How common is a Field Grade Article 15 for first offenses (minor)?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 May 2018 17:52:33 -0400

I’ve been to legal and they were no help. Without specifics, I’m being pressed with a couple charges that are inaccurate and my honest truth is backed by physical evidence. However, my unit does not want to drop the case. All legal told me was none of this was worth written counseling, let alone any degree of Article 15. They believe my LTC should drop the case but many in my unit say that he will not care and will still hit me with max punishment.

i have several NCOs that agree I am a great soldier that I’m being targeted because female combat arms is frowned upon. I refuse to believe that it’s outright bias, I would hope my unit is better than that.

Would anyone have advice on how to handle this situation professionally?

Response by SPC Margaret Higgins made May 19 at 2018 5:59 PM

SPC Margaret Higgins — Sat, 19 May 2018 17:59:16 -0400

Private First Class, I admire your candor and your courage. I don't have an answer for you; very unfortunately. I Do, however, praise you; and, send my most fervent prayers to you.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2018 6:04 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 May 2018 18:04:52 -0400

First of don't go into the facts of the case on the internet. Did you get a brief on the art 15 process from TDS? You have a few options. First you can ask for a court marshal you should spend some time with a TDS lawyer before you do that. If you and your lawyer decide to accept the art 15 then you can appeal that but I have never seen that done with success. You need to engage your TDS and make some decisions on how to handle this. If you don't get anywhere with TDS which I find odd you can always pay for your own lawyer if you chose to do that.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2018 6:05 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 May 2018 18:05:23 -0400

I don't think that a public forum is the best place to discuss this. Best advice - consult with an attorney off-base that specializes in UCMJ and Military Law. Most will give a free consultation. Otherwise, you will easily be in over your head. Listening to the "barracks lawyers" is not wise.

Edit: See LT Lober's response below. The reason I said seek counsel is so someone qualified can review your case. Based on their experience they should be able to tell if you have basis for requesting a CM, where different rules apply. If you try that on your own, you may make critical mistakes that will jeopardize the future of your case. An attorney retained at that point may not be able to undo actions you've already taken. Then, as I referred to, you are in over your head. You could then get your CM and it might not work out well. Counsel may see a definite injustice that can't be addressed fully at Art 15. They may also see that your chances are better to take your lumps at NJP and move on. Two things apply - be careful what you ask for, and NJP refers to "Non Judicial" Punishment. If you are thinking that you are going to get off on a technicality based on "barracks lawyers" or your Google research, you may be in for a rude awakening. The last thing you want to be seen as is a lone crusader for justice based on hip pocket theories. At that point you're all alone and standing tall vs. the Command. You still have to serve in the Command after your case, so consider that. Speak with an attorney, because that's the only place where you will get qualified legal advice.

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made May 19 at 2018 6:16 PM

Sgt Wayne Wood — Sat, 19 May 2018 18:16:38 -0400

Not knowing the allegation or circumstances there is no advice to give.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2018 6:26 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 May 2018 18:26:38 -0400

SPC Private RallyPoint Member I have no reason to doubt your greatness. But a general piece of advice that will help you as you move forward. It’s just about never helps your case to say, “and others think I’m great..”. If that’s the case (and it very well may be), let those folks advocate on your behalf and tout your greatness. If you are, they won’t hesitate to do so.

Moving along. Without knowing the full details of your incident, please be wary of any legal advice you receive about your case on RP. In every case, there are three versions. The soldiers version, the way the Army views the incident, and then what actually happened. It’s human nature for you to put the incident in the best light. It’s the Army’s nature to want uphold good order and discipline and assume Privates are messing up. And then there’s the actual incident or event that led to your current predicament.

I don’t think your commander was just sitting around one day thinking, “how do I turn PFC Bailey’s life into a dumpster fire this month? Ahh, I know, field grade!!” SOMETHiNG had to have happened to get to this point. I always found that the privates who suddenly became a part of the ‘dindu nuffin’ tribe when it was punishment time only made it harder on themselves.

Now, retired NCO advice time. If the JAG rep said it wasn’t even a counseling worthy incident, but isn’t willing to get involved with your unit, I’d go back to jag (with one of your NCOs who thinks you’re great. You’re going to need some CAS for this fight) and ask to speak with his superior. And if they blow you off, ask to speak to theirs.

If your command goes through with your Article 15, there is an appeals process. During your reading, the commander will explain it to you. I attached a link for a brief info sheet about Article 15s.
Be honest. If you evidence, you’ll have an opportunity to present it.

Best of luck to you.
http://www.wood.army.mil/sja/TDS/article_15_fact_sheet.htm

article_15_fact_sheet.htm

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2018 6:33 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 May 2018 18:33:51 -0400

Contact TDS again and make sure you understand the Article 15 process and the process for an appeal. An Article 15 is non-judicial punishment, a Judge Advocate will not represent you and a Civilian Attorney can not act in their capacity as an attorney other than to speak on your behalf which in my opinion is a waste of money. You can however present matters in your defense and matters in mitigation. You can request persons to speak on your behalf, these persons can be witnesses to the event, or persons who will represent your good conduct and character to your CO. Your first line leader is usually there with you, commanders usually like to ask them questions about the Soldier. Performance, etc.

