How can a traffic stop go to an arrest? How do you protect yourself?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jul 2015 16:21:34 -0400

A lot of people are asking what the justification for Sandra Bland's arrest was. The justification for the arrest was that she made a technical error of which I'm sure she was even unaware. "In Pennsylvania v. Mimms, the Supreme Court held that if a vehicle is lawfully detained for a traffic violation, the police officers may, without violating the search and seizure limitations of the Fourth Amendment, order to the driver to exit their car. This also includes the power to conduct a pat-down search of the driver if the officer reasonably concludes the driver is armed and dangerous." Officers routinely utilize what is known as "unquestioned command of a situation". This what they are trained to do. Orders such as put out your cigarette or turn off the radio fall in the same category. If it was his intent to create "cause" for an arrest by doing this or not is known only in the mind of the Officer. If Bland had not refused the "put out your cigarette" and then the "get out of the car" order she would have received a warning and been on her way, she would not have given him the justification he needed to make an arrest. I hope anyone who reads this will keep this in mind if pulled over or otherwise having interactions with a Police Officer. The reason for this type of precedence and law is to ensure the safety of the officer. Unfortunately the Police get to see the worst of society and deal with it on a regular basis. Follow their instructions.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2015 4:41 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jul 2015 16:41:33 -0400

If you haven't truly broken the law, just remain calm and do what the cops say. As long as the video and audio recording at the traffic stop isn't altered, then you will be ok in the long run. It's the somewhat shady individuals that seem to have issues at traffic stops and can't seem to follow directions. Please keep in mind, I'm not naive and I know that there are some shady cops out there too just looking to screw people over, in that case please just cooperate and hopefully it all works out because we know talking back and resisting arrest is not the answer.

Response by Sgt David G Duchesneau made Jul 26 at 2015 4:46 PM

Sgt David G Duchesneau — Sun, 26 Jul 2015 16:46:57 -0400

You are absolutely right. If she only would of done what she was told to do by the Officer, she would probably not have been arrested. Why is it that people just simply refuse to cooperate with LE? Why do they argue and have to become arrogant and argumentative . That's what we have Courts for. The Court is where you argue your case, not on the Street. Let the Officer do his job and believe me, life will be so much better for everyone involved. If you have a problem with being stopped and even arrested, let the Court decide. I once had a Judge say to me, "your job is to just bring the violator into my Court. I will decide if they are Guilty or Innocent "

Response by PO1 Shahida Marmol made Jul 26 at 2015 5:22 PM

PO1 Shahida Marmol — Sun, 26 Jul 2015 17:22:56 -0400

If you didn't do anything wrong that you're aware of, and you comply with the officer, more than likely you will get a warning, or the ticket associated with the reason you were pulled over for. And before anyone mentions "white privilege" I want to inform you that I may be mistaken for white, until I start talking, then there is no way of explaining my accent.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2015 5:31 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jul 2015 17:31:32 -0400

I was a police officer for several years. I did have to snatch up a few people. I was more of a laid back officer. I was not want to lay my hands on someone if I didn't have too. I think this is a example of "What could of happened" vs "what should have happened." She should have just obeyed the command and if not he should have exercised some restraint. He could have done what he did but I would rather swallow some of my pride than what happened as the result of this. This is so much bigger than one cigarette. It wasn't worth it.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2015 5:44 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jul 2015 17:44:45 -0400

I've found that remaining respectful, even when they are not, is a sure fire way to ensure that things do not escalate out of control.

If the first thing out of your mouth is "Sir" or "Ma'am", the situation is highly unlikely to move beyond a citation. In fact being belligerent is a good way for your bad day to get worse.

I realize that respect is a foreign concept to many, but it has kept me from being cited everytime I've been pulled over (no joke).

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jul 26 at 2015 5:45 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sun, 26 Jul 2015 17:45:51 -0400

For anyone who has been a police officer and made traffic stops or has performed some research of LE procedures and case law such as CPT Private RallyPoint Member, there was nothing wrong with the police officers traffic stop which led to Bland's arrest. I have made several hundred traffic stops and most of the motorists followed all my instructions.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2015 6:15 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jul 2015 18:15:22 -0400

CPT Private RallyPoint Member, I am pretty much a supporter of the police, but I saw a discussion of this case on CNN - both sides of the issue were represented - and I think the officer let his ego get in his way. The Sandra Bland proponent said that the officer could have de-escalated the situation at several points, but his ego was bruised, so he pushed on. End result, Sandra Bland is dead. I'm not saying that the police killed her, but I am saying that if she had not been thrown in jail for three days, she would probably be alive today.

This case strikes a chord with me because my wife experienced something similar recently. She wasn't hurt, but still. Here's what happened: She was driving on a country road in Georgia and a trooper pulled her over for speeding (70 in a 55). (Our two daughters, 19 and 14, were in the car.) When the trooper came up to the car, he asked my wife to step out of the car. My wife complied and yes-sir/no-sir'd him throughout the traffic stop. The trooper administered a roadside sobriety test (touch your nose, walk the line, hold your head back and close your eyes), which he said my wife failed. The trooper was rude and gruff throughout the test. He then arrested her for DUI, driving under the influence (of drugs). My wife does not drink or do drugs, so she had no alcohol or illegal drugs in her system. She did take two prescription meds about nine hours earlier.

