How can I correct a female subordinate wearing questionable civilian clothes during TDY travel?

CH (MAJ) William Beaver — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 01:27:08 -0500

I've run into a bit of an issue and can use some words of wisdom. I have a subordinate who is 30 years younger than I am, and the opposite sex.

We travel to TDYs on public transportation. I understand that even travel to a TDY is still atime to dress appropriately if civilian clothes are authorized. In my subordinate's case, the pants are always too tight and the tops are too low cut. Maybe I am just old fashioned, but professional appearance means alot on official business travel. In this era of heightened emphasis on EO and SHARP, I do not want to do the wrong thing or say something that could be taken the wrong way. I want to see more professional or conservative clothing choices during TDY travel. Together we represent a team. I asked a supervisor of mine what the best course of action is and was told that I should not be the one to address it. But how should I proceed then? The last thing I want is to be falsely accused of harassing. Any ideas?

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Nov 15 at 2015 1:32 AM

Capt Seid Waddell — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 01:32:09 -0500

It's a brave new world out there with the current PC policies. Glad I never had to deal with that sort of thing. It sounds like having pet hand grenades with loose pins.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Nov 15 at 2015 1:37 AM

COL Charles Williams — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 01:37:24 -0500

Direct, caring, and to the point.

Response by PVT Robert Gresham made Nov 15 at 2015 1:41 AM

PVT Robert Gresham — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 01:41:58 -0500

CH (MAJ) William Beaver Even back in my stint in the Military I was accused of sexual harassment when I corrected a young female PFC for wearing her hat cocked back on her head. I was actually called in to the PFC's CSM's office along with my 1SG (who knew me well). After confronting the PFC she admitted she just didn't like "my tone". The chewing out of the young Soldier that I heard from the hallway, and the subsequent apology by the Soldier and the CSM were a relief, but I was always nervous about making corrections with members of the opposite sex after that experience. In short, be careful, unless you have witnesses to the entire encounter who agree with you. Otherwise you are opening yourself up to a possible world of hurt.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Nov 15 at 2015 1:53 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 01:53:37 -0500

Do you have a senior female ENL in your organization? You might want to broach it with her and let her take a look. Good female leaders don't like junior females trashing up what they worked so hard to achieve image wise. She'll have a good idea where the junior member fits on the "OK Scale". If not OK, don't be surprised if she wants to deal with it. I had a great female Senior Chief that I'd turn loose on the command. Seems all the questionable issues evaporated within a few weeks. I knew she was done by the wink I got when I asked if everything was shipshape. I didn't ever want to know the details. Funny thing. The junior females were more proud of themselves as a result. Let's just say they were more dressed for success.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Nov 15 at 2015 3:56 AM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 03:56:54 -0500

I would have a female address for inappropriate attire. It's really never a good idea for male to comment on a female or the way she is dressed. This will keep you out of trouble and have the situation handled appropriately.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Nov 15 at 2015 5:48 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 05:48:02 -0500

The wear of Appropriate Civilian Attire during official travel is a privilege not a right. Thus far the command has left it to individuals to use their good sense to execute that privelege. I have noticed that some individuals are not using good sense, so The standard is as follows: Attire MUST be in good state of repair. Attire MUST be appropriate for the environment. Casual is authorized, but continued abuses will shift that to business casual (polo/khakis) then business professional, then uniform.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2015 8:30 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 08:30:05 -0500

Could you make it so that you both had to wear one of the allowable Army uniforms, unbeknownst to her? It would alleviate the worry of a harassment charge and keep her looking professional at the same time.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Nov 15 at 2015 10:50 AM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 10:50:38 -0500

I would just cite the reg and say that you are making the correction because it's the right thing to do, and you would want her to do the same thing if the roles were reversed.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Nov 15 at 2015 11:04 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 11:04:25 -0500

Going to have to be a contrarian here. What I see is an attractive young woman dressed in contemporary fashion. Absolutely nothing to tie her to the military. If we use the same measure for male and female, there would be an uproar. IMO, unless there is something in the UJCMJ that defines civilian dress, leave it alone. BTW, if that is actually her picture, I'm not so sure she doesn't have a legitimate complaint.

Response by CPT Richard Riley made Nov 15 at 2015 12:23 PM

CPT Richard Riley — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 12:23:24 -0500

Just as an old saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" so goes 'appropriate' civilian attire. Provided she is not directly violating any TDY policy and stays between the lines * she is entitled to adorn any fashion that stays within those limits. In this day-and-age appropriate is a much broader tern than it was even ten or fifteen years ago. I guess I would say as long as her actions conform to what she needs them to be I would leave well enough alone.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 15 at 2015 12:41 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 12:41:02 -0500

You should be more sympathetic as inordinately tight pants are a b@tch to put on.

Response by SGM Julius McCaskill made Nov 15 at 2015 2:42 PM

SGM Julius McCaskill — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 14:42:40 -0500

You should be straight to the point. I have not read AR 670-1in over 12 years. We still have to dress in the proper attires while TDY. It was the senior enlisted to correct her....the senior soldier never gave her rank. The junior enlisted female might have changed clothes if the senior enlisted soldier confronted her about attire. I blame the senior enlisted female for not confronting her...

Response by MSgt Curtis Ellis made Nov 15 at 2015 2:47 PM

MSgt Curtis Ellis — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 14:47:50 -0500

Wrong is wrong. Correct it. If there is a "conflict of interest", have another female present when you do, preferably someone equal or her senior as well, or have the equal or Sr female do it. Look, it doesn't matter who does it as long as the "how" is professionally addressed and it gets done as this should not be an excuse/reason to circumvent standards...

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2015 3:52 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:52:43 -0500

If it is inappropriate by a legitimate standard I would address it. If I just don't like it because it's more revealing than I would wear if I were in her shoes...in my opinion it's not our place to tell people how to dress unless it is in some way against the reg or just outright inappropriate.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2015 4:25 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 16:25:22 -0500

By the nature of your comments the issues are with you and not your female travel companion. The fact that you are concerned about making "harrassing comments" is a clear indication that you don't see her as anything other than a young female to objectify. What exactly does it mean to have too tight pants or a top cut too low? Have you ever complained about your male counter parts for their dress. What do you wear on your travel? Is your shirt new or a faded and old, are your ties from this decade or the same tired ones you have worn for 30 years. Sorry but this is just female shaming. Buy her a burka, for travel so you won't be tempted. Smh

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Nov 15 at 2015 4:38 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 16:38:39 -0500

I agree with those who suggest having a female NCO or officer evaluate the situation, advise you, and possibly make a correction. Otherwise just ignore the irritation while maintaining your high standard of appearance.

Response by CPL Deb Lathem-Fulton made Nov 15 at 2015 5:02 PM

CPL Deb Lathem-Fulton — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 17:02:48 -0500

She should know better however a female should be the one to tell h

Response by SSG Paul Ellis made Nov 15 at 2015 6:12 PM

SSG Paul Ellis — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 18:12:16 -0500

What I'd always look at was if the female wasn't showing an amount of skin that was illegal, if she wasn't accidentally flashing people, I'd leave it alone. Short shorts, short skirts, skintight jeans, low cut tops or nipples poking thru the tops...that's a little risque, but it's all legal (and all a matter of personal taste.)

When I did find reason to pull a female aside regarding her clothing (or lack thereof) I made sure I had another NCO as a witness so I wouldn't get hemmed up with a false accusation. Sad to say, it was and probably still is a game of CYA regarding correcting females (especially in civilian clothes.)

That being said, even given what I'd jokingly heard about Chaplain's Assistants when I was in the Army, shouldn't a Chaplain's Assistant have a certain mindset where they're naturally modest and be intelligent enough to pick up on the unofficial civilian dress code (seeing as they're representing a Chaplain?)

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2015 6:13 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 18:13:45 -0500

There should be an emphasis on and enforcement of proper civilian attire standards. Each installation has or should have a policy outlining what is appropriate. It should not matter the sex of the individual when enforcing policies. Be succinct and professional when addressing the matter.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Nov 15 at 2015 6:17 PM

LTC Bink Romanick — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 18:17:40 -0500

CH (MAJ) William Beaver Whodetermines what is too tight and what's too low cut? That may well be the sticking point. I'd leave it alone.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Nov 15 at 2015 6:25 PM

SSG V. Michelle Woods — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 18:25:20 -0500

Sir, please do not have a female NCO or officer address your soldier. While it may seem you are protecting yourself from a potential harassment case, if you trust her enough to go on TDY alone with her, then I can almost guarantee you can trust her to have a professional conversation about proper civilian attire. Besides, a female NCO can be just as guilty of harassment as a male.
I think TSgt Hunter Logan's response is the best course of action.

Response by SSgt(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2015 6:44 PM

SSgt(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 18:44:16 -0500

As long as her civilian attire isn't sexual in nature, doesn't have obscene words or markings, doesn't have racial or extremist words or markings then there is no reason to correct her.

I think you may be confusing your own personal conservative beliefs with what army regulation and ucmj deems as inappropriate attire.

The most you can do is create a policy letter prescribing what civilian attire soldiers may wear while on official travel if you are in a command position.

Response by 1SG Nick Baker made Nov 15 at 2015 8:06 PM

1SG Nick Baker — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 20:06:13 -0500

Next trip, explain the code and expectations.

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Nov 15 at 2015 8:40 PM

COL Jon Thompson — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 20:40:48 -0500

The first thing I look at in situations like this is does the Soldier know what the standard is. AR 670-1 para 3b and c require civilian dress to present a professional image. That is a vague statement and she may think what she is wearing is OK. At another ROTC program at which I worked, we had to tell cadets what was appropriate dress for their dates at our annual dining out. Fashions do change over time and we have to take that into account. So again, was the standard made clear to her? If not, then it sounds like a simple counseling session to make it clear what she should wear and also why it is important. AR 670-1 is the regulatory guidance. I would think that would be sufficient. I also advise having some understanding on her behalf. Another mitigating circumstance is what happens when you arrive at the TDY location. Are you first going to a hotel or are you meeting someone right away. If you are going right to a meeting, I would expect dress to be more professional (business casual) vs. casual. If she is your subordinate, it is your responsibility to counsel her. But I would make sure you have a female or another witness in the office.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2015 9:49 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 21:49:58 -0500

CH (MAJ) William Beaver This should certainly be addressed and no it isn't appropriate. She represents all of us and she should realize her actions (even if passive) aren't appropriate. This is reflective of more than just her poor taste, it's also reflective of poor judgement. How can she garner respect if this is the first impression she is making on those who meet her?

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made Nov 15 at 2015 10:18 PM

MAJ Keira Brennan — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:18:33 -0500

Your kidding me.

Response by MAJ Alvin B. made Nov 15 at 2015 10:42 PM

MAJ Alvin B. — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:42:54 -0500

Dangerous gray area. First is there an established policy for travel in civilian clothing? If not, what would you base your discussion on? To most of her age her super casual travel attire is probably typical. [you know she is on official travel, however, outside of the two of you how would anyone else know?]. in the absence of a policy (which itself could be dicey), seek a senior female member for assistance.

Response by PO2 Steven Erickson made Nov 15 at 2015 10:55 PM

PO2 Steven Erickson — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:55:57 -0500

Wait... Did you just publish an actual picture of a subordinate on the internet and then enter into a public discussion regarding the appropriateness of her attire?

Methinks thou hast entwined thyself in the hangman's noose!

I hope, CH (MAJ) William Beaver, that I'm over-reacting, but... My "Spidey Senses" are screaming right now...

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2015 11:21 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 23:21:42 -0500

Correcting the opposite sex isn't that scary when you stick to the regs and policy. "Regs/policy says..... you need to correct that now, thank you." Never let race, gender, and even religion deter you from enforcing good regulation. Recently I saw a post on Facebook showing this soldier with the biggest afro ever. Did it matter they were black? Does enforcing regs make you racist? Does it matter they were a female? Does enforcing the regs make you sexist? Absolutely not. Wrong is wrong, and developing a sense of fear of maintaining good order is far more detrimental to our services than the possibility that a brief moment of some fool crying sexist or racist, when the regs have your back. But DO make sure that they do indeed have your back Sir.

Response by CPL Ruth Briscoe made Nov 16 at 2015 1:06 AM

CPL Ruth Briscoe — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 01:06:39 -0500

As long as the female is dressed in civilian clothing you may want to just suggest that she still is representing the military and should a bum.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 2:55 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 02:55:17 -0500

From a former 4th ID, BSB Commander; contact your CSM or SHARP/ EO rep and get their guidance first. We are in a hyper- PC environment and your simple correction could be 'perceived' as an offending infraction and the IG could be investigating you .

Response by LCpl Ash Carson made Nov 16 at 2015 3:39 AM

LCpl Ash Carson — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 03:39:32 -0500

I would just kindly remind her that she is a representation of her service. There is no need for her to get upset about it.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 5:05 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 05:05:40 -0500

The attire would have to be quite inappropriate to warrant a response IMO. How is it detracting from the mission? If you were attending a conference or a business related meeting at the time it is entirely different than if she is simply traveling or going on liberty in something you deem questionable. Most likely you will cause more harm than good.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 6:06 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 06:06:05 -0500

Thair a representation of the armed services and need to be in some appropriate attireattire on and off duty, its in the new regs. If that's her in the photo then yes, change those pants while traveling at least.

Response by SPC Frank Winn made Nov 16 at 2015 6:17 AM

SPC Frank Winn — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 06:17:35 -0500

I wouldn't worry about it . Civilian clothing Isn't covered in AR670-1 if she was off duty at home duty station or on leave shed wear those clothes anyway .

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 6:31 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 06:31:57 -0500

Sir,

Why are you worried about potential SHARP or EO complaints when addressing this issue? You as the professional Officer should have the right to address the situation without fear of reprimands so long as you maintain your bearing. Ensure your senior NCO is with you when you address this, as a matter of fact sit down with 1SGand have this discussion. Then I would recommend you review your organization's "Rules of of the road" (SOP) for dress and appearance when conducting official travel. Should your organization not have one then it probably needs needs to be addressed with the BN CDR. From this point forward I would ensure that those you travel with understand what is expected as appropriate dress for travel as professional Soldier representing your organization. As far as your supervisor goes he should probably reevaluate what he thinks good order and discipline mean to the organization rather than turning a blind eye.

Response by MSgt Stephanie McCalister made Nov 16 at 2015 6:47 AM

MSgt Stephanie McCalister — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 06:47:19 -0500

Chaplain, even in your position, it never hurts to ask advise, even though usually it's likely you're the one administering to others in need of assistance ...

I concur with whoever advised you, that during the current TDY, you should say nothing, but make a note, along with photo proof if possible, and take it back to your unit. Though lowest level of command is usually preferable, a direct supervisor may be in the same boat as you are. So, taking it to the First Sergeant and asking for advice on the appropriate channels or options might be a better option.

It sounds like a TDY policy needs to be put into effect, and a reminder of what is appropriate under regulations, when official travel on orders is in place and should be briefed before any TDY. Asking for a blanket policy for everyone, is far better than targeting one individual, regardless of male or female. That way, the suggestion of embarrassment, discrimination or harassment is lessened or obliterated completely.

My perspective:
As a flight crew member, when traveling abroad on high profile TDYs or into certain regions, we were usually briefed not only on security issues, but also as to the political or nationalistic sensitivities regarding civilian attire. We were reminded that we flew not only representing our branch of the military, but also as official representatives of the United States. What might be appropriate throughout Europe for example, was likely in no way appropriate in the Middle East.

For example, I always wore clothing in the Middle East that covered extremities and showed very little skin, though I didn't go so far as to emulate local customs, such as a burka, with the exception of carrying a scarf to drape over my hair if local custom suggested this was appropriate. I also wore socks so I could remove my shoes when entering a residence or a religious site if custom required it (such as in Japan). In Africa or Central/South America, covered was better to prevent sunburn and insect bites! In Europe or the US, civilian travel attire was business casual, though my off duty attire otherwise varied depending on location and expectations of available activities , though 'torn' clothing were never part of my wardrobe.

As a SNCO, I might question her motivation in suitable civilian attire while on duty (because if she was traveling on orders, she's on duty!), though as a female SNCO, I would probably feel comfortable in having the option to express my concerns, whereas you have legitimate reasons to hold off until RTB and refer the concerns through channels.

Keep in mind also, that your thoughts on what constitutes too tight or too low, may not be the same as others' views on civilian attire.

IMHO, it would be different if this is off duty attire on her own time, travel or otherwise, or even during off duty time during the TDY (reference however, my thoughts on cultural sensitivities!). We do not have to be known as the 'ugly americans' and flaunt our differences just because we can, in either our attire or our mannerisms?

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made Nov 16 at 2015 7:15 AM

MSgt Wayne Morris — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 07:15:41 -0500

Simple, all official government travel will be conducted in uniform. End of problem.

Response by CH (MAJ) William Beaver made Nov 16 at 2015 7:44 AM

CH (MAJ) William Beaver — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 07:44:51 -0500

This photo is generic. In no way would I snap a photo of my subordinate and post it online.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 8:03 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:03:45 -0500

i wouldnt touch that subject at all

Response by SGT Joseph Benoit made Nov 16 at 2015 8:24 AM

SGT Joseph Benoit — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:24:27 -0500

Wow, after I joined after months of friends telling me to...this is the 1st article I come across. People worried about how the military dresses in civilian attire. Yah... I'm glad I got the hell out.

Response by CMSgt Mark Schubert made Nov 16 at 2015 11:00 AM

CMSgt Mark Schubert — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 11:00:23 -0500

I don't understand the question - it's easy, you just tell her! (not harass her!) You are traveling as a professional and you represent a professional public service and you should present yourself as just that - above standards. If you don't want to do that, please consider traveling on your own budget.

Response by CW4 Scott Kjendlie made Nov 16 at 2015 11:19 AM

CW4 Scott Kjendlie — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 11:19:21 -0500

While I think your intentions mean well, I would like to point out something more obvious. You say you are concerned of being accused of sexual harassment if you approach her about her attire, however you take a photo of her in the clothes that she obviously posed for. I believe taking the photo is closer to sexual harassment than correcting her. I would recommend approaching her yourself about this issue, using someone else would allow for your leadership abilities to be in question.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 11:28 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 11:28:23 -0500

AR 670-1 3-9. Civilian Clothing.
Turn it into a class...provide a copy to all the soldiers (along with the Commander's Local Civilian Clothing Policy)

Generate a Counseling statement for each trooper and have them sign that they received a copy of the regulation...making note of any and all questions and the responses you provided.

Before you travel on TDY again, be sure to ask if they ensured that the clothing they are bringing is IAW 670-1.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 12:19 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 12:19:37 -0500

The command should have a policy on what is appropriate or not for travel in an official capacity.
Having said that, unless more professional attire is called for, a Soldier should be allowed to wear casual, comfortable clothing while traveling commercially. Making them wear a turtleneck and long pants is just not necessary.

Chances are good that your subordinate is not aware that her choices are an issue. A good female to female talk may be helpful to ensure she projects a good image.

Response by SFC Maury Gonzalez made Nov 16 at 2015 12:33 PM

SFC Maury Gonzalez — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 12:33:47 -0500

As long as she doesn't report wearing her skanky pants , not much you can do

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 12:33 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 12:33:48 -0500

(sac on) ... I might just .... enjoy it ... discreetly ... hey! don't judge me!! lol (sac off)

Dealing with opposite sex ... must have backup ... a few more and opposite sex preferred too.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Nov 16 at 2015 12:51 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 12:51:32 -0500

Try this, "That is questionable civilian clothes. You represent our unit, and the United States Army when traveling on official business please keep that in mind at all times." It does not need to be conservative, but it does need to be appropriate.

What would you say to a male soldier if they were dressed in an inappropriate manner? Take the same actions.

Additionally, your supervisor needs to retire or grow some gonads.

Response by MSgt James Mullis made Nov 16 at 2015 1:11 PM

MSgt James Mullis — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:11:55 -0500

I don't see a problem with the way she is dressed, as long as she is hand carrying appropriate business attire or uniforms. I used to travel all over the world to conduct Safety inspections, investigate accidents, and teach classes. On at least two occasions my luggage was lost in route, causing me to inbrief Commanders in the clothes I flew in on the prior day.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 1:30 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:30:14 -0500

I would check out AR 670-1, paragraph 3-9. Hit her with the straight answer and tell her you don't feel her attire fits within the guidelines of AR 670-1, 3-9b.: "When on duty in civilian clothes or off duty and outside their personal dwelling, Army personnel will present a professional image that does not detract from the profession, unless specifically exempted by the commander for specific mission requirements."

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 1:35 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:35:33 -0500

Simply state that we needy I look professional at all times, but especially traveling on public transport. Then address the matter that's unsuitable. Remember, you have positional power. Utilize it.

Response by SSG Audwin Scott made Nov 16 at 2015 1:43 PM

SSG Audwin Scott — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:43:51 -0500

If she is a subordinate , I would simply talk to her straight up and tell her that your attire maybe a little out of standard. Worse case get another female to talk to her if you are uncomfortable doing so.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 1:48 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:48:49 -0500

"I want to see more professional or conservative clothing choices during TDY travel. Together we represent a team."

Sir, I hope you put this quote in your counseling statement to your subordinate.

I'm not sure where we got the notion of correcting SERVICE MEMBERS - regardless of sex - is the "third rail" that can kill you. We're not clearing buildings in Fallujah, we're talking to subordinates and guiding them with a corrective conversation.

Take a public picture of the SM in the clothes in question. Then hand them a copy of the regulation governing the wear of civilian clothing (someone quoted it here in the comments) while on TDY orders and ask them if the picture meets the intent of the reg. Then ask them if they would want the picture posted in their hometown newspaper with anything referencing them to being a service member. It's not about them, but about the perception of how professionals dress when they travel.

If she's traveling, I'm guessing she's got a spare hour and two suitcases and a carry-on full of alternate, appropriate clothing she could wear instead of her night club clothes.

Response by SSG John Mitchell made Nov 16 at 2015 1:49 PM

SSG John Mitchell — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:49:37 -0500

Sir, I'm gonna be rough on you and probably not something you should say to a Chaplin but, Nut up. I'm assuming that she is your Assistant since you travel together? Remind her that she is a representative of not only the US Army but the Chaplin's Corp as well. If you are traveling TDY then technically you are still On Duty. That means you dress according to Military Standards, not as if you're going to the Club. Make the correction. Since smoke sessions are no longer tolerated, a verbal suggestion should be all it takes IF she is professional enough to take it. If not, put it on paper. I started my career in a Combat Arms Unit that had just started allowing Females in on the support side and went to a Support Unit. The difference was day and night when it came to the quality of Soldiers and NCO/Officers as well as male and female. 90% of the females used the system to get what they wanted in the Support Unit and the Leadership was afraid of their own shadow because of it. If her clothing is truly inappropriate to the mission, which is simply traveling, then you have a problem that needs to be corrected BY YOU. Not someone else. However, if it's just what makes you uncomfortable, then it can be seen as reverse Harassment in which case you STILL need to make the correction. BLUF, you have to make the determination as to whether or not what she's wearing fits with the Standards as a Representative of the US Army.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 1:53 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:53:00 -0500

AR 670-1
3–9. Civilian clothing
a. Civilian clothing is authorized for wear when off duty, unless the wear is prohibited by the senior commander. Commanders down to unit level may restrict the wear of civilian clothes by those Soldiers who have had their pass privileges revoked. Within the confines of a military base or a DoD installation, civilian clothing will be worn subject to local regulations.

b. When on duty in civilian clothes or off duty and outside of their personal dwelling, Army personnel will present a professional image that does not detract from the profession, unless specifically exempted by the commander for specific mission requirements.

c. Soldiers are associated and identified with the Army in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore, when civilian clothing is worn, Soldiers will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are commensurate with the high standards traditionally associated with Army service. Commanders are charged with determining and publishing the local civilian clothing policy. When on a military installation, civilian headgear will be removed indoors in accordance with established norms.

d. When civilian clothing has been authorized by competent authority for wear in a duty status in lieu of a uniform, the civilian clothing will be of the same comparable degree of formality as the uniform prescribed for such duty. Standards of dress and appearance will be conservative and meet the same high standards established for personnel in uniform.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Nov 16 at 2015 1:53 PM

Maj Chris Nelson — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:53:04 -0500

I could split hairs both ways on this issue. Military travel in civilian clothing should reflect good taste and dress appropriately to reflect high military standards (not suite and tie, but at least business casual). On the flip side, I can also see the possible merit for blending in with the local civilians as a force protection measure.... Looks like there is some really good advice given already!

Response by CH (CPT) Ephraim Travis made Nov 16 at 2015 1:55 PM

CH (CPT) Ephraim Travis — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:55:10 -0500

Giving an "on the spot" correction is always difficult as a Chaplain. I concur with many of the wise comments here. The only thing I would suggest is to contact the senior 56M and explain the situation. You can urge him/her to quicky develop a proper dress code to be implemented without creating an uncomfortable situation. I would also seek the approval of the Garrison and Command Chaplains on Ft. Gordon.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Nov 16 at 2015 2:02 PM

MSgt Michael Smith — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 14:02:34 -0500

I suggest you publish a dress code, much like schools and businesses do. For instance, collared shirts, belts, khaki's or dress jeans, conservative attire, etc. That way you're not appearing to single anyone out. Most squadrons (Air Force) that go TDY regularly have civilian clothes dress policies already in place.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Nov 16 at 2015 2:06 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 14:06:39 -0500

Ground it in the regulations, compliance with or deviation from.

Response by SSG Todd Halverson made Nov 16 at 2015 2:25 PM

SSG Todd Halverson — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 14:25:10 -0500

If it were my subordinate I would address the issue with her. She needs to be reminded, even though you are travelling TDY, you are still considered on duty. Let her know what the acceptable attire is during the time you are travelling on TDY orders. She may not even know that what she is wearing is not acceptable attire while traveling. Or, she may know and not care, but a kind reminder could fix the whole issue. When you talk to her, either have another female present or leave the door open a little bit.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 2:49 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 14:49:30 -0500

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this oufit.

Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made Nov 16 at 2015 3:28 PM

Cpl Glynis Sakowicz — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 15:28:28 -0500

Put out a dress code is certainly the right option here. Commenting on it nowadays might have them screaming about sexism.
Either that, or perhaps find a higher ranking female in your unit to confer with. Often times, younger females will take exception to males of any rank mentioning their attire, which I find rather odd, but hey, just younger than rocks here, so I have a lack of understanding on holes in jeans that were not put there by wearing them, and those shirts that allow several inches of skin to show between jeans and top. Then again, I'm still trying to come to terms with my purple haired daughter and my Mohawk wearing son in law... I mean, come on people!

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Nov 16 at 2015 3:46 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 15:46:46 -0500

As a Male that is 60 years old, I will tell you that we can not judge and therefore we need to be careful with our judgments and more with what we say. Also think more of blending in when you travel remember that you are a target.

Response by SSG Brian MacBain made Nov 16 at 2015 4:27 PM

SSG Brian MacBain — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:27:40 -0500

If the travel time is considered on-duty time, then dress appropriate. You can be considered on-duty while in civilian clothes travelling on commercial airline. I agree with others stating have another (senior to her) female to be with you (if all possible) when you tell that soldier to dress appropriately.

Response by PO2 Mary Jenkins made Nov 16 at 2015 4:37 PM

PO2 Mary Jenkins — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:37:27 -0500

First, I find it inappropriate for you to post a pic of her on this site. The best thing you should have done is to have her face blurred, if you want to post this pic of her on what she is wearing for everyone to see your point. The best way to take care of this to find another female subordinate, and plea your case on what you find out of regs.

Response by SPC K Webb made Nov 16 at 2015 5:26 PM

SPC K Webb — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 17:26:12 -0500

Why did your supervisor just do with 'not your job'? Why didn't your supervisor either suggest someone else, or look into a resolution?

Response by Sgt Kelli Mays made Nov 16 at 2015 7:47 PM

Sgt Kelli Mays — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 19:47:20 -0500

CH (MAJ) William Beaver This is how my kids dress...well my youngest....it's the style...the norm....brought on by the big names expensive places like Abercrombie and Fitch....and Hollister...and American Eagle...and it's not cheap....these cloths...especially the WHOLLY ones are really expensive........at least her bags are nice. LOL

I would type something up addressed to everyone stating or explaining what is and what is not acceptable clothing to wear on OFFICIAL Military business......with pictures of clothing NOT acceptable and pictures of clothing acceptable...sent it out to all of your people and then post it up...if you have a posting area.... This way you won't be targeting just her...and if she wears this again, then you can sit her down one on one and handle it, but hopefully it won't come to that.

Good luck!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 8:27 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 20:27:31 -0500

You may be slightly too conservative. If the above picture is her, I don't see any issues per se. I will tell you I've experienced a similar situation where my direct subordinate was dressed in a tank top and boy shorts for a command group dinner. I had to stop and explain what business/field grade casual looked like, and tell her she needed to go change prior to departing for dinner. I was direct and did not dwell on it.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 8:29 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 20:29:29 -0500

CH (MAJ) William Beaver I believe that a couple of others on here already posted that if you are concerned with a professional appereance then it needs to be addressed to both male and female SMs. That is the way that it needs to start.
To all of the others on here that are posting the snarky or who cares what she is wearing comments, when did we stop caring as a society and for that matter the military subset of that society that being dressed as a professional and not in "comfort" was wrong?

Response by SFC Don Ward made Nov 16 at 2015 10:03 PM

SFC Don Ward — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:03:32 -0500

I really hope that isn't a picture of the individual without permission. Other than that - If women want to be equals in the military, the special treatment has to end. If a man cannot counsel or correct a female military member without fear of reprisal, where is the equality?

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 10:08 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:08:31 -0500

My personal opinion: first, I agree that you should have a woman handle it if you want to guarantee no risk of sexism or other PC bullshit. Next, another easy solution, as suggested, is the dress code. The way that was phrased sounds very good. Having said that, I think that if you're being told to wear civilian clothes then you are assuming that you are allowed your civilian clothes. If there is nothing tying her to the military or making her look bad in these modern days then she should have some flexibility. There should also be a limit though. We don't need any Miley Cyrus's in the military.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 10:14 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:14:10 -0500

"I saw Goody Proctor with the devil!"

Response by SFC Eric Williams made Nov 17 at 2015 1:25 AM

SFC Eric Williams — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 01:25:00 -0500

Have to ask a few questions....has anyone else complmented or complained about her attire?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 1:27 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 01:27:24 -0500

At one time the clothes in the picture were considered appropriate and anything less was slutty. Unless this person you’re referring to looked like a prostitute I wouldn’t worry about it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 3:23 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 03:23:04 -0500

In this time of soldiers being targeted in public, -not- looking like a soldier seems like a good idea when travelling in civvies. Just a thought.

Response by SCPO Carl Wayne Boss made Nov 17 at 2015 5:20 AM

SCPO Carl Wayne Boss — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 05:20:03 -0500

Capt. Beaver; If there is a female of rank close to or equal to yours... maybe you could have her speak with the younger person regarding her manner of dress and what is and is not appropriate attire for travelling while representing your Branch of the Service.

Response by SMSgt Cary Baker made Nov 17 at 2015 6:27 AM

SMSgt Cary Baker — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 06:27:11 -0500

Capt, I believe it depends on the circumstances of the TDY. For example, once you arrive destination and must conduct official business immediately, then professional attire should be worn. However, if arriving your destination and no official business until the following day, then casual wear is appropriate. I used to wear shorts, t-shirt, and flip flops if no official business. I believe a little cleavage is appropriate for non official business, at the same time not to much. Your judgement sir. To address this concern with her, have a witness with you if possible, as I have with all my councelings regardless of gender. Be nice about it and if this is official policy to be dressed professionally, then include this.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 6:40 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 06:40:46 -0500

Off duty is off duty. Pick your battle. You're making a deal about something that is not.

Response by A1C Melissa Jackson made Nov 17 at 2015 7:00 AM

A1C Melissa Jackson — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 07:00:23 -0500

I would worry less about harassment (are you asking for sex? Are you making comments about her sex appeal?) and focus more on your leadership role.
1) dress as you would like to see her dress.
2) give her solid guidelines based on policy: ie: professional attire is required on this TDY travel. No jeans, low top blouses, or skirts that fall more than an inch above the knee. Slacks that are professional- looking- this way you can avoid those hideous "Capri pants"

Just putting it out there as WHAT IS EXPECTED- rather than an actual critique of her appearance is appropriate.

Critique of appearance: those jeans are so low-waisted I can see your butt crack. Your dress is so high it leaves little to the imagination.

Just give guidelines- no critique of prior attire. (Didn't I just say that?)

Response by SFC Michael Watters made Nov 17 at 2015 7:02 AM

SFC Michael Watters — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 07:02:08 -0500

Traveling and at the actual TDY location ie Conference or training are two different portions of TDY. Dangerous territory to address if you are a CPT and she is subordinate. If no policy applies it is a sword not worth falling on.

Response by Col John "Coach" Allison made Nov 17 at 2015 7:13 AM

Col John "Coach" Allison — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 07:13:36 -0500

Let it go. If she does her job, then don't worry about it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 7:23 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 07:23:49 -0500

Sir, You treat them the same as if it were a male subordinate. It would be a good idea to also have a battle buddy for you and the subordinate to ensure false accusations don't start.

Response by SSG Dale Wyatt made Nov 17 at 2015 7:32 AM

SSG Dale Wyatt — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 07:32:48 -0500

Sir,
If I was in your shoes, I would keep my subjective opinions out of the situation and use a reasonable person theory. Does the attire stuck out from the surrounding population? Is it morally objectionable? Am I using my own morales or that of society? To err on the side of society gives a broad acceptance because it is not the opinion of one person but a population.
Would this normally be considered day to day attire? Is anything vulgar or overtly sexual about the attire? Would I see someone dressed like this on a day to day basis in a business with casual dress code? Does it negatively detract from the image of the military?
If I can not weigh this as being inappropriate by answering these questions objectively, I can say that the problem is with my opinions and my want to have someone conform to my expectations.
Then there is what regulations state. To paraphrase, is it equivalent to the uniform comparable to the duty being performed, formal business meeting would warrant dress uniform, normal business operations service uniform, field or comparable duty would be utility uniform. Regulations used to have soldiers conduct travel in dress or service uniform, though regulations now allow travel in utility uniform. So, one can expressly say that if the lowest possible measure would be the utility uniform, is the civilian attire son the level of dress of the utility uniform? Does your command (company or higher) have regulations in place that expressly stated what is appropriate civilian clothing for off duty and/or travel?
To make things easier, the reasonable person theory usually allows for faster and more reasonable decisions. Hope this was helpful.

Response by CH (MAJ) William Beaver made Nov 17 at 2015 7:41 AM

CH (MAJ) William Beaver — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 07:41:09 -0500

UPDATE: Apparently this issue has been noticed across the board. Others also needed to be corrected. The last TDY we were on, a regimental CSM pulled together all the NCOs and had a face to face. Must have worked, because we are on TDY now and she is SQUARED AWAY. The system does work.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 7:41 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 07:41:27 -0500

I haven't read all the comments so I'm unsure if this has been suggested, but I would just give her an initial counseling of a policy change for TDY travel. Suggest a polo shirt with slacks or something comfortable. There is a ton of fashionable professional clothing.....I work for the recruiters and we use "soft sell" uniforms frequently. All that means for us is, a cute polo shirt with our National Guard Logo on it and pair of slacks or nice jeans.....definitely no low cuts or holes in pants. We preach to everyone, newly enlisted and seasoned soldiers, to take pride in your representation of the organization.
It doesn't have to be a male-female counseling either, where you call her out on being inappropriate in her style......just do an initial counseling, like I said, for a TDY travel policy change. I'm sure your chain of command would support that, seeing as how you're assigned to the Chaplin unit

Response by LCpl James Robertson made Nov 17 at 2015 7:53 AM

LCpl James Robertson — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 07:53:22 -0500

You are not harassing her, just face the situation head on tell those who are in command over you if you can't find another ranking female to ask her. As a group session for women address them as a whole, with a ranking women officer or enlisted personnel, on what the military deemed appropriate for travel. This issue came up years ago when I were a police officer, the Chief Of Police came into the Dispatchers area, and found officers standing around gazing at the female Dispatcher that had on a pair of Daisy Dukes shorts cut all the way up, a blouse tie on top of her stomach, he immediately told the dispatcher to go home and change clothes so that his police officers could go to work.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 8:01 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 08:01:46 -0500

Sir do not address this issue by yourself find someone else maybe a female NCO to be present and record it using a DA 4856. You should not be in any trouble if you keep it professional and observing the SHARP and EO guidelines.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 8:05 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 08:05:28 -0500

You should have your unit draft an SOP for traveling on official business. make sure it covers a dress code and what is appropriate or inappropriate for government travel. That way, no one can say anyone was harassing someone and your bases are covered.

Response by CW3 Eric W. S. made Nov 17 at 2015 8:23 AM

CW3 Eric W. S. — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 08:23:02 -0500

The same way you would correct someone of the same gender. You do it tactfully and forcefully. There is no excuse for that type of attire by a military servicemember, regardless of gender, age, or rank. I would remind her of the unit policy on professional attire, considering there is one. If there is not, you have much greater issues with you command than just holes in the knees of blue jeans.

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 8:26 AM

CDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 08:26:27 -0500

Looks like there is an Army reg that covers appropriate attire, the devil is in the detail/interpretation of what is "appropriate". I had a similar issue with my female Admin Asst, a civilian. I felt that her manner of dress was distracting at the least and borderline unprofessional at times. She was the face of our organization at reception for me and my civilian deputy. Civilian rules are much different, and our HR rep stated what may also apply here. We "old guys" have an opinion of what is and what is not appropriate and that DOES NOT matter here.......with obvious exceptions Our opinions on current fashion trends does not come into play. I always used to ask myself, "am I standing on solid technical ground here" meaning could I back it up with regulation, manual, directive, etc. Every ship in the Navy has an Officer of the Deck at the brow (gangway) who can turn ANYONE around if they feel that their dress does not meet standards or does not represent the command or the Navy Core Values . Some are pretty straightforward, those promoting sexist, racist, hateful, etc and others less so. Most CO's had a policy that laid it out pretty well. I would recommend engaging a senior female NCO to address this WITH the Soldier and present it in benign terms. There is a huge chance that she does not feel or know that her attire is inappropriate. If given some broad guidelines perhaps the light comes on, problem solved. She needs to know that how she dresses represents her not only herself, but her command and the Army when on official travel.

Response by PO3 Sonia Aguirre made Nov 17 at 2015 9:07 AM

PO3 Sonia Aguirre — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 09:07:47 -0500

During military assignments on official business, I do agree we have an obligation to uphold our standards whether or not uniforms are required. Since she is your subordinate, you could have made a written plan to email her the day before, where you could state, "Though uniforms will not be required, during travel to, from, and during, appropriate business civilian attire will be expected."Since you already received instructions from your superior to not engage, fill in a female superior in or somewhat related to her field to request she relay the expectation. Sometimes younger ones have a difficulty differentiating between the casual appropriate after hours on liberty and the business attire expected on official travel, despite the uniform dismissal.

Response by SGT Eric Sheppard made Nov 17 at 2015 9:17 AM

SGT Eric Sheppard — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 09:17:38 -0500

Get her NCO or OIC into the counseling. Do not flutter step, be professional and direct. You are in the right, so give the directive.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 9:43 AM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 09:43:29 -0500

my response would be much more Theory X as it comes from the Marine perspective that "civilian attire is a privilege - not a right." i would suggest grabbing a motivated NCO to correct her while you stand-by with arms folded. Let her know in no uncertain terms that her attire is not only a reflection of herself and the US Gov't, but also of YOU as a Commissioned Officer and that she can dress however she pleases when she is on her own time, but when she is on official business, she will present herself accordingly.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 9:46 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 09:46:45 -0500

If the ARs or AFIs are not clear, a solution is to write a section or unit SOP that dictates while on official travel all service men/women will dress "business casual". Then research what your definition of business casual is for both men and women.

Response by CPL Nanette Carvalho made Nov 17 at 2015 10:36 AM

CPL Nanette Carvalho — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 10:36:15 -0500

As an HR professional I understand these conversations can be difficult to have with subordinates. I suggest prior to your next trip there be a policy or guideline put in place for attire traveling TDY and while on site, if applicable. The policy should address both male and female standard of dress and grooming requirements, and be shared with everyone in the group who travel. This now becomes objective policy rather than subjective, which is why you feel uncomfortable discussing it with her. This is a proactive manner to address the behavior rather than a corrective discussion. However, if it comes to the point where you need to address the issue, it is your responsibility as her supervisor to do so. Bring in a 3rd party to witness the conversation to avoid potential accusations of inappropriate dialogue.
Nanette Carvalho, PHR, SHRM-CP

Response by MCPO Tom Miller made Nov 17 at 2015 10:51 AM

MCPO Tom Miller — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 10:51:42 -0500

Just can't believe how much our military has changed! A question of this nature would have never be asked in my tenure. Self respect in dress outside the compounds of control was more or less a peer prideful thing and military conduct reflected personal self respect on and off the base. No one respected out side the boundaries of normalcy. We were lead to have self respect, pride of service, and always worked hard to fit in the realm of learned leadership standards. Today's PC leadership has ruined so much in our progressive style of leaders. We were developed to act in a team that had no weak links! Individualism and break away special treatment was the last thing acceptable! When my father served it was God and country and it was the same for me and my sons. To see the exchange of values is beyond common sense. When an officer addresses this problem, it shows that morale and morality has taken a turn away from individual pride. I have been told that what you say could easily ruin your career as double standards apply throughout today's military. When I served leadership evaluation was important part of a career, I hope it hasn't become a political advancement piece of paper. The more you advanced the more you were responsible for your subordinates conduct in competitive competency with mission first evaluation. Today it's how PC you must be and how you cover your ass! I prefer the straight forward be physically qualified, no special circumstances, continue the pride of those who stood above by performace, if anything raise standards and never lower them, and get rid of these petty regulations that dumb down the might of a well groomed, prideful and competitive force that will never be individual force, but a team well prepared to work together with effective men and women that serve to be United States of America forces you never want to challenge.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 11:14 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 11:14:23 -0500

If this picture represents her travel clothes. Then I see nothing wrong with her blending in with her environment. I personally do not see this as problematic (informal wear) especially in an airport.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 11:45 AM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 11:45:46 -0500

CH (MAJ) William Beaver ,

Easy fix. You say "Sgt, I do not believe that the civilian attire of Spc X is appropriate. Ensure this does not happen again, or it will be your ass." As a Commisioned officer you make policy. As an enlisted leader, I enforce it. Bottom line.

Semper Fidelis.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Nov 17 at 2015 11:48 AM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 11:48:06 -0500

I had the the same problem when I was acting 1SG of an activating Engineer Company. My commander was a new 1LT and I was frocked to be 1SG (duty position only - no rank worn) from SFC (Cavalry PSG with broken leg). Approximately half my subordinates (male) along with some support truck drivers/medics (female) showed up at muster. In all kinds of inappropriate clothing. The gauntlet ran from torn jeans, flip-flops and muscle-Ts through dirty clothes on into 3 guys with 3-piece business suits.
.
I told the Commander I wanted to inspect the troops. After he left with the only other active NCO (SSG) to meet with the pilots & cargomaster. I sent the majority to the hanger for morning chow while having the NCOs Leadership stand fast. Once the troops were gone I simply announced to the NCOs that the uniform could be either Class Bs or BDUs. They quickly agreed that BDUs was the way to go since we had a lot of gear to prepare. Instructions were given to the troops after chow, an inspection was held a 1/2 hour later by the different PSGs (SSGs) & SLs (SGTs). The offenders were re-inspected a 1/2 hour after that inspection. A memo was made up and signed by the commander so I could hand carry it to CIF along with some soldiers to re-issue missing equipment & uniforms. The active duty SSG took a busload down to AFEES to buy rank insignia, etc, etc.
.
As this may not fit your situation since its one person. May I suggest a call to the person's 'real' Supervisor and let them fix the long term issue - immediately after you do a spot correction.

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made Nov 17 at 2015 12:01 PM

SCPO David Lockwood — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:01:47 -0500

Sir you have every right. I would pull her over to the side and show her my ID and talk with the young lady. My wife hated when I did that stuff!

Response by MAJ Bill Maynard made Nov 17 at 2015 12:05 PM

MAJ Bill Maynard — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:05:25 -0500

Just tell her that business casual is required - you can do that since it's official travel and you are her military supervisor. BTW if it's the female in the photo, I would say she is dressed modestly...maybe too casual though...

Response by SSG Greg Kerr made Nov 17 at 2015 12:42 PM

SSG Greg Kerr — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:42:55 -0500

Pull up your big boy panties. Walk up to the soldier, tell them that what they have on is not appropriate. They need to change asap. Then get the soldiers first line supervisor and have a talk with them as well. Everyone needs to stop letting things like his get in the way of soldiering.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 12:43 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:43:50 -0500

She's wearing trendy stuff. In her mind it's appropriate civilian attire. As long as she doesn't show up for work like that, I wouldn't worry about it.

Response by 2LT Earl Dean made Nov 17 at 2015 1:06 PM

2LT Earl Dean — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 13:06:07 -0500

First be honest with yourself. If she doesn't look any different that the public around you! leave it alone! With the way things are going in this world today looking military in civilian clothing can cause you to be a target! If its the girl in the picture she looks fine. Nothing is exposed and when she gets to the post as long as she looks professional and does what she should she is OK! to dont get the way younger people dress but then I am not their age and don't live their lives.