You shouldn't post what the event was here, make sure you contact TDS again. I'm not going to tell you that you can get out of this but don't walk in without the knowledge that you need and not be prepared to present your case to your CO.

Response by LT Terry Lober made May 19 at 2018 7:28 PM

LT Terry Lober — Sat, 19 May 2018 19:28:12 -0400

At an Art 15 hearing you can contest the charge. Furthermore your seniors in the Chain of Command whether that be a E-4,-06 can testify to the "good soldier defense". That is ," this sailor, soldier, airmen, etc is a 'good soldier ' and would not do whatever the charge is. You also have the right to have a JAG explain your rights at an Art 15 and the procedure. No JAG can represent you at an Art 15 but your superiors can and might speak on your behalf. Within reason, you can also call 'fact ' witnesses to say this man is innocent, etc.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made May 19 at 2018 7:30 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Sat, 19 May 2018 19:30:26 -0400

General information: the level of article 15 is up to the commander that is trying to maintain good order and discipline and the situation as they see it. There is a general summarized, company and field grade escalation, but Brigade and Battalion commanders with hold authority on certain offenses by policy. This is supported by UCMJ. They retain authority on offenses they believe they are better equipped to handle or to address specific discipline issues at their local command. This isn't like union Douglas factors.

If you have been read an Article 15, it was reviewed by the CJA . The nature of that review is between the CJA and the issuing Commander.

Note on charges. You said you had charges....If you were charged, it isn't Nonjudicial punishment under article 15. That is a court martial (either summary, special or general).

That being said SPC Private RallyPoint Member get off Rally point and get to your servicing TDS. Anything you toss out here is open to all. The advice you get will range from well intentioned to straight up barracks lawyering. Get your advice from TDS.

Response by LT Terry Lober made May 19 at 2018 7:34 PM

LT Terry Lober — Sat, 19 May 2018 19:34:03 -0400

Civilian attorney's that were JAG's are entitled, at YOUR expense to speak on your behalf at the Art 15. I used to defend soldiers as a civilian attorney and found every CO I ever dealt with to be fair, open-minded, and wanted justice done. Sometimes that means admitting guilt and offering E and M to soften the blow.

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made May 19 at 2018 7:36 PM

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Sat, 19 May 2018 19:36:26 -0400

Here's the only advice that you need, and you have probably heard it before: If you think that it is bull then you can take it to courts martial, if not, then suck it up, take the punishment, and move on. An article 15 is nothing to get too up in arms about. I don't think that you will find very many senior NCOs who haven't had a least one article 15 in their career. The key is to get passed it.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2018 7:59 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 May 2018 19:59:56 -0400

if its something you have 100% proof you did not do, you have the right to pass up the art 15 and push for a courts martial. Just be careful with it as it can turn on you. But often leadership doesn't actually have enough evidence to go to trial. I'd recommend talking to legal over this option.

Response by SCPO Morris Ramsey made May 19 at 2018 8:05 PM

SCPO Morris Ramsey — Sat, 19 May 2018 20:05:33 -0400

Have you considered putting on your big girl panties and when your LTC asked you if you have anything to add, plead your case. After you have stated your defense and your senior leadership team has lauded your greatness and the LTC awards punishment, give him a right hand salute and say Thank you Sir!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2018 8:27 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 May 2018 20:27:18 -0400

You can always choose the option to go trial by court martial and really show/defend your case. Not giving actual legal advice, just pointing out that you have the option of taking this to court martial.

Response by SGM Herman Whitley made May 19 at 2018 8:55 PM

SGM Herman Whitley — Sat, 19 May 2018 20:55:28 -0400

All I will say is you don’t have to agree to accept an Art 15 and can choose a CM. You should be sure you can win and pay a cub attorney who knows the mil system and go for it.

Response by LTJG Richard Bruce made May 19 at 2018 9:36 PM

LTJG Richard Bruce — Sat, 19 May 2018 21:36:09 -0400

I've been out for a few years. While active, the issuance of "work hours" was being frown upon. It was common practice to give "work hours" in lieu of seeking a Captain's Mast for minor discipline problems. Extra duty documentation can disappear when needed. An Art-15 left a paper trail. Apparently too many complained about the extra work. What I noticed was a significant increase in Art-15's. For those on active duty, is giving out "work hours" common, or are problem cases pushed into Art-15's?

