How can someone fight a FG article 15?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 10:42:16 -0500

I was on a 24 hour and decided to take a 40 min nap (set my alarm) in place of getting dinner. I had my runner watching over until my break was over. Search at major in for a surgeon are pushing for a field great article 15, wanting to take away my e6 to an e5 for “sleeping on duty” wasn’t even given a chance to explain that I was taking a nap in place of dinner because he went off on me calling me a POS and even mentioned my wife and kids. Got counseled and also told I was being recommended for a FG article 15.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2020 10:43 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 10:43:14 -0500

Sergeant Major and first sergeant *** are pushing for a *** typo

Response by Espena Lewis made Nov 6 at 2020 10:48 AM

Espena Lewis — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 10:48:50 -0500

That was a bit harsh

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Nov 6 at 2020 10:51 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 10:51:09 -0500

Get off social media. Contact area defense counsel (or Army equivalent). If you’re sure you can prove you’re innocent of wrongdoing then refuse nonjudicial and request court martial.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2020 1:31 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 13:31:35 -0500

What you do on your dinner break, unless illegal, is your business. Talk to JAG. If someone brought some bullshit like that to me as a Commander, I'd tear them a new one. unless they have it writing that you are not allowed to take a break, they have no grounds.

Response by SSG Leonard Cartwright made Nov 6 at 2020 1:46 PM

SSG Leonard Cartwright — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 13:46:47 -0500

The officer have made a great call you should all read be at legal counsel.

Response by SSG Carlos Madden made Nov 6 at 2020 1:54 PM

SSG Carlos Madden — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 13:54:40 -0500

Go straight to JAG. Lots of people on here can speculate but in the end no one can improve your situation other than consul if that is in fact the route your commander decides to to take.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Nov 6 at 2020 2:04 PM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 14:04:02 -0500

Three words, Trial Defense Services. That's the defense side of the JAG. Go talk to them, make sure you bring all supporting statements and evidence in your favor. Good luck.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Nov 6 at 2020 2:16 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 14:16:55 -0500

SSG Private RallyPoint Member 1ST GET OFF THIS PAGE WITH THIS, SAY NOTHING MORE.
Go see JAG, bring with you a copy of the duty log were you signed out on your dinner break.
Bring the unit policy on the duty post/task you were assigned.
Bring with you the full name, unit, and contact info for your runner.
Be brutally honest with your JAG rep. 1/2 truths, omissions of fact, etc will only hurt you later when it comes out.
Tell the Jag if you brought food with you and consume any said food.
Tell them if you had food delivered.

Response by SSgt James Atkinson made Nov 6 at 2020 2:36 PM

SSgt James Atkinson — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 14:36:04 -0500

First, shut up. no seriously completely shut up and say no more about this matter to anybody until it is fully resolved.

Get into the JAGs office ASAP, and explain to "your attorney of the hour" exactly what went down, and tell them the full unvarnished truth, warts and all, and I mean to get deep into the ugly truth, and speak not even the slightest hint of a lie to the JAG office you speak with.

Bring with you a list of names and contact information for those people who can provide you with a solid alibi, or who were witnesses for or against you. Expect that the JAG has seen and heard of this sort of thing in the past, and have helped sort out false accusations. But, if you did the deed, ask your JAG to negotiate tremendous remorse and that Article 15 as a merciful alternative.

If you lie to your JAG, expect the nightmare to explode in a way you are not expecting, tell the truth to the JAG, and be found without blame and your commander will get a few lumps over false accusations. At a minimum, your JAG will get to the bottom of things, and if you are truly blameless, your commander will give you a genuine, heartfelt apology.

Only you and your JAG officer can decide on if you take Article 15, and take no advice or input from anybody other than your JAG. Oh yes, shut your mouth right now and do not speak of it further until resolved, and the old man apologizes to you, to your face, or you admit the fault and take your lumps.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Nov 6 at 2020 5:44 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 17:44:00 -0500

Not proof reading your post before posting it, should of gotten you a company grade. Seriously, you are an E-6, and you don't know well enough to not sleep on duty? Did you not think to ask someone so you could at least have an alibi? Nap in place of dinner, nope, can't say I ever read about that being permissible. The Creed of the Non Commissioned Officer sates this " I will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal safety. " Sounds like you missed that line. Sleeping on duty by any other name is sleeping on duty. Accept your punishment, see if you can convince your command to get a suspended bust, and accept everything else.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2020 11:20 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 23:20:18 -0500

Lucky for you I believe the new SMA addressed exactly this, and is in favor of it....

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2020 12:12 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Nov 2020 00:12:19 -0500

You screwed up big time. If you were an E-5 it might go a bit easier, but an E-6, I digress. All the legal stuff quoted here is ok, but if you are looking to stay in for the long haul, have a talk with your Platoon Sargent and Top. If you don’t have them on your side, your cooked. If they are on your side, thank God and do whatever they say. Then realize what a leader is supposed to be, and if you survive, be the good leader. MHO

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2020 1:29 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Nov 2020 01:29:00 -0500

You can plead your case to the commander who will probably lean towards the recommendation of the 1SG and CSM, or you can request a court martial. I think your chances are actually better with the court martial. The idea that you must be awake for 24 hours straight is a bit ridiculous and not really supported by any doctrine or regulations that I'm aware of.