Response by SSG David Clayton made Nov 17 at 2015 2:36 PM

SSG David Clayton — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:36:45 -0500

I agree with TSGT Logan, but I take it a step further. I'm a former Army NCO over females and now have female students in my civilian job. My wife always says its better to have another female address things of this matter with females. I disagree with MCPO Collins.....you are under the UCMJ 24/7 until separation and have no ''rights'' (at least that's what the Army preached)!!. This used to be considered ''Unbecoming of a soldier'' (terminology may be different today). This applied even when on personal leave!! I guess this is enforced based on the branch of service or command these days? You can't allow civilian society to dictate military standards! Just be professional and lead!!

Response by PO1 T.M. Ritchie made Nov 17 at 2015 2:49 PM

PO1 T.M. Ritchie — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:49:52 -0500

When I was in the navy and traveled TAD we had a dress code of what was and what was not proper attire. No T-shirts at all every shirt had to have a collar no pants with holes and no tennis shoes though your service boots were allowed for ease of transport. We were told we represented the military even in civilian clothes and would be judged for what we wore in public. Maybe those in charge today should grow a pair and become a leader of all not just men. I had no problem correcting junior females subordinates on clothing issues and they knew it. It is called RESPECT for your service. They want to dress like that leave....

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 3:15 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:15:17 -0500

During TDY (Official) travel you orders or SOPs should have guideline. I feed it better to go over issues like this prior to the event, laying down the ground rules.

Response by SGM Robin Johnson made Nov 17 at 2015 3:19 PM

SGM Robin Johnson — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:19:29 -0500

A big point from your subordinate's point of view will be the issue of duty status, especially dependent upon her rank. Does she consider herself on-duty or off-duty when enroute to TDY? And do others in your unit consider themselves on-duty or off-duty? If ANYONE in your unit drinks while enroute to TDY that should give you the answer.

If people in your unit are off-duty while traveling enroute to TDY, then this young Soldier would reasonable consider herself off-duty while traveling, and at that point if that is the young Soldier in the picture above, I agree with MCPO Roger Collins that what she is wearing is contemporary fashion and nothing indecent. She wouldn't garner a second glance other than being seen as any attractive young civilian woman might. Additionally, are the two of you REQUIRED to travel to your TDY location together? If her civilian attire distresses you, you could travel separately.

If everyone in your unit is considered on-duty while traveling enroute to TDY (no one drinks, everyone else has some standard of dress to which they adhere and expect their subordinates to adhere, etc) that has probably been stated in your unit's policies. Then you have to ask if everyone has upheld or enforced the standard. If not, and she will be the only one in the unit being held to that standard, then you would have good reason to worry about a complaint. (This is coming from a former EO SGM.) Enforcing a standard of dress on one young female based on your individual standards of 'decency' could be seen as projecting your stereotype of women and what is 'proper' behavior and a patriarchal idea of how women should act in regard to their bodies and sexuality. If you don't think it is proper for women to wear pants that are in contact with their skin the entire length of the pant, that would be an example of you projecting your personal moral code of what is 'proper' for women. Not calling what you believe wrong, just saying that it is YOUR moral belief and while you can live by it, you may not force her to.

As long as she is in compliance with regulations, she is good and you should bite your tongue. I would be cautious about defining something as 'too' low, simply seeing cleavage isn't the definition. Being able to see her bra, or the area you would if she were wearing a demi-bra (go to the lingerie section and look at one for example) is a good determining factor for this that I taught officers and NCOs who asked me for advice. For tightness, if you can see the outline of her genitalia, you might reasonably say it is too tight for decency, but then you have two hurdles, are you doing this for guys and why are you looking at her crotch?

If she is supposed to be meeting some standard of civilian attire, ensure you understand what that is, then ensure she understands it. SSG V. Michelle Woods was right, this is your job and your should be able to do it for both your male and female Soldiers as a leader. Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS had the right idea about focusing on the exact standards - they are usually about cleanliness and being in good repair - the real issue is likely to be that the jeans are the style that are tattered (purposefully, I know.) If the standard is business casual and everyone is actually adhering to that and enforcing it, be prepared to define it, because unless something has changed in the last few years the Army doesn't officially address that until the senior ranks of the enlisted education system. Even then, how it is interpreted varies widely.

I know this has been a lengthy response to what may have seemed a simple question, but I wanted to give you counsel that may provide a frame of reference for similar situations in the future, if I could. When I was doing my EO SGM thing I would rather sit with a leader for an hour up front to address a 'simple' question during an SAV, trying to make sure he or she got the concept, than sit for a week reviewing the appeal of the EO complaint.

Response by SFC Jay Needham made Nov 17 at 2015 3:24 PM

SFC Jay Needham — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:24:17 -0500

Given todays fashions I wouldn't dress this way, but that is just me I would be physically uncomfortable with tears in my Jeans. But as to if is was appropriate dress, I find nothing wrong with her apparel. She looks to be an attractive young woman and if she feels comfortable traveling in them and it isn't offensive to anyone then I find nothing wrong with it.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Nov 17 at 2015 3:30 PM

SPC Byron Skinner — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:30:13 -0500

Sp4 Skinner, The issue is not how the young lady attires herself (I assume the attached image is an example of the objectionable attire) The problem sir is with you not her. From what I see there is no indication the young lady is in any way affiliated with the military. I'm much older the you Captain and leaded years ago the every generation has its own look and obviously your subordinate choses to identify with her civilian peers and not as a member of the armed forces. The last I looked at the UCMJ there is no regulation on travel dress, unless specified as an order, for TDY travel. Chill out sir and don't judge people by their dress. I agree with the person that advised you to back off. Don't make a problem when there isn't one.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 3:33 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:33:36 -0500

Honestly if you just sat down with her in a professional environment and told her what you just put on here I don't see anything wrong with how you worded it in your question... seems plenty professional to me. All you are doing is showing concern for what others might hold against her on first impressions for working conditions.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 4:09 PM

CAPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 16:09:11 -0500

CPT,
Who is ultimately responsible for your unit? Have they established standards for civilian attire when on official travel? If so, does the subordinate's attire meet those standards? If her attire does not meet those standards it is your obligation to inform her that her attire does not meet standards.

If the command does not have a published standard, then you could suggest that they establish one.

In addition to ensuring that the command has an established standard for civilian attire when on official travel, I would discuss the young lady's attire with her. As a senior leader, you should take the opportunity to mentor your subordinates whenever it presents itself. In the grand scheme of things, the only significant issue that I can see with the attire that you are describing is if your group is to be met by representatives of whatever organization you are traveling to go see while she is wearing said attire. If that is the case, she needs to ensure she is dressed in a manner appropriate for someone who is representing your command (The attire shown in the photo above does not meet that standard.).

Even if you are not going to meet anyone in an official capacity while wearing civilian attire, service members need to be aware that they are representatives of their service and of their country. This area gets to be a bit more tricky as to what is appropriate (The attire shown in the photo above is probably appropriate for in-CONUS travel given our nation's cultural norms, but probably not for OCONUS travel).

If you have a more senior female (as compared to the one whose attire you are concerned about) in your unit that you can discuss this issue with you might want to do so. I have done this in the past when confronted with issues regarding female junior sailors, and I have found it extremely beneficial. Just make sure you enter the discussion with an open mind. You are an old guy, and your perspective isn't the only one that matters.

Response by TSgt Liza Kazee made Nov 17 at 2015 4:31 PM

TSgt Liza Kazee — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 16:31:14 -0500

After reading several of the comments related to this question I found myself wondering what each branch of service has to say about travel and the authorization of civilian attire.

The Army Regulation 670-1 Section 1.13 Pg 9 b. When on duty in civilian clothes, Army personnel will conform to the appearance standards in this regulation, unless specifically exempted by the commander for specific mission requirements.

AFI 36-2903 is a bit more specific - 1.3.5. Those choosing to wear civilian clothing in lieu of a uniform during official travel will
ensure it is neat, clean, warm enough for in-flight operations, and appropriate for the mode of
travel and destination. Examples of inappropriate clothing include: ripped, torn, frayed, or
patched clothing, tank tops, extremely short shorts/skirts, undergarments worn as outer
garments, bathing suits, and any garments which are revealing or contain obscene, profane,
or lewd words or drawings.

NAVPERS 15665I is a bit more ambiguous - GOVERNMENT TRANSPORTATION. Navy personnel traveling aboard any military organic or commercial contracted (chartered) aircraft may wear civilian clothing when traveling on regular/emergency leave or Space A travel. Personnel on PCS or TAD orders may travel in civilian clothing unless otherwise directed by cognizant authority. Those who wear a uniform will observe regional travel requirements. Navy personnel must ensure that their dress or personal appearance is appropriate for the occasion and conforms to required standards. Members wearing civilian clothing will ensure it is warm enough for in flight operations and destination. Personnel traveling overseas should consult the DoD Foreign Clearance Guide for any particular rules.

Marine Ccorp -The Commandant of the Marine Corps has extended the privilege of wearing civilian
clothing to officers and enlisted Marines with limitations on these regulations. Marines may wear civilian clothingwhen in an off-duty status and when directed by competent authority. Within the confines of a military base, civilian clothing will be worn subject to local regulations. Marines are associated and identified with the Marine Corps in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore when civilian clothing is worn, Marines will ensure that their dress and personal appearance is considered appropriate civilian attire by being conservative in nature. A good guideline is that the civilian clothes should be equivalent in nature and appearance to authorized
uniforms for leave and liberty.

a. Wearing of clothing articles not specifically designed to be normally worn as headgear (Bandanas, do-rags) is prohibited.

b. No part of a prescribed uniform, except those items not exclusively military in character, will be worn with civilian clothing. (Gortex jacket cannot be worn with civilian attire MARADMIN 704/09).
c. Examples of inappropriate civilian attire are:
(1) Beach or swim wear
(2) Gym or sweat gear
(3) Tank tops
(4) Short shorts
(5) Ripped or torn clothes
(6) Garments designed as underwear
(7) Clothing with designs of an obscene or suggestive nature
(8) Shower shoes/flip-flops ar uniform or civilian clothing requirements for their destination.
GMK 1015-6

So for those of you insisting that CH (Capt) Beaver is the one with the issue, I strongly suggest you take a look at the regulations for your particular branch of service. If the picture presented is providing us with an idea of what his subordinate is wearing while on official travel status, then he is correct in his concerns. I believe that he should correct her himself with the assistance of a female officer or NCO. I've seen too many instances where individuals will twist the context of the conversations to their advantage if given the opportunity.

As for those of you who are defending her right to wear whatever she chooses, when on government travel orders, maybe you should rethink your stance and take a long look at what appropriate would be if it were one of your subordinates on official travel.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 5:04 PM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:04:17 -0500

As a female that served on one of the 1st ships that had females aboard and just completed almost 23 years of service with the Navy, Army and Air National Guard. I think you has a SNCO or Officer have a duty to the junior troop to give her counseling. She is young and doesn't think that the way she dresses reflect badly on both herself and the military. Unless she is told, she doesn't know, she is dressing how her friends dress. You take her aside - don't do it in front of a group or during rollcall etc. - if you feel the need to have a female SNCO and/or officer with you, you can do that, but you has her supervisor should stand up and take responsiblity for teaching your junior troop that how she dresses and act both in and out of uniform is a reflect on herself and the military. You want to keep it on a general discussion that in the past she has not dressed for the situation - IE traveling to and from a TDY - in a military status - the fact that she is allow to go in civilian clothes is a right and it can be taken away - she could be told to travel in her uniform - if she can't dress in proper civilian clothes.

If after you have a verbal counseling with her, she still fails to change her clothing, then you need to give her a written counseling and then get progressively hard on the NJP. You also should make her aware that she could not be retained at the end of her enlistment due to this issue as well as face a demotion of rank.

While I agree you might not like having the discussion with her, you wouldn't think twice if you needed to have it with a male junior troop in your unit. Take the gender out of the discussion - your are the SNCO and they are a junior troop - end of story. If she makes it an issue then she is going to have an uphill battle that will only end badly for her. I've seen it happen, too many times - females join the service and then cry I can't do that I'm a girl - well we were told back in the Navy, but on your big girl pants and get over it. You joined and you are gong to do the job just like everyone else.

In the end - a few years from now - she will either be gone or be thanking you for taking an interest in her career and showing her the errors of her youth.

Response by SGT Rick Ash made Nov 17 at 2015 5:12 PM

SGT Rick Ash — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:12:03 -0500

Keep your comments short and very professional. Inform the young lady that traveling on TDY orders does not release her from her duty to the Armed Forces. She still represents the branch she serves and needs to present a certain image even if it's blue jeans and a blouse with jacket. Jeans that are torn and not worn are not acceptable. If she wants to argue the point just walk away but elevate it to the BN level to insure that the next time she travels on TDY duty it will be in UNIFORM. You have that authority and responsibility.
Thanks,
Rick

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 5:12 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:12:42 -0500

CH (CPT) William Beaver, Sir, with the utmost respect and dignity warranted a service member in a public setting. As tactfully as possible and preferably with a witness present. She must understand the example she sets in her actions and appearance. I would make a point of explaining how unprofessional she looks, sir.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Nov 17 at 2015 6:21 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 18:21:03 -0500

Well I can say ripped jeans is an obvious no go in my opinion.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 9:33 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 21:33:36 -0500

A pair of pants being tight, a low cut shirt. Not seeing to much of an issue. Now if it is so short that some junks about to hang out or if it's about see through, let that soldier know! We are professionals in and out of uniform and being tasteful is a part of that sense of professionalism. No need to be a clothing Nazi, just educate Ur soldiers on their appearance every now and again!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 10:20 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:20:53 -0500

Sir, as a senior female NCO, my advise to you is "The same way you would correct a male soldier." Why are females so feared and treated so differently then males? This has always bothered me since the day I joined the Army. It is your fear (and the fear of all the other males in the Armed Forces) that empowers females to do some of the outrageous things they do. Why? Because they know that 9 out of 10 males will not say ANYTHING to them, but if a male did what the female did, 10 out of 10 males would correct him. I completely agree with PO1 Bill Adams, it is a very, very, very sad day when a leader cannot or will not correct a subordinate.

Response by SFC Jason Babb made Nov 17 at 2015 10:36 PM

SFC Jason Babb — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:36:32 -0500

If that's her in the picture, I don't see anything wrong. Unfortunately, not everyone will fit into your idea of what's acceptable.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 1:00 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 01:00:23 -0500

My unit goes TDY all the time. We have clear guidance from the commander what the appropriate attire is for travel. As in any unit, the senior ranking individual should give clear guidance on issues such as this. If said guidance isn't given/received clearly, subordinates should ask for it and receive it. This eliminates issues such as this one. If there is an individual not adhering to the standard regardless of gender, rank, position, etc. then that individual should be told by their first line supervisor or equivalent position what the standard is and that they are in breach of established standard. Then, give that individual options on how to correct the situation and there shouldn't be anymore issues. If there is another issue with the same standard, escalate the level of force by issuing written counseling, reprimand, or maybe fitting for UCMJ for failing to follow orders or whatever fits the violation. I'd start small and escalate as needed if needed. You don't always need to hit something with a hammer. And lastly, never be hesitant to correct someone because of gender, rank, position, etc. The standard is the standard. Be professional and you'll be fine.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 1:52 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 01:52:35 -0500

You should address it, however have another female with you so maybe she can address the issue better, or so the female will not get butt hurt. Just remember to let them know that they are representing the military and to dress respectfully while traveling to and fro.

Response by MSgt Robert Pearson made Nov 18 at 2015 5:17 AM

MSgt Robert Pearson — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 05:17:04 -0500

If possible find a female senior to the subordinate and ask them to have a private word with the individual. When on official travel military members should present a professional image. If the private word does not work then ask the female ( senior to the individual and if possible equal to or senior to yourself) to set in on a formal discussion as a witness and instruct the young lady on the importance of a professional image when representing the military.

Response by SGT Debralynn Jackson made Nov 18 at 2015 5:21 AM

SGT Debralynn Jackson — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 05:21:56 -0500

I haven't been in since the 90s, however, if the regulations do not cover civilan attire for travel, ask your commnder to make a policy with specspecigic about what is propriate attire for en and oen.

Response by MSgt Jeffrey Glick made Nov 18 at 2015 6:08 AM

MSgt Jeffrey Glick — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:08:28 -0500

Sir,
It's pretty simple when she joined she would have been kicked out of MEPS for wearing clothes like that. If you are afraid of a sexual harassment issue make sure to have another female present when you bring it up to her. I would just start by asking her to try and dress more professional while on government orders. Or you could go the humor rout and ask her if she really paid for half a pair of jeans. But I would try the professional attire while on TDY orders.

Response by PO2 Kevin De Sena made Nov 18 at 2015 7:17 AM

PO2 Kevin De Sena — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:17:29 -0500

Sounds like a memorandum needs to come out, all TDY travel is to be done in business casual wear only.

Response by SPC Margaret Higgins made Nov 18 at 2015 7:20 AM

SPC Margaret Higgins — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:20:50 -0500

An absolute YES.

Response by SGT Ryan Kiesling made Nov 18 at 2015 7:55 AM

SGT Ryan Kiesling — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:55:57 -0500

First, don't stare at your subordinate's body and you won't be sexually frustrated in her presence. Let's take a moment to be honest with ourselves, is it her clothes that bother you? Perhaps the real issue is that you're looking at her with lustful ideation and your lack of self control is causing you to want to control her somehow. There is no profane image or writing on her attire and she is modestly dressed for a young woman in the United States. Being identified as a service member traveling on TDY is a security issue and she is doing a good job of blending in.

Response by SGT Alfina Hopkins-Wasnuk made Nov 18 at 2015 8:11 AM

SGT Alfina Hopkins-Wasnuk — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 08:11:10 -0500

As her supervisor you the right to tell her she is not dressing proper. With a female, if she is professional she will take it as it was given, if then have another female with you either way. She knows better, she at work and there is a code of common sense. Youth, I will apologize for her.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 8:34 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 08:34:29 -0500

Too tight and too low cut seems to be a personal opinion. From the pic posted, I've seen guys wearing tighter pants. I personally believe that as long as she isn't presenting her "goodies" to the world, I would try to be flexible. If it does make you uncomfortable, maybe expressing that you are in fact uncomfortable would resolve the issue. She seems to wear what every other person her age wears as casual clothing. Isn't blending in one of the main reasons to wear civilian attire and not becoming a target. I would never guess she is military based on the pic. Good luck in finding a middle ground.

Response by SSgt Robert Dant made Nov 18 at 2015 9:01 AM

SSgt Robert Dant — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:01:03 -0500

I guess many have given good advice here. I think the place to start is with the code. Is she in or out of code? Do you have men who are in or out of code. The military should not have any sexual difference - we are all soldiers who have a code to follow.

Secondly, search your own heart and soul - is this offensive to you because of the dress or is there another reason. Make sure you are keeping this at the military level.

Once you have all of that in place, and you are in a good place - then you address the issue. Someone mentioned - do not bring anyone else into it. This is yours to own and you should be the one to address the person (male or female) who is dressing in appropriately according to the code.

If there is no code - sorry - welcome to the new age.

I had this happen in my civilian life and I did have a female that was just showing too much off - I had to address the issue and took it to her and explained how she was actually degrading herself at work and people did not see her as a professional - but as a good looking female. I turned it on her and asked her what image did she want to project to the organization. Lucky for me she changed.

Response by MAJ George Huley made Nov 18 at 2015 9:08 AM

MAJ George Huley — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:08:00 -0500

Publish the standard for TDY travel. This is like any leadership issue. Once you are at the airport it is too late. Tell her that even in civilian clothes, SMs should look like professionals. You can address behavior and other practices. Don't drink alcohol while on TDY trips. I mean while at the airport and on the plane. One there a drink or two is OK. Clothes need to protect the person too. The person's legs pictured here, are less protected.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 9:46 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:46:29 -0500

CH (MAJ) William Beaver Most commands have a policy or fall under a higher authority's policy for appropriate civilian clothing worn in the commencement of one's duties as well as addressing what is and is not appropriate. I would start with the policy and use it as a tool to assist in conducting an informal counseling. If the member continues to dress inappropriately then you may have to perform a formal counseling. Make sure you document both counselings for records purposes. If you are worried about being accused of harassment, then I would suggest having a third party be a neutral witness to both counselings. This way you are documenting that a third person was present.

If your command does not have a policy in place or does not have a higher authority policy, then I would suggest putting one in place and making sure that all members of your command have copies of the instruction (e.g. sent as PDF to all command members). Then if there is an infraction to that policy, you can address it appropriately. If you need examples of civilian clothing policies please let me know and I can share some templates with you.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 9:59 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:59:46 -0500

We wear a uniform 24/7 relax!!! Jeus

Response by MCPO Katrina Hutcherson made Nov 18 at 2015 10:06 AM

MCPO Katrina Hutcherson — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:06:29 -0500

CH (CPT) William Beaver, I disagree with your supervisor that you should not address it and am curious if the supervisor told you who should. My advise would be to treat her as your subordinate. There is no need to take her gender into account. Tell her she needs to dress more professionally and conservatively because although she is not in uniform, she is at work and should still be squared away. My philosophy was always that when you enlisted you became whatever your rank and rate was and you leave your gender at home with your civies. i hope this helps.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 10:39 AM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:39:12 -0500

How far to the other side have we gotten that we have to question if it is acceptable to correct a soldier due to gender... Last i heard equality is equality. This double standard needs to stop.

Response by TSgt Gwen Walcott made Nov 18 at 2015 11:01 AM

TSgt Gwen Walcott — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:01:27 -0500

I think you all have to make up your minds:
--- Is she supposed to be a representative of the military or the government?
=== Then have her travel in uniform
--- Is she supposed to be impersonating a civilian (so no ties are made to the military)?
=== Then she is doing a fine job --- and is perfectly representative of a US civilian.
(( BTW, sex has no business as part of the argument --- that's both sexist and bigoted --- leave the term "beauty" out of the discussion -- it is totally irrelevant ))

Response by SFC Jessica Hicks made Nov 18 at 2015 11:10 AM

SFC Jessica Hicks — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:10:06 -0500

Hence the three letters " TDY " , The "D" specifically is for DUTY, As a professional force, it is our duty to represent the Military as such, therefore, yes the "Soldier", gender should not matter, should be approached. A good idea would be with the monthly counseling, staring with the Army Values.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 11:21 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:21:36 -0500

Sir it is called professional development if she is good enough to be in this position as a service member then she should dress the part of the professional. All it takes is a simple conversation in what constitutes as appropriate business casual. As far as any harassment if he clothing makes you uncomfortable than you are the one that has the case. So in case I rambled too much. 4856 as a courtesy she is your subordinate it is allowed and sometimes needed not a bad counseling but a informative one. And poof problem solved. But sound advice has a female with you anytime you talk to this person.

Response by Cpl Isaac Cruz made Nov 18 at 2015 11:30 AM

Cpl Isaac Cruz — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:30:01 -0500

You can always contact her NCOIC an suggest a higher grade of civilian attire. Should this occur again, report it to her NCOIC and lastly, suggest to the individual that a business code of dress is required in the future.

Response by PO3 Joshua Hoots made Nov 18 at 2015 11:45 AM

PO3 Joshua Hoots — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:45:49 -0500

You simply need to explain the appropriate dress code. What one wears to run errands may not be appropriate for the office or going out in. You need to be respetful and stay away from comments about too tight or too low cut and remind them that they are ambassadors to their branch of service.

Response by Col Gonzalo Arturo Gutierrez Orozco made Nov 18 at 2015 12:02 PM

Col Gonzalo Arturo Gutierrez Orozco — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:02:14 -0500

The exemples from mode show model obiusly for any persones special the girls mises and womans.

Response by SMSgt David A Asbury made Nov 18 at 2015 1:12 PM

SMSgt David A Asbury — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:12:17 -0500

I understand your situation. I will agree with you that we are older and don't wear the latest fashion of the younger generation. Since she can travel in civilian clothing at the present time, you must allow her to fit into her comfort zone and wear what she pleases. Without a dress code in place, take this time to build a better relationship by making small talk with her while you are waiting to board the plane or while driving. Let her know that you sometimes do not understand why people do the things they do at her age group to include their attire. What ever you do, do not tell her she has dressed inappropriately at this time. When you get back to your home station, contact your First Sgt and ask him to get you information from all of the other Squadrons on the base in regards to a dress code while traveling on Official orders. This would include both uniform and civilian dress code standards. While you are waiting for the first Sgt to get back with you, take time to talk with other airman in your Squadron to include both males and females. Make sure you have a female assisting you in asking the questions. Now you have information as to what both male and female wear when not on duty. The First Sgt advises no base/installation dress code when traveling on Official Orders exist. Now the challenge , contact the Senior Enlisted Adviser. Ask the adviser to check with other installations so see if they have a dress code while traveling on Official Orders, and last have him contact the Command Senior Enlisted Adviser has a policy. If all say no, then advise your Squadron Commander you will write an Official Dress Code for both Uniformed and Civilian Dress while traveling on Official Orders. Once approved for your Squadron, see if you can sell it base wide, if you can do that, take it credit for it and try to get it Command wide.

Response by CW3 Jim Norris made Nov 18 at 2015 1:36 PM

CW3 Jim Norris — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:36:32 -0500

On spot correction? Specialist your appearance during this trip to 'whatsomever' is going to be observed by our leadership and the civilians population as a representation of our professionalism. It is my expectation that 'business casual' attire be worn at all times. 'Take few few minutes before we leave the hotel this evening to google business casual attire and let's see what you think.' That worked for me on an occasion with a Sgt and she showed back up looking like a professional young woman ready for anything, I was proud of her and she was later overheard teaching her subordinates what 'business casual meant.. It is always helpful if you as the NCO or officer have on dress slacks and a sports coat. Set the example, and even if you have to correct a female, make sure your attire, demeanor and conduct have always been unimpeachable both on and off duty. I like TSgt Logan's idea of having another present, but sometimes that not always so. What can always be so is your character and bearing.

Response by CPO Hector Mercado made Nov 18 at 2015 1:47 PM

CPO Hector Mercado — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:47:04 -0500

This very question is a reason of why I decided to retire. Too many senior personnel not doing the right thing of taking charge because they are afraid to make a decision. Have you attempted to look into your Uniform regulations both military branch and command specific? DO NOT be afraid to approach your subordinate, point out the flaw and issue the order. And remember, your Senior Enlisted Leaders/ Advisors are there for you. DO NOT DISCREDIT their experience and expertise, I am willing to guarantee you that they will know the answer or will know exactly where to find it.

Response by SSgt Michael Cox made Nov 18 at 2015 1:48 PM

SSgt Michael Cox — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:48:27 -0500

I would ask her what she did that destroyed her jeans and then ask if she would like to go to the store to get a new pair or if she had another pair in her luggage other than that if you are flying you want to blend in with the public so i think she looks appropriate. Every were i went while in AFSOC we wore blue jeans and sneakers unless we went to Germany then we wore timberland boot/shoe.

Response by CW3 Jim Norris made Nov 18 at 2015 1:52 PM

CW3 Jim Norris — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:52:06 -0500

Your not too old, nor old fashion. Business Casual is a defined, understood standard of dress. Unfortunately many of our young men and women have not been taught the rudiments of social conduct and behavior. Not your fault, The 1Sgt of the unit may want to address, or have another senior NCO (if the 1Sgt is not female) address several training sessions on dress, language, demeanor and civil conduct. Then have a male counterpart follow on with another set of conversations with the soldiers. Or vice versa.....the important part is the conversation and training.
It amazed me that things my father and mother taught, often with a peach switch when needed, are completely missing in these young people experience. Profanity comes to mind first and then dressing - our young men think that having their underwear hanging out is a fashion statement and the young women apparently have been taught that looking like a prostitute is appropriate attire for a civilian restaurant. I have two beautiful daughters whose mother carefully helped them understand that attractive and eye catching did not need to include near 'nipple slips', nor being about to see your rear end, or at the minimum count the freckles on it......both now incredibly successful businesswomen, mothers and still gorgeous. My son, a Highway Patrolman, never felt the need to display his underwear or advertise by the position of his trousers that he had been anally violated while in prison (ergo origins of 'the sag'). Now a husband, fathers and one of the sharpest looking Patrolmen in the state (OK, I am a bit prestigious in that judgement)

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 2:51 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:51:15 -0500

Chaplain, I would just wait until you're back on base and have a female associate of your talk to her about it. No harm will come that way, I wouldn't think.

Response by CPO James Page made Nov 18 at 2015 3:03 PM

CPO James Page — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:03:29 -0500

If you have a dress code for TDY travel and the person does not adhere to the code you write that person up for violating the dress code being explicit on how and when it was violated and turn your report in to higher authority for their action. You have then lived up to your responsibility as her senior.

Response by Barbara Coombs made Nov 18 at 2015 3:07 PM

Barbara Coombs — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:07:05 -0500

I would suggest referring to your written dress code policy. Then, I'd conduct internal training for both men and women defining "business casual" and "what is appropriate for what occasions." In all situations, it is best to address the issue in a timely manner and provide specific direction; when coaching employees about any behavior or situation, ALWAYS have another person in the room - not a subordinate or peer. As an HR veteran, I strongly urge you to handle the matter with the utmost professionalism and tact. If you don't have a dress code policy, now's the time to define it.

Response by PO3 Roy Roach made Nov 18 at 2015 5:52 PM

PO3 Roy Roach — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:52:27 -0500

Maybe suggest that all travel be in military attire for all who travel TDY!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 8:41 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:41:28 -0500

Again Sir, this is not a gray area situation nor is it a difficult problem to solve. Is there a standard? If no, establish one. If yes, enforce the standard. Doesn't matter who's male or female or who's what rank or position. Does she meet the standard or not? Everyone of us is responsible for enforcing standards, regs, policies, etc. It really is that easy.

Response by PO2 Marcus Waller made Nov 18 at 2015 9:59 PM

PO2 Marcus Waller — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:59:15 -0500

we all have to remember who and what we are representing, no matter what the function on or off base we are military 24-7. No matter where we go we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard, the reason why is we represent our country when we travel, i have had both male and female under me and correct both with the same demeanor.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 11:21 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:21:58 -0500

Nothing wrong whit the way she is dressed that I can see. For one thing you are suppose to blend in with the public and not look in any way like military . You may have a harder time with a high an tight hair cut ! If you are over bearing and shouting orders you set the stage as the target. Safety is the most important and keep a cool head you only get ONE. life don't screw it up. Drive on !

Response by SPC Brian Bay made Nov 19 at 2015 3:27 AM

SPC Brian Bay — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 03:27:51 -0500

How can you correct the issue? On the spot, you really can't without opening up yourself to looking like a complete idiot (best case) or facing UCMJ/Command Investigation (worst case). Not to be disrespectful or call name by any stretch of the means but let's look at this objectively.

If you're in the leadership role and any dress attire requirements were not already established then that's on you. I'm not reading anything that covers inappropriate/vulgar language on the clothing so let's leave that alone because that's a moot point.

The reality is that you're trying to address something based on YOUR opinion and what YOU want to see. To be honest, it's not your call. When I traveled for TDY we had specific instructions to NOT have any resemblance to the military (i.e. none of the US Army digi-cam luggage/sports bags), ID tags go in checked baggage along with Military ID, check-in with civilian driver's license and don;t draw attention to yourself.

I recall a trip from WA to Hawaii; flying out of Seattle, I wore board shorts (like swim trunks), t-shirt and flip flops. The folks that I was on the plane with, as far as they were concerned, I was a UW student on my way for a summer internship to study marine life or oceanography...or something like that...whatever it was that I made up.

Nobody was aware of the course that I was going to, my affiliation with the Special Operations community or security clearance. I kept a low profile and blended in with everyone else.

Now if I saw someone like you begin to comment/question someone much younger than you and of the opposite sex about their wardrobe choices, (keep in mind that you're both in civilian attire, sans rank insignia) there is a very high probability that my verbal and possibly physical intervention would be forthcoming. There would probably be some airport police interaction as well.

Not to mention the fact that you would lose any form of credibility/respect of the female subordinate and that's not good for either of you, but for lack of a better term, you'd look like a complete ass who micro-manages everything...don't be that guy.

Unless she's dressing like a full-on stripper/hooker (where she runs a legitimate risk of being harassed or attacked and it becomes a safety issue) leave it alone.

Response by Capt Ken McGill made Nov 19 at 2015 7:39 AM

Capt Ken McGill — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:39:50 -0500

There is nothing wrong with setting expectations for attire to and from the work assignment location. If the trip is being paid by your organization, setting standards for attire, regardless of age or gender, while traveling is no different than explaining expectations for any other workplace conduct or performance. At the least, appropriate business casual guidelines would be a good starting point. If your organization does not have business casual language, there are numerous resources where descriptions of acceptable dress can be used for your guidance.

Response by Cpl Robert Clark made Nov 19 at 2015 9:13 AM

Cpl Robert Clark — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 09:13:44 -0500

Discretion is the better part of valor.

Response by Capt Ken McGill made Nov 19 at 2015 12:27 PM

Capt Ken McGill — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 12:27:02 -0500

Perhaps I am a dinosaur, but I am astounded at the political correct mindset and the lack of moral courage that I see in these responses. Coaching subordinates is not predicated on the gender (sex) of the individuals. What is the right thing to do? Where is the leadership? Not much is shown in the responses I have read. Sad state of affairs.

Response by SGT Jay Ehrenfeld made Nov 19 at 2015 1:28 PM

SGT Jay Ehrenfeld — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 13:28:46 -0500

According to AR 670-1 the civilian attire suppose to be more respectful and tasteful . My best advice is get hold of EEO Officer in the BN level or Group level to get clear of the regulation of civilian attire.
another suggestion get her immediate supervisor and Plt. Sgt and Leader give her verbal warning and there is a section the in the regulation how the civilian attire is apply just remind her she is still in the military 24 hrs and UMCJ still in play while in civilian attire.

Response by COL Lawanda J. Holliman made Nov 19 at 2015 1:40 PM

COL Lawanda J. Holliman — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 13:40:13 -0500

CPT William Beaver an excellent topic you bring up here on business attire , even while TDY.

While I am retired, we are Soldiers 24 hours a day. We represent a brand as military professionals. As such, we should encourage all service members to be mindful of how the brand for the U. S. Military is represented. First and lasting impressions do matter.

A way to handle TDY travel is to ensure your unit is aware of what appropriate attire is for business travel. Regardless of gender, business attire is a viable option for doing work or travel for the organization.

For physical training , formal events , garrison and combat situations, we have specific attire requirements. TDY is similar. So, while you may have to define what "casual business " attire does NOT include, it is important to have the discussion (wisely).

The impressions that one gives representing the service matters. That message needs to be made clearly. I would not recommend you handle this alone. Talk in a group and allow others to ask questions about what may or may not be acceptable.

Hope that helps. I love the topic. Business etiquette skills are not a lost notion. They are critical while in, and as service members begin to transition from the military.

Lawanda J . Holliman

Response by SGT Jay Ehrenfeld made Nov 19 at 2015 3:10 PM

SGT Jay Ehrenfeld — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 15:10:06 -0500

AR 670--1 Chapter 3 page 15 3-9

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 19 at 2015 10:03 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:03:24 -0500

When she dresses like that, wear corduroy pants, polyester shirt, and members only jacket!

Response by Maj William Raney II made Nov 19 at 2015 11:32 PM

Maj William Raney II — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:32:28 -0500

Easy, you have already answered your own question. Simply tell the service member they are violating uniform regulations. I'm not educated on Army regs, but assume they are similar to USMC regs. If she is violating the regs for traveling on TDY orders, then go to her CO (if you are the CO, go to your boss, recommend battalion level, SGM or Commander) to discuss. I don't think Art 15 (NJP) is necessarily appropriate, but it certainly needs to be addressed.

Response by Col John "Coach" Allison made Nov 20 at 2015 2:03 AM

Col John "Coach" Allison — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 02:03:02 -0500

I just realized you're a chaplain. That explains EVERYTHING.

Response by CSM Stuart C. O'Black made Nov 20 at 2015 9:21 AM

CSM Stuart C. O'Black — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:21:13 -0500

Sir,
I would just address is straight on and with the professionalism and tact I know you have.
However, AR 670-1 does give some guidance. If all else fails you can always require the Soldier to wear the uniform (ASU/Class B or ACU) and then it will not be an issue.
Per AR 670-1 Para 3-7:
Personnel must ensure that the clothing worn is appropriate for the occasion and reflects positively on the Army. (See DOD 4500.54–G for information concerning mandatory wear of civilian clothing in foreign countries. The individual’s travel orders will reflect information authorizing wear of civilian clothing.)
*** Personnel on official travel and traveling by commercial travel means may wear the service uniform, the Army combat uniform, or appropriate civilian attire, unless restricted by the commander. (yes as stated the Commander can have a dress code policy for official travel and then all Soldiers will be following the same guidance with no favoritism or misinterpretations.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2015 10:08 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:08:56 -0500

If there is no dress code established you're kind of in a rock and hard place....AFI says "good taste" to broad spectrum. When I ran into this honestly I would just tell the female that I felt her attire was inappropriate and reminder her that we were on a military mission not a date or a night on the town and I, and I'm sure my wife, would personally appreciate it if they toned it down while around me. This of course got the usual "google eyes" and "wtf look" but 99% of the time they complied with my request if not for military reasons simply out of personal respect for me........the 1% we later found out was a reservist that we later found out was a stripper and truly had no appropriate clothes...but that's a whole other story.....good luck.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2015 12:26 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:26:27 -0500

Sir in the photo you present she doesn't look like a soldier, she looks like any young women, whats the issue she does not draw attention to the fact shes military, back in my early days we were told go unshaven, longer hair and no ID's

Response by LTC Kristina Williams made Nov 20 at 2015 3:54 PM

LTC Kristina Williams — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:54:12 -0500

Just tell her like it is....she's dressed inappropriately while on TDY. She's a Soldier 24/7 and should represent the military in a professional manner.

Response by SPC Christopher Perrien made Nov 20 at 2015 3:55 PM

SPC Christopher Perrien — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:55:25 -0500

Just Ask her to dress more conservatively on TDY Tell you are concerned that others might view y'all together the wrong way and it might affect the perception people have of your command/standing/whatever if other people notice or start talking about it.r. That would be honest, and I don't see an issue with it.

I take it , you may be scared and uncomfortable with this "girl" because she looks pretty or something. Don't worry about it. I had this same issue a long time ago with a male assitant manager I had, when I hired this Jenny McCarthy lookalike for a cashier (you talk about HOT and good for business :), anyway he was scared to talk to her because she was so beautiful and sexy, and he thought he would be walking into a sexual hass. case problem just by talking to her. , and your post really brought back that memory. I told him not to worry about her looks and just treat her as anyone else. You need to be able to communicate with your team freely anyway.

Tsgt. Logan's advice , might be an earlier starting point if you want to be admin about it.

On the flip slide, I once had a female supervisor that would get all hot and bothered when I got near her.LOL, and I just treated her like anyone else . :) , If you're wondering , No she would have never mentioned it, and was married , so I never broached the issue. Just kept things professional for those two years. Nice girl though.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2015 11:37 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 23:37:44 -0500

If she's on official travel, why isn't she in uniform ? Official means you're on duty. When on duty, we wear a uniform. Problem solved.
Maybe a hard ass solution but, it's an effective solution.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2015 12:58 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 12:58:10 -0500

In all politeness, bearing in mind that your judgement of what she wears no matter how correct you may be emanates from your one value system, not hers...so politeness is a must, and definitely not attacking her dignity, because just dressing in a way that is unappealing to you and majority of us is enough dent on her dignity, even if she doesn't know it or agree yet. After all said and done, generation gaps can interprete out judgement...good luck

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Nov 21 at 2015 1:22 PM

MSG Floyd Williams — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 13:22:06 -0500

CH (CPT) William Beaver... You made the right decision not to approach the female due to sexual harassment getting worst as times move on. I would ask a female Officer or NCO to accompany me to approach and talk to the soldier. Since it is your concern about inappropriate attire you do the talking and welcome input from whoever the female Officer or NCO with you, but things has changed so much and still changing I don't know if the Army has a policy about civilian attire during TDY Travel. Try looking out for her well fair approach so she wouldn't feel targeted, I hope this help and wishing you well.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2015 6:44 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 18:44:13 -0500

Just want to sake sir... Is this is a photo of your subordinate? And if so, was the picture posted with her permission?

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2015 6:44 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 18:44:51 -0500

Correction: ask not sake

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 21 at 2015 6:47 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 18:47:30 -0500

Shame her by wearing daisy dukes.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2015 7:26 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Nov 2015 07:26:19 -0500

first, know what the regulation says; second, what is your moral compass telling you; third, how will your decision affect the organization; and finally always seek advice before making a decision. The aforementioned is generic, but having a process helps in making the best decision when there is no right decision.

Response by MSG Alfred Aguilar made Nov 23 at 2015 1:00 AM

MSG Alfred Aguilar — Mon, 23 Nov 2015 01:00:43 -0500

Unless the individual traveling TDY is required by regulation or policy to dress a specific way, you can't say anything to her. Also if you take punitive action against her for what she is wearing as a civilian, she may have a legitimate IG complaint. I suggest you focus on her dress while she is in uniform only.

Response by SPC Ian Stewart made Nov 23 at 2015 7:53 AM

SPC Ian Stewart — Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:53:55 -0500

This sounds like another case of an officer making something that was previously simple, incredibly complicated. She's an adult. She can vote; she can buy liquor, guns, and land; and she can get shot at and/or killed in the defense of this great nation. She doesn't need someone to baby her all he time (Contrary to Army belief).

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2015 10:28 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Nov 2015 10:28:12 -0500

Is that really a pic of her? If that's her and you even have to ask how to correct that says a lot.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2015 6:33 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Nov 2015 18:33:41 -0500

No one can see any connection to the military in this pucture so who cares? I'd get it if her dress reflected upon the service but that isn't the case. Lighten up

Response by MSG Percy Johnson made Nov 24 at 2015 1:37 PM

MSG Percy Johnson — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:37:17 -0500

Capt. mind your own damn business. Nobody knows she is traveling TDY but you, so it is subjective for you to say what's appropriate civilian attire. As a formal EOA you need to avoid that situation.

Response by SGT Mairi Hawker made Nov 26 at 2015 8:02 PM

SGT Mairi Hawker — Thu, 26 Nov 2015 20:02:26 -0500

she obviously is comfortable in what she is wearing... she is traveling and wants to be comfortable. She isn't showing anything... she's young.... she looks fine to me

Response by CPL Aaron Cottingham made Nov 28 at 2015 8:18 AM

CPL Aaron Cottingham — Sat, 28 Nov 2015 08:18:50 -0500

A civilian on TDY? Why does attire matter to you that much.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 10:00 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 22:00:01 -0500

Have that supervisor talk to them if it is "not your lane". Though professionalism and SHARP is all our lanes. So if they don't address her then pull her aside but still in public area and say I feel that your attire is not in keeping with "blah blah's" standards (CSM or CG generally have some guidance of on post attire) and say you are still on duty, etc. Do not get into details or point/talk about her body or parts showing, but say "the policy says no tank tops or no blah blah..."

If you feel like it could be an issue ask a female that you both respect to address it for you. Try to avoid a big showing to avoid embarrassing her in front of others, but be cautious and protect both of you.

Response by SGT Bryan O'Reilly made Dec 31 at 2016 2:46 AM

SGT Bryan O'Reilly — Sat, 31 Dec 2016 02:46:32 -0500

You are correct to take action. In or out of uniform we are soldiers. That said, it's TDY and more relaxed but not that relaxed! Just mention it casually and remind her that you never know who you might bump into. And see if she takes corrective action. FYI, if you do bump into someone and you have not dealt with this it may reflect poorly on you.
Good luck, sir!

Response by SSgt Robert Dant made Jan 6 at 2017 10:41 AM

SSgt Robert Dant — Fri, 06 Jan 2017 10:41:07 -0500

Difficult problem as from the picture I do not see a big issue. The idea of tight pants and low cut tops does not appear an issue. Both those can be very judge mental. I think the holes in the pants bug me more as a military person. When I was in and travelled from Hawaii we were given a dress code to match our military attire when traveling. As men we run around on the beach in t-shirts and cut off shirts. No harm no foul. However when traveling for the Marine Corp we had a dress code.

Looking sharp was always the basis of that from our Comanding Officer.

In the absence of that and as an NCO I would put that policy in place an ask everyone to adhere to it.

Looking sharp when traveling as military is a must to show pride in what we do - always.