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2018 9:51 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 May 2018 21:51:39 -0400

First. Legal will be useless until you actually are formally charged. So going to them beforehand is useless. Second, if a company commander is asking me to do an article 15 then he is telling me he can’t do his job and is asking me to do it for him. So when you go to your punishment reading show your evidence, have your witnesses lined up, and have your leadership say good things about you. My daughter will be an Artillery Officer in a couple of weeks so you’ll have more company soon. She too has had an art. 15 cause an NCO was too lazy, and jealous, to do her job of training Soldiers. Good luck.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made May 19 at 2018 10:28 PM

SSG Warren Swan — Sat, 19 May 2018 22:28:09 -0400

Man if you went straight to a field grade, whatever the offense claimed against you isn’t light, and you more than likely have done this before. You mentioned female combat arms. Without the full details I feel a problem right there. I’ve seen female Soldiers disrespected in many ways to include sexual harassment/assault. Backed up by ‘physical evidence’....if that involves a woman, that in itself is extremely bad. Only a few charges around that involve that. You can be the biggest stud there is. Know your job forward and backwards, but that only means you’re ‘stellar’ in one aspect. NOT the 360 degree Soldier. I’m wondering how long have you been in, what do your previous 4856’s say about you to include past units, and when using the 360 degree total Soldier concept, what is wrong, what went wrong, and can you be saved career wise? That’s either in the Army or as a civilian. Anything you type on here CAN and WILL be used against you. If I were in your shoes, I’d delete this thread, delete my profile and go see legal again and figure out the best course forward. Physical evidence does NOT sound good. BTW someone from your unit should live told you NOT to do what you just did in asking this question on a public forum. The Army is NOT that big, and someone on here knows someone in your chain of command latterly or in a leadership position. Get off RP now please

Response by SSG Trevor S. made May 19 at 2018 10:43 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Sat, 19 May 2018 22:43:00 -0400

This isn't the best advice you can get, but...
You can always refuse Article 15 proceedings and demand a court martial.
NCO's don't judge me, you know someone was going to say it.

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made May 19 at 2018 10:58 PM

SSgt Jim Gilmore — Sat, 19 May 2018 22:58:27 -0400

Then refuse the Article 15 and go to court martial if you feel that strongly about this.

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made May 19 at 2018 11:09 PM

LCpl Cody Collins — Sat, 19 May 2018 23:09:22 -0400

I've been out of the loop for so long, I don't have a clue. But the level of discipline has been lowered, it's hard to determine where the lines are drawn. My ex wife was Navy and she was stationed aboard a Destroyer Tender. While out in the Red Sea, her shop Co. Started giving her problems. She wrote me ( no cell phones or internet ) very upset and on the verge of crying. I wrote the ships Captain, I was respectful, and Disciplined in my communication with him. The captain wrote me back and said he appreciated my concern, and that he would investigate the matter. When they returned to Charleston S.C. her shop Co was waiting for me. He offered me his sincere apology. We shook hands, I rendered the proper salute and everyone was satisfied. He was a young lieutenant JG just trying to prove himself and he just went a little overboard. But a week later my squadron CO received a letter from the captain with a copy of my letter my CO called me up to his office. And hes day to me he didn't know whether the court martial me or whoop my a**. He said he was very impressed with my letter would if I ever have a problem like that again to Use the chain of command, Any dismiss me and told me to get out of his office. I say all that so you may want to think maybe this young lieutenant is just trying to prove himself, And you might have stepped out of line which a more seasoned officer would have just snapped you back and talk to you. Whereas this officer wants to put the hammer down, Don't listen to rumors about his character just like you don't want people listening to rumors about your character. I don't know if you are spiritual person and believe in God but maybe you can talk to you of Chaplin, Chaplains have more pool than a lot of people think because they fall into a specific area that even line officers do not want to offend the chaplain, Plus chaplains have very little to gain as far as moving up in the ranks and actually commanding units. Their motivation is to keep good harmony in order for everyone officer and enlisted alike.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2018 11:27 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 May 2018 23:27:30 -0400

Have you spoken with Trial Defense Service (TDS)?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2018 11:53 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 May 2018 23:53:56 -0400

First, you are on the BC's radar as an E-3. No matter how you slice it, that is a negative. Don't downplay what happened. The BC won't.
Second, what ever it was is big enough to pull out the possibility of a Field Grade A15. This is not a small thing, and can badly harm a career with QMP down the line. Consider your options carefully.
Third, as to you direct question about commonality on first offence, that will vary by command. Some units use A15s to solve order and discipline issues, others prefer other methods. I fall in the latter camp, but you don't work for me.

Now to advice.
Go to TDS.
View your options and determine how much risk you can stomach. If the facts are with you, then get your act together and face the accusers in whatever forum the BC uses.
Consider getting a consult with a private attorney. Retaining one is costly. But maybe less than the stakes of a FGA15.
Keep any information pertaining to facts of the case off of this forum.

