night gain the leaders confidence. You have a great opportunity to become more than a complainer, you can be a difference maker

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2016 8:03 PM

2016-07-19T20:03:15-04:00

I've experienced this a lot in the past 6+ years, and it's not as delicate a situation as most people would make it out to be. To be blunt, there are going to be shitty people who do a shitty job at every single level of leadership/management. If we were to poll everyone in the Army from the lowliest fuzzy to the SMA, I guarantee you everyone has had a superior at some point in their career whose work ethic wasn't up to snuff.

That being said, you don't have the visibility to see what's really happening here. It's entirely possible that your superior is truly preoccupied with other missions, and his focus is simply on other, more urgent matters. Although from the sounds of it, it seems more likely that you're dealing with an absentee leader.

You have a few options at your disposal:

Option 1: Do nothing. If you have faith and confidence (and a whole lot of patience) you can trust that the NCOER system will reflect this individual's work ethic accurately. HOPEFULLY, his rater keeps a close eye on this NCO and develops him appropriately. Failing that, you can have faith in a just/karmic universe and trust that he'll get his just desserts in the end. The upside of this is that it doesn't cost you anything in terms of your time. The downside is that it often costs your sanity--I know firsthand how frustrating it can be to see a superior get rewarded for his personally subpar performance.

Option 2: Confront him directly. This is the riskiest approach, and I wouldn't advise it. If, however, you feel compelled to talk to your superior directly, do it as many others before me have said--with tact, and respectfully. Do your best to remain calm and rational, and remember that the problem here is a very clear APPEARANCE of absenteeism. You're not accusing him of anything, you're simply pointing out what you (and most likely, others in your section) are seeing. The upside of this approach is that it can pay off very well--some people appreciate directness and forthrightness when it comes to conflict. The downside is that it exposes you to petty retaliation. If he truly is a poor performer, it's unlikely that he'll react well to having it pointed out to him--in fact, it's unfortunately all too likely that he will be petty and retaliate in small ways; he is, after all, your superior. Again, I think this approach puts me in the most dangerous position, and I highly advise against it.

Option 3: Inform his superior of your observations. Just like above, simply ask to speak openly and honestly with your NCO's immediate supervisor (be that an officer or another NCO). Often, superiors are simply unaware of the behavior of their subordinates (how many times have you honestly gotten away with some shit just because your superior didn't know about it?) and will take action to correct it once informed. Again, be tactful, respectful, and state facts and observations; don't make accusations. The upside of this is that it's less risky, but also has the greatest potential outcome--ultimately, you want to end his absenteeism and fix the deficient behavior, which this approach is likely to do. It is still risky, however, because you open yourself up to retaliation from the NCO himself if he discovers you "tattled" on him. Or, even more reasonably, if you went straight to his supervisor without affording him the opportunity to fix his deficient behavior, he could be understandably put off.

I find I've had the best results with option 3. Toxic/absentee leaders need to be weeded out of the Army just as much as toxic/absentee subordinates. If he's not contributing to mission success, he needs to either shift fire or get out of our military, because in a leaner force these days, there's no room for ass-draggers.

Good luck brother, hope this helped--if you get a chance, let us know how it goes. I'm sure RP could benefit from the lessons you learn from this situation.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2016 9:12 PM

2016-07-19T21:12:11-04:00

I love this. As a SPC I thought the same type of thing. I promoted then got put as squad leader and realized how much administration paperwork and meetings and talks there is behind the scenes. If you really think this ask to shadow to learn the job of an NCOS and see what they do. I love getting my new NCOs in who are used to hiding or just doing whatever then they come up and start the counselings and other meeting and they have their mind blown on what all really is done

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2016 9:23 PM

2016-07-19T21:23:15-04:00

Use your experience with this NCO as motivation for you to get promoted. Then once you do you will know what not to do to your soldiers.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2016 9:56 PM

2016-07-19T21:56:49-04:00

The only thing we control is our own behavior. I've been surrounded by some great and poor leaders. I learned more from poor leaders than I ever have from great leaders. I learned a ton from great leaders, don't get me wrong. The terrible leaders always made me note how terrible I felt, and how terrible my subordinates felt, being in the unit. Terrible leaders usually make subordinates focus more on why that individual faisl as a leader than great leaders make subordinates ponder why that person is so great as a leader. Great leaders are usually recognized as such at the time, but usually their greatness is never fully recognized by subordinates until after they've departed.
You need to focus on being the one who fills the gap. There's one truth in all subordinates of poor leaders. That is that everyone commiserates on how bad the poor leader is. Every minute this commiseration continues the units morale sinks disproportionately lower. You must stop this behavior as soon as you hear it. It's tough to do this because it's so easy and provides short term gratification. It's also difficult with peers. If you don't stop this behavior, than the quality of life at work plummets and sinks with it any other positivity the unit has that could mitigate the negative work environment. The one who rises above the negativity surrounding the poor leader and brings positivity will likewise see an increase in productivity in the workplace. Be the shinning light, fill the gap in leadership, keep your mouth shut in the office about the poor leader, talk to your peers about not verbalizing their frustrations, and take the high road. Poor leaders are exposed in time. Those who overcame their shortcomings are discovered in the process of their failure.
As a leader, learn from this experience. Be reflective. Always ask yourself if your subordinates are succeeding because of you, or in spite of you.
Good luck.