Response by LCpl Stephen Arnold made Jan 17 at 2017 1:13 PM

LCpl Stephen Arnold — Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:13:07 -0500

I've never seen this as a big deal; if she's reporting for duty I'd have a problem with it, of course, but traveling to her TDY location is not that big of a deal. Furthermore, as another young lady servicemember stated on this thread, she's a Soldier, you are a leader. You don't need to run to a female NCO/leader to have them deal with it. If you are afraid to address it because she's a female, I'd say you are the problem, not her. As an NCO I only consulted with female leaders when addressing a subordinate female if I had a question (uniform regulations, mostly). Other than that, they were Marines (then Soldiers as I switched to the National Guard) worthy of my respect as professional servicemembers.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2017 2:34 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 14:34:24 -0400

3–9. Civilian clothing
a. Civilian clothing is authorized for wear when off duty, unless the wear is prohibited by the Senior Commander. Commanders down to unit level may restrict the wear of civilian clothes by those Soldiers who have had their pass privileges revoked. Within the confines of a military base or a DoD installation, civilian clothing will be worn subject to local regulations.

b. When on duty in civilian clothes or off duty and outside of their personal dwelling, Army personnel will present a professional image that does not detract from the profession, unless specifically exempted by the commander for specific mission requirements.

c. Soldiers are associated and identified with the Army in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore, when civilian clothing is worn, Soldiers will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are commensurate with the high standards traditionally associated with Army service. Commanders are charged with determining and publishing the local civilian clothing policy. When on a military installation, civilian headgear will be removed indoors in accordance with established norms.

d. When civilian clothing has been authorized by competent authority for wear in a duty status in lieu of a uniform, the civilian clothing will be of the same comparable degree of formality as the uniform prescribed for such duty. Standards of dress and appearance will be conservative and meet the same high standards established for personnel in uniform.

e. The wear of clothing articles not specifically designed to be normally worn as headgear (for example, bandannas, do rags) are prohibited while on duty.

f. No part of a prescribed uniform, except those items not exclusively military in character, may be worn with civilian clothing.

g. Uniform items authorized for wear with civilian clothing by males are restricted to the gold cuff links, studs, tie bar, mourning band, footwear, socks, gloves, undergarments, black bow-tie, wool scarf, all-weather coat, fleece caps, and physical training uniforms.

h. Uniform items authorized for wear with civilian clothing by females are restricted to the white shirt without insignia of grade, footwear, gloves, handbag, clutch purse, wool scarf, all-weather coat, fleece caps, and physical training uniforms.

i. Uniform items that have been declared obsolete may be worn with civilian clothing, provided such items contain no distinctive insignia or buttons.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Feb 22 at 2018 3:54 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:54:08 -0500

Sir- If it is civilian travel and uniform is not required, then she can dress as she pleases and you have no say in the matter.

Response by SSG Thomas Jones made Apr 12 at 2018 5:54 PM

SSG Thomas Jones — Thu, 12 Apr 2018 17:54:00 -0400

While on travel if you were questionable clothing that makes you stand out then you become a Target

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Apr 12 at 2018 6:22 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Thu, 12 Apr 2018 18:22:09 -0400

1st I hope this is not an actual picture of the young lady for two reasons.
1. This would be publicly embarrassing to have the violation narrative and identification so public (praise in public, correct in private when the opportunity allows)
2. The method of civilian dressing is not so bad in this picture. It might be frowned upon in non-secular countries but it is representative of modern casual and fairly conservative clothing.
2nd if you feel there is an issue that needs to be corrected, you are a leader, personal courage is a value. Correct it yourself. Consulting with others to make sure you are correct in your assessment is a good step. If you feel uncomfortable doing it alone, bring a battle buddy. But be a leader and do it yourself.

Response by SPC Miguel Rosario Cruz made Apr 12 at 2018 7:14 PM

SPC Miguel Rosario Cruz — Thu, 12 Apr 2018 19:14:25 -0400

i think you stay out if a supervisor of you tell you not to get involve cause you may say something that she may find unappropiate and create a conflit later

Response by CW4 William (David) Craig made Jun 4 at 2018 9:47 AM

CW4 William (David) Craig — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 09:47:10 -0400

That discuss needs to happen in front of your group not singling out an individual. That way everyone is hearing the same thing. Regardless of the line of work you are in you should take pride in your appearance and somehow we have gotten away from that. Perhaps you should talk to your commander about putting out a directive as to what "proper attire" is for TDY travel.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2019 11:00 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Feb 2019 11:00:38 -0500

I really hope you didn't post a picture of her . If so , for the sake of your career you need to take that down.

Honostly, unless there is a strict regulation the defines what to wear on tdy then leave it alone. Typically units have a policy letter on civilian tdy travel. I know my last unit we had to be in collar shirts and slacks with no holes. If that doesn't exist its to easy for the command team to draft one up.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Aug 7 at 2019 2:17 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 14:17:43 -0400

The young lady in photo on the post is dressed in the manner folks of her apparent age range dress. I was never allowed to wear torn clothing because it made us "look Poor" so I'm not a fan of the style, but that lady depicted is "in style and keeping with current trends" Before chasing the rabbit down the hole look and see if the post you are on has a supplement to AR and DA Pam 670-1 or a policy letter that addresses the commanders view of appropriate off duty clothing.
Here's AR 670-1 take on it......
3–1. Personal appearance policies
a. Soldiers will present a professional image at all times and will continue to set the example in military presence, both on and off duty. Pride in appearance includes Soldiers’ physical fitness and adherence to acceptable weight standards in accordance with AR 600–9.
b. A vital ingredient of the Army’s strength and military effectiveness is the pride and self-discipline that American Soldiers bring to their Service through a conservative military image. It is the responsibility of commanders to ensure that military personnel under their command present a neat and soldierly appearance. Therefore, in the absence of specific procedures or guidelines, commanders must determine a Soldier’s compliance with standards in this regulation.
3–9. Civilian clothing
a. Civilian clothing is authorized for wear when off duty, unless the wear is prohibited by the senior commander. Commanders down to unit level may restrict the wear of civilian clothes by those Soldiers who have had their pass privileges revoked. Within the confines of a military base or a DOD installation, civilian clothing will be worn subject to local regulations.
b. When on duty in civilian clothes or off duty and outside of their personal dwelling, Army personnel will present a professional image that does not detract from the profession, unless specifically exempted by the commander for specific mission requirements.
c. Soldiers are associated and identified with the Army in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore, when civilian clothing is worn, Soldiers will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are commensurate with the high standards traditionally associated with Army service. Commanders are charged with determining and publishing the local civilian clothing policy. When on a military installation, civilian headgear will be removed indoors in accordance with established norms.
d. When civilian clothing has been authorized by competent authority for wear in a duty status in lieu of a uniform, the civilian clothing will be of the same comparable degree of formality as the uniform prescribed for such duty. Standards of dress and appearance will be conservative and meet the same high standards established for personnel in uniform.

The reg is vague so for an example the director published a policy letter because we work in both an office and field environment and frequently interact with local command teams and civilians as Engineer Techs we are authorized to wear jeans so we don't show dirt on our trousers, either a collared polo or button up shirt and for safety, steel or composite toed boots. Our clothing can not be torn or stained. This policy allows us to move from field to office settings and still present a professional appearance. So if the lady depicted was in our office she would not be in compliance with our clothing policy and You would be justified in telling her to change because she is out of compliance.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2019 8:31 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 08:31:00 -0400

Too late for the not say (write) something wrong part.
Is the travel considered "on duty?"
Chapter 3 AR 670-1 addresses the wear of civilian clothes on duty. It meets that standard, or it doesn't.
If you can't figure out how to address it, travel in uniform.

Response by SGT Nickolas Ortiz made Aug 9 at 2019 6:54 PM

SGT Nickolas Ortiz — Fri, 09 Aug 2019 18:54:10 -0400

Not sure what the issue is, if that is indeed a picture of the female in question. But I'm more worried a Commissioned Officer is spreading the picture of a subordinate around the internet! That's bad form, and actions unbecoming an Officer. You should take that picture, and any other attributed to your female staff, down.

Response by Lt Col John Buckley made Aug 10 at 2019 11:30 AM

Lt Col John Buckley — Sat, 10 Aug 2019 11:30:28 -0400

In today's politically correct world, you'll have to live with it. Unless you have a female subordinate who outranks this woman...or a female superior willing to address it...stop. Sorry. I would not want to have to deal with the stuff you deal with in today's military. Previously, when we focused on turning the enemies of the Republic into pink mist, or supporting those that do, and those were our only two priorities...it was easier. It seems to me that there are so many other even more important priorities today.

Response by SPC Clint Miller made Aug 10 at 2019 11:36 PM

SPC Clint Miller — Sat, 10 Aug 2019 23:36:29 -0400

Lighten up Francis, don’t nit pick somebody else when I’m sure you can also be called out for your actions or attire when you are on TDY. Don’t cast a stone unless your brick house is perfect.

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Aug 11 at 2019 12:49 AM

SSG Eric Blue — Sun, 11 Aug 2019 00:49:43 -0400

Depends on the unit standards and discipline outlined in whatever pamphlet or DA letter or memo governing that for the unit. If there is no such thing for your/her unit, I'd leave it alone. Places like the 82nd and 2ID in Korea will hurt your feelings over dressing like this on TDY. But that's there, not everywhere.

Response by SPC Nancy Greene made Aug 11 at 2019 12:59 AM

SPC Nancy Greene — Sun, 11 Aug 2019 00:59:54 -0400

I firmly believe proper civilian attire should be mandatory when going TDY. Remember you represent your Barack of the Military 24/7 while on active duty. With the car aziness and the metro me cement, I would suggest having a female ranking officer or Senior Enlisted have a casual conversation with this female. If her appearance doesn’t improve, then a counseling statement with another female present. If her civilian appearance doesn’t improve, maybe An Artical 15 is needed. She IS representing the US Military and her civilian attire seems TOTALLY unsatisfactory.

Response by CPT Daniel Cox made Aug 11 at 2019 3:01 AM

CPT Daniel Cox — Sun, 11 Aug 2019 03:01:56 -0400

Have your unit establish "Required Civilian Clothing Standards for TDY Travel".
Back in the Mid-1980's I once wore my standard travel uniform of dress slacks, collarless shirt (long sleeved T-shirt), and my sports jacket while travelling on TDY to a General Staff level conference where I was representing the TRADOC Commander, with several General Officers present. It wasn't that the outfit was particularly unprofessional (it was very popular after Don Johnson wore it on the TV series "Miami Vice"). The problem occured when the airline lost my luggage with my uniforms inside (they finally appeared three days later, an hour before I left to return to my station). Though no formal action was taken, the General opening the conference asked why I wasn't in uniform and at least one General and several others with higher rank called me Don Johnson or Crocket. It was that embarrassing situation that made me always carry a uniform as part of my carry on luggage the rest of the time I travelled TDY in civvies.

Response by SSG Dave Johnston made Aug 11 at 2019 10:59 PM

SSG Dave Johnston — Sun, 11 Aug 2019 22:59:54 -0400

Too bad you couldn't require "Business Casual" as TDY travel dress requirement, you are both still representing a 'Professional organization'

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Aug 11 at 2019 11:50 PM

PO1 Kevin Dougherty — Sun, 11 Aug 2019 23:50:35 -0400

I have to agree with MCPO Roger Collins on this. She could be any one of my nieces, all in the 20's and 30's. All very nice gals, most married, most highly skilled professionals, 1 Army wife, 1 cop wife, 2 firefighter wives, 1 pilot wife. 2 are nurse practitioners ... well you get the picture. That's not the way we dressed, but then again our parent's had the same issues with us.

Response by MAJ Vic Artiga made Aug 12 at 2019 12:25 PM

MAJ Vic Artiga — Mon, 12 Aug 2019 12:25:12 -0400

Leave it alone, captain. As long as she isn't doing anything illegal, immoral, or against regs she can do what and wear what she wants to. Frankly, if you are spending so much time on such an issue, you need to reevaluate your priorities.

Response by MAJ James Tate made Aug 12 at 2019 2:40 PM

MAJ James Tate — Mon, 12 Aug 2019 14:40:03 -0400

In the past, I’ve stated what dress is appropriate for TDY. If in civics I’ve stated “business casual” and defined exactly what I mean by “business casual”. If the TDY party is to be met at the airport upon arrival by a member of the unit/organization being visited it is important to make an impression that is appropriate for the business at hand. Remember, female or male makes NO difference. We’re all professionals in our line of work. If the person on TDY is driving to the location and will not report to the visiting unit/organization until after he/she has had a chance to change into appropriate attire then it makes no difference what they wear while driving to the TDY location as long as they are NOT reporting to that unit/organization first. This advice has paid off for me for the 33 years I served in uniform (20) and as a DOD civilian (13).

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Aug 12 at 2019 7:58 PM

SSgt Daniel d'Errico — Mon, 12 Aug 2019 19:58:27 -0400

Travelling under TDY orders in civilians clothes means you and this female subordinate are still representing the US military branch of your service. She must dress appropriate manner. You as her superviser need to discreetly inform her that she needs to dress accordingly, as described in the regulations. Yes military regulations do cover the appropriate dress in civilian clothes.

Response by CPL Sheila Lewis made Aug 13 at 2019 1:00 PM

CPL Sheila Lewis — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 13:00:26 -0400

"Pants that are too tight and tops that are too low "do not belong in any professional environment...and a senior female should explain this to the young female.

Response by SCPO Roger Martindill made Aug 13 at 2019 8:40 PM

SCPO Roger Martindill — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 20:40:56 -0400

If the issue wasn't addressed before TDY, hard to set a standard that has not been discussed.
Maybe get with the unit or work group and discuss it openly and see the overall reaction.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2019 11:58 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 23:58:51 -0400

Chaplain Beaver, my previous command was a 3-star command and it had a dress code clearly defined for both male/female soldiers and DAC (Department of Army Civilian). The policy was reviewed by JAG previous to implementation, but it stated that we represented the command, and when traveling on TDY orders we will abide by the approved dress code policy for TDY travel. No jeans with holes, no matter how fashionable or expensive they were, no t-shirt, nothing with political opinions or inuendos. Business casual, polo or buttondown shirts, no ball caps. If you violated this policy and someone reported you to the command, you would get a counseling training, remedial training, and no TDY for a while. The Marines, also have a similar policy that includes leave attire when departing the base. Bottom line, the TDY policy needs to come from your command and it should address male/female and DAC command standards for Travel when on TDY orders. Don't forget to run it pass JAG...

Response by SGT Donald Croswhite made Aug 14 at 2019 4:45 AM

SGT Donald Croswhite — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 04:45:04 -0400

Don't, leave it alone. She's tdy. You don't need that headache.

Response by PO2 Paul Bembry made Aug 14 at 2019 9:04 AM

PO2 Paul Bembry — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:04:12 -0400

leave it alone , it will work its self out with out you

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2019 6:49 PM

CAPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 18:49:17 -0400

The attire pictured is not acceptable.
Regulations across the services generally state that civilian clothes may be worn for travel in a duty status but they must be neat and professional in appearance. The intent has been to provide a "uniform equivalent" to appropriate uniforms for travel. In general, business casual has been the interpreted to be the equivalent. Over the years this evolved to the "collared shirt and Khakis" or "skirt/slacks and blouse" standard that is acknowledged as the civilian clothes "uniform." The Army and Air Force seem less strict about this; the Navy and Marine Corps more so. At no time has ripped or torn jeans ever been acceptable travel attire, especially on official business. Many commands have an appropriate civilian attire instruction or order that codifies these guidelines. Some of the services have policies too. As you appear to be Army, AR 670-1 and installation garrison commander policy is relevant.
I have had to correct those travelling with me in the past, both male and female. Word got around and I had no further issues. I published clear guidance when in command and had no problems. As a mentor an leader, you owe it to her to help her understand the standards and adhere to them.

Response by MSgt Walter Thomason made Aug 14 at 2019 9:48 PM

MSgt Walter Thomason — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 21:48:19 -0400

The only point in this debate, in my opinion, is that traveling on military official duty means that the person in command, is the authority on what is decent or not. Had the subordinate been on leave, then the choice of wear is hers alone. How to address is another thing in itself. It goes back to pick your battle. While it is possible to tactfully address the issue, is it really worth it since there is nothing to identify you as military unless you move to get on the plane ahead of everyone else. Finally, if addressing an issue that is written in regulations lead to fear of sexual harassment accusations, then we have really become weak as a nation. Truth, integrity, and honor have lost all meaning while lies, innuendo, sugar-coating, and mischaracterization (said, Political Correctness) is is paramount. All I can do is shake my head.

Response by SSgt Bill Glass made Aug 15 at 2019 12:43 AM

SSgt Bill Glass — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 00:43:42 -0400

Leave her alone care for yourself if she dresses out of your approval just remember you are not her parent.

Response by Maj Kim Patterson made Aug 15 at 2019 1:50 AM

Maj Kim Patterson — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 01:50:27 -0400

Look at the others of her age around you, watch what they wear. I find it incredibly insulting that you would judge her competence by wearing the only clothes she owns.

Response by SSgt Glenn Martin made Aug 15 at 2019 2:55 AM

SSgt Glenn Martin — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 02:55:42 -0400

Appearance and comfort has always been a major concern for
ladies I knew when traveling. I see nothing wrong with the
way this young lady is dressed. Most people don't like to travel
wearing suits or skirts. It's not like shes there to impress anybody.
Ever think she might feel the same way about the way you dress.

Response by SP6 Zz377zz . made Aug 15 at 2019 4:15 PM

SP6 Zz377zz . — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 16:15:46 -0400

She looks fine

Response by PO1 Earl Russell made Aug 15 at 2019 7:12 PM

PO1 Earl Russell — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 19:12:52 -0400

AD1 ret. I see nothing wrong with her attire.

Response by SFC Cynthia Eyer made Aug 16 at 2019 8:36 AM

SFC Cynthia Eyer — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 08:36:14 -0400

My idea is this... #1.) Why are you taking a photo of your subordinate and posting it on a social media site? That is absolutely the wrong answer AND a harassment perception. #2.) From the beginning of time women have been viewed and used as an instrument of man’s pleasure. That needs to stop. If men can’t hold themselves to the standard of professionalism they subscribe with demand from women, then they need to remove themselves—and this has absolutely nothing to do with attire. #3.) Her attire is perfectly acceptable and the very fact that you want to make her dress to YOUR standards (nothing anyone said here is regulated by military for dress code unless specifically outlined by command) means that perhaps you feel the need to continue the archaic teachings that women need to be controlled in order for men to control their own beings. It’s a sense of responsibility for oneself without pointing the finger at this or that from women.
You be you and allow others to be themselves. The psychology behind this entire question is a request to help you control another human being you seem needs to be controlled for your comfort. And yes, I’m a school trained, experienced therapist. I encourage you to seek why you need to control her and how she dresses, as this is a pattern learned and has not and will not be the focus of only this female soldier.

Response by SrA David Bradford made Aug 16 at 2019 10:24 AM

SrA David Bradford — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 10:24:22 -0400

Flying civilian, dress civilian. Especially in this day and age. Why mark yourself out as military in a soft civilian environment? She is wearing current, fashionable, clothing for the civilian world, in a civilian airport. Just leave it be. Unless your unit says military dress is required for travel, leave it be.

Response by SFC Tracy Scott made Aug 16 at 2019 2:04 PM

SFC Tracy Scott — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 14:04:55 -0400

Hmmm, what this boils down to is this, you are subjecting her to your standards of dress and appearance, the young lady in the photo is dressed to the current standards of civilian society, everything appears to be covered, I would have never taken a photo of her, nor would I have addressed the issue, unless she was exposing her self.

Now TDY travel attire can be addressed by the installation command as that would be on the front end of excepting the standards and guidelines for the TDY assignment travel of which would be in the format of a memorandum, and should have been reviewed at the time his or her TDY orders were provided to them by personal as this of course would be an addition to the standards of Ar-670-1.

Response by TSgt George Taft made Aug 16 at 2019 4:12 PM

TSgt George Taft — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 16:12:15 -0400

Dude are you serious? Mind you own business man. She has every right to wear what she's wearing. If YOU don't like it, look away. Dude don't create a problem for yourself. Leave that girl alone. She's doing NOTHING wrong. Jeeze we have enough REAL crap to concern ourselves with so we don't need to be trying to be the fashion police because we don't get what the young ones are wearing.

Response by TSgt George Taft made Aug 16 at 2019 4:18 PM

TSgt George Taft — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 16:18:23 -0400

Dude are you serious? Mind your own business. There's absolutely nothing wrong with what she's wearing. Is she doing her job? Is her uniform right WHEN SHE'S AT WORK? Leave her alone man. She has every right to wear what she's wearing weather you like it or not. We have WAY more important things to worry about than trying to be the fashion police because you don't like what the kids are wearing. She's not misrepresenting the military when she's off duty or traveling in civies. Relax bro. Let the girl be a girl.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2019 6:06 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 18:06:00 -0400

1. too tight? ehhhh im not so sure about that one.
2. Male SM's need to stop being so scared to correct a female. The attire is deemed appropriate or not by who? the commander. so ask the proper level's commander, if this is appropriate or not. there is your answer.
3. As a female NCO, I would tell her to not wear jeans with holes in them and to change now. Easy.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2019 11:33 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:33:01 -0400

Yea leave her alone I don’t see any issues here.

Response by SGT Thomas Seward made Sep 2 at 2019 6:49 PM

SGT Thomas Seward — Mon, 02 Sep 2019 18:49:40 -0400

Unless you’re looking for a sexual harassment complaint to the IG, you should let this be.
I actually had a company commander come down on me for wearing an earring in civilian clothes. I called Jag and the IG. The consensus was that if I’m in civilian clothes with nothing that identifies me as a soldier that it was none of his business that I wore an earring.
To ‘celebrate’ my ‘victory’ a bunch of the guys in my platoon told me that if I got a second earring hole that they would all get a first!
The early 80’s was a crazy time!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2019 6:52 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Sep 2019 06:52:21 -0400

Is there a policy letter that dictates dress code on TDY? If not then there is nothing.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2019 5:36 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Sep 2019 05:36:16 -0400

When you travel you are supposed to blend into your surroundings and not stand out. She looks like a regular traveler at the airport I dont see any issue here.There is a dress code when you are on liberty especially in regards when you are in a foreign country

Response by Capt Dwayne Conyers made Sep 7 at 2019 7:35 PM

Capt Dwayne Conyers — Sat, 07 Sep 2019 19:35:25 -0400

I just sit back and enjoy it...

Response by Lt Col Kevin Wyman made Oct 16 at 2019 2:50 PM

Lt Col Kevin Wyman — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:50:27 -0400

I would NOT single this person out. You might want to have a group meeting informing your subordinates that when traveling on official business even in civilian clothes, what your expectations are. Might want to prescribe business casual as acceptable clothing when on the "company dime".

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2019 3:58 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:58:51 -0400

If this is a photo if her, first..shame on you for posting her picture publically. Secondly, she is traveling and is not bringing attention to herself as if she was in the military. Good on her. If you have a problem with the civilian attire in this photo is it because its current fashion or you think she should be in a pantsuit for travel??? Have the commander put out what is appropriate in a published document. Period.

Response by PO3 David Henry made Nov 3 at 2019 10:56 AM

PO3 David Henry — Sun, 03 Nov 2019 10:56:28 -0500

Perhaps a pep talk to everyone under your authority about “dress for success”. Try to inspire them to strive to do better. In spite of current “fashion trends” not everyone looks like they found their clothes in a rag bag.
I recall Tom Landry, coach of the Dallas Cowboys, staying, when asked why his players wore business suits to travel to away games, “Our business is football, we are professionals, we dress like professional business men “.
It’s sad that adults need reminding of such matters.

Response by SSgt Robert Van Buhler III made Nov 3 at 2019 12:05 PM

SSgt Robert Van Buhler III — Sun, 03 Nov 2019 12:05:18 -0500

I'd say unless she was mixing it with uniform items, it probably isn't your place. You might end up on the wrong side of a harassment complaint. Hard ass attitudes just alienate. Positive reinforcement always works better. Find something to praise when she dresses well without putting down how she was dressed. Or best don't comment al all.

I once showed up at an on-base American Legion (Clark AB) for drinks with fellow NCOs (and a Captain and Major) most of us in civvies and a TSgt that a bit too much to drink ripped me a new one for wearing a bush jacket. He was an old brown shoe guy that just made Tech and was jealous it took me a lot less time to make E-5. The look of embarrassment on the faces of the other NCOs and Officers was remarkable. I just kept my cool and let him blow it all out. He looked bad and I looked good. We worked in the same office, and he apologized a week later. I suspect he may have been urged to do so by our shared Senior CMSgt.

For those who don't know or remember, a form of the bush jacket and shorts were once part of the USAF uniform. Long ago not authorized for duty wear. My bush jacket was not military issue, more like Banana Republic style.

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Nov 4 at 2019 2:03 AM

SPC Brian Stephens — Mon, 04 Nov 2019 02:03:04 -0500

Why say anything at all? If she can't wear her uniform while she is traveling and you won't buy her what you think is appropriate clothing then why say anything? Especially if once at her destination she will be back in uniform?

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Nov 5 at 2019 12:09 PM

SSG Gregg Mourizen — Tue, 05 Nov 2019 12:09:10 -0500

After viewing the pro and con posts, I will give you this one piece of advice. If you feel your subordinates are not dressing properly for TDY travel, then require that they fly in uniform. If you don't feel you can approach this problem directly, then take the indirect route and ensure that everyone dresses to the standard you set. As long as they are not traveling to a high risk area, there should be no arguments. Remember, if you set such a travel standard, then you will should travel in uniform as well. You can also set a formal dress code in your SOP's and unit guidelines, to motivate your subordinates to dress appropriately. Collared shirt, Pants with no holes, appropriate footwear. Ensure your NCO's push it down the chain of command, so all personnel are trained to your standard.

Response by SFC Barbara Layman made Nov 9 at 2019 6:35 AM

SFC Barbara Layman — Sat, 09 Nov 2019 06:35:52 -0500

After a bit of research, the answer is here: https://www.ar670.com/2018/12/21/when-the-wear-of-the-army-uniform-is-required-or-prohibited/

"a. All personnel will wear the Army uniform when on duty, unless granted an exception by the commander to wear civilian clothes. The wear of civilian clothing on duty is subject to the provisions of AR 700-84."

"b. Personnel traveling on Air Mobility Command (AMC) and non-AMC flights on permanent change of station (PCS) orders, temporary duty (TDY), emergency leave, or space-available flights, are authorized to wear civilian clothes. Personnel must ensure clothing worn is appropriate for the occasion and reflects positively on the Army. (See Department of Defense Foreign Clearance Guide (DOD 4500.54-G)) for information concerning mandatory wear of civilian clothing in foreign countries. The individual’s travel orders will reflect information authorizing the wear of civilian clothing.)"

Sorry, attire such as illustrated in the accompanying photo is out of line/inappropriate. Makes no difference what is acceptable in 'society.'

Note the date - Dec 21, 2018

When the Wear of the Army Uniform is Required/Prohibited - AR670.com

All personnel will wear the Army uniform when on duty, unless granted an exception by the commander to wear civilian clothes. The wear of civilian...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2019 9:30 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Nov 2019 09:30:05 -0500

I see nothing wrong with her clothing. Your traveling civilian airlines I assume? Why not be comfortable on the flight.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2019 8:23 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Nov 2019 20:23:45 -0500

Honestly you have no business making any comments on what she wears if civilian clothes are authorized. Do you look at everyone female and scrutinized how tight their clothing are? Maybe you do? Do you look at every soldier and scrutinized how tight their clothing is? You’d be lying to yourself if you said yes to that. Bottom line is this is wrong and the only one being unprofessional is you. You should be concerned about a Sharp or EO violation.

Response by SPC Christopher Davis made Nov 20 at 2019 11:24 AM

SPC Christopher Davis — Wed, 20 Nov 2019 11:24:06 -0500

The interpretation of her clothing is on you. If TDY-ing what's the big deal unless her behavior is unbecoming? Worrying about attire is indeed a antiquated way of thinking even for the military and seeks only to take away personal choices. Could it be you are attracted to her and feeling threaten others my notice her? Also, talking about women as if they are objects and don't possess the ability to my there own decisions is also a indication you don't live in the currently world. If the posted pic is her I don't see the issue. Those sexy knee's, sound like a weird fetish. This post is old but such thing really gets under my skin.

Response by Sgt Steve Williams made Nov 22 at 2019 4:50 PM

Sgt Steve Williams — Fri, 22 Nov 2019 16:50:41 -0500

Is that her picture? That top is certainly not low cut. I don't see anything inappropriate.

Response by SPC Chris Ison made Nov 24 at 2019 2:35 PM

SPC Chris Ison — Sun, 24 Nov 2019 14:35:04 -0500

So, there is defiantly a difference, in the civilian world, in what is appropriate for a woman to wear IN THE WORKPLACE, and what is considered business attire for men.

Men wear a suit jacket and tie. Women can wear a cocktail dress.

Part of this is because women do not have the equivalent to the leisure suit.

This comes from the fact that women have always, traditionally been more "covered up" than they are today.

Men stopped wearing formal clothing sometime in the early 1900's, and that attire was replaced by the leisure suit (what we refer to now as a business suit; both 3 and 2 pieces). Men stopped wearing this as formal attire in most workplaces in the 1980's. Now it is generally a pair of cotton twill trousers, tie, and a sport coat.

the pants are always too tight and the tops are too low cut.

This is an OPINION, and it can not be quantified in any real way. Basically you are saying she is dressing to "pretty" and yes it is old fashioned. And if you were to use those words, your ass would end up with a sexual harassment complaint, because that is what it is. The truth about what you are saying is simple, she made you uncomfortable, and now you want to lash out at her.

NO ONE, except you knows she is in the Military. The ticket agents have no idea that is government paid for boarding pass; And even if they did, they would be the only ones. As such their is no way she is giving the service a black eye with how she is dressed.

You are attracted to her GET OVER IT.

If she embarrasses you, don't travel with her, it is that simple. Stop making YOUR ISSUE, HER ISSUE.

Response by SFC John Fourquet made Nov 25 at 2019 10:32 PM

SFC John Fourquet — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 22:32:40 -0500

As someone who older than your subordinate your ideas of appropriate civilian attire are different than your younger subordinate. Just let it go. There is no need to make an issue of this. One other, did you use your subordinate’s photo in your post? You may want to discuss this with her if you did use her photo without her permission.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2019 8:30 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 Nov 2019 20:30:32 -0500

What's too tight? What's low cut? Skinny pants are very much part of the business attire for women. You can google "women business skinny cut pant", and you'll see. What's low cut? Can you see half of her chest? Just above nipple? Is she wearing an undershirt? Obviously holes in pants should be for personal time, not work.

Response by CPL Joseph Elinger made Dec 13 at 2019 12:49 PM

CPL Joseph Elinger — Fri, 13 Dec 2019 12:49:48 -0500

I'd clear with a Superior, the ok to have another * female soldier address the topic with her subtly & in private.
Too often dressing well vs dressing appealing aren't taught through home nor clique socialization.
I blame the reduced availability of "parental time" due to dual spouse careers, & single parent struggles.
In the end: " It (REALLY) takes a village," ie "Love thy neighbors as you love yourself."

Response by LTC Gregory d'Arbonne made Dec 17 at 2019 6:48 PM

LTC Gregory d'Arbonne — Tue, 17 Dec 2019 18:48:27 -0500

When I was still new to the Army I was advised that if I was going TDY someplace and I wore civilian clothes, dress like your luggage got lost and the clothes you have on are what the customer is going to see you in. Best advice I got as it happened a few times and I was appropriately dressed to meet with the chain of command or Soldiers. A coworker used to wear "day-glow" shorts and other "loud"clothes when he traveled...and when his luggage got lost, he had to go out and buy appropriate clothes so he could do his work.
If your coworker is comfortable doing her job in the clothes she is wearing in the picture I would be surprised. Maybe she will understand to dress a little better if she knew her luggage might get liost in travel. Just a suggestion.

Response by TSgt David Olson made Dec 19 at 2019 11:38 PM

TSgt David Olson — Thu, 19 Dec 2019 23:38:39 -0500

For what it’s worth, the services need to take a page from the past. When I was in the Army, 1963-66, any travel on official business, the appropriate uniform would be worn.

Response by SFC Mark Bailey made Dec 21 at 2019 5:28 PM

SFC Mark Bailey — Sat, 21 Dec 2019 17:28:09 -0500

Nothing wrong with this persons attire at all
There is nothing anywhere that says we control what one of our people wears off-duty, unless it is a direct reflection of our branch of service or the military in an open setting. For instance we can say that wearing a partial military uniform out of an office or military setting.
For it to be beyond the improper wearing of a military uniform, we would have to be readily identifiable to ANYONE that we are in the US Military. This picture does not show anything but a person smiling wearing what is considered "normal" to anyone else out there.
Leave her alone, let her dress how she wants to and apply your social values to the person you are staring at in the mirror...that person is the only person you get to dress up on your personal time.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2019 10:05 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Dec 2019 22:05:09 -0500

First of all, I don’t consider the outfit that she’s wearing to be particularly offensive. But, that’s not the point. Do you have a clearly written dress code for civilian dress or travel? If the answer to that question is no, then you have no platform to substantiate correcting a subordinate. If you do have a dress code for civilian travel, Open it up read it and discuss it with the soldier.

Response by SSgt Rebekah Bradfield made Dec 24 at 2019 10:44 PM

SSgt Rebekah Bradfield — Tue, 24 Dec 2019 22:44:37 -0500

I would get a second opinion from a female you trust to be fair but tough with the subordinate in question. I have seen far too many military members behave and dress is ways that bring discredit on our military. Whether you are traveling for work or even on vacation, people will associate the way you behave with their perception of our armed forces. I don't even care for civilians in clothes that are tight or too revealing. Modesty seems to be a thing of the past.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2019 8:39 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Dec 2019 20:39:48 -0500

Times have sure changed. This type of dress would have been given at a minimum Article 15 if not a Courts Martial as all official travel was to be done in class A dress Uniform unless you were an investigator for CID and authorized civilian clothes as your duty uniform. What has happened to the Military Standards. I am glad that I am not the military now!

Response by MSgt Jesse Tiede made Dec 29 at 2019 5:51 PM

MSgt Jesse Tiede — Sun, 29 Dec 2019 17:51:37 -0500

Sorry, Padre', but, this is what attractive young women wear, tight pants and low cut blouses! I don't see either one in the picture, though. Nothing wrong here, even with the knees ripped out! Best advice to you is to just enjoy her company, and, if you enjoy the view, Sir, keep it to yourself! But, having said that, maybe you could explain it to her, like you did here, and see what she has to say.

Response by SSG John Harding made Dec 30 at 2019 6:31 PM

SSG John Harding — Mon, 30 Dec 2019 18:31:44 -0500

Ar670-1 is a guidance when officers try to in force it they do not read correct guidance witch at 670-1 provides this should be left up to nco to educate a officer how to correctly go about this sounds like officer had nothing better to do?

Response by CDR Jerry Wells made Jan 6 at 2020 8:39 PM

CDR Jerry Wells — Mon, 06 Jan 2020 20:39:49 -0500

The Master Chief is correct as they usually are, leave it alone. She is not dressed inappropriately by today's standards. It may not be to your standard but she is clean, neat and well groomed. Nothing to point fingers at when in the traveling situation. Now at work this would not be appropriate attire and require action. You are not the one to do the correction, it needs to come from a senior.

Response by SFC Stephen Scott made Jan 14 at 2020 6:55 PM

SFC Stephen Scott — Tue, 14 Jan 2020 18:55:02 -0500

If that's her in the photo. I would never guess she was military, but, most young soldiers will dress as their peers dress. Personally I would leave it alone. There used to a dress code on army posts and that code was dictated any DA. It was enforced by what was called "Courtesy Patrols", they stopped inappropriately dressed individual in uniform or in civilian dress and addressed the issue with them. And their names and rank went to their unit commanders. Haven't anything in over 20 years about dress codes of civilian dress.

Response by PO1 Amy Kauten made Jan 17 at 2020 11:38 AM

PO1 Amy Kauten — Fri, 17 Jan 2020 11:38:19 -0500

If this picture is her, there needs to be guidelines for TDY dress. I feel this is totally inappropriate. These are beyond ripped for blue jeans. These jeans need to go in the trash. I actually think no skin showing on the legs above the knees, no midrif skin and maybe even covered shoulders/chest. This is after all a business trip.

Response by Sgt Leonard Lamb made Jan 18 at 2020 7:38 PM

Sgt Leonard Lamb — Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:38:13 -0500

MYOB... Girl gotta gotta put up with crap like this everywhere... be a brother not a bother...

Response by Sgt Leonard Lamb made Jan 18 at 2020 7:40 PM

Sgt Leonard Lamb — Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:40:49 -0500

MYOB... Be A Brother not A Bother

Response by SSG Michael Doolittle made Jan 27 at 2020 1:06 AM

SSG Michael Doolittle — Mon, 27 Jan 2020 01:06:58 -0500

Leave it alone, fashion is an individual choice, as long as she show up in the proper uniform for work...

Response by SPC Carl Hockett made Jan 30 at 2020 7:30 PM

SPC Carl Hockett — Thu, 30 Jan 2020 19:30:39 -0500

The degree to which the jean's are ripped... correct that... shredded is what I'd call over the line. And that's assuming she's just travelling and not going to be seen by anyone related to job, duty or anything of the sort.

Response by Maj John Bell made Jan 31 at 2020 1:28 PM

Maj John Bell — Fri, 31 Jan 2020 13:28:15 -0500

If the command has not issued policy on civilian attire, you probably don't have a leg to stand on. That said... Her attire reflects on those traveling with her. (The whole birds of a feather thing.) I see nothing wrong with telling her just that and removing yourself from her vicinity while in civilian attire you consider inappropriate.

I don't think a complaint of "He avoids my company when my pants are too tight and my tops are cut down to there" is going to get much traction.

Response by LCDR Mike Morrissey made Feb 1 at 2020 2:11 PM

LCDR Mike Morrissey — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 14:11:44 -0500

While not directly addressing dress standards, I thought I'd share the following vis a vis male and female.

My wife and I married in 1973. She was a Ltjg and I a LT. She was with the Phibbase Coronado and I was with ACU-1. She was the first female officer assigned to the base and her CO was a great guy. A little while later, I was given an additional duty of integrating all our LCM-8s & 6s and LCVPs and crews with the base's. With that came a sudden influx of women enlisted, everything from admin to engine types. They really worked hard. However, right before they arrived, I had instructed my division officers and E7-9s to watch the language. (My wife thought that was a bit humorous.)

About 2 weeks into the full ramp up and while in my office, I heard feminine voices light-off. I got up and poked my head around the corner, silence took over, I glanced around, looked at our E-9 and said something to the effect that "Govenors are now unrestricted, but decorum in my office will be maintained by all." Laughter ensued.

For my wife, a different story. Around that time, male CPOs newly assigned female enlsited would come up to her about "that time of the month" and related stuff. She said that she would not get involved. Treat very one the same. But advised that if a claim of not being able to work is the issue---go to sickbay. Actually, the percentage of male vs female sickcall real slackards were running the same.

Response by Cpl John King made Feb 1 at 2020 4:50 PM

Cpl John King — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 16:50:05 -0500

Unless they're trying to get into a facility on base... I'd leave it alone. Not everyone is 'professional' 24/7. Nor should they have to be, within reason. If it fits within the current fashion trend, and is okay for the mall... it's probably ok.

Response by PO2 Dale Brown made Feb 2 at 2020 5:42 PM

PO2 Dale Brown — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 17:42:36 -0500

Don’t see anything wrong in this photo, sounds like an attitude issue that needs adjustment

Response by CW3 Susan Burkholder made Feb 4 at 2020 9:30 AM

CW3 Susan Burkholder — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 09:30:57 -0500

Is this for real? A man called Beaver is questioning a lady’s right to choose her own outfit? (It’s somewhat ironically humorous) All, while worrying if he might be accused of sexual harassment because gosh darn it he just wants to do the right thing and only has everyone’s best interest in his super huge heart.

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made Feb 9 at 2020 11:33 PM

LCpl Cody Collins — Sun, 09 Feb 2020 23:33:38 -0500

If the way she is dress is making you on comfortable you have just as much right to let her know that along the same principles if a female feels uncomfortable around you for some reason she has a right to let you know you are making her feel uncomfortable there is allow about personal space. If you to have to travel together and she's Half naked every time you guys travel together you need to let her know That as long as she's within your personal space you would prefer her to cover up more so as nothing can be misconstrued if you decide to turn your head and look in her direction she can't think you're Undressing her with your eyes even though she's already half way there. I've worked with people and for motor company they will let you know about their personal space you could not just walk up to them and start a conversation you had to stand a little bit pass arms length away from them and hold the conversation. And I've seen in a workplace where a female has some official papers or documents she wants a male counterpart to come look at, And when the Male coworker comes over and stands behind her to read when she had in her hand she felt very uncomfortableAnd adjusted her position or handed him the papers to read for himself. She felt he violated her personal space even though she called him over to her to go over the documents. The man did not get in trouble she did not Report ham but when talking at lunch she began to explain how she does not like people to violate her personal space. Also people need to remember whatever mode of transportation you use while traveling TDY that is an extension of the workplace.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2020 12:45 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 12:45:13 -0500

Chaplain, I sure hope that you got her permission to post this picture of her on this sight! If not, you need to remove it

Response by Lt Col Jp R. made Feb 12 at 2020 11:21 PM

Lt Col Jp R. — Wed, 12 Feb 2020 23:21:23 -0500

What is inappropriate if that's her in the pic? She looks like every other girl under 30. Is there a regulation or policy for travel dress that you think she's not following? If so that's your guidance. Other than that; you're outside your swim lane as she is your subordinate in civilian clothes not your daughter. Unless her dress is compromising the mission or affecting her performance what she wears out of uniform is her business. Caveat I'm going by the picture and your comments and admit I likely know less than 5% of what it is your asking.

Response by PO1 Marsha Hinshaw Kincaid made Feb 17 at 2020 2:47 PM

PO1 Marsha Hinshaw Kincaid — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:47:59 -0500

Have a female discuss the issue... I had to and it turned out fine.

Response by SPC Jon Walker made Feb 18 at 2020 7:42 AM

SPC Jon Walker — Tue, 18 Feb 2020 07:42:41 -0500

As I understand your question, you are seeking guidance how to correct wearing questionable attire.

If true, you should reference your attire code for travel to determine if violation exist.

If no code or policy exist, you are permitted to discuss the importance of professionally appropriate attire while traveling.

The concern many have is gender based attire policy. Again, if no policy exist or attire code - feel free to have the conversation but do not use gender terms in your conversation.

Example only- one of the things we would to create is a professional attire culture while traveling. In your view, (asking the person in question) what do you think that should look like? Listen and pay attention to their response.

You may get the desired outcome without never calling them out specifically. If you are still concern, call a team meeting with all and ask the question to the group. You may find they will help you draft agreed upon business travel attire cultural.

In closing, it may be misunderstanding by the subordinate what time business travel starts and ends. You may want to be mindful or reinforce the start and end of the business travel period

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made Feb 18 at 2020 11:52 PM

SSG Gerhard S. — Tue, 18 Feb 2020 23:52:55 -0500

One could simply mind one's own business. No need to make this one's own problem.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2020 11:43 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 11:43:22 -0500

Find your unit's blue book. There should be a definition of appropriate civilian dress outlined for males and females in it. Find that and correct solely on the verbage in the book.

Response by PO1 Todd McMillin made Feb 25 at 2020 8:23 AM

PO1 Todd McMillin — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 08:23:39 -0500

The ripped jeans is a very unprofessional look in general and tacky. The military often tries to maintain the same look as when they're off-duty and looking like they're still some kind of professionals khakis and a polo shirt in most cases while TDY. I have to afresh with MCPO Collins below in the same argument of unless you knew she was a service member you have no reason to bother her.

I do get the reason why some service members prefer to dress more casual in the public to blend in and not be seen as a possible target for various reasons including terrorist targets or other predators as well.

Remember looking like a service member while traveling in these times can put a target on your back as well. Those who aren't supportive of the current "War of/on Terror" may see a service member as a target of opportunity to assault or exploit. Since I see the issue as we need to get out of these back yards we don't belong in and fix our own nation's issues first before being the "World Police".

Response by SFC Louis Willhauck, MSM, JSCM, and ARCOM made Mar 6 at 2020 9:38 AM

SFC Louis Willhauck, MSM, JSCM, and ARCOM — Fri, 06 Mar 2020 09:38:51 -0500

Well, these days she probably paid more for those clothes than most of us pay for ours.

Response by PO1 Lyndon Thomas made Mar 6 at 2020 11:15 AM

PO1 Lyndon Thomas — Fri, 06 Mar 2020 11:15:49 -0500

Seek the advice of a senior female counterpart FIRST> Society Rules and Regulations have changed and so much can go wrong especially since she's in civilian attire. The military as a Whole has changed dramatically over the years. I had a similar incident happen and I'm giving you the advice that was given me by a much senior NCO. Wish you the best.

Response by LTC Drew Byrd made Mar 6 at 2020 4:25 PM

LTC Drew Byrd — Fri, 06 Mar 2020 16:25:43 -0500

You are officially authorized to council ANY Soldier, under general military authority, on their appearance for flights during permanent change of station orders, temporary duty (TDY), emergency leave, or space-available flights. Just as an Army Officer could correct a Marine Sergeant for not saluting, you can verbally council ANY military under general military authority in this case.
As noted from the Army reg below, "Personnel must ensure that the clothing worn is appropriate for the occasion and reflects positively on the Army." Tightness is a tough one, but showing too much skin should be easy to stop. We would never allow a male Soldier to wear a cut-off shirt on a plane for TDY. The same goes for women!

REF: Army Regulation (AR) 670–1 • 25 May 2017
3–7. Required or prohibited wearing of the Army uniform
Note. This paragraph is punitive with regard to Soldiers. Violation by Soldiers may result in adverse administrative action and/or charges under the provisions of the UCMJ.
b. Personnel traveling on Air Mobility Command and non-Air Mobility Command flights on permanent change of station orders, temporary duty (TDY), emergency leave, or space-available flights are authorized to wear civilian clothes. Personnel must ensure that the clothing worn is appropriate for the occasion and reflects positively on the Army. (See DODD 4500.54E for information concerning mandatory wear of civilian clothing in foreign countries. The individual’s travel orders will reflect information authorizing wear of civilian clothing.)
c. Personnel on official travel and traveling by commercial travel means may wear the service uniform, the ACU, or appropriate civilian attire, unless restricted by the commander.