Good luck

Response by SN Greg Wright made May 20 at 2018 12:30 AM

SN Greg Wright — Sun, 20 May 2018 00:30:24 -0400

2 things: Get off the internet with this. Go see your JAG. #2: there are a fuckton of senior NCO's walking around with article 15's under their belt. Unless it's sexual or drug-related in nature, it's not a career-ender.

Response by SSG Brian G. made May 20 at 2018 12:53 AM

SSG Brian G. — Sun, 20 May 2018 00:53:40 -0400

You've been read what your are accused of in the FG Article 15. You then availed yourself of proper legal advice, several times by your comments. Sounds like you are handling it professionally. As others have said, you can either take the Article 15 or push to have it be full on CM. Before you do any such move you need to seriously seek counsel and not just a JAG, but a consultation with a civilian that is qualified and knowledgeable and you need to be fully aware of the impact to your career should this go adversely.

As others have said, don't discuss the details on here and if the person you do take advice from is not a practicing lawyer and well versed in UCMJ and military proceedings, ignore them as they will just end up getting you well and truly smoked.

Best of luck to you.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2018 9:04 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 May 2018 09:04:01 -0400

History: In my time during active duty (early 80’s) many didn’t consider a soldier “a soldier” without having an Article 15. I never received one. By the time I got out of the AR (mid 90’s) having an Article 15 could destroy a career. I don’t know the atmosphere now.

Only you can say what the situation is. What are your goals? Do you want to make a career out of the military? Is there any truth to the allegations against you? You need to consider these questions. If you don’t want to make the military a career, it’s it doesn’t make a difference.

My advice if you do want to make the military a career: if there is any truth to the charges, admit you're guilt and work toward mending you fences. Try to impress your senior officers and NCOs that you are a good solider and worth a 2nd chance. If the charges are completely untrue: you have 2 choices request court marshal or fall on your sword and accept the Article 15. You need to speak HONESTLY to your senior NCOs and Legal to see what is best for you, not a bunch of old has beens on RP. I am in late to this conservation. You can see by the response you received here that there is some trouble in the events you described. There are no magic wands here or anywhere else, only hard work and honor. That’s what gets me through the day. Good Luck.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2018 10:03 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 May 2018 10:03:19 -0400

SPC Private RallyPoint Member I recommend you to prepare your response to the allegations/ charges. I'd write them down and then rehearse comments you wish to make to your BC. I'd address each with facts and no feelings.

Response by LTC Orlando Illi made May 20 at 2018 10:18 AM

LTC Orlando Illi — Sun, 20 May 2018 10:18:21 -0400

PFC Bailey you indicated that you being offered a Field Grade Article -15. I have NEVER heard of any Battalion Commander (including OCS classmates and friends of mine) that would even CONSIDER a Field Grade Article 15 for a "...1st Offense..." without having a great deal of evidence and sworn testimony as to the facts warranting one. My advice is that you should IMMEDIATELY cease and desist from discussing this case on this forum and seek further legal advice.

Response by MSG Frank Kapaun made May 20 at 2018 10:20 AM

MSG Frank Kapaun — Sun, 20 May 2018 10:20:59 -0400

Great Ceasar’s ghost! Who the hell in their right mind would post something like this in a public forum? Lawyer the up buttercup.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made May 20 at 2018 11:35 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sun, 20 May 2018 11:35:56 -0400

1st
STOP POSTING HERE. (about this issue anyway)
2nd
Seek a lawyers opinion, one that has a proven record and history of UCMJ defense.
3rd TDS can only tell you what your options are for the ART15, that is their job,,,, they do not give you an opinion on should/should not accept NJP vice requesting trial by Court Marshal.

Lastly, no one here can really give you an opinion, never mind suggestion on a course of action reference the NJP without a lot more info.. The specific charges, the witnesses or physical proof, the stated intent of the CofC...and you absolutely should not be discussing any of that with an open internet forum... See point 1 & 2 above...

Response by SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint made May 20 at 2018 11:38 AM

SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint — Sun, 20 May 2018 11:38:04 -0400

If you think you are perfectly innocent, ask for a court martial.

Response by SPC Kelley McMahan made May 20 at 2018 2:00 PM

SPC Kelley McMahan — Sun, 20 May 2018 14:00:18 -0400

Well, two options if I recall. Let the CSM know that if pressed you will exercise either or both of your legal options. If JAG feels that the case is strong enough to prove you are being persecuted you could plan a well organised and fought appeal, or you could refuse the field grade and by legal right request a court martial. Now to be fair, both carry serious consequences if you fail. But having to stand in court and prove the case warranted a field grade might be something your LTC is not prepared to do.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made May 20 at 2018 2:42 PM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Sun, 20 May 2018 14:42:03 -0400