My wife overheard the trooper tell his sergeant that "this woman can barely stand up" as his "probable cause" for arresting her and taking her in to a local police station. When the trooper had left her in the custody of the local police, they apologized to her and said it was her bad luck to be stopped by this trooper who is known far and wide in that area as a jerk. My wife asked for a breathalyzer test (when she thought the trooper was arresting her for DWI). He said he didn't have the breathalyzer device in his car. That alone sounds suspicious to me. When they got to the station, my wife asked for a breathalyzer again. That's when she was told that she wasn't suspected of having consumed alcohol, rather drugs, so no breathalyzer was administered. They drew her blood instead, which my wife gladly agreed to.

That was about two weeks ago. My wife was made to wait for eight hours to "sober up" before she could leave. And she had to pay $1,500 bond/bail to depart. Now she has a court date at the end of August to answer the charge of DUI. We are hoping that the blood test comes back in time for the state's attorney to see that there is no case here. If it doesn't, or if the state's attorney decides to push on with a prosecution, we will have to hire a lawyer to defend my (honestly) innocent wife. My wife called two lawyers. One charges $4,000 the other $4,500. All this because of an over-zealous (and lying) trooper who is apparently, according to the local police, trying to make a name for himself.

I asked our 19-year-old daughter if Mom was driving erratically or swerving or anything like that. Our daughter was sitting in the front and she told me (a) she would have noticed something like that because she's sensitive to other people's driving, and (b) no way was Mom swerving or anything like that.

So, while I still am generally a supporter of the police, I think the police can let their egos and their power go to their head sometimes. I think that's what happened in this case. My wife commented to me, "Imagine if I were black." Isn't that a very sad commentary?! She said the Confederate flag was flying in front of the police station in Georgia. I realize that's a topic for another day/thread.

I say it's a real tragedy that Sandra Bland is dead. She could have been more respectful to the police officer - no doubt - but the police officer didn't have to assert his "almighty" power and wind up with his knee in her back and her face jammed into the ground because she failed to signal a lane change. For crying out loud! That turned into a person dying. How terribly sad!

Response by Sgt Kelli Mays made Jul 26 at 2015 7:00 PM

Sgt Kelli Mays — Sun, 26 Jul 2015 19:00:19 -0400

Do what the officer asks, don't talk back and go on your merry way. If there was something you didn't like or disagreed with, talk to an attorney or get help some way after wards

Response by MSgt Curtis Ellis made Jul 26 at 2015 9:10 PM

MSgt Curtis Ellis — Sun, 26 Jul 2015 21:10:51 -0400

This is just my own personal opinion, but I tend to think the issue is that the laws governing human rights, among other things, "seems?" to vary significantly sometimes from state to state and the same issue, whatever that may be, is not always clearly understood or known until an incident happens... I don't think it is due to a lack of... "stupidity", It's suddenly realizing, and often too late, what you can do in one state, city or county, is not allowed or tolerated elsewhere... I learned this very early in my military career moving from my home in North Carolina to my first duty station in Nevada... Without going into detail, I had a good 1Sgt who pulled me aside (After he picked me up from lock-up) and said to me, and I quote: "You're not in Kansas anymore, and what you do know about Kansas? Forget about it and stay neutral from this point onward... Sometimes, at that moment, being right is not the most important thing..." I will admit there was more to his reason for telling me this and it was for more reasons than the obvious of not understanding the law there as I knew it; and it was the first of many lessons I've learned along the way throughout my military career... The second? You may not agree with it, but if it doesn't involve life, limb, injury, significantly affect the good of the order, or the threat of the the items mentioned, then right or wrong, suck up the pride and ego, do whats requested of you, then bitch about it to afterwards to someone who can either do something about it... or educate you of your error... Either or, especially in the cases seen recently, at least you live to learn another day... Again, this is only my opinion and represents nothing more...

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2015 7:34 AM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Jul 2015 07:34:22 -0400

So if I get pulled over for let's say, speeding, and I don't comply with the officer's commands, that's grounds for an arrest? Is that what you're saying?

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Jul 27 at 2015 4:09 PM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Mon, 27 Jul 2015 16:09:51 -0400

CPT Private RallyPoint Member - The best way to avoid problems with the police is to remain calm and courteous, and obey all lawful commands and requests. Unless the officer is asking you to do something illegal or immoral, it is always best to comply. If you feel the request was out of line, you can complain to the correct authority after the fact.

I can't tell you the number of times I have had to deal with this issue, after the fact, and the vast majority could have been avoided by simply obeying the lawful order of the officer.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jul 31 at 2015 5:59 AM

PO1 John Miller — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 05:59:48 -0400

I am the first person to call for police accountability. But at the same time, if I am pulled over I comply with the officer's requests.

I am also proud to say that I have not been pulled over in 3 years, because I don't drive like an asshole (usually, lol) and always make sure my SUV and motorcycle are in proper working order/legal.

Also, thanks for the education. I didn't know this much about Ms. Bland's story.