Response by SFC Charles Dennis made Mar 6 at 2020 4:51 PM

SFC Charles Dennis — Fri, 06 Mar 2020 16:51:27 -0500

I would call JAG and ask them and read AR 670-1/700-84. You should also check your installation command policies. Once you have done your research, you can make an informed on-the-spot correction and reference which (if any) regulation(s) the Soldier is violating.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2020 10:00 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Mar 2020 22:00:00 -0500

Write an SOP, and pass it through JAG and the EOA.
Otherwise, here is what some may hear you saying and infer:
By you "want to see more conservative clothing," do you mean more modest? See image (if it will attach)
Why do you believe the pants are too tight? If it were Army dress uniform pants, would the "tightness" be excessive?
Why do you believe the blouse is cut too low?
Too tight and too low for who?
Your conservative dressing standard for women is your personal standard, and that's where you need to keep it.
If you don't like tight pants, get over yourself. Same for conservative style.
Professional, now there is something that can be addressed, and the only thing that need be addressed by you. The EOA Office and JAG are your best sources.
As an ANCOC SGL, one or two time per cycle, the students would raise money by having a civilian clothes day. I vividly recall a female SGM holding a professional development discussion with one or two female student regarding their clothing choices. No, there weren't any shorts, or low cut tops. It was form fitting dresses.

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Mar 7 at 2020 1:39 AM

MAJ Matthew Arnold — Sat, 07 Mar 2020 01:39:07 -0500

I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. I might try a run around. Talk to a peer or senior who is female and her if she thinks she would be willing to say something to the younger soldier. Sometimes the women are harder on their sisters than men are.

Response by TSgt Gerald Wilson made Mar 8 at 2020 11:42 AM

TSgt Gerald Wilson — Sun, 08 Mar 2020 11:42:15 -0400

Good thing the person in the photo is an example and not your actual subordinate because otherwise, you'd definitely be out of line. As to the clothing, it's neither indicative of military affiliation nor is it suggestive of anything other than her generation. She blends in which is actually good OPSEC. Leave it alone or you'll just exacerbate the already vicious generational hatred that exists in our culture - that being a bad way to lead. Also worth considering: you could have a male subordinate wearing modern business attire which is MUCH worse - brown jackets cut for an 8-year old, high-water pants, and wizard shoes. Yikes.

Response by CPO Arthur Weinberger made Mar 8 at 2020 4:32 PM

CPO Arthur Weinberger — Sun, 08 Mar 2020 16:32:17 -0400

If what she is wearing does not identify as being in the service; leave it alone.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2020 7:06 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Mar 2020 19:06:36 -0400

I don't know about the Army, but that is definitely not acceptable civilian attire in the Marines. TDY travel or not. It's a simple leadership issue. She's in the wrong, tell her. You don't have to yell or holler. Simply put, "You're out of regs, please fix it ASAP".

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2020 8:46 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Mar 2020 20:46:29 -0400

Appropriate civilian attire is subjective and relative. Some people think an attractive young lady wearing leggings is inappropriate, while others would say it's not. That being said, there's a general understanding of grossly inappropriate attire, for males and females alike.

I saw the update that the regimental CSM had a face to face. That's all good, but if that CSM's idea of inappropriate is super conservative, the "problem" isn't fixed. That CSM will leave eventually. Who's to say the next CSM won't be more relaxed? Again, it's subjective.

I guess my point is, the rules/opinions on civilian attire while TDY is ultimately up to that command group, but there's a fine line between "squaring folks away" and being unreasonable.

Response by SSG David Kaelin made Mar 8 at 2020 10:56 PM

SSG David Kaelin — Sun, 08 Mar 2020 22:56:39 -0400

I would say it depends.

Was a dress code put out in advance? Is there a dress code? Have you told everyone to dress in appropriate professional attire. (I.e., Collared Shirt, slacks, etc.)

If you tell your people to come dressed for work and they come dressed for the club, you've got a complaint. If you said nothing about dressing appropriately, you may have an issue.

Some people in the military have never had a job outside of the military and may not have any idea what business like civilian attire is.

Give a class on it and put out a travel SOP. For example, no holey clothes, no jeans, tucked shirt, etc.

Response by SMSgt Billy Cesarano made Mar 9 at 2020 9:57 AM

SMSgt Billy Cesarano — Mon, 09 Mar 2020 09:57:10 -0400

Seems like if this is bothering you you don't have enough to do. I don't know what your position assignment is or security level but, in my case, I preferred to keep my affiliation to myself when traveling. Silently shaming might work. Looks to me you are traveling with your daughter. Go with that. If you are still uptight about her dress, it still fits the appearance of father/daughter. You could also quietly dress in a suit and tie for travel if you aren't already. That may present a somewhat different appearance, equally inaccurate I assume, however. There is the old tried and true method of resolution... just talk to her and see if you can come to an agreement that involves her thoughts on the subject and your professional observations. She could also be attempting to entrap you. You could therefore request to your supervisor she be replaced.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2020 10:36 AM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Mar 2020 10:36:52 -0400

I've never heard of "questionable" travel attire, but I have heard of "business casual" travel attire. That's literally beaten into my head every time i go TDY. Maybe I come from a different Army, but if you couldn't be trusted with business casual, your Class As were now your travel uniform.

Response by Col Keith Maresca made Mar 9 at 2020 10:44 AM

Col Keith Maresca — Mon, 09 Mar 2020 10:44:46 -0400

Ripped up jeans are the fashion trend, like it or not. I would prefer that she dressed "better" and more professionally, but frankly I would not make anything of it. She is not wearing anything which is derogatory, obscene, or highlights her as a potential terrorist target. It is also important, I should mention, to take into account where is she going. That attire might be wrong for her destination and bring "discredit". A commander could very well put out a policy letter stating what the civilian clothes expectations are when traveling in an official capacity.

Response by SSG David Kaelin made Mar 9 at 2020 1:52 PM

SSG David Kaelin — Mon, 09 Mar 2020 13:52:49 -0400

As an NCO or Officer in the United States Army or any other Branch, I should be able to treat all soldiers (etc) pretty much the same when it comes to these kinds of things. However, if one were to broach a subject to a female and do not do so in a way that my superiors and the PC Police believe is politically correct, one can face serious negative consequences. Even if one is correct and in the right.

That is the reality.

If a female alleges that a male has sexually harassed them, that male's career is likely over or, at the least, going to take a hit. That is a reality.

Some of the responses in this thread prove that.

If a male shows up on TDY with holes in his jeans and a tight fitting tank top, there is no way that someone is not going to say something to him. If a female shows up in tight fitting jeans with holes in her jeans with a tight fitting off shoulder shirt or tank top, there is all of this argumentation and debate (word or sentence feud...lol) about it. It's a debate or the male leader should have a female leader confront the situation.

Another question that I have is why the hair disparity. If males must have short hair, why are females allowed long hair. If males have their heads shaved in Basic or Boot Camp, why do females not have their heads shaved in Basic/Boot Camp. If females can wear neutral shades of finger nail polish, who can males not do so. If females can wear simple earring studs, why can males not do likewise.

The standards should be exactly the same.

Response by SSG David Kaelin made Mar 9 at 2020 2:14 PM

SSG David Kaelin — Mon, 09 Mar 2020 14:14:36 -0400

I just realized that this is over a year old. lol

Why did it pop up in an email from RallyPoint as "something that might interest me"?

Well, now I know to check dates. WTH!

Response by PO2 Paul Dempsey made Mar 9 at 2020 3:09 PM

PO2 Paul Dempsey — Mon, 09 Mar 2020 15:09:06 -0400

The times and dress are ah a changing. What you wore 30 years ago most likely would seem inappropriate to someone 30 years your senior than. Airlines do have a dress code for passengers. I would leave it alone. Let her be young and happy in her off time. Concentrate on her duty performance if in her chain of command. I'm 62 I get your point but as learned raising my kids the times they are ah changing.

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Mar 9 at 2020 4:13 PM

SMSgt Bob Wilson — Mon, 09 Mar 2020 16:13:50 -0400

A TDY is an on duty comment. If the clothing are offensive or "...reflects a negative view of the military..." the person should be asked to change or reported to higher officials. I recently worked or a company and we could NOT fly in jeans. We did not have to wear a tie. Shirts could be button-up or polo.

Response by MSgt James Slawson made Mar 9 at 2020 5:38 PM

MSgt James Slawson — Mon, 09 Mar 2020 17:38:55 -0400

Anytime you are TDY you are still on government orders but you should have been briefed on the local attire for where you are so you blend in. If ripped jeans and short tops are not allowed that needs to be addressed before the TDY.

Response by CAPT Kevin Mooney made Mar 9 at 2020 10:42 PM

CAPT Kevin Mooney — Mon, 09 Mar 2020 22:42:55 -0400

Had a command where I was the senior military amidst a lot of civilians. Had a number of very athletic current and prior military young woman. Senior civilians had a lax sense of dress when visitors were not expected. I was in uniform of the day, every day. Several of the young women initially took their lead from the senior civilians. Eventually, I met with several of the young women, one on one. It really came down to one question, with one sentence that put the question in context. "You know that the civilian leadership has spent a lot of years to get where they are and that meant a lot of working hard to demonstrate that they could represent their commands appropriately at all times. When you select your clothes each day, whether here or on travel, are you thinking about being comfortable and following the example of our leadership on their more casual days or about demonstrating that you are a person who can represent the command well, at increasing levels of responsibility, no matter the setting?" Never had to have a second chat with any of them. And later overheard one of them giving similar advice to a new arrival. Guess it stuck.

Response by CMSgt Jay Pine made Mar 9 at 2020 10:47 PM

CMSgt Jay Pine — Mon, 09 Mar 2020 22:47:08 -0400

Guess I’m missing something! I don’t see a low cut shirt or pants that are too tight. All I see is a woman wearing jeans with holes in them. Is that really an issue? Pretty much the style these days.

Response by SFC Craig Vaughn made Mar 10 at 2020 4:11 AM

SFC Craig Vaughn — Tue, 10 Mar 2020 04:11:53 -0400

This type of outfit is common among younger people today. If you are uncomfortable with the torn jeans look (I am assuming that is the issue) then just let her know that it makes you uncomfortable to see this look while traveling on official duty. Don't tell her she can't wear it unless you want an uncomfortable situation and possibly other problems as well. Just let her know you would like your group to present a professional appearance during travel. You can joke and tell her it makes you think the Army doesn't pay her enough.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2020 6:33 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Mar 2020 06:33:55 -0400

If a specific dress code was put out then why would you as the OIC not feel comfortable addressing it. At the end of the day whether they be male or female they are a soldier, if there is an issue they are addressed and counseled the same. If they are wrong then they are wrong. 4856 is the same either way.

Response by SSG Alfred Woods made Mar 10 at 2020 11:46 AM

SSG Alfred Woods — Tue, 10 Mar 2020 11:46:09 -0400

Should a supervisor need to address the wear and appearance of a soldier, while in civilian clothing to member(s) of their unit, it should be done as a whole and a counseling form may need to be signed by every member, indicating the have received and understands what is expected and if there's any questions, they should be answered at that time. If a subordinate refuses to follow the guide\counseling as stated, then the subordinate should be summoned with his\her chain of command, for corrective measures. As for the photo shown, no one would or should have a concern, as long as its not showing anything that maybe considered provocative. However, had this soldier been a supervisor and her subordinates saw her in this manner, their attensions to wear and appearance of clothing may become a bit challaging and question the limits of being proffesional in and out of uniform.

Response by Cpl David Bientz made Mar 10 at 2020 10:54 PM

Cpl David Bientz — Tue, 10 Mar 2020 22:54:20 -0400

I can't say I like the fashion statement she's making in this photo, yet in today's environment, things being what they are, she blends in with many of her fellow travelers making it a more safe method of concealment. I've been out of the Marine Corps over 50 years, we traveled in uniform and paid a price for it at airports, etc. In today's environment, violence is not above developing. I say don't get your panties in a wad over it. It's 2020 and nothing I'm aware of in the UCMJ addresses it. Let it go.

Response by SGT Doug Prescott made Mar 11 at 2020 12:50 AM

SGT Doug Prescott — Wed, 11 Mar 2020 00:50:46 -0400

Just mind your own business ! She dress her way and you dress yours. She probably blends into a crowd better than you do.

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Mar 11 at 2020 5:22 AM

1SG Harold Piet — Wed, 11 Mar 2020 05:22:53 -0400

1st, I feel you are making mountains out of mole Hills. Talk to a senior enlisted female about this, make your decision and follow through. You have your opinion, but I think you need some senior enlisted input.

Response by SSG Ray Elliott made Mar 11 at 2020 9:01 PM

SSG Ray Elliott — Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:01:01 -0400

Does the command have a formal policy regarding what is acceptable attire while on TDY travel? I would actually be surprised if they didn't. Before I addressed an individual about appropriate attire for TDY travel I would make sure the entire unit knew what was considered acceptable travel for both male and female soldiers. Once you have provided your soldiers with what is and isn't acceptable then the next time any of your soldiers doesn't comply you can refer them to the policy, and explain why they aren't in compliance. I would also review the policy prior to anytime the unit would be going on TDY travel.

Response by SSG Aaron Springer made Mar 11 at 2020 11:29 PM

SSG Aaron Springer — Wed, 11 Mar 2020 23:29:41 -0400

As a staff sergeant my advice you be get the group together and set a clearly defined explanation on what you expect. Dont single anyone out just clearly defone the standard and then enforce it. 670-1 explains proper civilian dress when on duty. Ripped Jean's are not acceptable. What I personally would put out for the standard while traveling. You are somewhat limited due to appearantly being enroute allready l. I personally would put out khakis and a polo for men and khakis and a loose fitting blouse or collared shirt for women. In this case maybe put out loose fitting pants in good repair (no holes or tips. And a loose fitting tshirt. Do not address it with her or single her out deal with it on the group level and keep it professional. Based on the photo the only problem I would have is with the ripped jeans.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2020 10:33 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Mar 2020 10:33:35 -0400

Is there another female SM that could speak to her if her clothing choices appear to be less than professional? Is there a command policy about how SMs will dress when traveling TDY?
Referring to AR 670-1, 3-9, perhaps a command policy indicating that Soldiers traveling TDY in civilian clothing shall adhere to a business casual dress code. This could include slacks (not jeans), a collared shirt, button down blouse, etc. If it is decided to create a command policy such as this, it's best to review with JAG before distributing.
In any case, the SM is still representing the military even if not in uniform but traveling for his or her military role, using one's CAC, etc. so providing a guideline about a certain level of professional appearance seems appropriate. Be certain to put out the guideline for both males and females.

Response by PO1 Nelson Fox made Mar 12 at 2020 2:43 PM

PO1 Nelson Fox — Thu, 12 Mar 2020 14:43:21 -0400

I’ve been retired 20 years + many things have changed but my advice would be knowing the Army theres a regulation governing attire while traveling TDY/TAD. If you can’t find it in regs my sugestion would be leave it alone.

Response by SPC Ted Heath made Mar 13 at 2020 2:06 AM

SPC Ted Heath — Fri, 13 Mar 2020 02:06:04 -0400

My daughter wears such attire on the daily. It’s a fad of the young. I remember being ashamed if my jeans were in disrepair, and here they buy them that way. Let her be. Just because we wouldn’t wear it ourselves doesn’t make it inappropriate.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2020 10:36 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Mar 2020 10:36:16 -0400

You are a good person for even trying. IMO it isnt even worth it. The blow back you could receive and the damage to your career, for trying to be a good leader, isnt worth it.

Response by SMSgt James Chandler made Mar 13 at 2020 10:53 AM

SMSgt James Chandler — Fri, 13 Mar 2020 10:53:38 -0400

Travel in uniform has presented a problem since the Iranian revolution n 1979, particularly in Europe. Uniforms identify an easy target in a mass of civilian clothes.

Response by PO1 David Shepardson made Mar 13 at 2020 3:20 PM

PO1 David Shepardson — Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:20:43 -0400

When I was in we were told that when traveling to be in uniform, something changed?

Response by Cpl John Cogswell made Mar 13 at 2020 11:26 PM

Cpl John Cogswell — Fri, 13 Mar 2020 23:26:17 -0400

I wouldn't have a problem with her attire if the jeans were not ripped. Glad I'm not in your shoes, I'd neither want to address that, nor be associated with it.

Response by LCpl Kareem Dixon made Mar 15 at 2020 8:06 PM

LCpl Kareem Dixon — Sun, 15 Mar 2020 20:06:22 -0400

Leave it alone!!!!

Response by 1SG Ken Bedwell made Mar 15 at 2020 10:24 PM

1SG Ken Bedwell — Sun, 15 Mar 2020 22:24:14 -0400

Refer to published guidance. If she is within published standards, your personal opinions don't mean much. If this is a picture of the young lady, you are out of your lane. Nothing wrong here.

Response by LCpl Michael Cappello made Mar 16 at 2020 12:30 PM

LCpl Michael Cappello — Mon, 16 Mar 2020 12:30:36 -0400

Sir. As I am also an "Old Fart" I tend to have slightly different standards for attire than those younger than myself. I / we are products of our upbringing. That being said. There is absolutely NOTHING improper with her appearance. She looks the same as any young college age woman. She is also NOT your daughter. I find it highly suspect and highly disturbing that you, an officer, do not know the regs. I also find it disturbing that you should desire to force her to dress as you wish her to dress. (pants too tight - quit looking at her butt) (Tops too low - quit sneaking a down blouse) I would say the problem is all yours. No disrespect meant or intended, but it seems there are more petty gripes from Army personnel than any other branch. It makes me wonder.

Response by PO3 William Carrien made Mar 16 at 2020 2:06 PM

PO3 William Carrien — Mon, 16 Mar 2020 14:06:12 -0400

Just suck it up. Leave it alone. I personally don't see anything to worry about. She is on personal time until she checks in. Her time, her dress.

Response by PO2 Donna McIntosh made Mar 17 at 2020 8:50 PM

PO2 Donna McIntosh — Tue, 17 Mar 2020 20:50:33 -0400

throwing my 2 cents in..the outfit would have been fine if the jeans did not have those huge holes in them.

Response by TeXan Tex made Mar 18 at 2020 5:17 AM

TeXan Tex — Wed, 18 Mar 2020 05:17:22 -0400

Just tell her that she is cute

Response by CPO John Moore made Mar 20 at 2020 9:11 PM

CPO John Moore — Fri, 20 Mar 2020 21:11:20 -0400

Now days just about anything a male/female want to wear is in fashion ( as long as her sisters are not hanging out forever to see or his package is doing the same. if no one else says anything let it be. On the base, it might be another ball game As there may be some rules for what they can or can't wear). I remember one time I was called to the quarterdeck because an OOD didn't want to let a young man off the ship because of the pants he had on. I said they are selling these in the local stores and people are wearing them. I see no reason that he is not able to leave the ship in them. The OOD let him leave the ship. use common sense until you get a reading from base JAG or the XO

Response by LCDR Joseph Richter made Mar 27 at 2020 8:42 PM

LCDR Joseph Richter — Fri, 27 Mar 2020 20:42:55 -0400

IMO you haven't an issue here except with yourself. Don't get me wrong, I'm old school like you, but people need to be able to express who they are. Try this, create a scenario where this gal will have to be with you and around other ladies, dressed "lady like." Watch her facial expressions as she looks them up and down in their sharp dress and then she may re-evaluate how she dresses. Maybe not?

Response by SGM Robert Murray made Apr 8 at 2020 12:32 PM

SGM Robert Murray — Wed, 08 Apr 2020 12:32:46 -0400

I reverse the logic. I "ask" them a question strictly from a "hypothetical" situation to see how they would respond if they were you. . .as in, ma'am, what would YOU do IF YOU observed <humma humma humma> . How would YOU effectively handle this "perception" of inappropriate attire <given the fact YOU perceive inappropriate and she may not cause she's wearing what she's wearing>. Again, YOU perceive the attire as "questionable," so that's doesn't necessarily mean "appropriate." Your decision to discuss it simply to gain a perspective. After all, it's YOUR viewpoint and not hers.

Response by SSgt John Hutto made Apr 15 at 2020 10:27 AM

SSgt John Hutto — Wed, 15 Apr 2020 10:27:23 -0400

Then dont be unprofessional! Dont say anything inapropriate or give any inapropriate looks and you should be ok! If she isnt directly under you in your chain dont say anything! If it gets bad then bring it up to her direct supervisor/ NCO if she is enlisted

Response by SPC Korey Kilburn made Apr 19 at 2020 5:22 AM

SPC Korey Kilburn — Sun, 19 Apr 2020 05:22:42 -0400

You asked your hire up what to do and you were told it wasn’t your place so let it go.

Response by CPO Avery Winns made Apr 24 at 2020 8:50 PM

CPO Avery Winns — Fri, 24 Apr 2020 20:50:02 -0400

Leave it alone. Is that clear enough of a suggestion.

Response by MSgt Jesse Tiede made Apr 26 at 2020 10:58 PM

MSgt Jesse Tiede — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 22:58:52 -0400

Well, chaplain, I have a suggestion for you, Sir... maybe you need to retire, and move along, respectfully! If you've 30+ years in service, it's time to go...

Response by PO3 Terry Miller made Apr 28 at 2020 4:45 PM

PO3 Terry Miller — Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:45:13 -0400

I don't think you can win this one. You can suggest that in your opinion she could be more appropriately dressed but I don't think you stand a chance of making her conform to your standards when she is wearing what can be seen anywhere on any day.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2020 10:34 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Apr 2020 10:34:01 -0400

The only definitive guidance I have found, in writing, is from the Navy:
https://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/support/uniforms/uniformregulations/chapter7/Pages/7101.aspx
https://www.cusnc.navy.mil/Civilian-Attire-Policy/
The Army in AR 670-1, 3-7b states that "Personnel must ensure that the clothing worn is appropriate for the occasion and reflects positively on the Army" and paragraph c, "Personnel on official travel and traveling by commercial travel means may wear the service uniform, the ACU, or
appropriate civilian attire, unless restricted by the commander."
Paragraph 3-9. Civilian Clothing is a little more specific. It is still a judgement call, but paragraph d states. "When civilian clothing has been authorized by competent authority for wear in a duty status in lieu of a uniform, the
civilian clothing will be of the same comparable degree of formality as the uniform prescribed for such duty. Standards of
dress and appearance will be conservative and meet the same high standards established for personnel in uniform."

If the picture above is of your travel companion, then you could address the issue under this paragraph stating that the jeans are unserviceable. Yes, in this environment SHARP seems to supersede a lot of issues, however I would address this in a manner of both professionalism (as you are traveling on orders), and by the fact that such attire makes you uncomfortable. It may be a good idea to consult your SHARP/EO representative, particularly if that representative is female to get a perspective of the climate and a read on "appropriate".

7101.aspx

Response by SPC Charles Sewell made May 3 at 2020 7:36 AM

SPC Charles Sewell — Sun, 03 May 2020 07:36:35 -0400

The poor girl can't afford new pants and her pants have big holes in them, very unattractive. Perhaps we should take up a collection

Response by Maj A. Clark made May 5 at 2020 5:13 PM

Maj A. Clark — Tue, 05 May 2020 17:13:51 -0400

If you actually posted a photo of her here, along with your complaint, after being told to mind your own business by your supervisor,,,,, and the wrong people find out,,,,,, you will soon be the center of attention. In this day and age, sometimes trying to do the right thing can tie a noose around your neck.

Response by SPC Roger D. Pemberton Jr. made May 14 at 2020 9:22 AM

SPC Roger D. Pemberton Jr. — Thu, 14 May 2020 09:22:48 -0400

Why does it matter? Male or female when traveling whether it be business or personal comfort is key. If the picture is the female in question there is nothing about her that I would associate with the military. Now if she was traveling in uniform and looked tore up from the floor up then yeah say something. Otherwise know that not everyone is not like you. I'm conservative myself but others deserve to image themselves how they choose just as I do.

Response by SP5 Michael Ducharme made May 28 at 2020 11:00 AM

SP5 Michael Ducharme — Thu, 28 May 2020 11:00:27 -0400

I believe YOU are over reacting. I am 72 and know the values of todays youth are different than mine (and yours), but it is accepted practice to wear what one desires to wear.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2020 3:52 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:52:26 -0400

Leave it alone, chaplain. It's not your call. Stay in your lane.
It's disturbing to think you are judging as a chaplain. Glass houses.
Try talking more Soldiers out of suicide rather than being a fashion policeman.
My .02.

Response by SFC George Simons made Jun 19 at 2020 6:30 PM

SFC George Simons — Fri, 19 Jun 2020 18:30:03 -0400

First l would ask if you out rank her? If you're an noncom l instruct her to shape up. She's still on duty while on TDY. She's your subordinate. If not, show above picture to your 1SG or CO

Response by Cpl Loel Larzelere made Jun 21 at 2020 4:26 PM

Cpl Loel Larzelere — Sun, 21 Jun 2020 16:26:19 -0400

You can't. Never could. Never will. Just back away from the fashion, and leave it alone.

Response by LTC Elaine Gullotta made Jun 25 at 2020 3:20 PM

LTC Elaine Gullotta — Thu, 25 Jun 2020 15:20:32 -0400

You hit the nail on the head when you said "official travel". When on official travel the appropriate uniform is business or business casual. You simply pull her aside and say "your attire is not appropriate for official travel. You need to wear business or business casual not "casual" when you are on orders as you are representing the military. If you don't know what that means then you have some research to do."

Saying this is professional and direct. You don't need to go any further about commenting on exactly what the deficiencies are, just send her to research for herself. Typically, she will seek out the assistance of a older and wiser female military member who can clarify what is appropriate. Its important that you not shy away from this as it weakens your status as a leader. There is no reason to fear EO or any other issue when done this way.

30 yr - famale veteran

Response by SFC Wilfredo Ramos made Jun 28 at 2020 9:52 PM

SFC Wilfredo Ramos — Sun, 28 Jun 2020 21:52:41 -0400

Sir, AR 670-1, 3–7. Required or prohibited wearing of the Army uniform: b. Personnel traveling on Air Mobility Command and non-Air Mobility Command flights on permanent change of station orders, temporary duty (TDY), emergency leave, or space-available flights are authorized to wear civilian clothes. Personnel must ensure that the clothing worn is appropriate for the occasion and reflects positively on the Army... Read all of Section 3-7 has good information to guide your subordinate. She will understand what the guidelines are.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Jun 29 at 2020 1:58 AM

SSgt Daniel d'Errico — Mon, 29 Jun 2020 01:58:41 -0400

Sell, firstly, the young lady pictured is not presenting a professional appearance at all. The old quote of "you can't get a second chance to make a first impression" rings loudly here. If you're to be met at your destination, the greeter will think this young lady is your daughter! Seriously, talk calmly to her a out changing out of those pants to impress anyone she meets as a professional. Conversations spring up during travels, especially when the conversation turns to "What do you do"? Dress comfortablly, but dress to impress, always!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2020 9:50 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 05 Jul 2020 21:50:22 -0400

This is a societal issue not a military one. I would leave it alone

Response by Col Randy Hagan made Jul 9 at 2020 8:20 PM

Col Randy Hagan — Thu, 09 Jul 2020 20:20:04 -0400

Professionally, privately and in the very same way you'd counsel a male under the same circumstances. If you have questions, consult a female NCO ahead of time. You can always ask a female NCO to stand by with you when you do the counseling, as well.

My advice is be professional ALWAYS, so that everyone knows what your stance is and any allegation of harassment will be nullified.

My advice doesn't mean you are guaranteed to escape allegations when you do your job professionally. It means that you are in a far better position should that occur.

Response by SrA James Knowles made Jul 13 at 2020 9:18 AM

SrA James Knowles — Mon, 13 Jul 2020 09:18:37 -0400

I see nothing but a bunch of old people mad that women don't dress like they did in the 1860s. There is zero wrong with what's she's wearing

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Jul 31 at 2020 12:55 PM

SPC Byron Skinner — Fri, 31 Jul 2020 12:55:58 -0400

Byron Skinner. My lightning strike me down, I agree with all the NCO’s below. While this young lady might seem silly to many of us, the Army is not the prevailing authority here. Since it seems she is on an airport waiting area it is the responsibility of the Airline to accept here attire or not. Yes I have been on flights where young ladies were asked to deplane and change their clothes or on Midwest Air. the offending young lady was offered a blanket to cover her legs which I guess were exposing to high when she sat down. As far as Base regulations on dress. MCRD San Diego has a rule no fe,ale over the age of 11 could wear shorts outside of the swimming pool area. Need to say in 1967 a lady could;t wear only here swim attire out side the pool area and her cover up could not be shorts. Also for females over 13 there was the bra clause, no bra not allowed on Base.

Response by Cpl Alvin Diaz made Aug 4 at 2020 4:49 PM

Cpl Alvin Diaz — Tue, 04 Aug 2020 16:49:18 -0400

My sincere advice is to, with all due respect, lighten up. I served in the 90s and I preface for the sake of levity (age, I'm almost 48). Back then society was slightly more stringent (fkn uptight), and even back then this would have been fine in my book. I don't see a disheveled, messy, unsat, or otherwise provocative attire on a service member. I see a young, fashionable woman with trendy attire (as outdated as it may be in 2020). The holes at her knees are there intentionally for style and in no way show me that she doesn't care about her outward appearance. Your/Our personal opinions of style have no bearing on military redress (no pun intended). I say back off and let her be. You are her co-worker, not her dad, and going to another co-worker (or sister, as it were) is not the answer either. What you are asking, especially evident since you are asking here, is an opinion poll. You're opinion is wrong, and your "conservative" comment reminds me of something out of the 1950s. The fact that you took her picture and used it, most likely without her express permission, on a social media site for the purpose of judging her outfit would be, I'm sure, humiliating to her, and shameful for you. That you would go to this length is especially troubling and a matter SHE MAY TAKE ISSUE with, and has the legal right to file a formal complaint against YOU....Sir.

Response by SSG Russell Busicchia made Aug 10 at 2020 10:38 AM

SSG Russell Busicchia — Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:38:18 -0400

I can't talk about the current regulations, I retired in 1994, however, I see nothing wrong here. I know the regs changed concerning travel attire. If anyone has a question concerning appropriate attire I recommend that they go through the chain of comment and ask if it is appropriate. By the way, I was never shy about bringing inappropriate dress or behavior to anyone in uniform.

Response by MSgt Allen Chandler made Aug 16 at 2020 10:32 PM

MSgt Allen Chandler — Sun, 16 Aug 2020 22:32:17 -0400

The first question you have to ask yourself is do you really wanna get into this does it really matter. Assuming that you think it’s important enough to make an issue of the phrase casual business carries it meaning it is understood by most. The military has standards it showed most businesses if you’re traveling on business. TDY certainly is traveling on business then it’s perfectly within reason to ask your staff to be in casual business attire.

Response by SFC James Corona made Aug 23 at 2020 6:34 PM

SFC James Corona — Sun, 23 Aug 2020 18:34:47 -0400

I believe that professional dress and decorum for female "civilian attire" can be be a minefield that could lead for retaliation complaint from the female subordinate toward her superior. Tolerance and discreet distance in this situation must be considered unless you definitely have established close working relationship with the subordinate.
WHAT A TINDERBOX!

Response by SSG Roland Starr made Aug 23 at 2020 10:31 PM

SSG Roland Starr — Sun, 23 Aug 2020 22:31:26 -0400

You can bring up your concern to your Company Commander and if they agree with you that the cloths are questionable then the Commander should issue a policy letter regarding cloths and TDY travel.

Response by LTC Philip Marlowe made Aug 24 at 2020 12:47 AM

LTC Philip Marlowe — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 00:47:06 -0400

Simple - Leave it alone. Perfectly acceptable in just about any time period. As an Anti / Counter -terrorism guy of like - lots of years - down playing your 'militariness' is, as if not MORE, applicable now than it has ever been. Frankly, I'm somewhat appalled at the wear of field uniforms (ACUs) when travelling more than I'm concerned about any soldier travelling in jeans (holey or otherwise) - considering anyone looking for a 'target of opportunity' simply has to wait to see whose wearing their ACUs there there is ZERO guess work as who is who.

Response by SP5 Derick Johnsohne made Aug 24 at 2020 1:38 AM

SP5 Derick Johnsohne — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 01:38:01 -0400

firstly, in private to avoid both possible embarrassment but not in such a way that could be construed as harassment . secondly, raise the point as a question . thirdly, if no cooperation or understanding, quote regulations .

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2020 8:28 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 08:28:57 -0400

No. Just because you don’t like her sense of style doesn’t give you any right to police her dress. You’re being gross and your logic shows us you should retire.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2020 8:31 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 08:31:01 -0400

Also, I’m not surprised you’re a chaplain. You’re a disgrace.

Response by PO2 Mike Keyes made Aug 24 at 2020 9:09 AM

PO2 Mike Keyes — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 09:09:04 -0400

Yes, here's an idea; take your supervisor's advice. Where I come from if you go to your supervisor with something and he/she tells you it is NOT for you to address, you'd best not decide to address it yourself anyway.

Response by LTC Donell Kelly made Aug 24 at 2020 10:03 AM

LTC Donell Kelly — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 10:03:56 -0400

As a female nurse officer, now retired, I’ve never been in favor of buying jeans that were already shredded. That said her jeans don’t reveal too much skin, & her t-shirt neck looks it’s up at the base of her neck, exposing no cleavage. I’d suggest, Chaplain, attending church meetings & services in denominations other than your own, seeking a broader perspective of both young female & male contemporary dress. Good luck, sir.

Response by PO3 Rachel Jette made Aug 24 at 2020 10:40 AM

PO3 Rachel Jette — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 10:40:00 -0400

And just what is so questionable about her clothes. She looks like any other young woman. The only thing questionable about her clothes is your judgement.

Response by LTC George Morgan made Aug 24 at 2020 1:56 PM

LTC George Morgan — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 13:56:44 -0400

TDY in Civilian clothes is a GOOD thing. It enhances the soldiers Security as it would yours.

Get out and about in safety: There are many out there who would do harm to Uniformed Soldiers in the Public Domain.

Response by SPC Theodore Nuse made Aug 24 at 2020 6:24 PM

SPC Theodore Nuse — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 18:24:29 -0400

I see nothing wrong with what she is wearing. Nothing revealing or inappropriate. What is wrong with you. You sound like a st I had when I was enlisted. Leave her alone. If you think what she is wearing is offensive in any way maybe you should look deeper inside yourself you an ass.

Response by SSG Paul Headlee made Aug 24 at 2020 6:30 PM

SSG Paul Headlee — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 18:30:20 -0400

I think that your supervisor was doing you a favor. You've got to weigh the risk to benefit ratio. This is just my opinion but I believe that you are barking up the wrong tree. Just not worth it.

Response by Sgt Sarah Ethridge made Aug 24 at 2020 6:43 PM

Sgt Sarah Ethridge — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 18:43:06 -0400

So... Maybe I was enlisted during the "old school" or at least raised by old school SNCOS being 39 now.... I know this is the trend for the younger generation, however... There is a level of appropriate civilian attire while TDY and off duty. Granted I am a Marine and we have a MCO for civilian attire. I feel if it is a business trip, that is not appropriate dress for TDY. We always had to dress at least nice, jeans without holes in them and shirts that are conservative. (https://www.marines.mil/portals/1/Publications/MCO%201020.34H%20v2.pdf?ver=2018-06-26-094038-137 civilian attire order starts on page 1-18) I have been out since 2011... so with that said we would normally address this with her superior officer or SNCO. I am not sure where you are in her chain of command but addressing this with her SNCO or direct superior would be my first step. Either way watch what you say, Females are definitely different today than when I was in. I would talk to a female in her command and have them speak with her.

Good luck!!

404 - File or directory not found.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2020 12:33 AM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 00:33:30 -0400

Her dress is perfectly fine. There is nothing to address.

Response by CW4 Robert C. made Aug 25 at 2020 7:53 AM

CW4 Robert C. — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 07:53:04 -0400

I hate to say this, but you have to leave it alone. In generation that is totally acceptable for travel. The pants are sold like that and you can't tell a person not to buy pants that may be to tight. It is their clothing. As long as she acts professional then there is nothing wrong with the way she dresses. I would say you need to concentrate on the mission at hand and not what she is wearing. If you want to change it then get authorized to wear military uniforms for travel, but we all know how uncomfortable that is. Just my opinion.

Response by SSgt Kevin Hopkins made Aug 25 at 2020 10:56 AM

SSgt Kevin Hopkins — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 10:56:03 -0400

why do you want to correct a subordinate in civilian clothes? you dont have that right you must be the clothes police and you should be ashamed

Response by Sgt Joy Cameron made Aug 25 at 2020 12:38 PM

Sgt Joy Cameron — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:38:14 -0400

Her picture shouldn't be up without her permission!

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Aug 25 at 2020 1:15 PM

MCPO Roger Collins — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 13:15:39 -0400

Still being debated after 4 years, I’ll take my 150 up votes and retire from this one.

Response by MAJ Mike Middleton made Aug 25 at 2020 3:11 PM

MAJ Mike Middleton — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:11:48 -0400

Two issues: 1) if that is her picture that you posted - did she consent to that ? If you not you are jacked up. 2) you do need need a female leader (NCO/Officer) to talk to her - you are a leader do it yourself.

Response by CPO Mike Lepay made Aug 25 at 2020 3:39 PM

CPO Mike Lepay — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:39:34 -0400

I see nothing wrong here if that is the picture in question. Civilian attire is not covered in the regs that I recall. No disrespect but sounds like a bit of a misogynistic take on how she is dressed i.e pants too tight top cut too low. Far too many "standards" for women are determined by men. Travel is travel, comfort counts so unless you are going right into a meeting or some event off the plane there is time to switch to the uniform of the day.

GSMC (sw)

Response by CPO Charles Patterson made Aug 25 at 2020 3:45 PM

CPO Charles Patterson — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:45:45 -0400

The wearing of civilian clothes is a privilege and not a right. I would provide counseling to her about the Navy Regulations and recommend Extra Military Instruction on why there are standards for the wearing of civilian clothes.

Response by SPC Judith Gage made Aug 25 at 2020 4:14 PM

SPC Judith Gage — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:14:00 -0400

You are the NCO in this matter. You have another NCO preferably a women with you when addressing the young subordinate. That way the words you say are heard by someone else other than the two addressing parties. In other words you have a witness. Be kind and considerate but stern by saying you and I are a team and the clothing you choose to wear are not team appropriate.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2020 4:32 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:32:19 -0400

Worry about yourself

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2020 8:32 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 20:32:56 -0400

If your supervisor says to steer clear then you should do so. They are not going to bat for should your situation should go sideways.

Response by SFC Melissa A. made Aug 25 at 2020 10:51 PM

SFC Melissa A. — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:51:47 -0400

If you really want it addressed, you should do it. Strictly on the fact that you would like her to appear more professional during your trips together. (In my opinion she's not dressed professionally) But! I would have another senior military member present as a witness. Probably a female. I have seen too many false accusations and want to help alleviate any "confusion" for you from the start.

Response by MSG William Wold made Aug 26 at 2020 1:36 AM

MSG William Wold — Wed, 26 Aug 2020 01:36:50 -0400

Why is this an issue? Aren’t commands telling soldiers to keep a low profile while traveling considering world affairs? ? You ought to see my stepson who is an 0-6 when he travels you’d have no clue he was in the military or even ever been in it. His former assignment placed him in a rather controversial public eye, And because of they he was given a rather obscure low profile assignment now.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2020 7:40 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Aug 2020 07:40:06 -0400

during TDY civ travel you are suppose to blend in. it's not your place to tell anyone how to dress in civilian life.

Response by SSgt Paul Millard made Aug 26 at 2020 9:02 AM

SSgt Paul Millard — Wed, 26 Aug 2020 09:02:03 -0400

This is really a very simple situation- if there is a specific regulation to apply - use that standard as appropriate. If there is no regulation and you need to use your personal standard you will be liable fro harassment. Would your civilian dress meet the standard of your prior generation, likely not. Do not apply you personal standard for clothing. BTW she seems dressed like the majority of women her age and certainly not appropriate, styles have changed and leaders need to understand

Response by PO2 Greg Donahoe made Aug 26 at 2020 1:24 PM

PO2 Greg Donahoe — Wed, 26 Aug 2020 13:24:06 -0400

I recognize that travel to TDY is considered duty time. IS she a uniformed service member? The only way to do it is to identify either a regulation or written policy from the Commander outlining requirements/standards for dress enroute and returning from TDY and point out that she isn't in compliance. Not sure you should've shared her picture without her permission. I recommend having someone else, preferably another female in the area when you provide the guidance.

Response by SGT Matthew Brodycz made Aug 27 at 2020 7:35 AM

SGT Matthew Brodycz — Thu, 27 Aug 2020 07:35:23 -0400

Have you tried offering her a pair of scissors? See if she maybe wants to make the back of the knees match the front?

Response by SFC David Gomez made Aug 27 at 2020 1:03 PM

SFC David Gomez — Thu, 27 Aug 2020 13:03:38 -0400

Civilian Attire Policy
The question at hand is so, “do I or do I not” protocol is not always the best protocol.
It is better not to address the issue but instead print a copy of the civilian attire policy.
there is one available I know a lot of people don't know or most of the people don't know because it's something they overlooked at time. And ask her can you please take a look at this, with two ncos 1 female 1 male as witnesses only. And thank her for accepting the manual.
Do not go into any correction method, but instead if you need more legal advice please go to the IG's inspector general. so you can find more information on protocols and procedures.

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2020 5:40 PM

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Aug 2020 17:40:01 -0400

Dont.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2020 5:56 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Aug 2020 17:56:48 -0400

Think back to when you were her age. Now ask yourself is she really inappropriately dressed. Or is she dressed in fashion for her age group? The young lady in the picture is dressed like most 16-25 year olds. I am 62 have two daughters 4 granddaughters. I don’t see a problem. Maybe the problem is your an old man like me. But if you feel very strongly about this. Talk to her in a opens door room. Or in an open aera. And remember how you approach her with this is going to set the tone. Good luck.

Response by MSG Brenda Neal made Aug 27 at 2020 9:49 PM

MSG Brenda Neal — Thu, 27 Aug 2020 21:49:21 -0400

I suggest you sit somewhere else. Pretend you don't know her. Maybe you can act like a disgusted father that believes she is a disgrace to your family. Just by her body language, watching whoever is taking that picture, she appears a little shy, not provocative. Her clasped hands are a signal of slight insecurity usually brought on by people acting more superior than she. Are you getting my point? Being a jackass is not part of being a superior to anyone. Maybe you should walk around with a sack over your head if your true attitude is more than what you are saying.

Response by MSgt Ezekiel "EZ" Allen made Aug 28 at 2020 4:17 PM

MSgt Ezekiel "EZ" Allen — Fri, 28 Aug 2020 16:17:02 -0400

I think I'd remind my troop as part of OPSEC, we do not want to draw unneeded attention to ourselves...that keeps it professional and truthful...thoughts???

Response by MSG William Weatherell made Aug 28 at 2020 8:21 PM

MSG William Weatherell — Fri, 28 Aug 2020 20:21:25 -0400

Pray she has other clothes.

Response by MAJ A C made Aug 29 at 2020 5:24 AM

MAJ A C — Sat, 29 Aug 2020 05:24:13 -0400

1. What regulation exactly is she violating that warrants correction?
2. What is YOUR definition of “too” tight or low cut?
3. Not sure, as a chaplain, you’re the best interpreter of a subjective scale of “appropriate” clothing considering your background.
4. We’d all be able to better advise if you put the actual quotation of the regulations she’s violating, otherwise it’s an issue of your opinions, which as I stated above, don’t carry much weight to me (at least) considering your background.
5. I’m sorry her dressing in a non-conservative, likely attractive, modern way bothers you. I’d say that says more about you than her. And yes, you come across as old fashioned.

Response by SFC Robert Sloan made Aug 29 at 2020 6:24 PM

SFC Robert Sloan — Sat, 29 Aug 2020 18:24:00 -0400

Does your unit travel SOP address attire? If not then you really can’t address it without coming off as chauvinistic.

Response by PO2 Geoffrey Bieniek made Aug 29 at 2020 8:49 PM

PO2 Geoffrey Bieniek — Sat, 29 Aug 2020 20:49:14 -0400

Well here is what you need to do. Give me her name and number and we will have a nice discussion about it at a restaurant of her choice.... That will fix everything Capt

Response by MSgt James "Buck" Buchanan made Aug 29 at 2020 11:49 PM

MSgt James "Buck" Buchanan — Sat, 29 Aug 2020 23:49:21 -0400

At the risk of sounding contrary, appropriate to one is not always appropriate to another. Seeing the picture, I am on your side, but at the same time the young lady easily blended into the society around her and was perhaps more at ease than she would have been if dressed more "conservatively". In today's culture I would be more concerned about her attitude and professionalism than her having paid too much for jeans with holes in them.

Response by SrA Victor Dobbins made Aug 30 at 2020 12:54 PM

SrA Victor Dobbins — Sun, 30 Aug 2020 12:54:01 -0400

She is dressed fine, the problem is with your attitude.