If for desertion, rape, assault, missing movement level of misconduct - a Field Grade Article 15 is too low.
If failure to obey a lawful command, failure to be at your place of duty (such as leaving a guard post while under arms), conduct that is detrimental to good order and discipline (lying to harm others), incitement of others to disobey – about right as long as your commander doesn’t elect for Trial by Military Court.
A Repeat offender that has already been given one of the lower levels Article 15 – sure sounds ok to me but I tended to put repeaters (strike three) out-of-service.
Do you work for the field grade commander? – If so, then he has no alternative since he is your immediate commander but may decide to give you a Summary, Company or Field Grade Article 15. The assumption that a field grade officer must give a Field Grade Article 15 is erroneous, but is also unusual. Most likely if that were the case the field grade commander would simply have his CSM reassign the offender to a unit with a commander of lower grade. If they had a clearance it would probably be toast also.
Officers with less than the rank of Major holding a position of command may present soldiers with either a Summary or Company Article 15 or give a recommendation to the next Field grade officer in the soldier’s Chain of Command for a Field Grade Article 15 – His decision.
It is also the company grade commander’s decision to authorize the soldier's chain of command to conduct additional training to improve the soldier's performance and to correct the soldier. For that purpose the additional training must be focused on the soldier’s deficiencies.
.
Example : In a failure to obey orders, the soldier may be given a series of orders under ‘close supervision’ by the soldier’s immediate (tier 1 CPL/SGT ) supervisor. Once the soldier, on inspection by the next higher supervisor/designated inspector (tier 2 SSG/PSG), completes the task(s) satisfactory the (tier 3 supervisor PL) informs the commander of the soldier’s successful completion of for what is in all intents – a retraining of a skill.
.
I would push for additional training for several reasons.
1. It retrained the soldier and improved their weak areas.
2. It gave my junior NCOs practice in leadership.The soldier would get used to following and the NCO would be refining his skills.
3. It exersized the chain of command from top to bottom and also across (by observation by non-involved parties) the tiers of leadership.
4. Lastly - it retained the soldier.
.
As several have recommended herein, you should seek legal counsel after you are presented the Article 15. Just because someone mentions the possibility doesn’t mean they’re going to follow-thru and this isn’t the forum for legal advice.
On that point, this really, really, really isn't the forum for legal counsel. We can provide advice. Mine own advice is see what shakes out and act accordingly - plus regardless of what got you in hot water – don’t do it again.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made May 20 at 2018 3:52 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Sun, 20 May 2018 15:52:41 -0400

Recommend you do not attempt to litigate your case in RP. You should seek assistance from the Area Defense Counsel, or the Army equivalent thereof.

Response by SSG Brian Lovins made May 21 at 2018 11:08 AM

SSG Brian Lovins — Mon, 21 May 2018 11:08:54 -0400

What do you mean your NCO's don't want to get involved, I have been out for a while and even longer since I was active duty but.
1) it wasn't ever a choice, it is their duty.
2) I recommended 2 Article 15s and during the reading the commander ask me the reason for it, recommended punishment and Soldiers conduct prior to this issue.
3) during an activation with the NG I had another SGT assigned to my squad that was sent to me because he had issues and was getting a field grade from his previous platoon, as squad leader I still had to sit in and do the same as I did for my own soldiers. I strongly disagreed with the punishment he was receiving and respectfully disagreed with the LTC, this wasn't my normal LTC from the guard side and I had never met this LTC but he did respect me for tactfully and respectfully voicing my opinion but it didn't stop him from punishing him as he saw fit. The point is as an NCO it is our job to take care of Soldiers. There is no I don't want to get involved.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made May 21 at 2018 12:24 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Mon, 21 May 2018 12:24:21 -0400

Depends on the offenses, I remember serving in units where the Battalion Commander reserved the authority to administer UCMJ for things like; drugs, SHARP, EO, sensitive items and security breaches.
Remember just because you are going through the UCMJ process doesn't mean you will be automatically found guilty and the commander can impose punishment for one or all charges or dismiss one or all charges. You also have the right to appeal the findings and punishments associated with the charges.
The NCOs who swear you are a stellar troop and are being targeted because you are a female combat arms Soldier can also appear as witnesses on your behalf and respectfully tell the Battalion Commander their opinion. My experience with NCOs who foment this sort of thing (alleging command bias) with young Soldiers usually talk a good game but lack the integrity to level the same accusation respectfully to the Commanders face.
You can also request a court martial if you believe the Commander is biased or you are innocent of all charges being referred against you.
I had the opportunity to advise Commanders on more UCMJ actions than I like to admit, many were cut and dry, some convoluted and in more than one instance unwarranted, at which time the commander dismissed the charges, but not until the second reading when we heard from witnesses on the Soldiers behalf and the Soldiers C of C and NCO support channels take on the charges.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2018 7:53 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 May 2018 19:53:59 -0400

whatever you get hit at in an article 15, at your paygrade, you can recover in 4 months. Take the article 15 with a grain of salt, it's a slap on the wrist for lower enlisted...now if you were an e5 or higher, I would be giving you different advice .