"How important is this?" you may ask yourself....

A field grade Article 15 is an automatic referral to QMP board at your rank. If I were in your shoes, I would request the Court Martial and hire a civilian attorney. The people who tell you to go to JAG are incorrect, JAG is the prosecution office and will refuse to discuss your case with you. If you receive a failed to meet standards NCOER you will be referred to QMP. I personally believe your best bet is to push for a court martial, if you're found not guilty or the case is not prosecuted then your command has no grounds to give you a negative, career ending, NCOER.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Nov 8 at 2020 10:32 AM

SSG Brian G. — Sun, 08 Nov 2020 10:32:13 -0500

1. Get off social media in discussing such things. RP is not owned or operated by the DoD but serving military members are a part of it.

2. Go see JAG. Don't walk, don't jog.. RUN there.

3. Document everything. You were on a 24 hour duty with another SM, have them write an account of what occurred and what had been worked out and that you were on your lunch break.

Response by LT Christopher Miller made Nov 8 at 2020 1:17 PM

LT Christopher Miller — Sun, 08 Nov 2020 13:17:37 -0500

As a former legal officer, the first thing I would do is grab the directive that governs that watch. You will need that as a foundation for any kind of defense during your Article 15. Speak to legal. Make sure your superiors know your plan, including your plan to appeal if necessary. Make sure you do it in writing. And Colonel Coe is right, get off social media.

Response by SSG Leonard Cartwright made Nov 8 at 2020 1:21 PM

SSG Leonard Cartwright — Sun, 08 Nov 2020 13:21:05 -0500

Had to post this last post...ouch , even ones saying almost the same thing. I read all the post seek Council .

Response by SGT James Colbert made Nov 8 at 2020 2:15 PM

SGT James Colbert — Sun, 08 Nov 2020 14:15:48 -0500

Get a lawyer go to JAG. If it is a FG you will orb8sed to have a JAG assigned to you. But i would gather all your ducks in a row and everybody who was there. That sounds like conduct unbecoming for an officer..i dont recall the article , but a FG officer should not talk to anyone like that

Response by PO2 Chris Mccarthy made Nov 9 at 2020 4:17 PM

PO2 Chris Mccarthy — Mon, 09 Nov 2020 16:17:50 -0500

The first bit of advise I am going to give you is to stop talking about this, delete this thread and any others you have made about it. You are going to sink your case before it begins. Next, go to your JAG. If you are truly in the right then decline Art 15 and request court marshal.
I can not stress enough to stop talking about this and delete any and all posts about it.
CYOA

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 11 at 2020 8:47 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 08:47:51 -0500

A. Hope your Runner verifies your version of events.
B. If this is the case when you got your counseling I hope you submitted your comments in the section for them.
C. Speak with your NCO Support Channel to see what the rest of the command thinks of the situation.
D. Do not.....I say again DO NOT opt for Court Marshal on something like this if your entire command is against you.

I hate to put it like that but it’s the way it is. Sometimes it’s better to suck it up, live to see another day and prove people wrong in the future.
That doesn’t mean don’t fight it, submit rebuttals during the process, site lack of prior counseling’s, get character statements, dispute the RFC NCOER what ever you can. This is the time to learn the regs from JAG and your own studying.

Response by TSgt George Austin made Nov 13 at 2020 3:55 PM

TSgt George Austin — Fri, 13 Nov 2020 15:55:22 -0500

Your runner was a POS for sure. I had Art15 charges read 3 different times. I demanded a courts general martial, in public. All 3 times they dropped it. Yes, a general is drastic but your right. In public is your right. He was probably just blowing off smoke to get a reaction. Keep your ducks in a row and get a better runner next time.

Response by SSG Bob Teachout made Jan 11 at 2021 11:19 AM

SSG Bob Teachout — Mon, 11 Jan 2021 11:19:52 -0500

Eating is NOT the same as sleeping!
There is a reason for no sleeping - you need to be available at a moments notice
Looks like the only thing you might have is the mercy of the CO.

Response by LCDR Mike Morrissey made Jan 30 at 2021 12:46 AM

LCDR Mike Morrissey — Sat, 30 Jan 2021 00:46:32 -0500

As a water type guy, was “field great” supposed to be field grade? All our Art 15s are called Captain’s Mast ( no matter the grade of the commanding officer, all sea or shore command unit commanders are “captains”). Only shore based Art 15 can be refused though an admin discharge or a Summary Court could follow. Of course appeals can be made in all cases. If I recall correctly USMC has “office hours”. Will be into hear about what Space Force terms come about . I had a hard enough time with the various rank insignia terminology in the Army over the 30 yrs. Now the Space Force Enlisted Guardian rank insignias and all the variations in the stripe arrangements and specialty derivatives be a treat. But I digress ...at least the Navy Officer Rank insignia and terms won’t get sucked in. Though I do understand CAPT Kirk’s sentiments. Air Force, after losing its aircraft fight in ‘48 certainly wasn’t going let the Navy nose in the tent. Oops digressed again..bye