Response by SPC Charles Batchelor made Aug 30 at 2020 2:25 PM

SPC Charles Batchelor — Sun, 30 Aug 2020 14:25:44 -0400

Then state that when travelling on TDY, business casual (polo shirt, pants etc without holes or stains) is the minimum required and do it in formation for all to hear so not to single out an individual. If you wouldn't wear it to a job interview then it's not business casual.

Response by SP5 Michael Barczykowski made Aug 30 at 2020 4:52 PM

SP5 Michael Barczykowski — Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:52:44 -0400

JMHO, nothing in that pic suggests that she's in the military or on official business. Chill out and don't over think those captains bars. I'm sure you have more important irons in the fire.

Response by CSM Jim Corrin made Aug 31 at 2020 8:30 AM

CSM Jim Corrin — Mon, 31 Aug 2020 08:30:53 -0400

Require traveling TDY in "business casual" attire (you're the boss). If the female in the picture is the subordinate you are concerned about her top does not appear to be too low cut, were it any higher it would be called a burka. Did you have her permission to share her picture on social media?

Response by A1C Tim Rohrer made Aug 31 at 2020 8:47 AM

A1C Tim Rohrer — Mon, 31 Aug 2020 08:47:57 -0400

I would becarefull with the way u handle Women on that I was in the correction system and that can go sideways real quick , your boundies r different then hers ( let someone else make that decission)

Response by SPC Mark Maestas made Sep 8 at 2020 12:04 PM

SPC Mark Maestas — Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:04:11 -0400

Did you get this SMS permission to post her photo, than isn’t very professional. Beat your face!

Response by SFC James Welch made Sep 18 at 2020 9:40 PM

SFC James Welch — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 21:40:45 -0400

This is a matter best handled by NCO’s in charge of her or any Enlisted Personnel!

Response by Capt David Montoya made Sep 26 at 2020 8:40 PM

Capt David Montoya — Sat, 26 Sep 2020 20:40:47 -0400

Bro. Don’t say anything, mind your own business. Save it for retirement when you can yell at the neighbors and tell them to stay off your yard!!

Response by CPL Michael Shaffer made Oct 5 at 2020 7:04 AM

CPL Michael Shaffer — Mon, 05 Oct 2020 07:04:50 -0400

In this day and age, "professionalism" takes a backseat to "blending". No one would suspect her of being a soldier. So if things go sideways, OpFor is going to target you, and she is going to hand them their spleen.

Response by MAJ Garrett Pettingell made Oct 5 at 2020 11:34 AM

MAJ Garrett Pettingell — Mon, 05 Oct 2020 11:34:55 -0400

My personal opinion is that you are the one out of line here (see “contrarian “ comment and posting her image on social media is clearly a violation of social media protocol.

Response by SP5 Philip Geis made Oct 6 at 2020 11:54 AM

SP5 Philip Geis — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 11:54:19 -0400

Walking into a minefield - stay out

Response by PO2 Chad Thompson-Smith made Oct 6 at 2020 7:25 PM

PO2 Chad Thompson-Smith — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 19:25:30 -0400

Maybe it’s your subjective opinion on “questionable” clothing that’s at issue here and you would be better served letting people live their lives.

Absolutely NOTHING wrong with the attire present in the picture, to suggest otherwise is just ignorant and not needed....

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2020 1:00 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Oct 2020 01:00:59 -0400

You can’t and it’s none of your business. You need to get over your preconceived idea of what’s appropriate. What if I told you your shirt makes you look like an old man? Or your belt makes you look like a hick? Judge the book, not the cover and worry more about caring for Soldiers and making sure they are trained.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2020 12:16 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Oct 2020 12:16:06 -0400

I nit as smart as most of you guys, but I was a high school teacher prior to 28 years in uniform. No one with common sense would comment, you want to destroy your life do so. Best find a superior female in rank and ask her to remedy this situation. The mere fact you notice makes you the guilty one nit her. Do not be stupid do not touch this one, is she is in her birthday suit ewithout g- string still smile and fine female superior to her to correct situation. This is the, change you can believe in America post years, do not sacrifice yourself on the alter of decency for a society does has gone mad. Ignore it if no female superior is there to help. Look the military has a tradition, shit flows down hill, no one is going to,protect your ass on this one.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2020 2:32 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Oct 2020 14:32:37 -0400

Is there an actual Regulation, SOP, Commander's Pamphlet, or even a Policy Letter being violated here?
The whole issue (if we really think there is an issue) seems awfully subjective.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2020 3:48 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Oct 2020 15:48:44 -0400

I think the sentiments expressed about this attire being considered appropriate in modern society are correct - she also is not showing part of her body inappropriate for public view, nor is she wearing any attire that expresses messages inconsistent with our profession (i.e. racist, sexist, etc. comments). Granted, this was a generic image, but I don't think that changes much.

Equally so, if she is not wearing anything identifying her readily as a service member, then she is adhering to travel guidance by the DOD - she is blending into the crowd at that point. Not a doctrinal answer, but I feel it's important to mention. We have a habit of brandishing our military credentials too easily when traveling, and not always in a "situational awareness" mindset.

I would argue if you are going to a place where a certain level of dress formality is required, then a counseling statement should be given to all SMs on that TDY regarding dress code - it should not single out any one member or gender. If you felt then there was a breach of what was counseled, then maybe first have an offline conversation before escalating the issue.

Response by LTC Charles "Pappy" Patchin made Oct 13 at 2020 9:30 AM

LTC Charles "Pappy" Patchin — Tue, 13 Oct 2020 09:30:36 -0400

Padre, it's still the military. If you are uncomfortable, don't sweat it. Go to the SGM, tell him/her what your concern is and why. Also, if she is your Assistant and she is not conveying the team spirit then replace her, advising her 1SG know, in advance ,what you will do and why. Additionally, she is on TDY, still subject to UCMJ and gets military pay. If she cannot understand these simple concepts, replace her.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2020 6:52 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:52:51 -0400

Sounds like just being a ass to me.. the picture shown, doesn't allow you to see anymore then what is shown in PT.. and that's how I would look at it.. on another note.. we are supposed to look like civilians while traveling.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2020 9:48 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:48:15 -0500

If you informed not to address it , then leave it alone

Response by SSgt Michael Bowen made Dec 16 at 2020 4:07 PM

SSgt Michael Bowen — Wed, 16 Dec 2020 16:07:14 -0500

I am an old fart myself .And in my day Contemporary dress for travel was the standard . But Now days it could be questionable . As to what dress may reflect badly or not on the service . Understanding this a standard of dress should have been established before TDY travel even started for all . Then there would have been no question and no one could or would or should feel signaled out . So as to put your best foot forward in public perception of the professionalism and self esteem of the service . But clearly that didn't happen and now it's to late or you do open yourself up to a perception of harassment or sexism . Lesson learned for the next time . But you are stuck with it this time .

Response by PO2 Lawrence Janiec made Dec 18 at 2020 2:03 PM

PO2 Lawrence Janiec — Fri, 18 Dec 2020 14:03:12 -0500

It's been a while since I was on active duty, and I am usually sort of old-fashioned (pun slightly intended), too. I know that not everyone in the military is tasked with security clearances and delicate information/jobs and such, but why not just let her (and everyone else) dress how they want so that they do NOT look like a military member?

In Dubai/Jebel Ali in 1991, we were told we had to put on collared shirts (and at the time I didn't own any and was fortunate a good Shipmate gave me one to wear until I bought some) so that we blended in more with the population, since clean cut hair/shave and wearing shorts and a T-Shirt just sort of screamed enlisted military.

So my thoughts are that yes, she is probably drawing attention to herself, but she is also NOT representing the military in that she is sort of going incognito while traveling, so not many would look at her and think "US military".

Response by PO2 Geoffrey Bieniek made Dec 20 at 2020 10:01 PM

PO2 Geoffrey Bieniek — Sun, 20 Dec 2020 22:01:51 -0500

Ive got another response to this Captain. Unless you have her permission to post this in this or any other forum, you are wrong. Professionally, possibly legally, definitely morally. You could have just described her attire without putting the woman's appearance on blast. If you are her superior, you are responsible for protecting this young military member. Posting her picture in order to shame her, does the opposite. And it's a dick move.

Response by PO3 Kevin FitzGerald made Dec 21 at 2020 8:02 PM

PO3 Kevin FitzGerald — Mon, 21 Dec 2020 20:02:58 -0500

Well , pictured is a young woman in her mid-late twenties attired as any middle -upper middle class peer would be in a casual setting . Her Louis Vuitton bag at her side . She's traveling and looking like any of her age peers . What exactly is the issue ? No one will know she's in the military and that's just fine . Carry on ,young lady ...

Response by SCPO Douglas Collins made Dec 25 at 2020 2:44 PM

SCPO Douglas Collins — Fri, 25 Dec 2020 14:44:04 -0500

If you really believe her atire is inappropriate for travel on TDY, go get advice from your units SHARP counselors, see if they agree or what they think. What I see is a young woman dressing as her peers do. Also if you are meeting as a "Unit" (as in visiting a unit/training a unit) and civilian attire is recommended, then this may not be appropriate depending on the dress code for the event. Times are changing, we need to change with them - with in reason of course. Retired BMCS.

Response by SFC Stephen Everett made Dec 26 at 2020 11:04 PM

SFC Stephen Everett — Sat, 26 Dec 2020 23:04:36 -0500

Hmm! Let’s think about this young lady is TDY and at the airport. She wearing civilian clothes only. Okay, and someone disapprove it? Question, what is policy, the policy and policy? DoD, AR 670-1, and high command policy, commander policy/ company policy. For reason, a leader will go by the daily schedule or duty schedule. Such as, Time, date, uniform, and location of duty, task and mission area. As a leader, give the soldier the time/day of when you need report to duty in that uniform. If not, then Sgt Lucy or PVT Joe you got some explaining to do. Seriously, I seen the picture of this civilian nothing wrong with the look. Take care.

Response by PFC Ken Mason made Dec 31 at 2020 2:26 AM

PFC Ken Mason — Thu, 31 Dec 2020 02:26:14 -0500

Say nothing! Act like it’s normal! Take selfie’s with her in the frame of the picture and share the pictures with those that might have some diplomatic intervention powers with her.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Jan 12 at 2021 3:35 PM

SSgt Daniel d'Errico — Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:35:17 -0500

Pre-deployment briefings for TDYs should cover the wear of civilian attire. Especially to foreign countries where certain clothing items will be considered inappropriate to wear. S o if you're going down range to the Middle East, check your appropriate state department bulletins for clothing wear.

Response by CPL William Knight made Jan 20 at 2021 6:42 PM

CPL William Knight — Wed, 20 Jan 2021 18:42:39 -0500

You shouldn't.

Response by SFC David Pope, MBA made Jan 25 at 2021 4:12 PM

SFC David Pope, MBA — Mon, 25 Jan 2021 16:12:10 -0500

Anytime we traveled it was in civilian clothes. There was a dress code for male and female soldiers while traveling in civilian clothes. It was clear and no questions left for interpretation. We always had to travel in business casual, period. If there is no direction given in attire, then you were free to dress according to what the airlines allowed. This young soldier is dressed in the current fashion, and would not be considered out of line if she were on base in an AAFES/PX or BX. She can't be judged for a standard that isn't clearly stated by command. If she does not meet the standard, then it is command failure not hers.

Response by SFC David Pope, MBA made Jan 25 at 2021 4:16 PM

SFC David Pope, MBA — Mon, 25 Jan 2021 16:16:42 -0500

My unit required business casual when traveling. It was a clear standard for both males and females. If your unit does not have a requirement for civilian attire, then if she doesn't meet an unknown standard, that is command failure, not hers.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2021 8:23 AM

CAPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 Jan 2021 08:23:51 -0500

I agree with MCPO Collins, there’s nothing out of line with what the young lady in the photo’s wearing - it’s contemporary and she’s actually pretty well covered up. I base that on my 23 year old daughter who is a teacher and her roommates.

Response by Sgt Edward Harold made Jan 28 at 2021 2:09 PM

Sgt Edward Harold — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 14:09:51 -0500

Maybe you think she should wear her hair "high and tight". I hate those jeans with the holes but they are a current fashion and thus not at all questionable. I have been to several parts of the western world and that is a standard. I don't like it but I would feel necessary to tolerate it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2021 9:49 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Jan 2021 21:49:41 -0500

Unless your post has a dress attire regulation or your sop states what tdy dress is (like ranger bat business attire for travel is a collared polo, khakis, and dress shoes) there's not much you can do. The only real "unprofessional" thing I see in the photo would be the gigantic holes in the pants, but that's not such a big deal any more since fashion has changed. It is definitely more casual than business casual, but again. If your unit sop does not address wear and appearance on tdy... the only avenue you could take is a candid talk about how times have changed and business dress is different and how the image it presents effects reception. But you can't direct anything at that individual, and it's kind of a passive aggressive move.

Response by SFC Dave Nutter made Jan 30 at 2021 5:10 PM

SFC Dave Nutter — Sat, 30 Jan 2021 17:10:05 -0500

just leave it alone

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2021 10:38 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 30 Jan 2021 22:38:38 -0500

I think the last thing a young enlisted troop needs is their judgy chaplain dressing them down.

Response by SSG Douglas Espinosa made Jan 31 at 2021 12:20 PM

SSG Douglas Espinosa — Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:20:46 -0500

Sir,
Personal opinion, I would not address this on a social media platform your subordinate may be on as well. I would seek counsel from the chain of command on how to best address this issue or just have a plain old sit down with the troop and have a conversation with her as painful as it might be. Make sure to have another party present as well so there can't be anything that could come bite you in the rear later on. As far as the photo, I don't see anything wrong in what she is wearing. She is not wearing anything that would put the US military in a bad light.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2021 2:29 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 31 Jan 2021 14:29:18 -0500

I believe that the way to correct it is to lay out a guideline of clothes that will be acceptable to travel in. I have been in units where I was told that while travelling (not on our own personal time) that we were to wear a collared shirt or polo and khakis or dress pants. If you make it known that there is a standard for males (who like to wear basketball shorts or t-shirts during travel) and females alike, then you can't get dinged for SHARP or EO if they are outside of that guidance.

Response by SGT Allison Churchill made Jan 31 at 2021 2:36 PM

SGT Allison Churchill — Sun, 31 Jan 2021 14:36:29 -0500

Are you seriously using this photo to describe someone inappropriately dressed? I could only see the text in the email about this. There's nothing scandalous about that at all. Using this photo as an example is making me think that you'd claim anything that isn't a turtleneck is "low cut."

Response by SP5 Richard Welch made Feb 1 at 2021 2:28 PM

SP5 Richard Welch — Mon, 01 Feb 2021 14:28:21 -0500

Doesn't appear that she is scantily clad, low cut top, etc. Their are guidelines to be followed while traveling TDY, and you should use them. Her jeans don't seem tight, or revealing, so you really have no ground's to talk to her or counsel her on this matter. You just might be old fashioned....lol.

Response by Capt B Salazar made Feb 1 at 2021 3:48 PM

Capt B Salazar — Mon, 01 Feb 2021 15:48:57 -0500

Your perception of what is professional and appropriate may not match hers, and honestly she is the one who decides what is too low or too tight not you. Being "old fashioned" doesn't give you the right to judge something as inappropriate. Maybe approach her appearance separately as "wear business casual". Yes she represents the military as well but she is also a completely different generation than you. Talk to another female of your equal rank and have her address it as "mentoring" to the younger member. Also, posting her picture on this forum is illegal if you did not get her consent....

Response by PO2 Geoffrey Bieniek made Feb 2 at 2021 12:11 AM

PO2 Geoffrey Bieniek — Tue, 02 Feb 2021 00:11:07 -0500

Every time I get called back to read this post, I get more and more angry. Although it was almost 6 years ago, I hope you got hemmed up for this Captain Beaver. This shows a shocking lack of judgement to post a female subordinate's photo in any forum, with the intent or result of bringing shame to her. I can tell by her body language in the photo, that you are making her uncomfortable or even scared, and that she knows what you are doing and why. Shame on you sir.

Response by Pvt Robert L. Lamoreaux made Feb 2 at 2021 12:14 PM

Pvt Robert L. Lamoreaux — Tue, 02 Feb 2021 12:14:59 -0500

I'm a civilian and have been for over 50-years. And I'm an OLD man whose views as to what is appropriate attire for young women as well as young men is antiquated. (I grate my teeth to almost the breaking point when I see young men walking down the street with their trousers at half-mast and their underwear being flaunted.) But there is a difference between my perception of them as individuals because of this and a perception of them AND their organization if they were identifiable as members of the armed forces.
I think we have to be very careful in order to avoid mixing "personal image projection" and "organizational image projection."
I fully understand your reaction, but I think it is critical that, before doing anything in this situation, that consideration is made of a few questions: Is she doing anything to impact or damage the organization? Is she really doing anything to damage her own image - and, if so, is it any of your business in your role as her superior officer (as opposed to "father-figure" or "friend")? Finally, is it impeding her function in her military role? I don't know if this is helpful or not, but it might help in making a decision on whether a course of action needs to be take, and if so what course should take.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2021 4:55 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Feb 2021 04:55:08 -0500

I may broach the subject by encouraging her to wear business casual. Make sure you are in business casual. Then give her the truth. People dressed in business casual are treated differently than someone that dresses faddish. I know I get treated much better when I wear slacks and a polo shirt than blue jeans and tshirt. It also makes sitting in the first class lounge (free if traveling on orders) better because I’m not getting the stink eye from people.

Response by PO1 Frank Downs made Feb 9 at 2021 12:07 PM

PO1 Frank Downs — Tue, 09 Feb 2021 12:07:16 -0500

If I remember right (being retired for so long) the UCMJ doesn’t cover civilian attire, however base regulations do. She maybe able to travel like this but once’s she is on a base then compliance is required and you being her supervisor the rules are then clear.

Response by SSG Ronalda Frank made Feb 9 at 2021 1:36 PM

SSG Ronalda Frank — Tue, 09 Feb 2021 13:36:22 -0500

What is wrong with her attire?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2021 9:45 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 09:45:59 -0500

Why is this an issue. Relax

Response by LTJG Sandra Smith made Feb 28 at 2021 8:59 PM

LTJG Sandra Smith — Sun, 28 Feb 2021 20:59:52 -0500

I come from the era when ladies wore skirts as our dress uniforms, all of which were an uniform 13" from the floor. I do feel having the knees and half the thigh fronts absent is inappropriate, but otherwise, would not find her attire inappropriate. A bit more self-respect and modesty might not be out of order on her part. But then, I think women today could generally use a good dose of that.

Response by PO1 Terry Gonder made Mar 18 at 2021 6:38 PM

PO1 Terry Gonder — Thu, 18 Mar 2021 18:38:22 -0400

Have your Command put together a set of TDY travel guidelines and publish it.
Then you have something to lean on and your subordinates will be familiar with the guidelines.

Response by PO1 Terry Gonder made Mar 18 at 2021 6:40 PM

PO1 Terry Gonder — Thu, 18 Mar 2021 18:40:41 -0400

Have your command put together guidelines for expectations of appearance during travel for TDY assignments and publish it. That way, the rules are known and the issue can go away on its own. Don't try to address this yourself with the individual.

Response by SCPO Ken Badoian made Mar 19 at 2021 12:59 PM

SCPO Ken Badoian — Fri, 19 Mar 2021 12:59:08 -0400

MCPO if I knew her and she was dressed inappropriately I might say something. That would depend on the venue but other wise I would like you keep my pie hole shut. She might be from a different command or service that has different regs. Bottom line male, female, or other all are equal and should be treated equally. Ah, the wisdom of a MCPO. MMCS(SW)(SS) USN ret. Just kidding Master Chief.

Response by BG John Kross made Mar 20 at 2021 4:39 PM

BG John Kross — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 16:39:57 -0400

BG John Anzidei (USAR RET)
If that is a picture of the female soldier, I see nothing contrary to AR 600-1 20-28. Why create a schism between yourself and your subordinate(s)? We, as members of the military, must use tact when dealing with younger soldier. This is one way to enhance retention by allowing the freedom of expression as long as it does not violate standards of the Army not the individual. In my honest opinion, don't create a problem where none exists.

Response by SN Jay Perry made Mar 20 at 2021 5:11 PM

SN Jay Perry — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 17:11:14 -0400

First rule I learned when dealing with the opposite sex in any situation, especially in public when you are having to make some kind of correction or suggestion or comment. Log everything! When where why how much what you said what her response was what she actually did what you actually did and make sure you keep that log! Write it down!

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Mar 20 at 2021 8:18 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 20:18:50 -0400

If you are in charge than be in charge, soon she will say you are making her “uncomfortable”. Tell her that she can dress appropriately or you”ll all be traveling in uniform

Response by SPC Daniel Alexander made Mar 21 at 2021 9:41 AM

SPC Daniel Alexander — Sun, 21 Mar 2021 09:41:45 -0400

If this picture illustrates the issue then I would say drop it. We had people dressed this way at our mandatory fun days. This is the way people dress today. I think as others have mentioned you are looking at her like a father who doesn't want his daughter dressing a certain way. I am not going to bash you for that it means you likely care about your soldiers. Try to keep in mind though that they are adults and if they are not hurting anyone what they wear off duty or while blending into society is not really your concern.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2021 10:50 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Mar 2021 10:50:58 -0400

You already have.

Response by PO2 Mary Newby made Mar 21 at 2021 12:37 PM

PO2 Mary Newby — Sun, 21 Mar 2021 12:37:57 -0400

I read some of the comments and from a female vet and retired company professional, my advise would be to have a discussion with a female NCO present but you still do the talking. Just tell her while traveling with her you are uncomfortable with her appearance and tell her why. Dont try to change her. If she respects you she will consider it, if she doesn't respect you she will continue dressing as she pleases (and unfortunately without specific dress codes, this is your problem). Unfortunately two things come into play here 1- she may be trying to get a response from an "old" man as your opinion may actually matter 2-dont let any other female (or male) speak for you.....it does actually diminish your authority and position......it may be ok initially, but you will be the topic in bathroom bashing later on.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Mar 21 at 2021 1:17 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Sun, 21 Mar 2021 13:17:59 -0400

But he did it, not you

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2021 8:31 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Mar 2021 08:31:06 -0400

While you may deem her dress inappropriate, what I see is someone dressing age appropriate. yes, the jeans are the type with holes cut in them, which I don't really understand and she looks like she is dressed somewhat casual but, still within the bounds of good taste. I think this is a landmine to avoid.

Response by PO1 Scott Woodward made Mar 22 at 2021 11:01 AM

PO1 Scott Woodward — Mon, 22 Mar 2021 11:01:50 -0400

1. Chaplains serve to support members through listening/counseling, advising, spiritual guidance, mediating, advocating and performing accepted rituals in peacetime and combat extremes.
2. Being an IMCOM chaplain, perhaps at a Garrison, maybe you are too deep in the weeds on this off-duty travel issue.
3. After all this time and numerous responses, you are gratified to post that things apparently "improved" at you command. What a long and indirect process huh?

Response by PO2 Donald Nathan made Mar 22 at 2021 3:56 PM

PO2 Donald Nathan — Mon, 22 Mar 2021 15:56:51 -0400

In my personal opinion, it's none of your business. As long as the individual isn't wearing anything that would make others think that she had something to do with the military. You hit the nail on the head, old fashisoned

Response by SFC Zohn Tennyson made Mar 23 at 2021 7:31 AM

SFC Zohn Tennyson — Tue, 23 Mar 2021 07:31:12 -0400

Hey sir. If her MOS is one that requires civilian attire ( CIS, Legal, Etc.) then obviously dressing the part is important. If she’s simply traveling and no uniform is required, she can wear whatever she wants within acceptable social norms. I’d leave that one be.

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made Mar 23 at 2021 10:38 PM

SGT Juan Robledo — Tue, 23 Mar 2021 22:38:20 -0400

Are you sure she's in the US Military? What's your concerns about her attire?

Response by SGT Andrew Mace made Mar 24 at 2021 3:34 PM

SGT Andrew Mace — Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:34:34 -0400

Seeing how you're a chaplain and all I'll refrain from my normal response of mind your @#$%ing business and just go with "Stay in your lane" I've seem much more provocative dress at the local church!

Response by MSgt Ernest President made Mar 24 at 2021 4:24 PM

MSgt Ernest President — Wed, 24 Mar 2021 16:24:42 -0400

If it were a superior male of female would you feel the same way? What I see is more of a fashion statement. The photo appears to be taken in an airport setting. I don't think she appeared as a threat. Is there a pamphlet or some type of guidance on civilian attire. Be careful, you could get caught-up in the receiving end. EX: Why are you so concerned about her appearance? Was this on a professional or personal level? Were you the only one in your command who saw how she was dressed? Did you have this discussion with your supervisor? Surely you have a chain-of- command. Hopefully, your boss Isn't hearing about this for the first time through social media.

Don't sweat the small stuff!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2021 6:37 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Mar 2021 18:37:24 -0400

Tell her to fucking change. I'm so tired of hearing about 'I'm worried about SHARP or EO". We cant even do our jobs anymore without someone getting offended.

The army is there for two things, kill people and break shit.

If they dont like it, they know where the door is. We have standards for a reason.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Hearn made Mar 24 at 2021 6:50 PM

SSG Jeffrey Hearn — Wed, 24 Mar 2021 18:50:36 -0400

What does AR 670-1 or equivalent regulation say concerning civilian attire? Are there policy letter(s) describing appropriate attire while in travel status?

Response by SCPO Ronald Brown made Mar 25 at 2021 6:04 PM

SCPO Ronald Brown — Thu, 25 Mar 2021 18:04:00 -0400

We are living in a troublesome time, however, this is not one of them. I would reach out to your command and address the military dress codes for today's professional military personnel for accompanied TDY's travel. This will allow the policymakers to address the problem while keeping you clear of the gray area.

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Mar 25 at 2021 7:02 PM

SSG Bill McCoy — Thu, 25 Mar 2021 19:02:34 -0400

Take your observations and concern to your CO and suggest/recommend that he/she (or even higher command) needs to publish a standard for TDY travel based on casual business-like attire. It should probably address shorts, sleeveless, tight or immodest clothing such as low cut blouses or unbuttoned shorts. It can be done to be nearly gender neutral I would thin,.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2021 9:13 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Mar 2021 21:13:11 -0400

Nothing if business casual was not the designated dress code prior to the travel. Or if she is not wearing anything that represents her branch, unit or military affiliation. If you all attended a designated after hours event, command sponsored IE hail and farewell or something of that sort then the answer is you address her with tact. 99% of female Soldiers I ever dealt with did not want special or timid treatment. If a complaint were to be filed it would be meritless so long as you come correct and be professional. Treating female subordinates differently by using kid gloves can merit a complaint as well. Ds or Ps they all get treated the same. IMO

Response by SGT J M Porters made Mar 26 at 2021 12:08 PM

SGT J M Porters — Fri, 26 Mar 2021 12:08:29 -0400

Guy's this is a 2015 post! Do we not have enough to consider besides old stuff. In today's climate, I suggest you run from that young lady. Leave her the heck alone. You are about to open up a can of worms for yourself. But then you know this since it is 2021.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2021 1:12 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Mar 2021 13:12:01 -0400

What are the defined levels of civilian attire by your unit (i.e. roughs, smooths, slicks) if you don't have that defined and have presented that definition to your subordinates then it rests on you not your subordinate. By civilian standards she is dressed more then appropriately for travel, you as a leader need to define those standards for your unit before you can begin to make on the spot corrections.

Response by CMSgt Martin Church made Mar 27 at 2021 12:39 AM

CMSgt Martin Church — Sat, 27 Mar 2021 00:39:45 -0400

Yes - Have your Leadership specify that military Uniforms shall be worn while on Official TDY - Problem solved.

Response by SPC James Seigars made Mar 27 at 2021 3:50 AM

SPC James Seigars — Sat, 27 Mar 2021 03:50:57 -0400

CPT William Beaver: As a Supply NCO in charge of several female soldiers in the only forward deployed (Germany) Dental unit in the army in the early 2K era (We disbanded it while I was there) I can empathize with your situation. All I can do is share how I handled the situation with you and hopefully you can get some use from my experience/advice.
I didn’t have any senior females, NCO or otherwise, in my unit, so what I did was I spoke to the most mature of the female’s that I was in charge of in the office one day and explained to her that I felt some of the females in our squad were setting a bad example for not only the younger females, but also making the military look unprofessional to the local population. I asked her to handle it for me and she did. Hopefully you either have a female NCO/officer who you can talk to about the soldier in question, but if not then maybe a female soldier you trust can be of assistance.

Response by LtCol Bruce Janis made Mar 27 at 2021 7:08 PM

LtCol Bruce Janis — Sat, 27 Mar 2021 19:08:40 -0400

On a different note, in my civilian job as an officer with LAPD, my partner and I had to escort an an escaped prisoner from Dallas back to L.A. Things went well until we deplaned at Burbank airport. Because of the prisoner, a convicted robber, we had to deplane via stairs. She was wearing stiletto heels and they caught in the pierced metal material of the stairs. She had to take them off to deplane. I had gob=ne down first, then the prisoner, then her. Thankfully the prisoner was docile and didn't try to escape while she was fiddling with her shoes. Only extradition we made thankfully. Great detective but needed t0o dress a little less to excess.

Response by SPC Paul LaBelle made Mar 28 at 2021 10:10 AM

SPC Paul LaBelle — Sun, 28 Mar 2021 10:10:39 -0400

Well if you’re passive aggressive like your post implies then you could just go to the person that types up the TDY orders and have them include clothing standards on the orders. But then they have to include those standards on everyone’s orders or you’re being a hypocrite and opening yourself to disciplinary action.
Or you can just let the soldier travel as they see fit and not project your morals onto someone that has, obviously, not asked for your guidance. Don’t be that guy, don’t be the busy body chaplain that sticks your nose in everyone’s business. If you’re uncomfortable with her appearance you could always follow Jesus’ advice and pluck your eye out.

Response by CH (MAJ) Nick Raphael made Mar 28 at 2021 7:18 PM

CH (MAJ) Nick Raphael — Sun, 28 Mar 2021 19:18:25 -0400

Is she your Chaplain Assistant? If so you could involve her CA supervisor. That might convey to her that you do not trust her however. Perhaps a joint meeting with you and her CA supervisor. Do you trust his ability to assist in influencing this situation in the direction that you desire? I was an Army chaplain from 1979 - 2003. I'm sure that the organization as a whole is different from when I served just as my time was different than the times before me. I would advise you to take another look at your personal cultural sensibilities regarding dress and "Professionalism" If the AR does not define "personal attire" then she is well within her right to dress as she pleases unless her dress is so radical it causes a public commotion. Professionalism for chaplains and chaplain assistants are two different things. The challenge here for you is that she is your assistant. Her behavior reflects on you, the your unit, the Chaplain Corp and The Army. Obviously those standards are going to vary between Command/Installation Chaplains, organizations, CONUS/OCONUS etc. From what I see of her dress she is an example of current cultural fashion "standards" No one is going to bat an eye at her for her dress! Candidly it doesn't appear to me that your supervisory chaplain gave you anything that could be considered good advice. Chaplains are extremely risk averse. Perhaps in the 2021 context the consensus is be quiet and do nothing so as to avoid any risk of harm, In my day I wouldnt have thought twice about having a candid conversation with my CA about matters that come up in the course of working closely as a team, Are you being overly reactive and projecting your own thoughts into what it means to be with "someone of the opposite sex and thirty years your junior"? If so that's your problem and not hers (although you could make it hers!) My advice. Follow all the current rules concerning working with members of the opposite sex. As far as her dress, let her know tactfully that the "problem" is simply that you are in fact older and do have different sensitivities to such things as low cut or revealing dress. Let her know that your relationship is important and you don't want this to "possibly become an occasion for tension to enter the relationship." I've wandered a bit. Hopefully i hit the mark somewhere along the way ;-)

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Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Mar 29 at 2021 12:03 PM

Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis — Mon, 29 Mar 2021 12:03:04 -0400

Like some of the others in this discussion, I am going to be a contrarian, here. The need for professional dress came from a perception that the public needs to have confidence in their Armed Forces. This was not an unreasonable thing. However, times change and ever since 911 (and perhaps earlier) the word from leadership has been "blend in." While I am retired, I am still a Civilian Employee of the DoD, and I hear this. Anti-terrorism measures indicate that DOD AD need to dress in a way that does Not make them stand out in the crowd. "Nobody special, nothing to see here, these are not the droids you're looking for, move along."

To verify what I'm saying, I note that all AD and Civilians are required to take a Level I Anti-Terrorism training module on-line. Note what it says about dress while in travel (TDY or otherwise). The word is to blend in and don't make yourself stand out; this (I think) lends itself to the more casual styles.

Oh, and the age difference shouldn't matter, nor should the gender, except where "blending in" would be impacted.

Response by SGM M.B. Pace made Apr 19 at 2021 9:32 PM

SGM M.B. Pace — Mon, 19 Apr 2021 21:32:03 -0400

Let a female soldier a NCO preferably seasoned to speak to her about it or counsel her on it either way she can't say she didn't realize it was an issue.

Response by SSG Jack Scott made Apr 21 at 2021 1:19 AM

SSG Jack Scott — Wed, 21 Apr 2021 01:19:27 -0400

You don’t! Just because a woman is serving in the Military doesn’t change the fact she is woman. Woman will wear what ever fashion is treading in the Country or back home. You may not like it but you are not her father even if you where you would lose that one I know. The photo show is a fashion kids by jeans pre-ripped and worn it is not outside the norm of today’s fashion I know because that’s how the wife explained it me. You may not like the fashions worn by woman but DON’T dare comment on a woman’s fashion unless you want serious repercussions. Right now women in the military are a hot button in DC and the Country don’t go there.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2021 10:41 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Apr 2021 22:41:33 -0400

Unless dictated via orders as to what to wear, let it go. Remember the old force protection rule of try to blend in with and act like the locals to avoid attracting attention. Military folks sometimes forget that rule. Working in an airport as a passenger assistant representative I could always spot the plain clothed air marshals and law enforcement officers along with a high amount of traveling military personnel by the way they both dressed and acted. They actually stood out from the rest of the passengers. Not a good thing to do, especially overseas.

Response by PO1 Helena Janice Ritz made Apr 23 at 2021 7:41 AM

PO1 Helena Janice Ritz — Fri, 23 Apr 2021 07:41:06 -0400

First off, who are you to say her "pants are always too tight and her tops are too low cut"? Are you her father? She is a woman - with a beautiful body that belongs to her and her alone. She has the right to wear civilian attire that SHE finds comfortable. You have no right to judge her. She is not representing the military or YOU when she is in civilian attire, traveling on an airplane. She represents herself. If you're uptight because women have breasts and curves, then you need to see a therapist. Women have bodies, just like men. Men wear pants that are too tight and shirts that display their muscles. Should we ban those too? Grow up and behave yourself. Your conservative values do not justify your denigration of this young lady's style of clothing. If you cannot keep your eyes to yourself, perhaps you're just behaving like a "man" and blaming the woman for your own insecurities.

Response by SPC Tamara Trammell made Apr 23 at 2021 2:02 PM

SPC Tamara Trammell — Fri, 23 Apr 2021 14:02:28 -0400

As a female, I can only say this is a difficult question but you're asking the right ones.
The current SHARP system leaves too much power in female soldier's hands. Therefore, I can only suggest using that and referring the matter to other female NCO's and officers. Until the SHARP system gets figured out and starts protecting male soldiers, that's all you can really do.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2021 3:12 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:12:21 -0400

Yeah so here’s the deal. If you’re on a TDY status, you are still held to the same uniform standards as you would be in uniform. Your best bet is to have a uniform that’s approved for travel for both men and woman. I.e collard shirt and slacks or bios was attire. I would recommend having the group come together as a whole and reiterate that even in civilian clothes we must still look professional. I hope this helps! I wish you the best of luck!

Response by SP6 Greg Jetter made Apr 23 at 2021 10:18 PM

SP6 Greg Jetter — Fri, 23 Apr 2021 22:18:53 -0400

Get a life dude , there is nothing wrong with the way she is dressed , after reading your post and seeing the photo , it's apparent that your afraid that she will turn you on some how , Grow up get a hold of your feelings and stop being an asshole . Your the problem not how she is dressed in civilian attire .

Response by SPC Travis Hughes made Apr 24 at 2021 12:42 PM

SPC Travis Hughes — Sat, 24 Apr 2021 12:42:25 -0400

Jesus, stop lol. if thats a picture of her above you’re being ridiculous.

Response by LTC Reginald Brown made Apr 25 at 2021 7:13 PM

LTC Reginald Brown — Sun, 25 Apr 2021 19:13:54 -0400

I think if you talk with an EO or SHAP rep they would tell you that your responsibility as a supervising to advise and counsel still applies. ...even travel to a TDY still dress appropriately if civilian clothes are authorized. In my subordinate's case, the pants are always too tight and the tops are too low cut. ...but professional appearance on official business travel is a responsibility. Also review AR 670-1, January 2021, page 17, ...temporary duty (TDY),...are authorized to wear civilian clothes. Personnel must ensure that the clothing worn is appropriate for the occasion and reflects positively on the Army. (See DoDD 4500.54E for information concerning mandatory wear of civilian clothing in foreign countries. The individual’s travel orders will reflect information authorizing wear of civilian clothing.) and page 18, ...When on duty in civilian clothes or off duty and outside of their personal dwelling, Army personnel will present a professional image that does not detract from the profession, unless specifically exempted by the commander for specific mission requirements. ...Soldiers are associated and identified with the Army in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore, when civilian clothing is worn, Soldiers will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are commensurate with the high standards traditionally associated with Army service. Back to page 15, Soldiers must project a military image that leaves no doubt that they live by a common military standard and uphold military order and discipline.

Response by SPC Peter Essig made Apr 26 at 2021 12:06 AM

SPC Peter Essig — Mon, 26 Apr 2021 00:06:33 -0400

You don’t. Those are civilian clothes, and out of your purview. Especially with a woman. Your best option is to grin and bear it.

Response by SSG Bobby Richardson made Apr 26 at 2021 7:49 AM

SSG Bobby Richardson — Mon, 26 Apr 2021 07:49:32 -0400

Too-Tight, according to whose standard? Too Low-Cut, according to whose standard?

When I was active, in my early 20's during the Vietnam Era in the 70's, I was scandalized the first time I saw a German tv commercial touting bra's made for plump women; featuring real, live, breathing WOMEN! Now 66, I don't give two farts in a mitten about it.

Remember the phrase "I may not be able to define porn, but I know it when I see it."? SCOTUS decided in United States vs Larry Flynnt that one's personal opinion does not determine what is 'porn' and it's free-speech usage. And the same goes for personal clothing, and it's appropriateness for travel. My point is that unless there are specific instructions in the TDY travel order, or other SOP regarding same, personal taste is not a solid basis on which to officially chastise someone.

Response by 1SG Danny Heller made Apr 27 at 2021 4:48 AM

1SG Danny Heller — Tue, 27 Apr 2021 04:48:59 -0400

If she has nothing about her appearance to link her to the military, leave her alone. I would think you’d have better things to do than harassing a soldier in civvies.

Response by SFC Marshal Gleason made Apr 27 at 2021 8:12 AM

SFC Marshal Gleason — Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:12:19 -0400

Wtf? Are you kidding me? She doesn't look military at all. And why do you care about this, have you been on post/base and gone to the gym? PX/BX? The track? She's got homeless pants on, that's just a question about her taste! Plus, do you see that bag? You could feed a family of four to two weeks for what that cost! Now, if she has a shirt that say "fuck the military" and when you start to beat that ass and she say that's she's military, then after the ass chewing, have her correct herself. That's it, move on.
Hell, I would have asked her out or bought her a drink. Hahaha

Response by SGT Scott Adie made Apr 27 at 2021 10:39 AM

SGT Scott Adie — Tue, 27 Apr 2021 10:39:57 -0400

My simple answer is VERY CAREFULLY. But I wouldn't attempt it at all unless it's your direct responsibility to do so. If it is, then I would do it very much in setting that is public but where you can't be overheard. That accomplishes a few things. It becomes more open and less threatening to your subordinate, it's neutral territory and you can begin with light, general conversation and slowly work your way to your goal. Don't be critical, just share your concern as dispassionately as you can. People are often receptive to a gentle approach that would otherwise be combative. Make sure you're doing this in her best interests as a valued employee and co-worker. Pray first.

Response by SPC Gary Pranzo made Apr 27 at 2021 6:39 PM

SPC Gary Pranzo — Tue, 27 Apr 2021 18:39:18 -0400

On Duty not sure.. Been awhile for me.
Off Duty then the way to proceed is not to proceed. If that is really her picture I would even consider deleting the post altogether.

Response by MCPO Tom Miller made Apr 27 at 2021 7:46 PM

MCPO Tom Miller — Tue, 27 Apr 2021 19:46:09 -0400

When you feel incompetent and it becomes hard to understand what decision is correct, you need to put your retirement papers in as soon as possible. When you have authority over the lives of subordinates, you past experiences are your library and who you emulated as fair competent leaders who have made it a point to ensure you take care of those who depended on you to see they were trained, compassionate care establishment, motivated for self improvement with consistent leadership! Walk the talk when you walk the walk so simple and continue to work for self improvement as a responsible leader. We all have seen those who retire in uniform and watch them lose self respect, peer resentment and any ability of peer emulation. A good leader will live his obligations 24 hours a day because he knows he’s not going to become a weak link!

Response by CPO Bill Frey made Apr 27 at 2021 9:52 PM

CPO Bill Frey — Tue, 27 Apr 2021 21:52:51 -0400

Your unit would need to develop a TDY SOP. You would have to educate the troops on business casual for travel. You would have to make PT gear UA, ripped, stained, T shirts etc UA. You can’t single out one person because you don’t think it’s proper attire. You can set a standard and hold the standard equally for all.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2021 9:15 AM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Apr 2021 09:15:33 -0400

You stop being a bitch
There's nothing linking her to the army

Response by SSgt Telina Sheldon made Apr 28 at 2021 4:35 PM

SSgt Telina Sheldon — Wed, 28 Apr 2021 16:35:46 -0400

A lot of the younger generation do know know what buisness attire is. maybe hold a squardon wide training on it. That one no one is singled out and everyone gets a refersher course on what is expected of them when they are traveling on orders.

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Apr 29 at 2021 1:06 AM

SMSgt Bob Wilson — Thu, 29 Apr 2021 01:06:42 -0400

I can't believe this question. THE SAME WAY YOU TELL A MALE. [1] All subordinates should have been [past tense] told to wear conservative dress [meaning no holey pants, blouse covering the midriff]. In the olden days you could NOT wear jeans and a T-shirt. Prior to that, all TDYs you traveled in uniform.

Response by CPL Joseph Langone made Apr 29 at 2021 3:34 AM

CPL Joseph Langone — Thu, 29 Apr 2021 03:34:23 -0400

If no one else has complained Just keep your Mouth shut and opinions to yourself. As long as there is no published dress code what she wears is none of your business. Pretty Obvious your supervisor does not give a hoot or holler.

Response by SPC Kenneth Cook made Apr 29 at 2021 4:45 AM

SPC Kenneth Cook — Thu, 29 Apr 2021 04:45:03 -0400

Leave it alone

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2021 11:15 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 Apr 2021 11:15:47 -0400

Sir, seeing that you are a MAJ, i assume shes Commissioned as well. If she isnt, she looks old enough to probably be a junior NCO. That being said, there's a certain amount of expected professionalism during a conversation even when discussing sensitive topics. Instead of an on the spot correction or verbal counseling, maybe find a specific quote from the reg and casually ask her in conversation during travel what her opinion on "appropriate" attire actually is. Thatll hopefully open up a friendly discussion that will allow you to express your opinion at some point. As long as you speak solely of clothing and careful to not bring up any specific female body parts, i think your point will be respectfully made. Wether or not she changes her attire will depend on the kind of soldier she is. Young soldiers are different from 25 years ago but i find, in general, most will respect your rank and position when you show that you respect them and their feelings/opinion (something unheard of not that long ago). On a side note, my opinion as a fellow "old guy," that particuler outfit, although casual, i wouldnt consider inappropriate. The only thing showing is her knees, ive seen worse dresses at the Ball lol.

Response by SSgt Sharon Heard made Apr 29 at 2021 11:17 AM

SSgt Sharon Heard — Thu, 29 Apr 2021 11:17:45 -0400

If she is traveling for TDY purposes, then she is still working. She also has to conform to standards representative of the military. It's been a while so I realize much has changed since I was in. However, the Air Force still required (at the time) that we still adhere to standards while on duty regardless of the attire required. I would suggest briefing subordinates together on what those standards, not expectations or preferences, are and make clear what constitutes being on duty outside of typical duty hours where uniforms are required. Allow subordinates to ask questions regarding standards if they have any as well as copies of established protocol for them to refer to in private. After that, if subordinates are not in compliance, they understand repercussions and male or female superiors can proceed with punishment.
SSgt S. Heard

Response by SFC Dennis Yancy made Apr 29 at 2021 12:13 PM

SFC Dennis Yancy — Thu, 29 Apr 2021 12:13:37 -0400

Same as you would anyone else. Treat all the same. Try explaining your point of view and see if works. Might be surprised. I was in ADA in Germany unit when women first showed up at units. Was an interesting time for everybody male and female.

Response by SSG Dan Henson made Apr 30 at 2021 3:44 AM

SSG Dan Henson — Fri, 30 Apr 2021 03:44:07 -0400

Don't do it.
I fell for that trap once and got formally counseled for harrassment by the CO.
All I said was if males had to adhere to military grooming standards, women should also.
We worked around a lot of printers and other machines. Hair up and clip on ties only in the area. She refused to put hair up, and ran straight to the CO to complain.

