How can we get to PTSD soldiers ahead of time?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 13:43:22 -0400

Soldier with PTSD after three tours shoots fiance and then himself. How can we get to soldiers before this type of tragedy? How do we identify them if they are not requesting help for themselves?

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/07/30/pregnant-woman-shot-to-death-in-murder-suicide-unborn-baby-surv/21216015/

Pregnant woman shot to death in murder-suicide, unborn baby survives

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Jul 31 at 2015 1:49 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 13:49:08 -0400

We must embed mental health professionals with our troops and screen them early and often. No member of our military should be afflicted with PTSD and go unnoticed.

Response by CMSgt Mark Schubert made Jul 31 at 2015 2:23 PM

CMSgt Mark Schubert — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 14:23:57 -0400

All too often there are signs that are overlooked - we need more training on spotting these signs, asking the right questions, etc.

Response by MSgt Curtis Ellis made Jul 31 at 2015 2:32 PM

MSgt Curtis Ellis — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 14:32:10 -0400

This is a hard one, but bear with me... You would have to have more than just your basic & everyday knowledge of someone to do this. Me (I don't mind), for example, spent the majority of my time "alone" and I learned to hide it well from those around me, that is, except for my family. No one else even had a clue (discovered this afterwards)... In fact, no one would know until I had a life changing situation happen that forced me to seek help... The "true loners" are a hard group to reach because they let no one in and can effectively function normally around anyone or any group of people... To me, and for the case posted above, the best person to catch and report this early (my opinion only) can only be those individuals who are more than closest to that person. Family members, parents or usually a spouse, or, given their age, their children. They, more than often know what is happening, and will "keep it in the family", until it gets unbearable or in most of these cases, too late... I use myself as an example as it's the best way I can explain it, as my ex and boys all knew... I "convinced" my ex I was "fine" and she, in turn, "pushed" it to my boys... Until she had had enough... No, other than verbally, I didn't "harm" anyone, but the truth is, verbally as well as other actions, does harm... I was really out there and so fixated on myself, I couldn't realize the damage I was doing to my family, and they never said a word... It's hard to seek help when you really have no flipping clue of whats going on with you... What you learn in the courses and classes doesn't even come close to describing it, and it's not until you finally go for treatment for something unrelated, and a nurse asks you "the right" question that, without thinking, you answer, does it finally click and you finally realize "Hey, I really do resemble that!!!". Either that, or you get the post above... I am one of the fortunate ones... What I write here doesn't even begin to cover what was going on with me, and it's different for everyone, but I will honestly say, had my ex (not blaming her or my boys) had acted sooner, maybe I would have gotten treatment sooner... So yes, I think getting the soldiers family to be willing to "out" their soldier (that's the way their going to feel... ask my boys) may significantly reduce suicide/murder-suicide by our Vets, but how to convince blood to turn in blood? Other than making it mandatory that family members attend these briefing and classes with their Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine, (which would be preferred) that one, I can't answer, as I was able to "accidentally" get the help I needed through no fault of anyone...

Response by PO2 Brandon Boucher made Jul 31 at 2015 2:33 PM

PO2 Brandon Boucher — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 14:33:41 -0400

Unfortunately unless that ask for help or acknowledge they need help, it isn't something that we can "force" people to do. Admitting that you are suffering is something that the military beats out of you very quickly, but when you transfer to civilian life, we have no way of putting back the fact that it is ok to ask for help.

The only thing that I've been able to is offer a Group Session for Combat Veterans to discuss things and help with any challenges they might have. This is independent of the VA. I also teach mindfullness and meditation techniques that I myself have had tremendous personal experience with.

It is a sad state when our warriors aren't welcomed or feel safe asking for help when they transition to civilian life.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jul 31 at 2015 2:35 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 14:35:03 -0400

I think we touch on this topic fairly regularly here on RP. I truly believe that the SMs that want help are getting it. DoD has stepped up its campaign in the last decade on recognizing PTS, trauma and TBI in each other and ourselves. Units reach out to families and spouses through FRGs, mandatory classes and training on these issues has been instituted during DEMOB and Combat Stress teams and units are out there in the combat zones. VA and civilian resources are for the most part plentiful for those seeking help. I'd venture to say that a large percentage of those needing help have been identified already or have identified themselves. Unfortunately you can't force anyone to seek/accept help or treatment. Tragic as these cases are, IMHO cases like these are people that are refusing help. Again, IMHO, I don't think there is anything more that can be done if people won't admit they need help or seek/accept help. Being refused or delayed treatment at a VA facility is not an excuse to not get help as there are many other avenues available. "Whoa is me, the VA can't see me for 3 months" is a cop out if you need immediate help. I truly believe that every effort has been made to reach out to all SMs and their families that are even remotely in a position to suffer from PTS and the like. The only way for tragedies like this to stop is for those who need the help to accept that they need it and to get it.