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 22 at 2018 9:19 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Tue, 22 May 2018 09:19:18 -0400

1. A field grade is not minor, Company grades are- a field grade is just 1 step from a court-martial. Outside of a training unit- many would consider a field grade to be a show stopper- with a possible chapter just down the road. It is up to the commander to decide- but he will run it thru JAG, and if JAG will not back him, then it will probably disappear. If it doesn't you may still appeal it to the next higher command- who will again consult with JAG.

Response by SPC Boyd Gilpin made May 27 at 2018 9:10 AM

SPC Boyd Gilpin — Sun, 27 May 2018 09:10:38 -0400

Take it off the internet this is a grenade waiting to go off. In theory discoverable by legal beagles I would assume. Coming from an E4 that had a lawyer save my ass because I made a phone call to JAG because an overzealous junior grade leader because he did not believe me when I insisted brigade staff was in the loop. Later wrote the statements that helped throw him under bus. Sorry to the awesome leaders this may accidentally offend. Brigade commander went on rampage to back me up. You need to relax and STHU. If possible be contrite

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2018 1:36 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 May 2018 13:36:06 -0400

Just want to thank everyone who gave their input. I understand the sensitive nature of such things and I made sure not to include any details. I was only seeking clarification and advice on the process as a system, not necessarily the finer points of guilty/not guilty, etc.

The matter has been resolved in a much less severe state than it originally was, as it was blown out of proportion. I did go back to legal one more time and request to speak to a different individual and it was much more helpful.

Again, thank you all for taking the time to humor my mess.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made May 27 at 2018 9:38 PM

SSgt Boyd Herrst — Sun, 27 May 2018 21:38:18 -0400

PFC Cas Bailey; it seems that wherever you go, there may be somebody that would like to make an example of you.. good or bad..
I entered the Regular AF, transferring from a Reserve Unit. I entered as an A1C, the rank I earned vraduating from BMT.
In BMT I did a by-pass test for my 3 skill level.. scored a 99% out of a 100.. Anyway when I reported in I was issued
6 sets of Cook Whites and nametape blanks and AF Tapes, command patches..& rank chevrons . I went to the
Riggers parachute shop and got e’thing put on in a matter of a couple hours.. Pockets on shirts are supposed to be serviceable(to be able to put stuff into)
I. Had them get the patches on quick as possible.. that meant putting them on without removing the pocket and sewing on outside the pocket and sewing it back on.. I got my shirts a lot faster that way. I would of had to return in a couple days.
I had enough excess material I got extra back pocket and flaps on all the trousers..
for a while nobody said anything about the extra pockets or sewing the command patches right on the shirts. I could still
Put a couple pens and a thermometer in the pocket.. I was on a deploy to Labrador.. and somebody noticed I had the bottoms of my trousers sewn.. no rolling up the cuffs.. and noticed the command patch was sewn Through the
Pocket.. and the extra back pocket and pocket flaps. By that time I had Velcro to hold the flaps down. .. Every morn I showed for work and inspection great haircut, clean uniform, how’d I pull that?
Scotch guard. It wasn’t called that then ..
S’thing else.. it was great, I didn’t need
Starch for creases. Well their SSGT had a jealous streak and I made his cooks look like slobs.. he wrote me up for the pocket flaps and extra pocket and command patch unserviceable pocket, a daily occurance. Illegal material protection
Chemical. No, it wasn’t flammable.. it would smolder and go out.. grease, oil ran off like water.. At the end of our deploy I had enough negative points to equal e’thing I done positive.. when I got back the Commander had me in his office.. in the end he decided none of it was my fault.. He blamed it on the Airmen’s Dining Facility NCOIC and the former Sqdn Cmdr. I got to keep the trousers the way they were.. they lasted
Several years .. that military grade scotch guard wore out with washing a lot.. it was for the coveralls the mechanics wore.. I got more eventually and put it in the rinse.. So there can be a solution to your prob.. just get the right person that’ll represent you and stay away from barracks lawyers,

Response by SP5 Paul Riley made May 30 at 2018 9:43 AM

SP5 Paul Riley — Wed, 30 May 2018 09:43:17 -0400

While I was deployed, the company I was attached to, a Reserve component out of California lost my mail. It contained a $650 camera. I complained loudly and even went to the IG because I was close to going home. I was given a field grade article15 for rolling my eyes to a senior NCO, and after I received the AR 15, the NCO who had lost my mail and did all the paperwork for the AR 15 took me aside and paid me $650 for the lost mail. JAG was a waste of time and my unit did nothing to help. In hindsight what I should have done was go for a court martial. I am retired, 20 years and am studying to be a lawyer and have that field grade AR 15 framed above my desk.

Response by MSgt Wayne Owens made Jun 15 at 2018 1:27 PM

MSgt Wayne Owens — Fri, 15 Jun 2018 13:27:10 -0400

By putting your case out for public consumption, you have alerted the legal profession. If you have a Senior NCO on your side, ask them to approach your CO on your behalf. Punishment based on gender. race, etc, is taboo. Are sure you're giving us all the facts?