Just don't. 90% of the time you will be the one to catch hell. Maybe if it comes from a female nco there wouldn't be a problem, but if you ask one to say something, I bet it will bite you.

Response by SGT Todd Stanley made Apr 30 at 2021 7:35 AM

SGT Todd Stanley — Fri, 30 Apr 2021 07:35:53 -0400

CAPT Kevin B is closer to being correct than others. The There used to be a DoD policy that stated when traveling the member is still representing the branch of service and is to be dressed appropriately. Each branch had additional policies. Consult your command as to what appropriate dress code means and JAG office if need be. Once you have a clear understanding you will know how to approach the situation. Any advice to not find out and to just leave it alone is improper for any NCO.
I am retired now. I know some policies have changed. I also know it is still the duty of the NCO to correct improper behavior and not to turn a blind eye to it. Be the kind of NCO you would want to have. I would recommend finding an old discontinued army manual FM 22-101 Leadership Counseling. It was my guide in knowing how to deal with situations like this. I still use the knowledge I gained from this manual. It contains things NCO are no longer taught.
Being ethical, showing integrity, and staying honest is not always easy. You will find some NCOs will get mad at you when you are and they are not. Do whats right in the face of adversity builds strong NCOs.

Response by SPC Ted Heath made Apr 30 at 2021 8:25 PM

SPC Ted Heath — Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:25:17 -0400

Who is in charge here anyway? Someone hands down the orders. Someone sets SOP. I don’t know how the military is today, but way back when, we had guidelines for travel. PCS, TDY, even standards of conduct and dress for ETS. We knew we were military whether the civilian population knew it or not, and we were expected to a accordingly. Find a copy of SOP and hand it to her, then leave it be.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2021 8:39 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:39:07 -0400

You don’t. You let her be an adult. If she’s not harming anything, then it’s not an issue.

Response by HA Jace Gallagher made May 1 at 2021 11:22 PM

HA Jace Gallagher — Sat, 01 May 2021 23:22:15 -0400

Not sure about Army regs, but Navy regs spell out the fact that clothes worn cannot have holes in them, even in civilian attire and even on leave.

Response by SGT Scott Coughlin made May 2 at 2021 9:54 AM

SGT Scott Coughlin — Sun, 02 May 2021 09:54:24 -0400

the same way you would correct a male subordinate...consistency is key

Response by PO2 Lon Hebert made May 2 at 2021 10:44 AM

PO2 Lon Hebert — Sun, 02 May 2021 10:44:03 -0400

have them check in navy regs how to wear civilian clothes properley.

Response by SSG Eric Blue made May 2 at 2021 2:45 PM

SSG Eric Blue — Sun, 02 May 2021 14:45:22 -0400

In my own experience, I've had to remind many a troop (peer, senior, and subordinate) about the policy regarding civilian attire while on TDY...with regards to the Division Pamphlet 600-2 in each case. TDY equals being on orders for me, which means you're subject to military regulations and doing the right thing. Say for instance that the attire of the young lady pictured is questioned. It would need to be more tasteful. No issue with fashion for me, but you represent something greater than yourself in this case. I only had 4 try to report me for EO or SHARP violations (which is weird since I was the EO & SHARP rep) and I told them, "it ain't about harassment, but it's about project a better image. If you decide that you need to report me, make sure you spell my name right." They were a male 1SG, a female CW2, a male SGT, and a female PFC. The BDE commanders and CSMs thanked me for reminding people of the standard. However, if it's a servicemember whom I cannot tie to the military based on appearance, demeanor, or whatever, it's something I'd leave alone. ESPECIALLY if they aren't a part of my division since standards change in different divisions.

Response by Maj Maria Avellaneda made May 2 at 2021 5:22 PM

Maj Maria Avellaneda — Sun, 02 May 2021 17:22:34 -0400

Find a female above her rank to address the subject, a great time could be before the next time include a dress requirement for TDY briefings! Make sure that reference to the appropriate regulations is included!

Response by 1SG Edward Cullen made May 2 at 2021 10:27 PM

1SG Edward Cullen — Sun, 02 May 2021 22:27:24 -0400

Does the Command Unit have a TDY SOP? I would think if such a SOP exists, it most likely states Business Casual for TDY attire.

Response by Sgt Dennis Doty made May 3 at 2021 7:39 AM

Sgt Dennis Doty — Mon, 03 May 2021 07:39:42 -0400

You are correct that it's a touchy issue. It also depends on if she is your subordinate because of rank or are you in her chain of command. If it is strictly due to rank, then you probably should either leave it alone or bring it to the attention of her senior NCO (E-8 or E-9) and let them handle it. If you are that NCO, then it would be appropriate to address it. However, I would probably address it by asking the commanding officer to issue clarifying written guidelines for professional dress when traveling in civilian clothes. That way it isn't directed at her personally, but at the unit as a whole. Be sure that you aren't asking for a double standard. If you aren't traveling in a business suit, you can hardly ask her to.

Response by SSG James Stodola made May 5 at 2021 10:36 AM

SSG James Stodola — Wed, 05 May 2021 10:36:36 -0400

A very understandable question major and with valid concerns. However who are you to determine what is appropriate and inappropriate when traveling on TDY orders? When I used to travel TDY to where ever, I wore civilian clothes. MY orders did not specify what to wear and what not to wear, they had faith in your judgement to dress appropriately for the times. Now this you say is not the actual person, is the person in question dressed in a similar fashion or something else, as you don't specify? If in fact this is similar to the way she was dressed, then what is the problem, as I see a person who is dressed for the times in currently acceptable fashion, nothing to be upset about. You state an age difference of 30 years, well sir, in 30 years a lot of fashion changes take place and what my be acceptable to you may be and most likely is acceptable to the general public. There is nothing that I am aware of the UCMJ that would cover or dictate this issue as she was not ordered to wear a uniform. Yes, in your mind she may be representing the military, but how would one know this by the way she is dressed? I don't know anything about you sir but it sounds to me like you are trying to hold her to your personal standards as opposed to that of societies. If this is the case or something close to it then you should just let it go. What you should be considering is her track record so to speak as a military member. Is she a valued member of her unit, is record clean, does she do a good job, is she professional when doing her job and in uniform? I would think you have better and more important things to worry about major, than how someone is dressed, which happens to be objectionable in your opinion. How much do you really know about this person or their military performance, it looks as though you are searching for a reason to dress her down for her choices of attire just because you don't approve. I mean no disrespect sir, but this i what it sounds like to me, and I have seen many instances of this type of issue in my 34 years. Best advice, leave it alone and realize that you two are miles apart in thinking.

Response by PO2 Mike Keyes made May 5 at 2021 2:45 PM

PO2 Mike Keyes — Wed, 05 May 2021 14:45:18 -0400

Tell her "you take those clothes off right now young lady..." lol

Response by SA Gregory Garcia made May 10 at 2021 9:52 AM

SA Gregory Garcia — Mon, 10 May 2021 09:52:16 -0400

How about mind your business wierdo.

Response by SPC Chris Ison made May 13 at 2021 8:19 PM

SPC Chris Ison — Thu, 13 May 2021 20:19:26 -0400

Yes here is the best advice I can give you:

Shut the fuck up, you old man.

Nowhere in the army regulations does it say how low a blouse can be cut, or how tight pants can be worn.

Keep your mouth shut, or you will be retiring soon.

Response by TSgt Scott Zane made May 21 at 2021 10:42 AM

TSgt Scott Zane — Fri, 21 May 2021 10:42:45 -0400

I don't think your question gives enough context for me to give a good opinion on this. Are these TDY locations CONUS or OCONUS locations? In what settings are the questionable clothes being worn? It's one thing if it's CONUS travel and the two of you are in more informal settings (e.g., public transportation, public locations (e.g., restaurants, hotels, etc.), but another if the clothes are being worn in more formal and/or professional settings too. I don't personally see anything wrong with tight pants, regardless of setting. But low-cut shirts might be better left for informal settings.

If it's OCONUS locations in question, that opens another can of worms. Depending on which countries are involved, the attire may or may not be okay. Particularly in predominantly Muslim nations that don't have westernized cultures...that kind of clothing would definitely be very inappropriate. Even in civilian clothes, she is representing the US. Dress and appearance in foreign countries goes hand-in-hand with all of the customs and courtesies that we all typically get or have gotten briefed on prior to TDY travel.

As far as the picture that is included in your post is concerned...I don't see anything at all wrong with the way she's dressed. But again, insufficient context will get you answers that don't adequately consider a number of potentially important details.

Response by SPC Robert Elliott made May 28 at 2021 10:33 PM

SPC Robert Elliott — Fri, 28 May 2021 22:33:57 -0400

Just further show that it's a different culture now. During my day, travel on civilian aircraft was to look as non-military as possible to not stand out and be a target. Once you were on-site, then it was appropriate business attire or uniform as called for. I can't recall a single TDY that I even had a uniform with me. (Perks of being in a MI unit when it was more than SIGINT) I did a six month TDY in Central America with authorized clothing allowance to obtain civilian clothing appropriate for a jungle/canal zone environment. Guayabera shirts, khaki slacks and shorts, etc. Coming from Germany, had to acquire in Miami on layover. Travelled on blue tourist passport, again different time with the hijackings being more mainstream back then.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2021 9:21 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 May 2021 09:21:37 -0400

Easy, establish a dress code and have everyone adhere to it. Our dress code (and this was recent and in a Special Forces unit) was: Collared shirt, slacks (no jeans or cargo pocket pants), belt, closed toe leather shoes. For women traveling with us, I offered "or appropriate business casual blouse and foorwear" It wasn't the most popular all the time, but there is a ton of room in there for personal style and comfort. And I never had to worry about torn or ripped jeans, "kill em all" t-shirts, or women wearing tank tops or short skirts. As far as pants too tight, there are some dudes that need to check themselves on that one...lol

Response by PO2 Ma Her made Jun 4 at 2021 1:34 PM

PO2 Ma Her — Fri, 04 Jun 2021 13:34:46 -0400

Why the hell men think they're entitled to an opinion about women's attire in any form? Just STFU!!! None of of any of your goddamn business about the way we women choose to dress on OUR goddamn time!!!

Fuck off.

Response by SPC Collyn Lorimer made Jun 4 at 2021 8:43 PM

SPC Collyn Lorimer — Fri, 04 Jun 2021 20:43:45 -0400

This post is 5 years old why is it being brought up again? and if that is the girl that you're talking about there's absolutely nothing wrong with what she's wearing. Her collar is at her neckline and the pants she is wearing are in style nowadays. Just leave it alone.

Response by SPC Collyn Lorimer made Jun 4 at 2021 8:44 PM

SPC Collyn Lorimer — Fri, 04 Jun 2021 20:44:38 -0400

And if you're that concerned about it why are you taking pictures of your subordinate?

Response by Brig Gen Joe C made Jun 4 at 2021 10:57 PM

Brig Gen Joe C — Fri, 04 Jun 2021 22:57:05 -0400

Sorry CH (Maj)...but I disagree. Based solely on the photo you provided, I do not see an issue. There is indeed a dress code that even in civilian attire is inappropriate and would require polite correction. But this in not it. Furthermore, I do not agree with pawning responsibility off to others for something you do not think is appropriate.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2021 7:20 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Jun 2021 07:20:27 -0400

It’s disheartening to see that PC has infiltrated the military to the extent that an officer is vacillating on how or wether he should talk to his subordinate about an issue that concerns him.

Response by SPC Patricia K. (Williams) Elliott made Jun 5 at 2021 8:28 AM

SPC Patricia K. (Williams) Elliott — Sat, 05 Jun 2021 08:28:39 -0400

I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of you here! From what I can see, the jeans have holes or rips in them at the knees and I don't see how this can be considered appropriate travel attire.
Call me old fashion, but back in my day, jeans weren't even considered appropriate when traveling TDY. CAPT Kevin Ball's suggestion to have a senior female take her aside and speak with her about this, is spot on!!

Response by 1SG Scott Heise made Jun 5 at 2021 3:23 PM

1SG Scott Heise — Sat, 05 Jun 2021 15:23:40 -0400

BLUF: Absent specific command guidance, it is your responsibility to determine compliance with appropriate aspects of AR 670-1 while supporting the good order and discipline of our uniformed members - on and off duty.

In effect, TDY is official duty 24 hours a day, with the same requirement to represent the Army in a professional manner - subject to command guidance. If your subordinate does not, in your professional assessment, according to established command policy or the default regulations, meet professional appearance standards, exercise your leadership to resolve the situation.

While regulations and the UCMJ support you making on-the-spot corrections and/or formal counseling, this should should not be a dramatic encounter. Be objective and descriptive in your feedback, and understand that your subordinate may not have alternative clothing or the funds to order new clothes. This should (should have been) be provided as command guidance while performing official travel and while on temporary duty. If you keep it professional, your Soldier will learn the standards and this will be avoided on future missions.

1 - AR 670-1, Chapter 3-1 describes the general appearance standards for all Soldiers, on and off duty.
2 - The Manual for Courts-Martial, article 134 characterizes conduct that is contrary to good order and discipline.
3 - AR 600-20 provides for command and general authority, and AR 670-1, Chapters 1 and 2 provide and delegate authority to unit commanders to enforce appearance standards.

Response by PO1 Jamie Feitler made Jun 6 at 2021 12:06 AM

PO1 Jamie Feitler — Sun, 06 Jun 2021 00:06:19 -0400

Sloppy is never fashionable.

Response by LT Michaline Schalton made Jun 6 at 2021 11:49 AM

LT Michaline Schalton — Sun, 06 Jun 2021 11:49:22 -0400

Is this a photo of your subordinate posted on social media? Are you trying to publicly shame her? What is wrong with you? Don't you have enough to worry about during this pandemic just getting yourself from point A to point B safely? This is American casual. Accepted throughout this country as suitable public attire. Get over yourself and pay attention to important stuff. And stop being a creep peeking down her blouse. BTW: "a lot" are two words, not one. So are "a time".

Response by Cpl Loel Larzelere made Jun 6 at 2021 5:53 PM

Cpl Loel Larzelere — Sun, 06 Jun 2021 17:53:01 -0400

You can't. There is no way this conversation ends well for you. Nope. No way.

Response by SSG Robin Moore made Jun 6 at 2021 8:16 PM

SSG Robin Moore — Sun, 06 Jun 2021 20:16:26 -0400

Keep your mouth shut! Leave it alone! Are you kidding me, it is none of your business. I think there is more to this, leave her alone too

Response by SSG Robin Moore made Jun 6 at 2021 8:22 PM

SSG Robin Moore — Sun, 06 Jun 2021 20:22:11 -0400

There is nothing to correct, get a life

Response by SGT Chris Hamilton made Jun 7 at 2021 12:05 PM

SGT Chris Hamilton — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 12:05:55 -0400

Unless you have an SOP requiring specific attire during travel I would leave it alone. If she shows up at her place of duty in the same attire then I could see a problem as it's not the duty uniform or professional. I travel for work at times and wear comfortable clothing such as jeans a T-shirt, or pollo. When I visit the customer or location I will be TDY I am dressed business casual as i would at my place of work. While you may not like or approve of her travel attire as stated by others I think it would be difficult to address unless it is covered in an SOP or regulation.

Response by CPT Eireanne Russ made Jun 7 at 2021 2:57 PM

CPT Eireanne Russ — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 14:57:01 -0400

Just a thought, but in addition to your age, are you sue your religious biases may not also be showing here? And did you get permission to show her photo here? My suggestion is to stand down and let a more qualified entity be the final judge.

Response by SPC Julio L R. made Jun 12 at 2021 11:41 AM

SPC Julio L R. — Sat, 12 Jun 2021 11:41:34 -0400

Change your mind set. Get up to date and with the program. Get over it.

Response by SPC Julio L R. made Jun 12 at 2021 11:56 AM

SPC Julio L R. — Sat, 12 Jun 2021 11:56:39 -0400

TDY...hmmm. Check your orders. Are there any reg concerning TDY travel? Is there a dress code or mandate? If not, then change your mind set and your commanding ego aside. Get with the program and let live and let go. It would be good cover and concealment. :-).

Response by LTC Donald Donahue made Jun 12 at 2021 1:58 PM

LTC Donald Donahue — Sat, 12 Jun 2021 13:58:25 -0400

Wow! A sensitive topic and some very interesting comments. I once face this sort of situation in a civilian position. My advice, which I believe would be applicable here, was “this is a business [trip] and business attire is appropriate, including business casual. If it is something that you would wear to go out dancing, to a club, or to the mall, it would not be appropriate for business travel.”

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2021 7:10 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Jun 2021 19:10:06 -0400

Depends on your branch of service. Army 670-1 spells out requirements for civilian attire for duty. Does your organization have an SOP or written “business rules?” Enforcing a standard is easy. If your organization doesn’t have a standard and you need to create one, I recommend you do so and coordinate with command legal to ensure it passes their litmus test before implementation.

Now for opinion: I travel quite often for TDY with specific requirements. I’ve addressed with my Soldiers they “should” travel in similar wardrobe to what they will work in based on the outside chance that requirements change or their bags are delayed/lost. Return travel is usually less restrictive because they are headed home. Help them understand the “why’s” ahead of time and you might be able to influence them better.

Response by CPT Bill Weathers made Jun 14 at 2021 7:14 AM

CPT Bill Weathers — Mon, 14 Jun 2021 07:14:17 -0400

Did you really take a whole picture of her and post on the internet?

Response by SGT Bobby Ewing made Jun 14 at 2021 8:51 AM

SGT Bobby Ewing — Mon, 14 Jun 2021 08:51:14 -0400

Leave it alone! She is dressed in modern, casual Fashion clothing. If you want your team to wear a certain type of clothing for travel, you should have told all team members BEFORE actual travel dates. Even then I am not sure you can dictate fashion for TDY travel.

Response by SGT Bobby Ewing made Jun 14 at 2021 9:06 AM

SGT Bobby Ewing — Mon, 14 Jun 2021 09:06:13 -0400

If the young lady in the picture is whom you are complaining about, you have nothing to say. She is dressed in modern, casual attire. There is nothing indecent about her clothing. If the fact she is wearing denim type clothing is your issue, or her appearance seems too casual for your liking, you will need to ensure that your entire team is meeting the standard you have in mind. I personally don't know of any specific, published, TDY dress code.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2021 1:12 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 Jun 2021 13:12:15 -0400

I really hope you didn't post an actual photo of her here. Also I would take the stick out of your ass and stop worrying avout people in civvies.

Response by CWO3 Robert Fong made Jun 14 at 2021 2:29 PM

CWO3 Robert Fong — Mon, 14 Jun 2021 14:29:49 -0400

Major, back in the day this young lady would never make it out of the barracks before the First Soldier would dress her down and have her change into more reasonable attire; however, here we are in 2021 and the SECDEF is Woke along with anyone with a single star looking for three more. Sooooo, as long as she is not bringing discredit on the Armed Forces and while we may personally have chosen better attire there is nothing, we can do about it. Wait 3-1/2 more years and take it up again.

Response by Sgt Frank Staples made Jun 16 at 2021 3:16 PM

Sgt Frank Staples — Wed, 16 Jun 2021 15:16:02 -0400

Even at the ripe old age of 77 what I see is a normal young lady by any standards. We have young women on our fire department that dress that way when in civvies...it is quite normal in today's society.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 17 at 2021 10:43 AM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 17 Jun 2021 10:43:33 -0400

U can take your down vote and put it into your prolific ass. Have an excellent day!

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 17 at 2021 11:24 AM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 17 Jun 2021 11:24:16 -0400

What the hell does too tight and too low mean?

Response by Capt Richard Chason made Jun 17 at 2021 12:23 PM

Capt Richard Chason — Thu, 17 Jun 2021 12:23:49 -0400

Ratty jeans with holes in the knees is not a bad fashion statement these days. In my day males nor females would have wore jeans like these they would have cut him off and made shorts or thrown them away. At least she hasn't made them into a pair of shorts that is embarrassingly short. I just leave her alone.

Response by SGT Patrick Healy made Jul 6 at 2021 11:35 AM

SGT Patrick Healy — Tue, 06 Jul 2021 11:35:09 -0400

If you were to cut her pants where the holes start she would have on long shorts. Nothing wrong here, move along…

Response by SFC Jonathan Adams made Jul 9 at 2021 11:30 AM

SFC Jonathan Adams — Fri, 09 Jul 2021 11:30:06 -0400

I want to know why you feel comfortable enough taking a picture of her but lack the courage to do your job (if you think it OS your job) and correct her yourself.

Response by SSG Roland Shelton made Jul 9 at 2021 1:45 PM

SSG Roland Shelton — Fri, 09 Jul 2021 13:45:45 -0400

I have to ask respectfully, is there truly a military regulation that outlines appropriate to be in dress during these circumstances? Or is it your perspective? Nothing personal intended but I think a good point to follow.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 9 at 2021 6:05 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Jul 2021 18:05:50 -0400

This type of double standard is the reason things are the way they are today. It doesnt matter what a person wears, a man should be able to control his behavior. I dont care if a woman walks outside naked, if you are a respectable person, your responses will be appropriate. Women are not responsible for mens inappropriate behavior.

Response by PO1 Jack Howell made Jul 9 at 2021 6:27 PM

PO1 Jack Howell — Fri, 09 Jul 2021 18:27:22 -0400

No disrespect to the master chief who made the most recent comment, but the UCMJ does not dictate how service members are expected to dress while on TDY travel. That would most likely be covered by the uniform regulations of each individual branch of service and any additional guidance provided by the parent command. Additionally, the TDY command may have its own civilian clothes policy. My advice would be figure out which branch she belongs to, what their uniform regulations say, see off there’s any TDY guidance for civilian attire, and then, if you’ve found what you’re looking for, explain what the issue is, what the guidance says, and what you expect her to do to correct the deficiency (assuming you outrank her).

Response by Cpl Steven Brewer made Jul 9 at 2021 8:31 PM

Cpl Steven Brewer — Fri, 09 Jul 2021 20:31:42 -0400

Has her civilian appearance affected her work ethic, performance, or uniform regulations while on duty? If not, the answer is obvious.

Response by PO2 Gene Conners made Jul 10 at 2021 9:43 AM

PO2 Gene Conners — Sat, 10 Jul 2021 09:43:35 -0400

Unless she (or anyone) has an "obvious, observable" connection to being in the military it should be a "hands off" matter.

Response by MSgt Janice Trojan made Jul 10 at 2021 11:55 PM

MSgt Janice Trojan — Sat, 10 Jul 2021 23:55:55 -0400

I can fully answer this! I grew up in Vegas. I joined the Air Force. My first base was McChord AFB. I was at my first duty station. I went on a hot day to the theater on a Friday; wife beater, short cutoff shorts and thongs(shoes). As I entered they said I was obscene. Dang, no movie and a walk in shame. I just modified and dressed conservatively since then. I believe a positive to me.-Really!

Response by CPO Craig Feise made Jul 11 at 2021 4:53 PM

CPO Craig Feise — Sun, 11 Jul 2021 16:53:09 -0400

Not trying to bust any chops here but, is this really the thing that's eating our lunch?
Let the young lady understand that official travel is still official business and the expected dress is equal to that which would be acceptable in a corporate office. Dress while on liberty is unconstrained in most cases. (as you mentioned, as long as there is no tie back to her military status.)
That said, is what she is wearing over-the-top by todays youthful standards? No. It really isn't.
What we have here is a bit of two constructs. 1) Yes, you're old. (but we wont hold that against you! haha) so you are accustomed to a more restrictive standard. And 2) by the "Letter of the law" would this young lady be out of standards? probably... but not by much. (between you and me its the pants that look like they lost a fight with an angry panther is whats putting her on the wrong side of the line IMO)

Here's the advice. I'd simply mention to her that although her attire is "Acceptable" by most of todays standards there are still a few that she wouldn't align with (both official and personal). its advised that she try to keep dress "Business Casual" when on official travel.
I obviously do not know this young lady, but using the law of averages she's probably keen on "doing the right thing". Just simply putting the bug in her hear about it will likely be enough to yield the desired effect.

Response by SGT Scott Henderson made Jul 11 at 2021 5:40 PM

SGT Scott Henderson — Sun, 11 Jul 2021 17:40:49 -0400

Tell her "If perception was reality; right now you're a whore."

Response by SFC James Nichols II made Jul 11 at 2021 6:01 PM

SFC James Nichols II — Sun, 11 Jul 2021 18:01:49 -0400

Based on the picture and the age of that generation Soldier does have their appropriate dress. All the generation in this era have made it their custom to show the holily knees of a pair of jeans. My opinion to this outfit is appropriate with "No low cut Halter top" under the jean jacket. Though I am old fashion too and would prefer Jeans with "NO Holes." Which would show a strong cleveage. That would make the soldier sluttesy for the public. Which this Soldier is not doing any such thing.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2021 2:29 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 12 Jul 2021 02:29:46 -0400

I am a little rusty, as I have been out for about 10 years.
One thing that stuck with me my entire military career, and I remember vividly to this day, is when someone “asked a female NCO to address [something] with me.” It was so humiliating, and made me feel awkward around my leadership. They created a divide. Before, I could talk to them about anything. After that, I never knew what topic was safe. It affected me my entire military career, and made me feel alienated from my leadership.

I do agree that the attire pictured is unprofessional. You’re on duty 24/7, and you’re representing the military 24/7, especially on official travel.

I also agree with what others have posted: address her in a personable and professional manner directly.

Address the clothing itself, mention nothing about her body, or what parts of it are exposed.

So rather than “do you think it’s professional to show off your legs like that?” (Not that I think you would say that; just giving an example.)

Rather: “do you think that pants with large holes in them are professional? Do you think that reflects well on the military?”

Just my 2 cents.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2021 11:19 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:19:11 -0400

Leave it alone. Best case you alienate the Soldier and diminish your standing in her eyes, worst case you botch it and suffer UCMJ. Likely you will end up somewhere in the middle. If the pic is of her you are very wrong to be putting her on here and are laible to get some sort of complaint against you, if thats just a random girl that is wearing something like the female in question, just let it go, that is well within the scope of acceptable clothing.

Response by MCPO Patrick Sutton made Jul 12 at 2021 11:32 AM

MCPO Patrick Sutton — Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:32:14 -0400

You so called chiefs need education. The questioner is a Major AND a Chaplain.

Response by CPO Don Campbell made Jul 12 at 2021 3:14 PM

CPO Don Campbell — Mon, 12 Jul 2021 15:14:08 -0400

the same way U correct a male military member

Response by Jay Duff made Jul 12 at 2021 4:35 PM

Jay Duff — Mon, 12 Jul 2021 16:35:58 -0400

I’m the father of a female NG 68W. My daughter doesn’t dress like that, but it sure has been enlightening to watch the informed conversation. Thank you, Rally Point, and all your service members that have chimed in.

Just one question (rhetorical): Why did it surprise me that it was a chaplain that asked this question?

Response by LTC Jeff Shearer made Jul 12 at 2021 4:55 PM

LTC Jeff Shearer — Mon, 12 Jul 2021 16:55:47 -0400

ensure prior to TDY travel the expected civilian attire is spelled loud and clear, i.e. in writing. Have them sign it if you want then when it does not happen do it yourself have the NCOIC do it just make it swift. Explain there is a clear standard and she missed the mark.

We had very clear guidance, I would have loved traveling in shorts and beer t-shirts but that did not fit the bill.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2021 8:49 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jul 2021 08:49:59 -0400

You correct a female subordinate the same way you correct a male subordinate. Unfortunately, in today's environment, I'd have a witness handy.

Response by PO2 Amanda Bray made Jul 13 at 2021 1:28 PM

PO2 Amanda Bray — Tue, 13 Jul 2021 13:28:38 -0400

I 100% agree with SGM Robin Johnson. Additionally, are you in her direct chain of command, or do you simply outrank her and want to police her? Are you even in the same unit? It wasn't explicitly stated in your comment. Also, what are the men wearing? Your being uncomfortable with an attractive woman is never a reason to chastise her. That would be solely your issue. Women are not children, nor are they 'a distraction' if you happen to notice their body, and should not be treated as such. Women are in the military for the same reasons as men.

Response by Cpl Stuart Blankenship made Jul 13 at 2021 4:25 PM

Cpl Stuart Blankenship — Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:25:27 -0400

Simply nothing wrong with the way she is dressed, imo. What does seem to be of issue is your outdated and sexist attitude towards her manner of dress.

Response by SSG Byron Hewett made Jul 13 at 2021 5:03 PM

SSG Byron Hewett — Tue, 13 Jul 2021 17:03:25 -0400

Sir, if you are that concerned look to the Regs, DA PAM, or any Unit, Battalion, or Brigade, SOP's that have been published, the UCMJ is going to be a long shot, or go to a Female Officer or NCO and the EO or the 1st SGT and have a sit down with her and you NOT present and talk with her informally to have those concerns expressed.

Response by SMSgt Matthew Hoyer made Jul 13 at 2021 6:16 PM

SMSgt Matthew Hoyer — Tue, 13 Jul 2021 18:16:42 -0400

Looks ok to me, man.

Response by SPC Eddie Esparza made Jul 13 at 2021 8:39 PM

SPC Eddie Esparza — Tue, 13 Jul 2021 20:39:58 -0400

listen to your supervisor and leave it. don't address it like he said.

Response by SPC Eddie Esparza made Jul 13 at 2021 8:41 PM

SPC Eddie Esparza — Tue, 13 Jul 2021 20:41:06 -0400

your supervisor said leave it leave it, it is not for you to address.

Response by SSgt Keith Forsman made Jul 14 at 2021 2:21 AM

SSgt Keith Forsman — Wed, 14 Jul 2021 02:21:49 -0400

Simple, its a one way conversation that should go something like this “Hey Fucko, I could have sworn I said to wear proper civilian attire. Can you please show me where it says that wearing shit like that meets the definition of proper civilian attire, in accordance with the uniform regulations? I thought not - show up wearing shit like that again and you’re getting a Page 11 entry, got it? Good” The end.

Response by CMSgt Marshall Ray made Jul 14 at 2021 12:35 PM

CMSgt Marshall Ray — Wed, 14 Jul 2021 12:35:13 -0400

you need to concentrate on yourself and when there is a problem your supervisor is responsible for addressing it. She looks like a fashionable young woman. I think you are letting your personal prejudices override good judgment.

Response by SSG Harry Outcalt made Jul 14 at 2021 2:25 PM

SSG Harry Outcalt — Wed, 14 Jul 2021 14:25:05 -0400

First you stated tdy but did not clarify theater of operations . Second the standards of civilian dress is much different from military dress for obvious reasons. And third you sir are guilty of being a red-blooded American male in uniform , who has to suffer from working with a colleague who can cause accidents to happen . So the real issue is are you in that soldiers direct chain of command ???. Are you outside the U.S. going tdy ???. Under the new travel threat guidlines all military personnel are to try to do their best to blend in with the local civilian dress to promote safer movement between duty stations... And lastly you could put her in a gilly suit and throw her in mudpit and would not change anything where she is concerned. So sir best advice , problem is not your subordenent , learn to take cold showers or look everywhere but at her no disrespect intended. Grunt muffins hanging around females run into this issue a lot and the ladies liking a man in uniform doesn't help. Welcome to military life and it's complications just remember sir , it could always be worse , you could be outnumber , outgunned, completely surrounded and on your last magazine of ammo. And it starts to rain ...

Response by SGT Joshua Akins made Jul 14 at 2021 9:42 PM

SGT Joshua Akins — Wed, 14 Jul 2021 21:42:20 -0400

Why don’t you worry about shit that matters dork. Goddamn. Nothing better to do? Go home and fuck your wife and get her out of your mind.

Response by PO2 Lorraine Corso made Jul 14 at 2021 10:01 PM

PO2 Lorraine Corso — Wed, 14 Jul 2021 22:01:34 -0400

You're kidding, right? IMO you're a misogynistic A-Hole the likes of with I had to encounter my entire 22-year career.

Response by SFC William Linnell made Jul 16 at 2021 10:49 AM

SFC William Linnell — Fri, 16 Jul 2021 10:49:59 -0400

At many Units (Posts) have a "written" attire policy for civilian wear when going on TDY. Even though you're traveling civilian and in civies, you're still representing the military and your unit. Only thing I see that would be an issue is the worn out holey jeans seen in the photo. As an old Equal Opportunity Rep, if you're going to address your concerns about her civilian attire, make sure that you have a senior NCO, ie, Platoon SGT, 1SG. Make it a verbal counseling not an ass chewing. Why? because she may see nothing wrong with her attire, todays style, so tell her as a mentor/teacher not the in your face DS. The purpose of the NCO's is to cover both of your butts. If done alone between you and her, she gets pissed, vindictive, you are correct with the EO having a sit in with your chain of command.
Now, I don't know what your TDY mission is and I hope that when you both are in the presence of the people your briefing that then she is wearing appropriate clothing that isn't in the fashion of what you described.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2021 11:20 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Jul 2021 11:20:25 -0400

The first question should be, "Why do you care what she's wearing while traveling in civilian clothes?"
If you're still looking for an answer, refer to the first question.

Response by TSgt Mario Guajardo made Jul 17 at 2021 2:20 AM

TSgt Mario Guajardo — Sat, 17 Jul 2021 02:20:24 -0400

This should not be an issue. How would the Major respond if his civilian dress was criticized?

Response by MAJ Michael Kammerer made Jul 17 at 2021 3:09 PM

MAJ Michael Kammerer — Sat, 17 Jul 2021 15:09:46 -0400

You make the uniform of the day business casual for travel like most military units with discipline do.
Problem solved.

Response by MAJ Michael Kammerer made Jul 17 at 2021 3:11 PM

MAJ Michael Kammerer — Sat, 17 Jul 2021 15:11:06 -0400

Make the Uniform of the Day for travel business casual like organizations with discipline do.
Problem solved.

Response by CDR William Kempner made Jul 18 at 2021 6:39 PM

CDR William Kempner — Sun, 18 Jul 2021 18:39:14 -0400

I hate to sound "old school", but going TDY/TAD, you always want to look "presentable". You never know what you will encounter or who you will meet. I had several experiences in my career where I was identified , and then invited to participate in a function/ reception/dinner etc. where I was thanking my lucky stars that I was dressed okay. I think "business casual" is a good way to describe it. You don't have to be in a three piece suit, but you can avoid the "trendy" look. I always remember an HR director I worked with. We were polar opposites, but we agreed on proper decorum, (even when travelling) She was a hoot- I remember her sending home a young woman with an exposed midriff and her navel ring- "I don't want to be looking at that!! You ain't going to the beach!"(smile) It is similar. "Business casual" is a good way to explain it, especially to our younger people.You never know what is going to happen, or who you will meet.

Response by SSgt Paul Millard made Jul 21 at 2021 9:26 AM

SSgt Paul Millard — Wed, 21 Jul 2021 09:26:39 -0400

Nothing to correct, if her orders do not require her to be in uniform, civilian attire is fine. Opinions vary widely on what is considered appropriate so let it go. Do not let your personal clothing opinion be the base of judgement ( check yourself for some other reason for bias). When I travelled by civilian conveyance, it was recommended to blend in, specifically when traveling OCONUS.

Response by MAJ James Woods made Aug 1 at 2021 1:51 PM

MAJ James Woods — Sun, 01 Aug 2021 13:51:26 -0400

You’re traveling between locations and her style of dress is fine. Unless you’re about to head to the TDY location to conduct official business, meet officials, etc. then a dress code whether civilian or military attire. If just traveling knowing your first spot at the destination is lodging or out to eat, personal attire is at the discretion of the individual.

Response by SGT Ralph McClain made Aug 9 at 2021 7:28 AM

SGT Ralph McClain — Mon, 09 Aug 2021 07:28:23 -0400

The moral code of the United States military has gone to hell. Isn't like it used to be soldiers dressed like soldiers they're proud to be soldiers now it's nothing but trash. The army that I used to know is gone.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2021 12:06 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Aug 2021 00:06:49 -0400

Since she is on official travel orders (TDY), I would provide the traveling team an example and explanation of the expected professional appearance should be. I would give a directive regarding the travel uniform for the day...example, collared shirt and pants/jeans and closed toe shoes, etc.

Response by SFC Errington Licorish made Aug 28 at 2021 4:08 PM

SFC Errington Licorish — Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:08:28 -0400

why are you taking pictures of her

Response by SFC Edward Ermey made Aug 29 at 2021 2:27 PM

SFC Edward Ermey — Sun, 29 Aug 2021 14:27:19 -0400

Treat her as any other military subordinate. Just let her know that she represents the military both on and off duty. And that some leaders may think her appearance a bit on the unacceptable side and that you are just letting her know, too keep her from having any future troubles. Or you can let it alone.
With that being said, we live in times that call for blending in with our surroundings, we no longer have the benefit of being 100% safe and secure in our own country. Our service men and women have become Targets of Opportunity. One last thing. During my military career I have had some piss poor leaders and some Extraordinary leaders, both Officer and NCO. The good leaders always taught and reinforced looking at the other persons perspective before making a snap judgement or decision.
It can keep one from unnecessary problems.

Response by CPL Linda B. made Aug 29 at 2021 3:26 PM

CPL Linda B. — Sun, 29 Aug 2021 15:26:41 -0400

You asked your supervisor but he didn't give you the correct answer the supervisor is the one that should be addressing it, especially wheb traveling she is representing a organization.
I'm sure there is a code of conduct and attire.
PS. Too bad (Dear Abby) isn't here to help you out she was one for manners and doing things With a little bit more etiquette..

Response by Cpl Jeff Ruffing made Aug 29 at 2021 8:36 PM

Cpl Jeff Ruffing — Sun, 29 Aug 2021 20:36:05 -0400

Whenever dealing with the opposite sex, on appearance or otherwise, get a female of higher rank than this person and have a one on one with this higher rank female and explain the delicate situation you are in. Tell her this makes you uncomfortable and this needs to be addressed. Then, you can either have this higher rank speak privately with the subordinate or you can tag along and put your two cents in also. Whenever faced with this type of situation always have a female backup. Never leave yourself exposed to a possible sexual harassment suit. You’d be completely defenseless.

Response by MAJ Roland McDonald made Aug 30 at 2021 12:29 AM

MAJ Roland McDonald — Mon, 30 Aug 2021 00:29:38 -0400

Thinking outside the box a little. I see by your profile you are a Chaplain. So therefore I am guessing she is your Chaplains Assistant. And guessing you two are traveling in that capacity. A good friend of mine who was a chaplain told me two things one is that he never takes off the uniform of a soldier in gods army and will help all in that capacity no matter what. Second thing he told me while traveling from Germany to U.S. on TDY with his assistant for a conference there was a medical emergency halfway over the ocean with equal distance to land. The person with the medical emergency felt he was dying and had the flight crew ask if a man of the cloth was on the flight as he wanted to get right and have an final confession and last rights. My friend got up with his assistant and tended to this person in need. They were not in uniform but they were dressed more in line with what a man of the cloth would wear but still better than most. His assistant was also dressed similar as they had talked about this possibility. So you can approach her from this point of view if she is your Chaplains Assistant. And yes the person in distress did pass away on the flight. At which time they switch form taking care of the recently deceased to consoling his family. That is the uniform he never took off but did dress appropriately so he would be taken serious in his capacity. Just some thoughts on and outside the box thinking. But then I had knowledge of this incident from my good friend. As a Chaplains Assistant traveling with you I would hope she would help and appearance can make a difference. Plan for the worst but always expect the worst.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Aug 30 at 2021 1:36 AM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Mon, 30 Aug 2021 01:36:36 -0400

Honest opinion sir, if the photo above is the attire she was wearing, then there is nothing wrong with it. That is "conservative" attire for travel. Hell she is wearing jeans instead of yoga pants, a T-shirt, and a jean jacket. Nothing inappropriate about it.

Response by SSgt Glenn Martin made Aug 30 at 2021 2:46 AM

SSgt Glenn Martin — Mon, 30 Aug 2021 02:46:05 -0400

Maybe the way she dressed on civilian TDY orders was a good thing. We live in crazy times and keeping her military ID private could keep her safe, sadly not everybody likes our military. Another thing, what's wrong with tight jeans and her low cut tops? If she is OK with wearing those cloths who are you to criticize? If todays military has dress standards for travel thats a different story other than that leave her alone.

Response by 1LT Allan Holder made Aug 30 at 2021 6:59 AM

1LT Allan Holder — Mon, 30 Aug 2021 06:59:50 -0400

In this current environment, I would say nothing. Maybe as you develop a good working relationship with her you can make friendly suggestions.Or maybe have another female NCO talk with her and how this could affect her military career.

Response by MSG Kenny Lane made Aug 30 at 2021 7:44 AM

MSG Kenny Lane — Mon, 30 Aug 2021 07:44:52 -0400

Leave it alone Karen

Response by MSgt Bruce Hutchinson made Aug 30 at 2021 11:04 AM

MSgt Bruce Hutchinson — Mon, 30 Aug 2021 11:04:00 -0400

If civilian attire is authorized for your travels and if she’s not bringing dishonor to your team, it seems that you maybe over reacting just a bit. If your female subordinate is the one pictured, I don’t see anything wrong with her manner of dress. Now I’m old fashioned enough to dislike holes in jeans, but as long as her more private parts are appropriately covered (which appears to be true in the picture) I feel it’s ok. But I’ve been retired for some time and I don’t have a dog in that fight so my opinion is just that an opinion

Response by SPC Roger Opfer made Aug 30 at 2021 4:55 PM

SPC Roger Opfer — Mon, 30 Aug 2021 16:55:24 -0400

Leave her alone. You can just look at her picture, if that's her in the above picture and tell she is a young decent person. I think your more out of line for posting her picture without her permission. Drop it. For gods sakes she's not doing anything wrong.

Response by SSG Michael McCalla made Aug 30 at 2021 10:20 PM

SSG Michael McCalla — Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:20:37 -0400

I would leave it alone. You’re displaying implicit biases and your own personal opinion. This could have you facing harassment complaint. I used to travel in sweats on long flights because they were comfortable. Just my humble opinion.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2021 5:03 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 Aug 2021 17:03:05 -0400

Honestly the best thing you can do is just turn your head and walk away. If you to pursue it then she would have a very legitimate IG complaint. Just don't do it.
And I do see this was posted SIX years ago so the advise is for anyone in a similar situation now or in the future.

Response by Cpl A J Torres made Sep 1 at 2021 11:14 AM

Cpl A J Torres — Wed, 01 Sep 2021 11:14:42 -0400

I used to address appropriate dress code by showing civilian clothing examples along side military equivalents: Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta. Just as we would give uniform dress for the day, I would give civilian appropriate code. Exam: "Today, we will attend an dinner with the local leadership. Dress will be Class A's or Civilian clothing equivalent" Gentleman; wear a suit and tie, Women, evening suit or evening dress"

Response by SSG Leo Mcardle made Sep 1 at 2021 11:16 AM

SSG Leo Mcardle — Wed, 01 Sep 2021 11:16:48 -0400

AR 670-1 address’s this issue.
When I had TDY orders they always prescribed the mode of dress while traveling. i. e. Appropriate civilian clothing.

Response by COL Victor Hagan made Sep 1 at 2021 1:22 PM

COL Victor Hagan — Wed, 01 Sep 2021 13:22:43 -0400

If the Soldier was wearing the outfit in the picture then I would strongly recommend you mind your business. Because I don't see anything with her outfit.

Response by MSG John S. Canning made Sep 1 at 2021 3:34 PM

MSG John S. Canning — Wed, 01 Sep 2021 15:34:10 -0400

The best way to handle is IMO if you luggage is lost and your heading to a meeting you need to be ready to go into that meeting even if you don’t have your uniform. To walk into a high staff meeting looking off does not help with a presentation.

Response by CPT Larry Hudson made Sep 1 at 2021 4:46 PM

CPT Larry Hudson — Wed, 01 Sep 2021 16:46:20 -0400

If ucmj does not address it, or rank has not prohibited it, then dont worry about it. If its a personal conflict, see a chaplin.

Response by 1stSgt Ani Stubbs made Sep 1 at 2021 5:34 PM

1stSgt Ani Stubbs — Wed, 01 Sep 2021 17:34:03 -0400

Show us the picture of her wearing something questionable.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2021 10:34 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Sep 2021 22:34:32 -0400

I used to be a real stickler when it came to appearance, but as I've learned with my experience. If she isn't showing representation of the Military, leave it alone. Let her be comfortable

Response by LTC Lisa Ryder made Sep 2 at 2021 12:57 AM

LTC Lisa Ryder — Thu, 02 Sep 2021 00:57:52 -0400

Take a stand and say something. Bring another lady in your office when this is addressed. We are and should always be held to a higher standard. Silence is concurrence and that is no who we are as members of the armed forces.

Response by SSG John J Accornero made Sep 2 at 2021 2:18 PM

SSG John J Accornero — Thu, 02 Sep 2021 14:18:36 -0400

why post her photo is my first question, and no step away- not your concern imo

Response by SrA Doyle Durham made Sep 2 at 2021 8:26 PM

SrA Doyle Durham — Thu, 02 Sep 2021 20:26:46 -0400

If she's not considered "On-Duty" while traveling, her attire is suitable & not out of line. Comfortable clothing is best when traveling on civilian transportation & you should be more concerned she arrives at her destination & finds her way to her duty assignment, because you are her supervisor.