Rudimentarily related, name me one SM who has gone month's w/o a paycheck. Guarantee within 1 day of the pay not getting deposited, that SM contacted their CofC and S1 and the ball was rolling to fix the problem. Same process applies with PTS and other combat/stress related injuries - get the ball rolling as soon as a problem is identified. If you don't seek help, the problem will never get resolved.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2015 2:41 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 14:41:54 -0400

One of the primary changes that need to happen is at the demobilization sites. We need full time, dedicated mental health professionals to conduct screenings. The last 10-15 years it has been a meat grinder, all about numbers processed (check the block)...and often staffed by private contractors, Reservists recalled to Active Duty or some other disgruntled soul.

Response by MSgt Curtis Ellis made Jul 31 at 2015 3:59 PM

MSgt Curtis Ellis — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 15:59:12 -0400

Reading a lot of these responses, I still hear that, eventually, it's up to that individual... And that's fine when the individual realizes what is happening to them and actively seek help for it. With no disrespect intended towards anyone who has commented, how is that working out for the rest of them that aren't aware? Or the ones where the family/friends are unknowingly through lack of education, assisting the concealment of it? Even in the article above, it stated:
"Mary says her son struggled with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder; there were times when he wasn`t himself. "So you sensed there were moments when he was edgy?" We asked. "I knew, and I can understand.""
Well, clearly, she did not...
Again, not placing blame, but in the majority of these cases, SOMEBODY actually, no joke, knew, or suspected; wife, mother, father, sister, brother, child... Yet they did nothing, and we hear afterwards from those closest to them, provided that they live to tell someone, that they all "knew something was a little more off than normal or along those lines", yet , they say nothing... Why is that? We have an untapped audience that we need to reach as well before the service member separates, so at least the dependents have a skill to take with them... How do we do that? I'm not saying that doing this will solve the problem, but I do believe it will significantly reduce these occurrences to... (and I hate to use the word) "acceptable levels", as no loss of life this way is acceptable, especially when there are innocent lives involved, but I would rather have an acceptable level (identified, help given/offered (I know it's not allowed, but forced, if need be), and they still performed this act), than to not reach a particular audience who could possibly make a difference, and end up with something like the above... Well... At least the mother and unborn daughter survived...
Again, I apologize for the rant, but I've been on the other side of that line, and it wasn't pretty...

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Jul 31 at 2015 4:15 PM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 16:15:20 -0400

The issue, as I've written extensively about, is that DOD, and in particular Army, deny the existence of PTSD as a corporate culture. There are several factors involved. They include "Huah Huah three bags full" (to misquote a nursery rhyme...), the fear of $$ cost of dealing with it, the fear of hits to readiness if too many soldiers fall out due to PTSD and just plain bad leadership, among others...

The only way for this to change is if the President/CINC, Congress and SECDEF along with the Service Secretaries, make a concerted effort to confront the problem. This will, however, have a huge dollar cost to accurately assess and treat every soldier and other active duty person with PTSD. It will also have a huge readiness cost in terms of soldiers taken off deployability, and there will be some goldbrickers...

Sadly, as in everything else, there is a cynical Dollar calculus that pertains. In the corporate liability world, they tend to value life at $1 Million. Deadly products won't change until the assessed life cost far exceeds the cost of making the changes to their products.

Because Federal dollars are limited, and with a very stingy Congress in place that won't work with the President anyway, they are highly unlikely to free up the money needed to adequately deal with this...

After all, if an SGLI claim is $400K, that's a lot cheaper than a lifetime of treating a soldier for PTSD...

Response by SSG Ricardo Marcial made Jul 31 at 2015 4:28 PM

SSG Ricardo Marcial — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 16:28:22 -0400

Once a year my last unit would take a day for the 'check the box and make sure you sign the roster" classes. Suicide prevention, followed by the rest. Yet during the rest of the year, there was no focus on actual soldier screening. I'm not talking about a sit sown and let's talk about how you feel session, but just a casual conversation.

At the platoon level, every squad leaders and platoon SGT should include this type of screening for their quarterly counseling review with each soldier. Confidentiality is a must and no psych doc need be present. A simple one on one and buddy check. You will find that a soldier will feel more comfortable at that level than say a classroom full of people. And just continued followup with any that are identified as 'concerned with". Losing a single soldier to suicide is hard enough, on family, and the unit. It brings too many questions to the surface as to what could we or I have done different. There is no easy answer, and the questions are tougher. but the way we as leaders and mentors view and handle this has to change, the way we look at the "how is this addressed' as well.