Response by SFC Frederick Roquemore made Jun 19 at 2018 6:18 AM

SFC Frederick Roquemore — Tue, 19 Jun 2018 06:18:55 -0400

I think a public forum is the best place to discuss this! There should be no secrets when it comes to UCMJ proceedings. The Command should have nothing to hide! If you’re innocent, ALWAYS take the Court Martial. It costs the Army a lot of money to convene aCourt Martial; and, if the charges are frivolous, they will throw it out before it even goes to trial.

Response by SMSgt Ed Turney made Jun 28 at 2018 7:11 PM

SMSgt Ed Turney — Thu, 28 Jun 2018 19:11:23 -0400

First of all, ARE YOU GUILTY of the the "Charges"? If yes and the Ltc. has the proof,you may want to sign it and move on. Keep in mind that he has retained the advice if the JAG to guide him. Normally one would not charge one unless they were damn sure they could get a conviction by a Court Marshal. I think the JAG advised you correctly

Response by SGT Greg Gold made Jul 1 at 2018 10:24 PM

SGT Greg Gold — Sun, 01 Jul 2018 22:24:10 -0400

I will share with you my tale of beating a field grade Article 15. The short of it was I pushed back by gathering sworn statements showing my innocence, then I presented my evidence to my O6 prior to the actual scheduled NJP. I stated that under no circumstances what so ever would I sign an Article 15, so if the COC wanted to go forward it would be by court martial. I KNEW I was in the right, and knew how to play my COC to get the result I wanted because I had help from my BN CSM. In your case your only option is seek private council because JAG is probably too busy with real crime to step in and represent you.

Bottom line is NEVER sign an Article-15 if you are innocent. If you sign that you disagree you are still signing off on your acceptance of punishment under Article 15. If you are really innocent it would have been worked out by your COC, and the NJP wouldn't be necessary.

Response by SPC James J. Johnson Jr. made Jul 3 at 2018 7:32 PM

SPC James J. Johnson Jr. — Tue, 03 Jul 2018 19:32:08 -0400

Overall is very uncommon. But there are some mitigating factors, like the severity of the first offense for example

Response by Capt Mike Razor made Jul 11 at 2018 1:00 PM

Capt Mike Razor — Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:00:53 -0400

If my memory serves and things have not changed all NJP is run by the legal office for approval.

Response by SPC Joseph Durham made Jul 17 at 2018 12:18 AM

SPC Joseph Durham — Tue, 17 Jul 2018 00:18:11 -0400

PFC (Verify To See)
Ok, let's look at this from a career perspective. I seen a lot of SGM's that lost a stripe or two early in their careers. They buckled down and did their jobs afterwards. Unless you are being accused of something truly horrible, you are not going to lose a stripe. You will be losing money and it maybe be a lot of it. Get all the speakers you can. Especially if they are in your chain of command. If you can't get speakers, quoting the UCMJ for your actions is probably the least effective. I lost a rank. I had it made up and promoted the next rank higher with in a year E-3 down to E-2 then promoted twice to E-4. How? I didn't take the punishment personal. It was a guide to put me on the correct path. That was all. I kicked ass and did my job. Everybody in the motor pool was coming to me for answers and all I was was the XO's jeep driver.

Response by CPL Douglas Chrysler made Aug 1 at 2018 1:12 PM

CPL Douglas Chrysler — Wed, 01 Aug 2018 13:12:30 -0400

If you are able to use a civilian lawyer, find one that restores gun rights and isn't a publicity seeker.

Response by CPO William A. Bullard Jr. made Aug 4 at 2018 5:35 PM

CPO William A. Bullard Jr. — Sat, 04 Aug 2018 17:35:23 -0400

Article 15 is Non_Judicial Punishment. Read any and all of UCMJ; you don't have to be JAG or Legal Beagle officer to understand it. It was written by King and King [Virginia Law firm] and they will defend you over any article of UCMJ except for Article 86; Absence from appointed Place of Duty. "...,if you ain't there...you ain't there...". At the close of the narrative describing the offence to be command sanctioned there is the discrete wording "...or as a Court Martial may direct...". To even get to a Courts Martial stage you must first have to go through NJP [Non-Judicial Punishment]; you cannot be taken to Courts Martial otherwise. In USN we call NJP "Captain's Mast" My Marine Corps calls it "Officer Hours"; maybe Army and USAF have a different term for it. When you are brought to NJP, command is absolutely required to read the specificity of the charges to you and they are required to warn you that anything you may say may be used against you, that you may remain silent under UCMJ Article 31 [There must absolutely be a presentation of UCMJ Article 31 rights]; this even takes place in Senior NCO pre-mast screening recommendations to Command. It is your right to stand silent and your silence CANNOT be interpreted pro forma as guilt. This is your right; on the obverse side of this coin you have to remember that this is Non-Judicial punishment and while there are certain provisions of protocol that are in force in 'JUDICIAL" proceedings, command is NOT necessarily bound to follow them. There are even cases where they don't even have to listen to witnesses you have who are "willing" to speak for you, seen that a couple of times; this is Non-Judicial Punishment; Remember that. At the end of NJP, command is required to speak and notify you here; there is NO option of silence here on command's part. It is your right under UCMJ to disagree with Non-Judicial punishment findings, the punishment imposed ,and demand a Courts-Martial. They have to notify you of that; I put thirty six years in my Navy, two tours and three campaigns in VietNam and never once did I see that NOT happen Not a barracks lawyer here but it does 'seem' [without knowing more] from the sketchiness of your narrative that command is not following the criteria of rights and responsibilities lectures that are incessantly pounded on and that you should have gotten in Basic. good luck--Anchor'sAweigh/SemperFi-- Chief BUll