Response by SPC Cory Thomson made Sep 2 at 2021 9:30 PM

SPC Cory Thomson — Thu, 02 Sep 2021 21:30:11 -0400

Gotta say whoever told you to not say anything was right. Unless she is attending meetings or formal events, travel is and should be, treated as off duty or at the very least like the latrine. You don’t salute in the latrine, you don’t call attention in the latrine, you don’t have a dress code in the latrine, and You don’t take pictures of your subordinate in or out of the latrine. That has creepy written all over it. Delete the picture, stop worrying about her jeans and as my 1st Sgt always said, Scan your own lane!

Response by SPC Daniel Minjarez made Sep 2 at 2021 10:09 PM

SPC Daniel Minjarez — Thu, 02 Sep 2021 22:09:21 -0400

I remember the absolute freedom I felt once the work day was done and I could dawn my own gear. I realize this isn't necessarily that. Business trip, I get that too. As stated by others, if there is no code or policy to point to, it's best to just get used to it. We live the uniform and I took exceptional pride in my BDU and class A uniforms. Clean, Pressed, and shined.
Remember this; There no accounting for taste.
You would just be imposing your opinion and possibly fracture a working relationship. If this individual conducts herself professionally, let go of the packaging....

Response by LTC Therese Obidinski made Sep 3 at 2021 10:26 AM

LTC Therese Obidinski — Fri, 03 Sep 2021 10:26:45 -0400

If proper business attire or business casual is the required civilian equivalent when traveling TDY have a copy of the regulation, get a female First Sergeant or Sergeant Major or Female OFFICER maj or above to be with you...it you are her supervisor you should not be afraid to adress her juat because ahe is a girl...have a witness do not counsel her alone....i used to go TDY a lot for my command and we were not allowed to wear ripped jeans....you can address tactfully...do not talk about her looks keep it profesional say your attire is not business casual and ripped jeans are inappropriate

Response by LTC Therese Obidinski made Sep 3 at 2021 10:30 AM

LTC Therese Obidinski — Fri, 03 Sep 2021 10:30:11 -0400

I would also add she can wear that after hours but boarding plane as group or any official social function TDY...No she can not wear that

Response by CPL Barrie D Davey made Sep 5 at 2021 2:38 AM

CPL Barrie D Davey — Sun, 05 Sep 2021 02:38:32 -0400

There is too much (just leave it alone) Equality only works when we STOP saying a Female & Male and we adopt the word ((( PERSON ))) then we have true equality which they have been screaming for.

Response by PFC Kevin Adrian made Sep 5 at 2021 11:19 AM

PFC Kevin Adrian — Sun, 05 Sep 2021 11:19:09 -0400

How about in this case major you just kind your business. There is no off duty dress code.

Response by A1C Michelle Pagan made Sep 5 at 2021 8:37 PM

A1C Michelle Pagan — Sun, 05 Sep 2021 20:37:18 -0400

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with expressing your expectations. While she is "working" she is expected to be in casual business attire when traveling/TDY. No one would show up to work dressed that way. Maybe she just needs to hear it from her supervisor in the presence of a female supervisor.

Response by SSG Todd Gregg made Sep 5 at 2021 9:07 PM

SSG Todd Gregg — Sun, 05 Sep 2021 21:07:58 -0400

Move forward to the present. While you may not agree with, this is the norm for women her age today. If she was representing the military I am assuming that she would have been told to wear a uniform for travel.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Sep 5 at 2021 9:43 PM

1SG James Kelly — Sun, 05 Sep 2021 21:43:58 -0400

You dress how I tell you, Period.

Response by SSG Wade L. made Sep 6 at 2021 12:01 AM

SSG Wade L. — Mon, 06 Sep 2021 00:01:11 -0400

Leave her alone.

Response by MSG John S. Canning made Sep 6 at 2021 2:22 AM

MSG John S. Canning — Mon, 06 Sep 2021 02:22:03 -0400

I’ve responded to this already but to add to it I’ve seen male and female dress for travel look like rag bags by the way they where male and female, Officers and Enlisted. If travel goes sideways for what ever reason and your running late for a staff and command meeting and have no time to Change be ready for the repercussions from having to go to the meeting dressed the way you show up.

Response by CPL Allison Beasley made Sep 6 at 2021 12:07 PM

CPL Allison Beasley — Mon, 06 Sep 2021 12:07:57 -0400

1. What rouse did you use to take her picture in preparation for blasting her in a public forum?
2. This picture appears to be at an airport, I don’t know if it’s just me, but unless told otherwise, I like to wear clothing I find comfortable when flying.
As to your question on how to deal with what you see as an issue, find a document that will back your lawful order you intend to give… do not talk to her alone and if possible get a female NCO/Superior to speak to her with you present to make it less awkward.

But unless she shows up to official duties while TDY in clothing that violates 670-1, I would not address her clothing worn to travel.

Final thought, you should have edited her face out and just left the clothing or only described her attire. If you found a lie to take her picture, I am sure you are resourceful enough to address this with your soldier.

Response by SFC Antonio Baird made Sep 6 at 2021 1:13 PM

SFC Antonio Baird — Mon, 06 Sep 2021 13:13:55 -0400

There should be absolutely no question if personnel are on duty while traveling to a TDY location. After one TDY trip where one one of my Male Soldiers was dressed like he was going to Gothic ball, I decided to issue guidance to everyone going TDY. The following is regardless of sex. JEANS - tasteful jeans do not have holes.
Males can't go wrong wearing a pair of khaki slacks. Females should wear tasteful tops, that are not overly revealing.
Service Members should be told and understand that the American taxpayers are paying for TDY trips along with everything else associated with the services. One of the worst things that can happen is for a civilian to comment on attire and a young or immature service member gets into a passing contest and replies.

Response by 1SG Tom Carter made Sep 7 at 2021 6:40 PM

1SG Tom Carter — Tue, 07 Sep 2021 18:40:33 -0400

Can you cite specific language from AR 670-1 that she is violating? If you can't, then don't.

Response by 1SG Tom Carter made Sep 7 at 2021 6:41 PM

1SG Tom Carter — Tue, 07 Sep 2021 18:41:38 -0400

Can you cite specific language from AR 670-1 that she is violating? If you can't, then don't.

Response by SSG Michael Doolittle made Sep 8 at 2021 3:24 PM

SSG Michael Doolittle — Wed, 08 Sep 2021 15:24:02 -0400

LEAVE IT ALONE, LIKE YOU SAID YOU ARE OLD FASHION

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2021 1:46 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 01:46:43 -0400

She is the smart one, although it is not a professional look, and may not be your idea of a military look while traveling on orders, But who the F@ck wants to look like they are a member of the military while traveling ? Especially on a commercial flight. Not me. Looks like not her also. Take a pill my friend and and you dress the way you want and let her do her thing. As to the statement about together we represent a team, that’s complete BS while traveling commercial and out of uniform. If you’re going to a meeting are you showing up for work yeah you’re a team and you should look sharp, if you’re traveling you should not look like a team but more like a group of friends that are just taking a flight or maybe not acknowledge each other at all. If the military wanted you to look like a team they would put you in a uniform. Are you also going to require that she call you by your rank and salute also while on the plane. I know,… maybe use code name too…. ‘Window seat leader to aisle extra legroom-leader, requesting support, im asking for more peanuts and the whole can of soda, over…. Or here is another idea, develop a police for you team that states no holes in clothing and other standers you want, Dont have a cow now Because you failed, and let me say this again you failed to foresee the issue before hand and address it. Now is to late to address for that trip… Personally I think members of the military should be able to dress how they like while traveling provide it, and now this is only my opinion, they do not have any holes in the clothing, that it is not dirty or in disrepair, and not lewd…I would also advise not to have anything that identifies them as military such as a T-shirt that says Army, Navy guys you wont have to worry about because that probably will have on a tank-tops and short shorts in a solid pastel colors neat and pressed, and the Marines tend to avoid thing they have to read, but if they insist on tees with graphic, stick to marvel Characters, the air force most likely will have designer stuff on so no worries there…. and a traveling abroad maybe not even the US flag anywhere. Low-key casual is always the best way unless of course you’re flying first class then dress like someone who would be flying first class. And for the record its not over the top to use a fake mustache.

Response by PO1 John Roberts made Sep 25 at 2021 1:33 PM

PO1 John Roberts — Sat, 25 Sep 2021 13:33:41 -0400

If this young lady worked for me and we were traveling tdy in an on duty status then I would tell her that those pants were not acceptable. The first woman that worked for me was a huge learning curve, luckily I had a female PO1 who was squared away help me with learning the regs. I didn’t have issues with the young lady that worked for me, all of the other junior females at my command did. Jealousy I suppose.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2021 12:52 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Oct 2021 00:52:22 -0400

I suggest you verify your unit's policy (if they have one), unit commanders can and do specify dress while on active duty/on duty. If they are on travel orders then they are ON DUTY and a representative of the military while traveling. My unit's policy specified "business casual" while traveling in civilian clothes (although there were times that the travel orders stated Class A) and I also have seen it included on travel orders. For travel outside the U.S. we would allow blue jeans (no holes); worn around the waist, not down with the underwear and butt cheeks showing and a collared shirt, i.e. polo or button down/up shirt; absolutely no t-shirts.
I suggest discussing this with the chain of command to see if they have a "written" dress code policy. If so, it may be just a matter of informing this female of the policy. If not, you might convince the commander that a dress code policy should be developed and disseminated to all members of the unit.

Response by LCpl Richard Lally made Oct 30 at 2021 9:43 AM

LCpl Richard Lally — Sat, 30 Oct 2021 09:43:23 -0400

While you may know hat she is military' the rest of the public does not. Maybe she just wants to relax and travel anonymously with out incident. Times and fashions have changed in 30 yrs. what you have been wearing may be out o line or her generation

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2021 11:29 AM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Nov 2021 11:29:05 -0400

Is there an order prohibiting attire that appears to have been dragged down a hardball road for several miles? If so, then yes. Those trousers are unsat. She should find some that are not reduced to rag status. If not, then I reckon you can't touch it. (Those trousers are still grossly unsat).

Response by LTC Pauline Geraci made Nov 1 at 2021 11:47 AM

LTC Pauline Geraci — Mon, 01 Nov 2021 11:47:05 -0400

Leave it be this time, but put out a memo for future travel addressing it to males and females alike. Don't be specific about what not to wear but just state that it should look professional.

Response by PO1 Mark Koenig made Nov 1 at 2021 11:52 AM

PO1 Mark Koenig — Mon, 01 Nov 2021 11:52:41 -0400

If that person in the picture is whom you have an issue with, then it may be time to retire mate.
It is transportation, maybe she needs more pay for some clothes that are serviceable?

In the Navy we would make a joke about it "Hey shipmate, should we take up a collection for some new threads?"

That being said, if you want to pull rank and make a statement about regulations, then make sure you know your regs first. Then explain how she is out of regs.

Also
Taking her picture and posting it on in internet is rather creepy.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2021 1:44 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Nov 2021 13:44:34 -0400

I realize this was originally posted some time ago, but Rally Point saw fit to email it to me today, so I'm just going to go the easy route here:

AR 670-1 states the following in section 3-9:
d. When civilian clothing has been authorized by competent authority for wear in a duty status in lieu of a uniform, the civilian clothing will be of the same comparable degree of formality as the uniform prescribed for such duty. Standards of dress and appearance will be conservative and meet the same high standards established for personnel in uniform.

Soldiers traveling to TDY are in a duty status, ergo the above statement applies. Granted, the paragraph is not exactly prescriptive, but I have most commonly seen that interpreted to mean "business casual" when in transit to TDY.

Response by LCDR Robert Russnogle made Nov 1 at 2021 4:55 PM

LCDR Robert Russnogle — Mon, 01 Nov 2021 16:55:58 -0400

This probably should not be an official conversation, unless both are in uniform. But privately I would, and have, tell her my personal opinion of her dress. She may take that advice in the way it is intended, or not but I would likely tell her anyway and why. She is bordering on indecent exposure and that is dangerous for her. That is my opinion only

Response by SPC Carlton Phelps made Nov 5 at 2021 7:40 PM

SPC Carlton Phelps — Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:40:35 -0400

You seem to be seeing her as a sex symbol, not just a woman that likes to dress in low-cut shirts and tight jeans. If there are rules in place that tell you exactly how to dress on TDY, follow them! If not, whether male or female, why does it matter????

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2021 11:06 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Nov 2021 11:06:43 -0400

Old thread, but leave it to a chaplain to act puritanical and misogynistic.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2021 9:08 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Nov 2021 21:08:45 -0500

This is the case where it would be beneficial to have a female peer outside the younger female's chain politely put a "bee in her ear" and explain the basics of professional decorum. Like it or not women are judged by what they choose to wear, how and when they wear it. Far moreso than any man ever will be.

Response by Frank Leverett made Nov 8 at 2021 5:22 PM

Frank Leverett — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 17:22:36 -0500

I'm with MCPO Collins, I see a young lady in what's actually fairly conservative contemporary clothing. If you're not sure, have a female NCO or Officer look and give you their opinion.

Response by SPC Daniel Killam made Nov 8 at 2021 11:09 PM

SPC Daniel Killam — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 23:09:51 -0500

Maybe cry about it and blanket order your entire unit to wear hajibs. ALSO, formations to inspect civilian dress for uniformity every twenty minutes should help.

Response by PO1 Charles Smith made Nov 9 at 2021 1:48 PM

PO1 Charles Smith — Tue, 09 Nov 2021 13:48:52 -0500

I have read through a lot of responses. The CSM was good as it addresses equally and at a lower level. But I will note that communications is only 30% verbal; communicate in other ways. Maybe dressing yourself up in a snazzy way to make her look (and possibly feel) inappropriately dressed might have worked; but you know how to communicate with her better than I would know how. As you have stated it has been solved, but leadership is not simply a verbal function as you probably well know. Just remember that sometimes even a look of disapproval (or approval) is a form of communications.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Nov 9 at 2021 4:03 PM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:03:22 -0500

AS a Major you are probably a BDE level Chaplain. Talk to CSM and ask for a new Chaplain Assistant on the QT. That should take care of the problem.

Response by Maj Rob Drury made Nov 9 at 2021 11:25 PM

Maj Rob Drury — Tue, 09 Nov 2021 23:25:47 -0500

What I really find sad about this is that a military superior has to walk on eggshells. I personally wouldn't say anything to the subordinate unless the dress was obviously way out of bounds, but that's me. If a superior officer makes a judgement call, the call is made. Comply and move on.

Response by Cpl Brendan Mathieu made Nov 11 at 2021 9:08 AM

Cpl Brendan Mathieu — Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:08:31 -0500

I loath individuals like you! So happy vets day mind your business and go fuck yourself!

Response by 1SG Henry McDonald made Nov 11 at 2021 11:44 AM

1SG Henry McDonald — Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:44:03 -0500

Walk away. You don’t/can’t correct civilian attire.

Response by CPT Stanley Reed made Nov 12 at 2021 5:19 PM

CPT Stanley Reed — Fri, 12 Nov 2021 17:19:14 -0500

I wonder, are you wishing to correct her on religious or professional grounds? Either way, in the whole scheme of things, why are you stressing. She is in a civilian environment, wearing acceptable civilian attire. Btw, you are a major for heavens sake, and you have to ask for advice on social media?

Response by SFC Mark Klaers made Dec 17 at 2021 4:59 AM

SFC Mark Klaers — Fri, 17 Dec 2021 04:59:55 -0500

Piece of advise...drop it! DO NOT correct any female not on duty. I have seen this destroy careers first hand. I've even seen it excused away as OPSEC by command staff. Let it go.

Response by SN Dale "CG" Veach made Dec 19 at 2021 10:52 AM

SN Dale "CG" Veach — Sun, 19 Dec 2021 10:52:18 -0500

Leave it alone. Not really your call and the UCMJ does not define "appropriate" TDY dress. It's simply "your" opinion that she is inappropriate. Drop it.

Response by PO1 Jon Jepsen made Dec 28 at 2021 12:34 AM

PO1 Jon Jepsen — Tue, 28 Dec 2021 00:34:05 -0500

(1) Dressing in civilian attire that is not at all military-esque is probably good for the low-profile approach. (2) If that answer does not help you, then have a female NCO address the issue with said subordinate. (3) with today's military not addressing gender identity disorder properly, I would suggest that civilian clothing is the least of our military's concerns.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2021 11:22 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Dec 2021 11:22:51 -0500

Sir you shouldn’t be worried addressing concerns about the opposite sex. You just need to keep it professional and need to reference the appropriate regulations & or unit policy letters. Most units have policy letters concerning official travel. Perhaps it might be time to conduct some unit or small group trading concerning TDY travel attire to establish what is & what is not acceptable attire while traveling on official duty. If truly concerned you can always have a battle buddy present when addressing a concern.

Response by LCpl Kenneth Heath made Jan 6 at 2022 1:33 AM

LCpl Kenneth Heath — Thu, 06 Jan 2022 01:33:01 -0500

Male or Female has nothing to do with it. Could ANY military personnel wear trousers in that ripped configuration?

Response by PO1 Robert Fast made Jan 6 at 2022 9:07 AM

PO1 Robert Fast — Thu, 06 Jan 2022 09:07:58 -0500

SMH, I would suggest she has done a very good job of not directing attention to her being military. With all the hatred in the world and danger of terrorists attacking and killing military personnel, very well done.

Response by SSG Stephen Kimball made Jan 11 at 2022 2:49 PM

SSG Stephen Kimball — Tue, 11 Jan 2022 14:49:06 -0500

Chaplain, what do you find unappropriate with blue jeans, long sleeve jacket and flats? I see nothing wrong with these travel clothes. Do you think she should be in heels and a dress?

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2022 8:33 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Jan 2022 08:33:08 -0500

If the TDY requires “business casual” and there is no time to check into a hotel prior to your first engagement, you can educated your Soldiers on what that dress code entails. If it is just travel between point A and point B, let your Soldiers dress comfortably however they prefer.

Response by CDR Tom Davy made Jan 23 at 2022 12:18 AM

CDR Tom Davy — Sun, 23 Jan 2022 00:18:37 -0500

While I think this woman is dressed OK, correcting females who dress "too showy" is a potential nightmare. Civilian standards are well below military standards in this area.
In the past, I have taken the easy way out and asked a woman to speak to the female in question. Safe and cowardly. Of course any accusation of harassment from a woman against a man always results in guilty until proven innocent.

Response by Cpl Bill Johnson made Feb 27 at 2022 11:04 AM

Cpl Bill Johnson — Sun, 27 Feb 2022 11:04:59 -0500

Leave it alone. If your just going from one place to another, not in uniform, no one knows you are military.

Response by SSG Jack Scott made Mar 3 at 2022 12:53 PM

SSG Jack Scott — Thu, 03 Mar 2022 12:53:03 -0500

Pretty young women wearing the style of the day. Today women are under attack by the left and pushed to the back of the room by the trans and left. Don’t add to the problem and let women be women!

Response by SFC Tracy Donahoo made Mar 4 at 2022 12:00 PM

SFC Tracy Donahoo — Fri, 04 Mar 2022 12:00:22 -0500

It’s not a style I appreciate but it’s a very typical style and nothing unusual.

Accept it.

Response by CPL Ed Thornton made Apr 3 at 2022 8:09 AM

CPL Ed Thornton — Sun, 03 Apr 2022 08:09:46 -0400

She's in civilian clothing on her leisure time. None of your business. A superior comes along and sees it and decides to correct her, so be it.

Response by SGT Richard Hanson SSP/CGS made Apr 3 at 2022 8:21 AM

SGT Richard Hanson SSP/CGS — Sun, 03 Apr 2022 08:21:09 -0400

I would tell her that she was extremely lucky to have escaped that pack of wild dogs with only torn jeans and no wounds.

Response by COL Eric Burns made Apr 3 at 2022 10:31 AM

COL Eric Burns — Sun, 03 Apr 2022 10:31:43 -0400

It is a choice of here own ,what she wears on personal time, a suggestion could be made ,if its for travel for meetings etc or a mandate by command for mil dress uniform to stay within regs for proper dress wear

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2022 12:04 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Apr 2022 12:04:42 -0400

I'd recommend that you refer to AR 670-1 for guidance on civilian dress. Specifically, Chapter 3, Sect. 3-9, 'Civilian Clothing'. I've copied the bulk of the section for you, but (as most branch uniform regs), much of it is vague & open to interpretation by the superiors enforcing the guidance.

"b. When on duty in civilian clothes or off duty and outside of their personal dwelling, Army personnel will present a professional image that does not detract from the profession, unless specifically exempted by the commander for specific mission requirements.
c. Soldiers are associated and identified with the Army in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore, when civilian clothing is worn, Soldiers will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are commensurate with the high standards traditionally associated with Army service. Commanders are charged with determining and publishing the local civilian clothing policy. When on a military installation, civilian headgear will be removed indoors in accordance with established norms.
d. When civilian clothing has been authorized by competent authority for wear in a duty status in lieu of a uniform, the civilian clothing will be of the same comparable degree of formality as the uniform prescribed for such duty. Standards of dress and appearance will be conservative and meet the same high standards established for personnel in uniform."

Nothing in the photo you've shown is unprofessional. Hell, nowdays, even males wear pants that can be considered "too tight" (aka 'skinny jeans'). Unless she's egregiously violating any part of the uniform policy, let her be comfortable in what she wants to wear.

Response by TSgt Jonathan (Chris) Watson made Apr 3 at 2022 6:31 PM

TSgt Jonathan (Chris) Watson — Sun, 03 Apr 2022 18:31:11 -0400

20yr retired NCO here. With all the big issues in the service, THIS is pretty much irrelevant. The military has a tendency to get wrapped around the axle on the stupid issues, imo. If this was 1994, you might have a leg to stand on with the conservative military bearing argument. Frankly, once the services loosened up on visible tats and body piercing, that genie was out of the bottle. If the young lady is attired as pictured, DROP IT. She is not on duty and she is not overtly advertising that she is in the military. If 24/7 comportment was TRULY an issue, then we should crack down on the jackassery troops get up to off-base while drinking. Do NOT choose this hill to die on. You have better things to do. HOWEVER, if the attire is coupled with other inappropriate or self destructive behaviors, THEN is the time to possibly intercede. If alcohol is involved, then with the sexual abuse issues I would probably get involved. I would discreetly advise the troop that she is not behaving in a becoming fashion AND I would let those around her know, in a manner that could NOT be misconstrued, that any persons seeking to exploit her would be harshly dealt with, military or civilian. If it got to be too bad, I or another would take her out if the situation and the next day I would either address the issue with her myself or delegate it to another, as appropriate.

Response by MSG Jim Conley made Apr 3 at 2022 9:56 PM

MSG Jim Conley — Sun, 03 Apr 2022 21:56:12 -0400

Been on "the other side" of this situation. I was "requested" to "dress down" on travel. Evidently, a three piece suit by a (then) young E7 was a bit much. Yeah, the 80's.....

Response by Lt Col Warren Domke made Apr 4 at 2022 7:32 PM

Lt Col Warren Domke — Mon, 04 Apr 2022 19:32:34 -0400

To some extent the young lady's rank and service might be a factor and it might also be affected by the culture of the unit. You are in a better position than I am to judge these. I assume she is a chaplain's assistant. Her attire should be dignified but that allows some informality. I would also take into account her performance as a service member. It might be appropriate to have a chat with her and suggest a few changes. Of course in uniform or on the job in civilian attire her dress should be appropriate to the situation. Traveling you see all sorts of things that pass for appropriate attire. If she works for you, as her supervisor you have a right to expect her to meet certain standards. You have to determine what those standards should be.

Response by SGT(P) Jody Hall made Apr 5 at 2022 1:51 PM

SGT(P) Jody Hall — Tue, 05 Apr 2022 13:51:42 -0400

Company, BN, BDE, Division regulations on proper attire while on duty or paid travle.
Site the regulations in place, write a informal counceling statement.
Remind her that when not on duty or paid travle it is not an issue and dress you would like. What ever the "current" regulations are. They have a habbit of changing over the years.
If the chain of command is not going to back you it is pointless.

The only qustionable item of clothing is the jenes full of holes. It's the current fassion (though not to that extent).

Now if that is a picture of her I can see how she would be upset. I feal it is unprofessional to show her face identifying here. I understand it was taken in public so legally not a problem. Still posting a picture of someonoe online without their concent is unprofessional, at best rude. SGT(P) Hall, Retired Airborne! :D
Have a great day all, follow regulations and enjoy your service. You will remember it for the rest of your lives. Your subordinates will remember you as well.

Response by SFC Mike Edward made Apr 5 at 2022 4:04 PM

SFC Mike Edward — Tue, 05 Apr 2022 16:04:39 -0400

I actually just went through some pain to login and reply to this.

1. Traveling in civies is a grey area. The idea of traveling in civies is to make the traveler less of a target... Which means fitting into cultural norms. So the whole "dress within standards" kinda goes out the door.

2. Unless... The civilian dress has been dictated by the commander. There is no grey area in this case, it's black and white.

Unfortunately... Given the military's predisposition of bowing down to the helpless soldier that doesn't follow the rules, this one could complain to higher and get away with it. HOWEVER, that does not justify letting it pass. Follow the procedures. Tell her to change if she is not dressed according to whatever guidance your commander gave. She probably won't. So counsel upon return.

There is no grey area when it comes to the commander's decree of what will be worn while on orders. It's black and white.

Response by AN Ron Wright made Apr 6 at 2022 12:03 AM

AN Ron Wright — Wed, 06 Apr 2022 00:03:54 -0400

i see much worse at the schools there is nothing wrong here she is an adult and her own person

Response by Sgt Michael Betts made Apr 6 at 2022 1:58 AM

Sgt Michael Betts — Wed, 06 Apr 2022 01:58:48 -0400

Why not counsel your subordinate and couch it in the same terms as you have your question? You might also point out that the clothes she arrives in are the same that she traveled wearing and that it doesn't reflect the "professional appearance" you want to project as a member of the United States military service. (BTW, "alot" is not a word in the English language. You can look it up.)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2022 8:40 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2022 08:40:10 -0400

Honestly, outside of not being a fan of the ripped jeans look, I see nothing wrong with what she is wearing. Unless there is a written regulation that states "buisness casual" or any specific style that's prohibited to be worn during TDY travel, you're barking up the wrong tree.
You may not like the current styles being worn by our younger counterparts, but she is literally wearing what is worn by 90% of young adults in her age group, and there is nothing provocative about her attire.
To me, you have two choices. You can campaign to have a policy change that is more specific in what should be worn when traveling TDY, or leave it alone.
I will say if blending in and not looking like a .mil worker is part of the deal, she is actually doing A very good job of doing so.

CT sends.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2022 6:33 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2022 18:33:15 -0400

I think that I am going to wear whatever I want when I'm traveling. If someone doesn't like it they can accept the finger I give them.

Response by SSG James N. made Apr 7 at 2022 8:45 AM

SSG James N. — Thu, 07 Apr 2022 08:45:04 -0400

I guess you would shit all over yourself seeing my civilian travel. The object is to look nonmilitary so we are not a target. Looked like a rock and roller in chucks or Docs and the only person who ever called me military was a younger female stewardess who said it was more in my eyes than my clothes. Yeah, I had a 1SG question my stuff but he backed down when I explained he was the one making us ALL targeted. Apparently he did not understand the assignment.
Wear clothing that makes you look as non military as possible, even on liberty because we do not want to be targeted

Response by MSgt Wes Tracy made Apr 7 at 2022 8:53 AM

MSgt Wes Tracy — Thu, 07 Apr 2022 08:53:43 -0400

I can understand the old school thought. I struggle with it occasionally and do not like some of the current fashion trends of younger people, but I quietly accept it as their choice. I can see your intentions are good but I agree with the other commenters not to raise an issue.

Response by PO3 Dale Olson made Apr 7 at 2022 9:31 AM

PO3 Dale Olson — Thu, 07 Apr 2022 09:31:20 -0400

I also believe in proper dress. I would have done one of 2 things.
1. Have a short counseling session with her after you return to your duty station.
2. Leave her alone by sitting away from her, have no conversation with her during the travel, and let her check in on her own. When she asks why... tell her in no uncertain terms about her lack of professionalism.
To me, TDY travel is not OFF DUTY and you dress properly.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2022 11:05 AM

CAPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Apr 2022 11:05:06 -0400

first, I hope this is not actually a picture of your soldier. There are definitely problems with taking someone's picture and using it in a semi-public discussion forum such as this, without consent. But on topic, as a female who was harassed and assaulted during my career (midshipman to O-6), as well as counseled both appropriately and inappropriately, I have a perspective that might be useful. Note, I also was a SAPR trainer at the Pentagon and a certified victim advocate. (1) if you are somewhere the SOFA or regional commander's directive includes travel/liberty dress code, then all persons should be following this. Here's an example Army base policy: https://home.army.mil/jackson/application/files/1815/7989/2116/Standards_of_Civilian_Dress_and_Prohibited_Attire.pdf and an overseas policy: https://www.cusnc.navy.mil/Civilian-Attire-Policy/ (2) If no directives or local policies are established, both men and women pretty much have the right to dress as they please. You may find, or establish a policy in your command that dictates clothing while on military facilities, conducting official business and traveling to/from said business. In absence of that, you could have a general briefing with your unit and lay out your expectations. But they need to be fair and reasonable and broadly applicable. (3) Tight pants are the current fashion, and I remember shirt stays, but now we have blouses that aren't tucked -- my point being that what you find provocative is mainly a personal issue, not a personnel issue. (4) At the end of the day though, I agree with your commander, if you are the most immediate person in someone's chain of command and something concerns you, you are the correct person to address it. Additionally, there may be times where someone not in your immediate up/down chain of command clearly needs to fix something (typically in uniform), and as a military member with pride of service, you will want to mention it to them. Mostly this will be a sidebar conversation -- zipper down, hair out of clips, missing ribbon, wrong belt ...

Standards_of_Civilian_Dress_and_Prohibited_Attire.pdf

Response by Sgt John Mizell made Apr 15 at 2022 3:33 PM

Sgt John Mizell — Fri, 15 Apr 2022 15:33:22 -0400

Stay out of her bussiness, I would be asking myself what your motives were.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made May 16 at 2022 12:23 AM

Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis — Mon, 16 May 2022 00:23:43 -0400

We are in curious times. Personnel identified as military (or perhaps even government employees) can actually be at risk. Risk Management is advising that members who are travelling should blend in. The person in this picture would blend in perfectly...no military personnel here, this is not the soldier you're looking for, move along.

Response by PO1 William Van Syckle made May 28 at 2022 10:45 AM

PO1 William Van Syckle — Sat, 28 May 2022 10:45:10 -0400

I see nothing wrong with this civilian clothing. She blends right in to today’s environment as she is supposed to do. Don’t get another female to talk to her and you need to catch up with the times…..

Response by Amn Michele Garza-Mathis made May 29 at 2022 3:18 AM

Amn Michele Garza-Mathis — Sun, 29 May 2022 03:18:23 -0400

This happened to me as a young Airmen. It was my first shirt who addressed me. I was young 19 years old. I was wearing my Dazy Dukes. I didn’t take him seriously but could have been in a lot of trouble. I’m not sure with todays military how it works anymore. When I was Active Duty I was under the impression that the Military owned me and that I was government property whether on duty or not!

Response by SSgt Cynthia Hamilton made May 29 at 2022 9:56 AM

SSgt Cynthia Hamilton — Sun, 29 May 2022 09:56:54 -0400

Relax, she's fine. I'm an old Vietnam era vet, and styles change. Your 30 years in is showing in your query.

Response by SSG John Firneno made May 29 at 2022 12:10 PM

SSG John Firneno — Sun, 29 May 2022 12:10:42 -0400

You do nothing, what someone wears as far a civilian attire is not your concern. Unless they are wearing some sort of grossly inappropriate or antigovernment. You don't worry about it. That would be called Toxic Leadership IF you are referring to the picture you are out of line for even considering it. This SOLDIER is wearing clothes that anyone could wear you need to a take a long hard look at what about this actually bothers you. This seems to be a you issue because she is breaking no regulation and nothing she is wearing is inappropriate. You should check in with your MRT and do an exercise about identifying iceberg. This has nothing to do with her and everything to do with you.

Response by PFC James Edward VERNON jr made May 29 at 2022 3:48 PM

PFC James Edward VERNON jr — Sun, 29 May 2022 15:48:02 -0400

GET OVER IT, UNLESS UMJMJ HAS A REG THA FORBIDS THAT TYPE OF CLOTHING ON TDY TRAVEL, LET THE MATTTER RESOLVE ITSELF. AS A "TEAM" WE GENERALLY SHOULD "BACK" OUR TEAMMATES. WE ALLOW THEM TO BE "COMFORTABLE" WHILE IN-TRANSIT.

Response by SSG Brian Whitney made May 29 at 2022 4:03 PM

SSG Brian Whitney — Sun, 29 May 2022 16:03:30 -0400

She looks fine. Let it go old man

Response by Capt Rich Buckley made May 30 at 2022 2:29 PM

Capt Rich Buckley — Mon, 30 May 2022 14:29:08 -0400

First, is she negatively impacting your TDY assignment’s task in some identifiable way? If the answer is yes, evaluate how that holds true. One response is to compliment her work, and give her more responsibility in incremental stages. See if she begins to evaluate herself. If her dress is effecting her work she will discover it by knowing something’s not right and seek your input. It may be through indirectly seeking your input.

Listen to what she communicates. “Sir, these guys seem stand-offish and talk past me like I’m not in the room.”

Did you meet with them before hand off duty, or was your first meeting on duty?

“Yes I met with them before hand off duty?”

How where they then?

“Friendly.”

I think you may be experiencing that you are or may be being type cast, which is unfair as hell to you. One way to deal with that is dress differently to make the statement you command respect beyond your rank. Try it and report back. Dazzle them with a perception of total commitment. It’s not fun to do it, but it works if you want it to.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made May 30 at 2022 7:08 PM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Mon, 30 May 2022 19:08:11 -0400

CH (MAJ) William Beaver,
I Can See The Problem You're Confronted With
And Just Happen To Have The Solution;
Send Her To Me; Within A Week I Should Be Able To
Straighten Her Out, Lay Her Flat n Her Back.
AND Jump Her Bones.
Might Not Do You Much Good
But It Certainly Would For ME.

Response by SSgt David M. made May 30 at 2022 10:00 PM

SSgt David M. — Mon, 30 May 2022 22:00:52 -0400

You are treading on that thin line that no matter what you say you will be found WRONG! JAG will tell you that unless travel time is ordered to be done in uniform that civilian clothes no matter how you feel about them is a personal and private matter. I agree with you about dressing Professionally but that is only allowed in Uniform not civilian cloths. While I worked at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing in Washington, DC; the Director attempted to get a 'Dress Code' but our Legal Office turned down every list that was put out except for one. They came up with a very vague guide that could only apply to the Safety of the Employees. Loose clothing and flip flops were banned due to equipment and chemicals in use as well as fork lifts being in use in both buildings. I wish you all the best of luck but warn you to go careful in whatever you decide to do. Let the CO take the lead! LOL ;-)

Response by SFC Rollie Hubbard made May 30 at 2022 11:16 PM

SFC Rollie Hubbard — Mon, 30 May 2022 23:16:18 -0400

You should get a female supervisor to address it you need to back off.

Response by SP5 Timothy Cooper made May 31 at 2022 2:47 AM

SP5 Timothy Cooper — Tue, 31 May 2022 02:47:33 -0400

When I was in I the less military you looked the better off you are an we are older

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2022 3:46 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 May 2022 03:46:00 -0400

Is there a policy for civilian attire during TDY? I find most units have some sort of policy, LOI, or even an email prescribing appropriate CIV attire enroute. I used to wear sweat pants as an LT, before my 1SG said something. I don’t see a problem with addressing any Soldier, regardless of gender, if their appearance seems unprofessional during duty hours. It’s all about the approach, but as leaders we should do something.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made May 31 at 2022 11:29 AM

SFC Jim Ruether — Tue, 31 May 2022 11:29:03 -0400

I will have to agree with MCPO Collins on this young lady's attire. While its shoddy and goes against my dress code, my daughter wears the same thing, although she did agree to keep the leg holes smaller.
My daughter is one of the most Patriotic young women on the face of the earth. She follows the news and forms her opinion on the positions and policies of our candidates and our nations. So if she wants to look like 90% of the other college kids in school and put her uniform on and wear it proudly. then her dad can look the other way or make subtle suggestion every once in a while then so be it. I can live with that.

Response by CPL Sheila Lewis made May 31 at 2022 12:13 PM

CPL Sheila Lewis — Tue, 31 May 2022 12:13:46 -0400

I see a civilian female...nothing Military here at all.

Response by SP5 Renee Reif made May 31 at 2022 4:18 PM

SP5 Renee Reif — Tue, 31 May 2022 16:18:15 -0400

WTF is wrong with you. Unless there is a specific dress code in writing up front, and unless MALES are going to be held to a business standard, then back off. #FthePatriarchy #StopReligiousNationalism #StopMSAandHarassment. You're looking for a battle where there isn't one, and choosing a subordinate female victim who has NO choice. She is a captive to your own personal bias. Back off.

Response by PO1 David M Burns made May 31 at 2022 9:54 PM

PO1 David M Burns — Tue, 31 May 2022 21:54:14 -0400

If this was in the army, I would leave it alone because of all the stupid regulations that have been issued on everything from smoking pot to transgenders. and when in civilian clothes, well, I would still leave it alone.
.

Response by SGT Michael Hardy made Jun 1 at 2022 12:41 PM

SGT Michael Hardy — Wed, 01 Jun 2022 12:41:33 -0400

Well did the TDY location have some dress requirements? Did your orders for TDY have something in them about dress requirements in the host area? Other than that it looks acceptable to me.

Response by PO3 Carri Williams made Jun 1 at 2022 8:01 PM

PO3 Carri Williams — Wed, 01 Jun 2022 20:01:56 -0400

Professionalism is the way to handle it. Let everyone know that their travel attire should be jeans or khakis and a polo shirt or a shirt with a collar. You can make it not sexist when men can not have their shirts unbuttoned passed say 2 inches. Women cannot have their shirts open past 2 inches either. If it helps I’m a female and handling it female to female is much easier.

Response by Sgt Jake Middlebrook made Jun 1 at 2022 10:41 PM

Sgt Jake Middlebrook — Wed, 01 Jun 2022 22:41:03 -0400

If that is her in the photo and she is simply on travel and not going to business meetings and the like. she is dressed in a very common manner for young women. If going to business meetings I think you can reasonably request she dress business casual or if she is formally presenting then business formal. Even then you may think her outfits are too tight and she needs to button one more button. If the definition of appropriately dressed is what is generally accepted in the situation then she is by that definition appropriately dressed and if you suggest otherwise it will be at your peril not hers.

Response by SPC Rachel Rodriguez made Jun 1 at 2022 11:56 PM

SPC Rachel Rodriguez — Wed, 01 Jun 2022 23:56:53 -0400

Imo that is overstepping your boundaries 100%. My question to you is, why are you so focused on this ONE subordinate

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Jun 6 at 2022 2:22 AM

SSG Gregg Mourizen — Mon, 06 Jun 2022 02:22:55 -0400

If there is an in-writing formal dress code, just hand it to her.
If not just tell her to look up "professional atire, and ask her to adhere to it
Tight is not as much of an issue, as the holes.

I had a young female who was dressing like a high schooler. You know, tight T-shirts, skinny jeans with holes. I confirmed the female dress code standards with a higher level female in our group, and waited for the right moment.
The young lady was getting frustrated with soime of the attitudes she was getting, and I took advantage of the opportunity. I told her this is why we have a dress code. As she approached the units, many of the NCO's kept thinking she was either a dependent or military, and they kept treating her like a kid. I showed her the dress code, and told her if she dresses the part, their attitudes would change. I just reminded her no T-shirts and slacks.
Once she started to see the changes in attitudes, she came back and thanked me.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2022 3:50 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jun 2022 15:50:33 -0400

If this is the young lady on TDY travel, is there a written policy for ACA? Does she plan to work in that attire during TDY.

Perhaps this young lady is having a hard time obtaining and/or maintaining serviceable clothing. If she is your direct report, remind her of the need to present a professional appearance when authorized to travel and wear acceptable civilian attire. Perhaps sweatpants would be more professional.

I never care about too tight or too low as that is an opinion with no measurement standard. However, serviceable is an appropriate standard that the army understands and appreciates in common language.

Uniform of the day is civilian clothing and should be serviceable.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2022 6:54 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Jul 2022 18:54:41 -0400

Does your organization have something similar to a Blue Book, outlining unit standards? This can provide guidelines as to what may be appropriate for official travel in civilian clothing.

Response by Cpl Samuel Pope Sr made Jul 4 at 2022 2:49 AM

Cpl Samuel Pope Sr — Mon, 04 Jul 2022 02:49:56 -0400

No, no, and no. I'm 30 years older than my (Militarily Connected), female travel companion. In today's eyes, she's either my wife, a 'casual', a 'fling' or my daughter. Either way, we are connected At The Hip. Anything that happens to her Is On Me. I'm "Papa". Whatever that means to whomever, wherever we are. Like it or NOT. There are Too many examples to avoid the wrong reading.
Do I just walk away when someone tries/tests the relationship? Do I leave her with it?
The strong must protect the weak.
The weak Must Accept Appropriate Guidance from the strong. On all associated situations.
"Well, nothing has happened to her."
Yet.

Response by 1SG Kelvin D. Mayes made Jul 8 at 2022 10:57 AM

1SG Kelvin D. Mayes — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 10:57:22 -0400

I served on an SF Team and we traveled a lot, the easiest way to do it is to put out a policy that in order to travel you have to wear business casual. She represents the Army and should not look like a millennial on holiday. If she needs reasons, that is simple. When you get off the plane and met by your receiving team, the first impression means a lot. If her desire is to dress like a hobo...maybe she needs a new line of work. She should set the example, not be pictured like this as "what not to do". My Team Sergeant did it, I did it when I was a Team Sergeant. It just makes sense. Now, on her time off, after work, she can dress any way she wants. Attending after hour socials, dinners, etc., she is a rep that needs to be professional.

Response by CPT Robert Swain made Jul 9 at 2022 8:51 AM

CPT Robert Swain — Sat, 09 Jul 2022 08:51:53 -0400

While traveling as a civilian you are not a team! She can dress any way she wants and frankly looks perfectly normal in todays society. NONE of your business! Get a life!

Response by MAJ Fred Zacher made Jul 10 at 2022 9:33 AM

MAJ Fred Zacher — Sun, 10 Jul 2022 09:33:09 -0400

Let everyone know that whoever sees their travel documents from the TSA check point to the hotel clerk will know they represent the military. They should dress to show pride in their unit and the uniform they represent.

Response by SGT Ruben Lozada made Jul 10 at 2022 2:16 PM

SGT Ruben Lozada — Sun, 10 Jul 2022 14:16:40 -0400

Good afternoon Sir. Excellent question that You bring up here. I believe that a Military while on TDY should dress accordingly to the uniform regulations. But, I'm sure She knows way better than to dresd like that. In My opinion those jeans are okay for teens to wear because that's the latest fashion. But, not okay for adults to wear because it doesn't look professional. If She's on TDY then that means She's still active duty. But, it's cheaper to put more than one Military member on the same itinerary, because the Military is all about saving Money whenever they can. Even if it means budget cuts and downsizing also known as HYT ans RCP, which has happened before.

Response by SP5 Wick Humble made Jul 10 at 2022 9:13 PM

SP5 Wick Humble — Sun, 10 Jul 2022 21:13:48 -0400

Don't think you can win this one, buddy! Let it be!

Response by LCDR Rex Schildhouse made Jul 11 at 2022 12:43 PM

LCDR Rex Schildhouse — Mon, 11 Jul 2022 12:43:17 -0400

Welcome to "The New Society." There are some battles that are best simply to be left alone. Years ago I took on a female officer junior to me for wearing totally inappropriate dress into the squadron spaces and then changing into her uniform in the locker room. She changed out of uniform before leaving for lunch and at the end of the day. Complained to her, the XO, and the CO and found myself on the hot seat. While the CO and XO agreed with me, and many of our male peers enjoyed the view, no one was willing to face the issue down. Her statement was that her U.S. Military uniform did not accent her physical features. Recommend you grin and bear it.

Response by SGT Kenneth Rand made Jul 12 at 2022 2:06 AM

SGT Kenneth Rand — Tue, 12 Jul 2022 02:06:46 -0400

It's not your job to pick your subordinates civilian clothing. If civilian clothing is being worn and it's after normal hours i.e. personal time is keep your mouth shut.

Response by SPC Jared Robbins made Jul 12 at 2022 8:36 PM

SPC Jared Robbins — Tue, 12 Jul 2022 20:36:23 -0400

This depends on how well she knows you and is comfortable discussing anything personal with you. I’d say a female of equal rank to yourself in on the situation and let her handle it.

Response by MSgt Allan Kirkham made Sep 6 at 2022 3:17 PM

MSgt Allan Kirkham — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 15:17:28 -0400

Off duty In a travel situation should not matter . She is fully clothed in the fasion of today. You are 30 years older than her & seem to have an issue with it. If it were a formal affair it would be different.

Response by Sgt Stu Kopelman made Sep 9 at 2022 8:33 AM

Sgt Stu Kopelman — Fri, 09 Sep 2022 08:33:09 -0400

Great question, and I applaud your humility in asking it. I recall an answer I got to a similar question a brilliant Physicist gave me after asking him a question why he was dressed in a business suit. He simply replied, "I have to impress the businessmen." Without going into detail, he was simply saying, "Would you wear a bikini to a church service or a tie and suit to swim in the ocean"? He never judged me for the hippie clothes I was wearing, but simply called into question how appropriate I was for the occasion. He was right, and without insistence or force, I changed my clothes.