In my 4 deployments we had at least 1 suicide in each tour, 1 within the unit, the rest within the camp I was at. The effect of any suicide on a unit is beyond words. I learned a long time ago from a salty Marine, "it's your job to take care of Joe, he may not need it today. but he sure as hell may one day" Talk to your men and women, and maybe you will save a life, theirs or someone in their life.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Jul 31 at 2015 5:21 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 17:21:39 -0400

CPT M Cannonie, prevention and identification is the purpose of the Yellow Ribbon ceremonies, but in reality it falls to practicing I am thy Brothers' and Sisters' Keeper, in my unit we did a good job looking after those that deployed and more those that left the wire.

Response by LTC John Shaw made Jul 31 at 2015 6:44 PM

LTC John Shaw — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:44:27 -0400

CPT Private RallyPoint Member From my personal experience, many soldiers don't believe they are impacted until events with families and loved ones make it obvious to the family at least. The service member will still be resistant and even then you may not get the help from the Army or VA. Army won't cover if even a few months after deployment. VA is loath to cover PTSD for purposes of Disability rating.

Response by SFC Nikhil Kumra made Jul 31 at 2015 7:42 PM

SFC Nikhil Kumra — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 19:42:23 -0400

I'm sorry, but I'm going to sound a bit insensitive here... this story is giving me ptsd....

1) one simply doesn't "catch" a case of ptsd from serving in the military or deploying. It's a genetal term for a normal reaction to an abnormal situation... basically. ... there us nothing in this story that links ptsd, military service, deployments or what this sicko did to his fiancee. No link, simply a "veteran, murder, ptsd"

2) one major problem is that we lowered standards so far that just about any psychopath could sign up and get through a basic training at one point. We know this happened.

3) this nut would have done this either way. I'd put money on that, because a) what did he do in the air force that made him so utterly demented b) does he not have a family history of anything? And c) what tragic were his deployments that supposedly caused this? My bet is that he was screwed up long before the air force.

We can't just jump the gun on this and say PTSD. That is just about why the veteran stereotype today = psycho

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 31 at 2015 8:26 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 20:26:55 -0400

I am making the assumption his buddies knew he was struggling. Maybe we need a more robust redeployment screening.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2015 11:52 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 01 Aug 2015 11:52:23 -0400

The training of healthcare and Military personnel to indentify possible Military personnel with symptoms of PTSD has to improve. Diagnosis is the key. Once diagnosed, therapy and other services can begin to take over. Monitoring process have to be strong as well awareness programs for family members.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2015 8:08 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 01 Aug 2015 20:08:59 -0400

It's Post Traumatic Stress....there is no way to get to them ahead of time.

There is no way to prevent or predict who will or how anyone will react to a situation or how the trauma may effect their actions in the future.

Basically it's a crapshoot at best.

Resilience training makes leadership feel good, like we are doing something.

Post deployment decompression serves the same function....it makes leadership feel good...but does little for the soldier.

I know this is not what anyone wants to hear but it's the truth....a man/woman can have the same event happen 141 times and it not bother them...but that 142nd time all hell breaks loose.

And yes I understand the question was how do we prevent a soldier with PTSD from doing something....and the answer is we can't.....a lot of times the symptoms that lead to diagnosis are much milder than they are when something bad happen.....sudden worsening of symptoms is common and often untreated......medications can help some folks cope with thing for a time but the risk of escalation of symptoms is always there. We preach ask for help....but when/if you do often there is not help readily available or as is too far often noted on this site that help includes an involuntary stay at a state or government facility.

Vigilance and early intervention is probably the best we can do. Those with friends and loved ones with a diagnosis should monitor and be willing to "make the call" if things are getting worse.....ask the hard questions....take away weapons if necessary.....seek professional help.....or yes even call the police if you fear violence is even a possibility of becoming an option......I can't speak for everyone but I would rather keep having veterans posting that they were arrested and detained for "bullshit" than to continue to read articles like this because no one took any action. (and I'm not saying anything could've have prevented this from happening, but there are many times where if one brave person had stood up and called for help or the cops something could have been prevented)

Anyway thought and prayers to the family and to all off those dealing with the monster that is PTSD may they continue or learn to control it and not the other way aroundl

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 14 at 2015 6:27 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:27:03 -0500

The unit should know when mental problems arise.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 15 at 2015 2:22 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:22:36 -0500

The team that can help is the Doc, buddies, family, COC.