Response by SPC Bryan Guzman-Piedra made Jul 19 at 2016 10:06 PM

2016-07-19T22:06:14-04:00

I've had a couple of crap NCOs.

If you are having a tough time with NCOs not doing their jobs, then YOU do their jobs.

I was a maintenance manager for my flight company, as a specialist I also got limited TI orders signed and assigned to QC. Assume as much of that responsibility as you can and reap the success of it. If you can't count on your NCOs to help either because they suck, or in my case, because they were flying or assigned to other duties constantly, then take the reigns and make sure everyone knows it.

Take the soldiers that work with you and make them YOUR soldiers. Recommend them for awards(like Sikorsky maintenance awards like I did). You can confront that NCO if you want, but that will be a losing battle.

I know that you'd rather set that NCO straight, but you have a golden opportunity to shine well beyond your peers and even your leadership. TAKE IT.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2016 5:13 AM

2016-07-20T05:13:37-04:00

Also, be sure you're totally honest with yourself and your supervisors, in that... 1) Are you really a squared-away soldier? 2) Do your supervisors have any legitimate gripe about you or your work? 3) Do you really have all of your facts straight about this NCO in question? 4) How far are you willing to go to get your complaint resolved?

On the flip side, there's always that leader or that group who will not only try to tear apart your case, but also make you pay for bringing it up in some way, shape or form. Watch out. I've had it happen to me. What's worse, more than once a fellow leader has asked me more than once to help "correct" a junior-enlisted who was simply trying to do the right thing. Fortunately I saw the truth a mile away.

Response by SGT Alejandro Sarandrea made Jul 20 at 2016 1:13 PM

2016-07-20T13:13:27-04:00

You don't. Your NCO answers to someone. If he or she is not doing what they are supposed to be doing there should be an E-6 or E-7 not to far away. Shit rolls down hill. Keep doing your job the best you can and don't worry about what anyone else is doing. At least, not until it's your job to worry.

Response by SSG Joshua Sandor made Jul 20 at 2016 9:36 PM

2016-07-20T21:36:50-04:00

Your duty is to follow orders. There is no need for you to stick your nose in an NCO's business. Focus on your mission and working with your peers. An NCO has his own peers and supervisors. That does not include a SPC. Focus on working hard amd focus on your personal career not someone elses. If he is slipping up his chain of command will correct it. You are Not his chain of command. Don't make that mistake

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Jul 21 at 2016 9:02 AM

2016-07-21T09:02:11-04:00

Being a maintainer, we tend to be a little more rowdier than the rest of the folk in the Air Force. I have called an NCO a POS and a "sh*tty worker" in front of his peers and he took the criticism well, maybe because he knows it.

I highly don't recommend this though.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2016 10:16 PM

2016-07-24T22:16:36-04:00

A lot of great advice here, especially Smart Ranger SSG Private RallyPoint Member . I have to say that most of my "mentoring" from supervisors has been similar to yours in that I learned how NOT to act. Looking back, I was not as squared away as I thought I was but I was still right. Just make sure that you are running your part of the shop and looking out for those around you because it sounds like you're already a leader. Learn what you can so you will be an even better leader.

Response by SPC John Lebiecki made Jul 26 at 2016 6:07 PM

2016-07-26T18:07:51-04:00

Choose your fights wisely....This can blow up in your face fast.

Response by SGT Leon Cooper made Jul 27 at 2016 2:20 PM

2016-07-27T14:20:30-04:00

Proceed with caution.

Some NCOs are great at admin, and rely on a strong operator to keep the troops humming; you could be that guy perhaps. There might be an opportunity for you to shine.

Some NCOs are outstanding operators, and rely on a good admin to keep the 'sea of paper' afloat; from what I'm reading, that might not be you.

The truth is, until you are pinned with the stripes, bars, oak leaves, etc., you don't really know what will be expected of you from your CoC, or what will eat up your time. Look at this as an opportunity to stand out, be recognized, move up. Short-handed? I get it; it's been that way everywhere I've ever worked. Somehow, the mission always gets accomplished.

Response by Maj John Bell made Nov 1 at 2016 9:06 AM

2016-11-01T09:06:24-04:00

I once witnessed a few recon Marines attached to the MEU trashing their Captain because he "all of the sudden" was always off in officer country "goofing off and watching TV". What they didn't know, was that we were planning for a real world, imminent, high risk, contingency. The Captain was my ship board room mate. What they didn't know was that between intel updates, operational planning, mission related training, and routine duties, he was operating on about 4 hours of sleep for the sixth day in a row. Fortunately the mission was scrubbed.

His GySgt section leader was the only one in the detachment that knew what might be coming, and he put down the griping pretty effectively without violating OpSec. The Captain knew what his Marines were saying about him. He never uttered a word. He never took it out on them, and they never knew he wasn't just watching TV.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but have you taken the time to ask yourself what you don't know.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Nov 1 at 2016 9:59 AM

2016-11-01T09:59:33-04:00

You address the same way you address any other NCO. If you don't then you become the unprofessional one, not him. I would speak to his superior about his work ethic if you take issue with it.