We are all alike in degree; we can be influenced; we can be persuaded, we can be led by example as this Physicist led me. The real motivator in doing what is appropriate is not dressing outwardly, but dressing the heart to want to do what is right.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2022 10:29 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Sep 2022 10:29:58 -0400

Is there a command policy that states what is expected as acceptable or inacceptable wear for official travel? My 1A unit had a policy letter that spelled out business casual, and what can and cannot be worn. If the unit or its hierarchy does not have one, then she can wear the ripped jeans and such.

Response by SSG Jack Scott made Sep 9 at 2022 6:07 PM

SSG Jack Scott — Fri, 09 Sep 2022 18:07:18 -0400

Good luck correction a female in public in this day and age! You won’t survive

Response by PO2 Bobbi Chandler made Sep 9 at 2022 7:57 PM

PO2 Bobbi Chandler — Fri, 09 Sep 2022 19:57:56 -0400

Most women in the military want to be respected so I would just have a talk with a senior female Chief or even a female Officer if they're personable. I was in and had to travel with an absolutely floozy that literally said and meant that she only joined the Navy for the seamen and not spelled that way. She was a very toxic person as well.

Response by SFC Eddy Meador made Sep 11 at 2022 12:39 PM

SFC Eddy Meador — Sun, 11 Sep 2022 12:39:48 -0400

Unless you are traveling with the subordinate I would leave it alone. If you are traveling, then do not associate with the subordinate during the travel. If they ask why explain that for your own comfort and to keep from being accused wrongly of being in the company of someone, you prefer to keep a distance.

Response by SSG Jason Neumann made Oct 26 at 2022 12:53 PM

SSG Jason Neumann — Wed, 26 Oct 2022 12:53:54 -0400

I would have to Chaplain, it's nothing to address especially if it is the picture you posted. Also, if you posted the picture, I would have at least blacked out the face. Anyways, while in transit to TDY, you can wear clothing that you see fit. However, if it is a function you are attending and there is such a dress code or there is an OPORD or memorandum directing the state of attire that is where you could say something and enforce it. If I am traveling TDY, I'll wearing something comfy. What if I wore swear pants and a hoodie, would that be bad taste? In the case of this young woman, she is just dressing what is comfortable for her. I really done know many females who like to wear Dockers, khaki pants and a tucked in polo shirt with their hair in a bun while in transit for TDY, (sarcasm because that is what you might see a senior leader in, minus hair bun lol). Anyways, I think we beat this dead horse into the ground. As long as our Soldiers aren't wearing a banana hammock/ tube top or string bikini while on public transportation but hey, if it feels right, why fight it? Lol

Response by SPC Laura Mitchell made Dec 5 at 2022 4:58 AM

SPC Laura Mitchell — Mon, 05 Dec 2022 04:58:55 -0500

One of my bigger pet peeves is torn jeans! When I was her age, and my jeans started showing wear and thinning in the knees, they became cut-offs. On the bright side, she's not wearing leopard-spotted pajamas. It's NOT about gender; it's about presentation.

Response by SA Pastor David Langenberg made Jan 3 at 2023 8:49 AM

SA Pastor David Langenberg — Tue, 03 Jan 2023 08:49:14 -0500

Real quick, like was said earlier, unless on your TDY orders the dress code is addressed, it isn't your job to tell her how to dress. I have been places where looking local or at least non- military was recommended by the upper ranks. That was more for safety. Most TDY orders I ever had (this was a long time ago) read on the orders to dress in Navy Blues or Whites when traveling.

Response by Maj Gordon Hunter made Jan 16 at 2023 12:46 AM

Maj Gordon Hunter — Mon, 16 Jan 2023 00:46:18 -0500

Shut up.

Response by Capt John Schmitt made Jan 19 at 2023 2:40 AM

Capt John Schmitt — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 02:40:06 -0500

Appears to be OK. She isn't attention seeking. BUT, such issues are also dependant on rank. Expectations of appropriate civilian attire does and should be a bit different. As you travel as a team, and her attire / appearance trouble you, I would surmise that a discussion of her point of view or impressions, and your non-judgemental expectations could be envisioned. Though, first discussing your impression, expectations with a trusted female mutual associate close in age / rank if available - to discern who or if this should be discussed - or "live and let live Maj." might be the 'final answer'.
She appears to be a nice travel buddy. Though that comment is likely to draw grief from more 'sensitive' members.

Response by PO3 James Czerniak made Mar 10 at 2023 1:25 AM

PO3 James Czerniak — Fri, 10 Mar 2023 01:25:19 -0500

If you are the CC, you write a memo for record outlining proper dress for official TDYs. When I was in, every duty station I was ever assigned had a proper werlar of cities during official TDYs memo. If your unit doea not have such memo on file, there's not much you can do

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2023 1:27 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Mar 2023 13:27:21 -0400

Previous post disappeared midpoint. I say again:
Take the photo to JAG and they will explain the parameters of your UCMJ legitimacy (or lack thereof) in this circumstance.

Response by MSgt Brian Williams made Mar 21 at 2023 11:45 AM

MSgt Brian Williams — Tue, 21 Mar 2023 11:45:04 -0400

This is the hill you want to die on? Let it go. She looks like her civilian contemporaries. If she looks like a bum in uniform, that's different.

Response by SFC Jeffery Lanter made Mar 21 at 2023 3:11 PM

SFC Jeffery Lanter — Tue, 21 Mar 2023 15:11:34 -0400

Wow not sure about the question at hand unfortunately, but I am appalled by all the snarky to downright rude comments from brothers/sisters in arms. Very disheartening to see such petty remarks made back and forth to one another. I regret to say it is on all levels, old, young, high ranks, low ranks, men, women, operators, Soldiers, Airmen, Seamen, etc. DISGUSTING. Rant over, grow up.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Mar 21 at 2023 7:17 PM

Capt Mark Strobl — Tue, 21 Mar 2023 19:17:07 -0400

Fashion migrates. “Appropriate” today would have been outrageous by yesteryear’s standards. Unless you have an explicitly defined dress code, might want to let this sleeping dog rest.

Response by SSG Douglas Shaffer made Mar 21 at 2023 8:07 PM

SSG Douglas Shaffer — Tue, 21 Mar 2023 20:07:24 -0400

Have the command write up a TDY traveling standards of attire. this way it doesn't just apply to your team but other teams as well, dress, slacks no holes in the jeans and that it is emphasized as professional traveling TDY. I am sure that the command can come up with some photos of men and women attire.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Mar 21 at 2023 10:01 PM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Tue, 21 Mar 2023 22:01:42 -0400

WELL.... If You Honestly Belie Her Clothing To Be Unacceptable,
Stop Looking At Her.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2023 9:51 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Mar 2023 09:51:07 -0400

I believe that for your career's sake you should steer clear of this. These are dangerous times for the faithful and that is especially true of their ministers. The "bad guys" in this story could easily say "If you weren't "leering" at her in the first case how would you have noticed her clothes were too tight and her breasts a little too exposed?
Trust me when I say that these issues will not remain static. However, nothing but pain can come from acting upon your very valid concerns.

Response by SP6 Peter Kreutzfeldt made Mar 27 at 2023 6:03 PM

SP6 Peter Kreutzfeldt — Mon, 27 Mar 2023 18:03:09 -0400

I don't for the world of me understand why anyone would cut holes in the legs of a fine pair of Jeans. I spend 6 months at MacDill Airbase camping and I have seen things that defy any military standard und the UCMJ from my days in the 60s.

Response by TSgt David Olson made Apr 2 at 2023 7:07 PM

TSgt David Olson — Sun, 02 Apr 2023 19:07:46 -0400

Her views and your views are thirty years apart. Hate to say it but times have changed. From the photo, I see nothing that associates her with the military, therefore she is not bringing discredit to herself or the military. Leave her alone, and I'm guessing that she is a good soldier or she would not be going on a TDY. Let me say this to you. Before I retired twenty-odd years ago I was an E-6 in the USAF Reserve, law enforcement. I was assigned to an AD unit of security police as an IMA. I was 57, 58, and 59 age-wise, my last few years before retirement at 60. The shift I supervised had several young female airmen assigned. One had a stud in her tongue, and I was told several other places. One day while in the chow hall, this particular airman approached me and asked if she could join me. Naturally, I said yes and we began to talk, though I realized from the start she was going to test me . She started by inviting me to an off-base roadhouse popular with lower-ranking airmen, she went on to say there was to be a "wet t-shirt contest". She elaborated she had won twice in a row. I politely declined, with a smile, that my days of wet t-shirt contests were a thing of the past. My way of letting her know that I saw nothing wrong with her in the contest. Some other female airmen also entered. Was she bringing discredit upon herself or the USAF, I didn't think so. She was a female airman circa 1998.

Response by Sgt Bob Corridan made Apr 14 at 2023 9:27 AM

Sgt Bob Corridan — Fri, 14 Apr 2023 09:27:19 -0400

One side of me says "leave it alone as long as she does not present herself as being in the military". Conversely the UCMJ does state in broad terms that when in civilian attire the articles of clothing must be appropriate for the occasion (whatever that means). Going to the beach in torn jeans may be appropriate. Conversely catching a flight from point A to point B her attire may or may not be appropriate. If everyone on the plane is in T shirts and Jimmy Buffett shorts, I guess her attire would be OK, The flip side to all of this is that she is traveling on the government dime and as such I think you would be ok to simply bring it to her attention that looking like a skid row tent person from L.A. doesn't cut it. But the bigger thing on all of this is WTF honey,,,,you are a grown adult why in God's name would you even put on a pair of jeans that are ripped all to hell...grow up and be an adult...you are not going to a punk concert.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2023 6:46 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Apr 2023 18:46:29 -0400

I see this is an old post. What did you decide to do?

Response by CMSgt Richard Regel made Apr 15 at 2023 9:26 AM

CMSgt Richard Regel — Sat, 15 Apr 2023 09:26:02 -0400

Butt out. Don’t sit with her when traveling if you’re uncomfortable with her apparel choices. If she shows up to work in a uniform that needs improvement you can comment on it otherwise leave her be.

Response by SFC R. Lee Linebarger made Apr 15 at 2023 11:23 AM

SFC R. Lee Linebarger — Sat, 15 Apr 2023 11:23:11 -0400

She ain't naked so don't complain

Response by Sgt David Scott made Apr 15 at 2023 11:36 AM

Sgt David Scott — Sat, 15 Apr 2023 11:36:31 -0400

This is 2023 and things (policies) have changed a lot since I was on Active Duty, 1968 to 1971. While in the "Old Corps" we were not allowed to travel off base in our Utilities as is done today, which I disagree with, but then you may find I disagree with a lot of what is happening in Our Country. We traveled in our Uniform and during that time you might have read or experienced some resistance to us. If that is her picture, I see nothing wrong with her attire and it's not "work clothes", Utilities that are designed for work on base and when on official assignments, so to speak, on foreign lands while in action.

Response by SSG Jeff Jones made Apr 16 at 2023 9:20 AM

SSG Jeff Jones — Sun, 16 Apr 2023 09:20:19 -0400

Although I'm not a big fan of the torn/ripped pants look, this particular hill isn't worth taking. I'd let it go, sir.

Response by 1LT Neal Schwartz made Apr 16 at 2023 10:28 AM

1LT Neal Schwartz — Sun, 16 Apr 2023 10:28:37 -0400

Is there a regulation against it? Show her the regulation. It's not what you want to see, it's what the regulation specifies. One of you could be wrong.

Response by 1SG Dean Mcbride (MPER) (CPHR) made Apr 17 at 2023 12:15 AM

1SG Dean Mcbride (MPER) (CPHR) — Mon, 17 Apr 2023 00:15:25 -0400

Sometimes it is best to "blend-in" with the rest of the "world"... In my opinion, she fits in well with the rest of society and nothing should be said about her attire. Additionally, there is nothing in any of the Army Regs that I recall reading that addressed a dress code for civilian attire. As for the tops being too low cut and the pants being too tight... You need to "walk carefully" Major, with that kind of attitude it's not a matter of "will you be accused" but one of "how soon or when will you be accused". By the way, you represent a Team when you are on duty performing official duties. When you are off duty or traveling for official business, you are no longer a Team. On those occasions, she is a private citizen and deserves the proper respect that her superior (that's you Major Beaver!) should be giving her. One more thought: I normally would not disagree with my senior officers, however, I don't agree with Captain Ball and Captain McGowan.-- I would not expect one of my NCO leaders (male or female) to correct ANY SOLDIER unless the issue VIOLATES CLEARLY ESTABLISHED REGULATIONS. If by some remote chance there is a regulation that clearly defines a dress code for travel in civilian attire and if it specifically forbids the clothing she is wearing, then go ahead and address the specific dress code violations.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2023 11:36 AM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:36:00 -0400

Dressing attractively is not a problem unless it is abnormally revealing (don't go on libo in your underwear) or eccentric (don't go on libo in anime cosplay, unlike the last one, I have had to deal with this). The only complaint I could see with the picture is the ripped jeans, but even then, it is common enough now that civilians won't bat an eyelash at it. It also depends on area and task, but I don't see anything worth rocking the boat over myself.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2023 6:06 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Apr 2023 18:06:51 -0400

Some units have travel regs that may layout or specify what can be worn.

Although (and this is my take, having traveled in "lo-profile clothing" in order to "blend in". . . While wearing 5.11 cargo pants because they were "khaki-colored" and not blue jeans. . .), if she looks like a civilian while traveling, hey, that's kind of the point.

Response by SMSgt James Fry made Apr 18 at 2023 1:48 AM

SMSgt James Fry — Tue, 18 Apr 2023 01:48:45 -0400

My question is did you have her permission to post a picture of her on social media?? Clothes are not a problem.

Response by SP5 Felix Girard made Apr 20 at 2023 2:31 AM

SP5 Felix Girard — Thu, 20 Apr 2023 02:31:58 -0400

Fortunately we didn't seem to have these issues in the 60's (I know, ancient times) because no female or woman would want to appear in public with tattered jeans (and they were certainly not "in fashion"). Some may say fashion has evolved downwards in taste. I say onward and upwards.

Response by Sgt Kevin Stiggy made May 24 at 2023 2:27 PM

Sgt Kevin Stiggy — Wed, 24 May 2023 14:27:52 -0400

I say quit being a Karen and let the female dress as she wants off base. It’s people like you who make the military a bad place. If it’s on base then that’s a different story. Go enjoy your life and stop worrying about regulations

Response by SGT Christopher Sigafoos made Jun 13 at 2023 12:53 AM

SGT Christopher Sigafoos — Tue, 13 Jun 2023 00:53:53 -0400

It comes down to the TDY orders. If the orders specify business casual attire for travel, then by all means correct her. If the orders simply say "Civilian attire authorized," however, I would probably hold off on saying anything.

Response by PO3 Herman Schloss made Jun 27 at 2023 4:50 AM

PO3 Herman Schloss — Tue, 27 Jun 2023 04:50:20 -0400

The fact that her clothes are an issue for you tells me she already has a sharp complaint. It doesn't matter what you want. It is civilian clothes and she is free to wear what she wants. If she is at the pool it's the same thing. You can't insist she wear a bathing suit from the 1920s because you don't like current fashion trends and want to enforce your personal preferences on a soldier.

Response by SGT Jodi WittBailey made Jul 7 at 2023 9:09 AM

SGT Jodi WittBailey — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 09:09:49 -0400

Unless the SM is on duty, what she is wearing does not constitute inappropriate attire while traveling. Bases have their standards of civilian attire on post. When I served, we were instructed not to wear uniform or display items identifying us as military during the latter years of my service to avoid being threatened. Early in my service years though, when traveling by official military transportation, even if commercial air etc we did have to be in uniform.

Check 670-1.

Response by PO3 Ted G made Jul 13 at 2023 10:56 AM

PO3 Ted G — Thu, 13 Jul 2023 10:56:25 -0400

The rule should be that if you can't wear it on base you probably should not be traveling in it. The photo you show has a woman in clothing that is ripped or has holes in it, that is not allowed on base and should not be allowed for travel, same goes for travailing in PT gear including clothing that does not have pockets. These rules should apply to everyone regardless of gender, you never know when your travel might be diverted and you might have to go onto the closest base for support. You can toss that out as a general travel reminder to everyone. On another note, "Why do my cloths have to have pockets if I am not allowed to put anything in them", because that is the regulation.

Response by MSgt Mason Manner made Jul 13 at 2023 7:14 PM

MSgt Mason Manner — Thu, 13 Jul 2023 19:14:08 -0400

I remember back in the 1970s when General Jones was CSUSAF an aide very excitedly informed him that a A1C had been named MISS NUDE AMERICA to which General Jones queried was she in uniform at the time?

Response by SFC Dwayne Barbee made Jul 23 at 2023 11:48 AM

SFC Dwayne Barbee — Sun, 23 Jul 2023 11:48:30 -0400

If she is off duty, then you should check yourself. What I see is a clash of generations and probably religious ideologies. If she is in violation of unit rules, then inform her of that fact and move on.

Response by HN Chris R. made Jul 23 at 2023 1:54 PM

HN Chris R. — Sun, 23 Jul 2023 13:54:44 -0400

If Bra and/or panties are covered and cannot be seen, leave it alone.

Response by SGT Keith Boettcher made Jul 31 at 2023 12:33 AM

SGT Keith Boettcher — Mon, 31 Jul 2023 00:33:53 -0400

Hey the way people dress in public is their morales and ethics of self respect.
That’s why I like going to a Joint Base. You can right off the bat tell who is in the USAF, USMC, USCG, USN and then there is the USArmy. They stick out like a sore thumb. Is specially their depends. They can not be compared or matched to any other branch of military services. Technically they are a disgrace and they don’t care what others think of them n public. This is because the USArmy Command has not morales, ethics, self-respect, and most of all pride and “BALLS”

Response by LTC Karen McKay made Aug 3 at 2023 9:50 AM

LTC Karen McKay — Thu, 03 Aug 2023 09:50:09 -0400

I'd say you are on the proverbial horns of a dilemma, Major. Your subordinate is representative of our cultural degeneration. She just doesn't know any better.
As an old soldier and the daughter of the age when ladies wore Sunday-best and men wore suits and ties to fly commercial, I confirm that you are absolutely correct. But in this political climate, you might be shooting yourself in the foot to try to do anything about it directly. You'd wind up facing an EEO complaint or worse. She might be unidentifiable as a soldier dressed like that, but I guarantee she'll get in a conversation with another passenger or a crew member and the truth will come out. Maybe you can pass her off as CID or CI operating undercover? Can you get her reassigned somewhere that she cannot embarrass the service as part of your mission? Is there a senior female in your chain of command who could lay some effective counseling on your wayward subordinate?
You can't do anything about her lifestyle off duty, but when she's traveling on official business, she needs to be squared away. Can you get your orders cut requiring travel in uniform? Good luck.

Response by CPO Melvin Miller made Aug 3 at 2023 11:17 AM

CPO Melvin Miller — Thu, 03 Aug 2023 11:17:42 -0400

This is the fashion toay sir. I am OG when you went TDY you went in dress unifrom during travel. You always set a good example of yourself. You arestill under contract to the military. That was then today is now. If you might have a problem etc. The best course of action is definately find a senior woman in her section that ypu might talk to. Than have her express her opinion first to you than see if she would go to the junior. As a supervisor in the past in the military and civilian world I have found that it helps to have someone close in rank and definately relatable.

Response by SSgt Robert Zahrowski made Aug 3 at 2023 4:14 PM

SSgt Robert Zahrowski — Thu, 03 Aug 2023 16:14:05 -0400

Heck unless you are trying to pimp her, get over it! As a chaplain, you need to realize modern dress today, and if it bothers you talk to her about it!

You said "Supervisor of mine what the best course of action is and was told that I should not be the one to address it" Then that is your supervisor's concern. Document the conversation and forget it unless there is an issue in the future.

Response by MSgt Wes Moody made Aug 3 at 2023 7:35 PM

MSgt Wes Moody — Thu, 03 Aug 2023 19:35:21 -0400

You mind your business

Response by MSgt Janice Trojan made Aug 4 at 2023 3:02 AM

MSgt Janice Trojan — Fri, 04 Aug 2023 03:02:54 -0400

We are ambassadors of USA. Middle east we don't show skin. Japan-well Mini skirts never died. That said. Holey Jeans, though fashionable here, are unkept. Europe and United Kingdom, have a dress code. MWR usually gives you a list of cultural norms.
old article:
https://www.stripes.com/news/new-dress-code-on-navy-bases-in-japan-applied-to-civilians-family-members-1.7318 2003. We "currently" are progressive(Hack, fur ball) but we need to respect other cultures. I am not keen to disrespect formal attire. I can be lazy to not do formal attire. Just a small shift what is acceptable in the East Coast vs what is acceptable in the West Coast.
I came to MC Chord AFB 1983. First duty station summer. Went to base theater in traditional Las Vegas attire. White wife-beater tank top, no bra. Daisy dukes cut off short-shorts with Thongs(shower clogs. Well I must have been a site to behold on my walk there. I went into theater and the usher said I was "obscene". I was FLOORED!!!!!!!! I am a proud Norwegian American and quite prudish. I kinda covered my chest and walked home.
MAJ Beaver the usher was probably enlisted volunteer-he said it best for me I was obscene. Just state the facts. We are ambassadors.

New dress code on Navy bases in Japan applied to civilians, family members

NAVAL AIR FACILITY ATSUGI, Japan — Civilian personnel and dependents on Navy bases in Japan will have to abide by a new dress code while on base.

Response by SPC John Estabrook made Aug 4 at 2023 6:26 AM

SPC John Estabrook — Fri, 04 Aug 2023 06:26:49 -0400

I'd leave it alone and let her dress the way she wants. The main issue is whether she does her job well.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2023 2:52 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Aug 2023 14:52:21 -0400

I was in about the time of WAFS (women who served). I even dated a couple and they were equals in my my estimation. Both where excellent workers and both were Forecasters of the year. I trained as well. One was assaulted and asked me for my opinion and she ended up giving the baby to a mixed (a miracle for all.) She told me whilst crying telling I supported her not matter what. God bless her Grammarly is not supported. Epilepsy sucks.

Response by Cpl George Matousek made Aug 5 at 2023 3:09 PM

Cpl George Matousek — Sat, 05 Aug 2023 15:09:28 -0400

I would talk to her as I would anyother troop, she should dress that reflets properly on the military. Semper Fi

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2023 4:39 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Aug 2023 16:39:08 -0400

The Commander or First Sergeant should provide written documentation (i.e. command policy letter or counseling for all) regarding what the Command constitutes as authorized appropriate business attire. Counsleling are not punitive, this could be a requirement for anyone to complete prior to traveling TDY or as an annual Commander's requirement. Then all parties traveling TDY will have an understanding of what is expected. Try to remember that not everyone were afforded or provided these lessons during their growing up years. A class on military bearing (i.e appearance) at all times would be appropriate during the next training event. Good luck.

Response by CPO Kurt Baschab made Aug 6 at 2023 1:31 AM

CPO Kurt Baschab — Sun, 06 Aug 2023 01:31:12 -0400

I would have to agree MCPO Collins , when he says, ALL I See is a attractive young woman dressed in contemporary fashion.
I myself would not say anything, I do not see a issue , I would leave the issue alone , I feel you would be only harming yourself, by walking into a possible Mine Field.
that being said ,
IF you Feel Really Strong about the Issue, I would make sure you do your research on Uniform regulation, and what is Appropriate to wear when in civilian attire, make sure you are on Solid Ground, you might even want to speak to a fellow female officer to get her perspective on this issue.
The Biggest Question I have is this,
is this the Hill you want to risk your career over , something I believe is not a issue .

One way to Approach this issue , is while you are travelling ask everyone who is with you, where do they see themselves in 10years.
then when they give you a answer, that they see themselves at a certain rank, job or position, you can start your job as a mentor, and start pointing out how everything we say, do, wear etc, is posted on a social media sight, in todays world, nothing goes away .

you can talk about how everything you wear, say, and do can comeback and hurt you, so it important to always be thinking about your Goals and dreams, so it always important not to say, do or wear any thing Inappropriate, that could prevent you from reaching and achieving your Goals in life.

it could be a nice polite conversation, where she feels like you are taking a interest in her career Goals, maybe even become her mentor

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Aug 6 at 2023 10:30 AM

SFC Kenneth Hunnell — Sun, 06 Aug 2023 10:30:23 -0400

What would you say if the service member was male?
Remind them that even though they are in civilian clothing, they still represent the service that they are in.

Response by SSG Keven Lahde made Aug 6 at 2023 10:35 AM

SSG Keven Lahde — Sun, 06 Aug 2023 10:35:04 -0400

Sorry Sir, but I see nothing wrong with this picture. Unless there is something screaming she is Military, leave it be. How do you now she is TDY? How do you know she is even military? Best thing is to is leave it be. Is she hurting you in anyway? Then let it go Sir.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2023 2:42 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Aug 2023 14:42:00 -0400

If this is creating an issue with good order and discipline you are obligated to act if you are in that soldier's chain of command. While you are actively on travel it is better to have a senior NCO make the on-spot correction. The truth of the matter is that this is often all that is needed to fix problems of this nature. If it does stop let your NCO have the win and leave it alone.
If it doesn't solve the problem and you are acting in a non-retaliatory manner have a female senior NCO with you during your counselling session. If necessary follow UCMJ guidelines and also advise your unit's JAG.
If you are not acting in good faith, if you are attempting to force the young soldier into an inappropriate relationship, or compel her to engage in any act that conflicts with her ethics, morals, or the UCMJ, I pray that they catch you and inflict the harshest penalty that can be meted out. This entire question when raised by a field grade officer, makes my fingers itchy and my BS detector go off. I am fed up with any soldiers (but especially female soldiers) becoming victims to UCMJ Article 120 violations and military sexual abuse. Any and all violators of these laws should fall down upon their knees and thank the good Lord that I am not the one meting out punishment for these crimes.

Response by Sgt Bob Corridan made Aug 6 at 2023 9:08 PM

Sgt Bob Corridan — Sun, 06 Aug 2023 21:08:29 -0400

Unless she is in violation of the code as the code is interpreted, not by you but by legal, then leave her alone...Whenever I fly commercial, not charter, I am vastly more concerned about the experience of the pilot and co-pilot, and the quality of the maintenance crew coupled with the weather than I am about some young girl being a young girl....in today's world we get more of headache on trunk carriers by some Karen or some overweight passenger taking up 2 seats because their backside is 2 axe handles wide.

Response by Sgt Don Dudas made Aug 7 at 2023 7:00 AM

Sgt Don Dudas — Mon, 07 Aug 2023 07:00:26 -0400

The main thing too me is to blend in while out of uniform. The less attention the better. Most females now wear what you described. While I'm guessing you stick it like a sore thumb if you dress in what the regulations say(ie Family Vacation Clark Griswald).

Response by SSG Dwight Thompson made Aug 7 at 2023 10:21 AM

SSG Dwight Thompson — Mon, 07 Aug 2023 10:21:22 -0400

How you knew she's in the military? Mind your own business unless you've been appointed the personal attire policy violators coordinator.

Response by PO2 Jimmie Shelnutt made Aug 7 at 2023 12:40 PM

PO2 Jimmie Shelnutt — Mon, 07 Aug 2023 12:40:34 -0400

In my years of service, nearly five decades ago, we could not travel in any clothing save a "dress" uniform, blues in winter, white in summer. If nothing in today's travel identifies the wearer as military, male or female, I would leave the bounds of good taste to the individual.

Response by SGT Erick Holmes made Aug 8 at 2023 6:21 AM

SGT Erick Holmes — Tue, 08 Aug 2023 06:21:44 -0400

Just a simple conversation should be able to handle that situation. Personally I don't see anything wrong with what she is wearing however, I've been out of the military for many years so my attire and thinking is different. I think just a quick chat to remind the female when your on tdy that you still have to dress accordingly. No need to make a big deal out of it unless this isn't the first time that you had to talk to the female then you have to go from there. Hope this helps.

Response by SPC Jon Parniawski made Aug 8 at 2023 9:36 AM

SPC Jon Parniawski — Tue, 08 Aug 2023 09:36:57 -0400

When I was in (the good 'old' army of the 80's until the early 90's), when travelling for ANY reason outside of official duty (TDY, leave, etc) it was REQUIRED to travel in civvies as not to blend in and make yourself a target. Even today, with all the terrorism and recruitment of soldiers to sell information or whatever...this should be a requirement. Soldiers, sailors, marines, and the af guys should be MADE to travel in civvies, but with todays military it might 'trigger' a lot of kids who want to show off their fatigues or simply draw attention to themselves as they like doing. Don't even get me started about the new 670-1 regs (ugh - it's almost sickening what they can get away with these days). Our military may be changing to keep with the times, and that's great, but it isn't better...it's worse.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2023 6:40 PM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Aug 2023 18:40:18 -0400

Small things like this are the reason so many people get out after their initial enlistment. There are much bigger issues to worry about and you are focused on something like this. It is unnecessary and not effecting the mission. The only person worried about it is you. Please sir, do us a favor and worry about taking care of your people, not their clothing.

Response by SPC William Snyder made Oct 18 at 2023 2:37 PM

SPC William Snyder — Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:37:49 -0400

THIS is what you have to worry about?

Response by SPC Mari Bingham made Oct 18 at 2023 3:08 PM

SPC Mari Bingham — Wed, 18 Oct 2023 15:08:04 -0400

As an older woman, I will suggest that you keep your trap shut. This young woman is in no way dressed inappropriately. You may WANT to see something different, but that's not your call. Since leaving the service I've travelled extensively for business and, unless I'm proceeding directly to a meeting upon deplaning, I will dress casually and comfortably. Air travel is uncomfortable enough without being shoehorned into someone else's standards of dress.

As to being a representative of the service while travelling, I was taught that only applies when in uniform. In civilian clothes, there's no way for anyone to know who you are. In fact, she could be an executive at Google for all anyone knows (yes, really).

More to the point, would you have an issue with a male subordinate travelling dressed as below? Be sure you're applying the same standard.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2023 10:36 PM

PV2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Oct 2023 22:36:11 -0400

You got Navy drag shows and this is what offend?

Response by SPC Daniel Dresen made Oct 19 at 2023 8:01 PM

SPC Daniel Dresen — Thu, 19 Oct 2023 20:01:22 -0400

If they are in an off-duty status while traveling on tdy, automatically you are in the wrong. You are sexualizing attire and there is no sugar coating this. Anything you say can be construed as a microaggression and a full on EO complaint. Whats that old fashioned phrase? Suck it up buttercup? This is a hill you don't even want to walk up, just do like Elsa and let it go. If they are in a duty status though, you can remind them of the appropriate regulations on appearance, and having witnesses may be a benefit to avoid this being construed as an EO complaint. All this is dependent on duty status. The summary... off-duty, don't approach, you are digging an EO grave. On duty, approach but use of support in form if regs and a witness are advisable. You are in a new Era and Gen Z individuals have more sensitivities than previous generations. I'm a social work student now... just imagine all the instructor complaints I've fielded from elementary and high schoolers.

Response by CPO Blain Meisterhans made Oct 20 at 2023 9:28 AM

CPO Blain Meisterhans — Fri, 20 Oct 2023 09:28:36 -0400

It’s a wonder anything in the military gets done any more. All you have to do is be nice and say something respectful. You don’t have to be condescending or disrespectful. That is if it bothers you that much. Otherwise get over it.

Response by Cpl Tim M made Oct 20 at 2023 2:37 PM

Cpl Tim M — Fri, 20 Oct 2023 14:37:05 -0400

Mind your own damn business.

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Oct 20 at 2023 2:46 PM

SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM — Fri, 20 Oct 2023 14:46:06 -0400

I ALL DEPENDS ON THE COMMAND DRESS CODE. YOU MIGHT WANT TO WATCH YOUR LANE. SOME PEOPLE JUST DRESS LIKE THAT. I KNOW WE HAD AN SES WHO WORN SHORT TOPS AND I WILL TELL YOU THAT THE MEN LEADERSHIP WASN’T GOIN G TO GO THERE.

SHE STILL WEARING WHAT SHE WANTS..

LIKE BEATING A DEAD HORSE THESE DAYS.

Response by LTC Jorge Cordero made Nov 5 at 2023 6:15 AM

LTC Jorge Cordero — Sun, 05 Nov 2023 06:15:18 -0500

I do not see anything wrong with her travel attire. Is she also a Chaplin? As a Chaplin are you projecting your own religious beliefs' on her?

Response by SPC Andrew Cundiff made Dec 13 at 2023 2:37 PM

SPC Andrew Cundiff — Wed, 13 Dec 2023 14:37:41 -0500

of all of the things you could correct a soldier on, I don't think civilian dress is one of them. unless they changed the regulations in the last fifteen years since I ETS'd.

Response by SGT Kenneth Potts made Dec 13 at 2023 7:28 PM

SGT Kenneth Potts — Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:28:54 -0500

Nothing you can do. Unless she has orders stating she must be in uniform.

Response by Sgt L S made Dec 14 at 2023 9:23 AM

Sgt L S — Thu, 14 Dec 2023 09:23:10 -0500

To me, this is a no-brainer. If it’s addressed in the UCMJ, then follow those directives. If not, spend your time on more useful activities.

Response by LCpl Sandy Moran made Dec 14 at 2023 12:17 PM

LCpl Sandy Moran — Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:17:14 -0500

I think your makeing a mountian out of a mole hill. Leave it alone. chances are your'll never see her again out of uniform

Response by CPL Cesar Freytes made Dec 16 at 2023 3:27 PM

CPL Cesar Freytes — Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:27:27 -0500

Im 62 years old and I dont see anythihg wrong.... Dont take a chance unless you know for sure shes violating some regulation or commanders orders in the military what you feel dosent matter its all about regs.

Response by MSgt Danny Derden made Dec 16 at 2023 8:44 PM

MSgt Danny Derden — Sat, 16 Dec 2023 20:44:14 -0500

If that pic is the problem then you have NO PROBLEM. I had a young female Sergeant who would wear clothing that barely covered ANYTHING and she would come on to almost anything in pants...yeah almost anything. Had constant issues with this sort of thing and inappropriate relationships, etc... but nothing ever stuck. She flew PTDY on a General's jet...yep flirted with the General...didn't follow protocol, was late for the return flight but I suppose el general was smitten and ordered the Aircraft Commander to hold the plane on the tarmac to give "the girl" time to make the flight. AC Commander was pissed. Called me (her supervisor) when he landed wanted to know what I was going to do about it. I asked him what he did about it as the Aircraft Commander...that pissed him off even more, then I told him he had to deal with it for a few hours, I've been stuck with it for the past year and anytime I try to take action I've got the first shirt and commander on my ass...yeah that...why are they covering for her...well I'll leave that up to you to figure out cause I couldn't prove anything anyway and I tried. Bull Shit of the finest odor but there it is...however I was able to make her uncomfortable enough that she chose to EXIT military service rather than reenlist...one of my finest accomplishments if I do say so myself.

Response by SP5 Robert Kennedy made Dec 17 at 2023 4:09 PM

SP5 Robert Kennedy — Sun, 17 Dec 2023 16:09:49 -0500

Well, not that I have any experience on this subject from time in the military... but you said you approached a "supervisor" of yours (questions: a: male or female, b: superior or subordinate to you?) Best answers to you can be better analyzed after these questions are answered. However, in the interim, if you're embarrassed, don't sit next to her or walk with her; go ahead or behind. When she queries your actions, kindly answer that you have differing tastes and opinions about civilian wardrobe while traveling to or from posts, and let her know that although you think she's a lovely lady, you are not comfortable with her taste in civilian clothing during "business hours". Perhaps offering to go halfsies on a pair of jeans without rips and tears. Then it's her decision to make. She can ask what you might prefer... or not. She can comply to your tastes... or not.
Meanwhile, I must admit that I find her easy on the eyes, but I understand.

Response by 1LT Brandon Brackett made Dec 17 at 2023 11:29 PM

1LT Brandon Brackett — Sun, 17 Dec 2023 23:29:04 -0500

you can't make a ho3 a housewife. Avoid her at all costs

Response by 1LT Brandon Brackett made Dec 17 at 2023 11:29 PM

1LT Brandon Brackett — Sun, 17 Dec 2023 23:29:29 -0500

you can't make a ho3 a housewife. Avoid this trash like the plague

Response by SPC Rick Price made Jan 21 at 2024 3:10 PM

SPC Rick Price — Sun, 21 Jan 2024 15:10:27 -0500

Sir IMO it should be you to address it,
If it is you having the issue. I’d guess you can only address though if she is not properly in accordance with ARMY regs? If the woman in the picture is the one you are taking about, and you are traveling while she is dressed like this, then that doesn’t seem inappropriate to me.

Response by Capt Adam Saxe made Jan 22 at 2024 12:13 AM

Capt Adam Saxe — Mon, 22 Jan 2024 00:13:50 -0500

Is the picture of her specifically? Did you post her picture in this forum for everyone to analyze without her consent?

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Jan 22 at 2024 10:07 AM

Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen — Mon, 22 Jan 2024 10:07:26 -0500

Don't necessarily like the style, but it's just that, a style that's in trend with twenty-somethings. Hold your tongue and keep thoughts to yourself.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2024 11:30 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Jan 2024 11:30:43 -0500

Is there a policy?
If not, make the policy business casual.
For everyone.

Response by SGT Drue Rockwell made Jan 22 at 2024 4:59 PM

SGT Drue Rockwell — Mon, 22 Jan 2024 16:59:59 -0500

Simple. Be professional in your handling of this. "SGT/SPC/PFC Snuffy, Please change into something more professional in appearance. A polo and dress slacks or some business casual analogue would be fantastic. Thanks for your help."

Response by SP5 Donna Barr made Jan 23 at 2024 10:35 AM

SP5 Donna Barr — Tue, 23 Jan 2024 10:35:03 -0500

You obviously have a Tardis from where you've been living in 1953.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2024 1:18 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:18:39 -0500

Maybe mind your business. Furthermore, no one besides you knows you're in the military.

Response by CPT Christian Weems made Jan 25 at 2024 12:27 AM

CPT Christian Weems — Thu, 25 Jan 2024 00:27:23 -0500

Sir, as a former NCO and a few other hats I will say that if the SM is not considered on duty during her en route to the TDY place of duty, then you cannot really enforce what SM is wearing in civilian attire.

It’s essentially an uphill battle, take for instance the amount of young SM who partake in Onlyfans off duty and other more risqué endeavors.

As a wise SGM once told me, sometimes you need to pick your battles. Respectfully, I personally don’t believe this a hill to die on.

Response by SPC Steven Nihipali made Jan 25 at 2024 3:25 PM

SPC Steven Nihipali — Thu, 25 Jan 2024 15:25:20 -0500

Just leave her alone... her jeans are ripped and that's the modern style/ fashion... if anything she's blending into the modern surroundings

Response by SSG Karl Kendall made Jan 26 at 2024 11:03 AM

SSG Karl Kendall — Fri, 26 Jan 2024 11:03:14 -0500

Leave her alone. She's fine and with the Louis Vitton bags she's also way ahead in fashion!

Response by CMSgt Richard Regel made Jan 26 at 2024 4:16 PM

CMSgt Richard Regel — Fri, 26 Jan 2024 16:16:23 -0500

Mind your on business. Stay in your lane.

Response by Cpl Jt Akers made Jan 27 at 2024 9:23 AM

Cpl Jt Akers — Sat, 27 Jan 2024 09:23:34 -0500

If it is not in violation of any regulations then your opinion of what you think would be proper it is not really an issue. The only time it would should be any concern of yours is if she was violating regulations.

Response by 1SG John Millan made Jan 27 at 2024 1:03 PM

1SG John Millan — Sat, 27 Jan 2024 13:03:18 -0500

Sir, I'd get a female NCO to correct her. Avoid that bullet completely and still fix the issue.

Response by SGT Brian “Doc” Burry made Jan 27 at 2024 5:18 PM

SGT Brian “Doc” Burry — Sat, 27 Jan 2024 17:18:46 -0500

Busy body “badge heavy” who should butt out! Go your own way and leave others alone. By the way, you do not own her!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2024 6:51 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 27 Jan 2024 18:51:51 -0500

You should approach her with a witness (preferably female) and explain to her that her clothing is inappropriate while she is traveling on orders. You can use examples to justify your case for appropriate clothing like if, for some reason, her baggage was lost or there was some sort of mishap where her luggage was sent to another location and will take time to get to your destination after you land, what is she going to do? How would what she be looked upon by others with those clothes if she had to attend the function in which she is representing her unit and service. I recommend appropriate clothing wear for TDYs be addressed to all your service members prior to leaving on a TDY trip to ensure this doesn't happen in the future.

Response by 1SG Dean Mcbride (MPER) (CPHR) made Jan 28 at 2024 9:52 AM

1SG Dean Mcbride (MPER) (CPHR) — Sun, 28 Jan 2024 09:52:04 -0500

This Dead Horse has been already beaten to death! Over eight years past the original post with 786 responses, why does it show up in my inbox today?

From: RallyPoint Briefing < [login to see] >
To: "mcbdean"
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2024 at 10:21:24 PM CST
Subject: How can I correct a female subordinate wearing questionable civilian clothes during TDY travel?
I don't mind adding my Two Cents worth of advice but after eigth years, it woin't even add up to that amount! LOL

Response by MAJ Tracy Pim made Jan 28 at 2024 10:07 PM

MAJ Tracy Pim — Sun, 28 Jan 2024 22:07:54 -0500

Give me a break ….. as long as he shows up to work dressed professionally I don’t care what she wears when she’s off duty

Response by SrA Bruce Banner made Feb 6 at 2024 1:52 AM

SrA Bruce Banner — Tue, 06 Feb 2024 01:52:37 -0500

Let it be, sir. It's good for morale. ;)

Response by CH (LTC) Robert Leroe made Mar 9 at 2024 8:03 AM

CH (LTC) Robert Leroe — Sat, 09 Mar 2024 08:03:50 -0500

Have a female higher than her in the chain of command talk to her.

Response by LT Ron Ashcraft made Mar 9 at 2024 2:16 PM

LT Ron Ashcraft — Sat, 09 Mar 2024 14:16:11 -0500

This is another good reason Uniforms are required. Makes one uncomfortable to be seen with.

Response by MAJ Steve Daugherty made Mar 11 at 2024 11:25 AM

MAJ Steve Daugherty — Mon, 11 Mar 2024 11:25:00 -0400

Sounds like she is trying to have a feminine look and be fashionable. As long as she isn't presenting as a hooker and trying to flirt with the guys in seductive ways don't see a real problem. You could require work related travel to be in uniform then the dilemma is solved. I often travelled in uniform for better service and the advantages it gave me.

Response by 1SG M Greenwalt made Apr 11 at 2024 5:38 PM

1SG M Greenwalt — Thu, 11 Apr 2024 17:38:12 -0400

You are simply in the wrong. One, her attire is not only appropriate but her choice to make. Two, if it offends you in some way look elswhere. Three, if you don't want to harass the lady well, then don't. So long as she is not in uniform and on duty her role as your subordinate ends. Seek further training or let someone else take your place on future TDY travels that involve women

Response by SSgt Mark Willsey made Apr 22 at 2024 12:08 AM

SSgt Mark Willsey — Mon, 22 Apr 2024 00:08:31 -0400

HELLO (MAJ) BEAVER:
Technically there is nothing you can do. I would also talk to your attorney general for legal advice first. In being able to talk to her, you need a second witness to be part of what transpires at that meeting, make it an official relaxed meeting. Talk about when traveling during a TDY, though in civilian clothing - in a round about way, all of you are still "working". and until in your personal accommodations, and off - off duty, - Please remember you are representing the (military.) So please dress accordingly.

Response by SSgt Mark Willsey made Apr 22 at 2024 12:31 AM

SSgt Mark Willsey — Mon, 22 Apr 2024 00:31:28 -0400

I have to say, I see wokeness in some of the remarks here. On Duty, or Off Duty, we all MUST remember - we are members of an elite club! We are members of the United States Military! And our actions even off duty can and do reflect upon the Military! Male or female, enlisted or officer, if you want to dress, act, speak, in a manner unbecoming - the UCMJ WILL BE THERE WATCHING! IF THE MILITARY WANTS TO GET RID OF YOU, THEY CAN! ARTICLE 134 - WHICH STATES - (ANYTHING - NOT PREVIOUSLY COVERED IN THE UCMJ SHALL BE COVERED UNDER THIS ARTICLE!) TO SUM THIS UP, THEY CAN MAKE SHIT UP! AND USE IT TO ANY WAY THEY SEE FIT. DO NOT TEST THERE RESOLVE! I know some or many maybe upset over what I just remarked. Respect the Military, your Country, your Self. Look in the mirror, and ask your self - do I look like a {Marine - an Airmen - an Army person - a Navel person - Coast Guard personal}? think about it?

Response by CW2 Matt Baum made Apr 22 at 2024 10:21 AM

CW2 Matt Baum — Mon, 22 Apr 2024 10:21:33 -0400

"Want" is the operative word. If this is an actual photo of her that you posted to social media without consent would be the only issue that I see here. "Back in my day", we were always told to dress business casual for civilian attire, however, I am not aware of anything in the UCMJ that defines civilian attire.