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2018 9:06 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Aug 2018 09:06:36 -0400

I think you should consult with Trial Defense Service or an off-post lawyer to assist. Don't listen to the barracks lawyer about what you should or should not do, listen to an actual lawyer. If you feel this is not just, then you have the option to decline NJP and take a court martial. But, speak to a lawyer first.

Response by SSG Paul Forel made Aug 15 at 2018 11:45 PM

SSG Paul Forel — Wed, 15 Aug 2018 23:45:19 -0400

I hope you are not one of those types who likes to argue during a rocket attack.

Response by CPT William Jones made Apr 26 at 2020 12:15 PM

CPT William Jones — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 12:15:33 -0400

Not knowing case particulars no one has to accept an ART 15-But refuse and the commander can either drop it or court martial you. so your choices are discuss it with the commander it is your Right. When presented the ball is in your court. Accept or reject-Then the commander has to drop or court-martial. I would assume a field grade officer is not bluffing. JAG has some requirements to assist at least a little. Talk to a JAG officer he is a lawyer all Enlisted in the office are clerks or one sort or another

Response by CPT William Jones made Apr 26 at 2020 12:39 PM

CPT William Jones — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 12:39:15 -0400

I would think for minor stuff it is rare unless you are in his area. but what is minor some think DWI first off is minor. However my oponion is it is right in line with shooting at the CO.I wouls start with a general courts martial if command allowed it. My son a major now had a very close friend killed by o first time dwi would like to just call a formation and shoot them as an example.

Response by Cpl Vic Burk made Nov 1 at 2020 6:36 PM

Cpl Vic Burk — Sun, 01 Nov 2020 18:36:18 -0500

Without more information nobody can really comment (not that we should anyways). If you are getting field grade Article 15 there is obviously more to it and more than we need to know. I can speak from experience on this one. The first and only time I ever got office hours (Article 15) was field grade office hours in boot camp. I won't go into the details but I was in mighty deep $hit! It was referred to the battalion level because the company commander could only give me seven days hard labor. The company commander wanted me to get twenty days but the Colonel only gave me ten because I had never gotten into any trouble up until then. The longest ten days of my life. Ten days of breaking rock, I definitely did not want to go back there again.

Response by SPC John Tacetta made Nov 1 at 2020 9:04 PM

SPC John Tacetta — Sun, 01 Nov 2020 21:04:37 -0500

Probably all said and done by now. How'd it go?

I once was threatened with an Article 15, but I let it be known that I would never sign it because it was chicken shit. The CPT "miraculously" got called away that day and I never heard anything more about it. I've seen guys go before a court martial and be exonerated. I've seen them convicted as well. If you truly feel you didn't do anything wrong you must get a lawyer. You have the right to remain silent: use it.

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Nov 2 at 2020 12:43 AM

SMSgt Bob Wilson — Mon, 02 Nov 2020 00:43:22 -0500

Ah, sexual harassment. Bottom Line: You screw up and you a subject to UCMJ action. Many commanders have loss their ability to let the punishment fit the crime. The promotion eval for the "O" crowd taking into account the performance of the unit--UCMJ actions. If I see a "bird" or "stars" in my future, I'm going to "hang everything out to dry" to ensure I get that promotion is todays mentality.

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Dec 22 at 2020 5:17 PM

SSG Bill McCoy — Tue, 22 Dec 2020 17:17:56 -0500

When legal told you it wasn't even worth written counseling, they should have/may have also advised you that you could request a Trial by Courts Martial. If you Command seeks a Court Martial, SJA will review their case and recommend whether or not charges are warranted.
Twice, I've done that - once in the Navy, and once in the Army ... and both times nothing continued; BUT ... every case is unique and you don't dare do that unless you are certain you can win. Even then, it's still a bit of a gamble.
In my case, there was NO "grudge" held by my CO's, or anyone else in my chain of command. I suppose that could be a concern.

Response by Stephanie Rose made Jan 20 at 2022 8:34 PM

Stephanie Rose — Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:34:04 -0500

Hello