How do CSMs select the best future SFCs of the Army?

CW2(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 May 2015 15:01:01 -0400

I've always wondered what exactly is looked for while the board is being conducted. I know we have all been told throughout our careers that NCOERs, 1059s(Commadants List), Schools, College, Physical fitness, Duty Positions and general appearance are highly looked upon.

However, every time the board results are released there's many Soldiers who lack a lot of what's asked of them, leaving with a sequence number. Then there are Soldiers who have done everything they possibly could, even volunteering for the worst jobs i.e. Drill Sergeant & R.I. who get looked over.

Am I missing something? I feel I've done everything I could. I know I lack ranger, but I have strong NCOERs and everything else I've listed above. Don't refrain from honesty, but what else could I or anyone else looking for that next level of responsibility do?

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2015 3:12 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 May 2015 15:12:25 -0400

SSG Moore, we really look for the one who has done better than the average bear...beyond the ordinary. Too many people think they should be promoted for what they have done, not for what they are expected to do!! Your record should indicate your potential and your ability to live up to your potential. How do you communicate that? How many happy soldiers do you see in a file photo? Looking stern and tough is fine, but do you exude confidence and competence? You met the standard if we are looking at your file. I want to promote you, and I am not looking for reasons NOT to promote you. Sometimes we have to look at it that way to cull the herd later, but it's a very fair process.
In my case we draw a line and then relook people just above and below it in both zones. People do get moved up to meet standards, goals, career field gaps and looking to the future. If you make SFC you can make Sgt Major. But the competition gets keener, with more qualified people at each level (you know the song about statutory limits on the number of E8s and E9s (1 to 3 percent or whatever it is now).
If I am looking at six staff sergeants who all have the same career track, nice NCOERs, PT, similar awards, the standard.... it might come down to how one looks in uniform, whether ribbons are correct, how many times they've been deployed or overseas--and of course how well you did there. Were you in a higher graded position? What does your past record say about your future success. But the fellow who stands out is often the one who added something new to his/her record each year--someone who made an investment in the Army and who the Army made an investment in. Folks in the 'tough' jobs surely do get moved up--but with today's tempo all jobs are tough. It's what you did in the job, how you improved yourself that impresses me if you want a 6+++++ vote. Special, nominative Assignments put you in another class; they tend to also follow a career track. So volunteer through your branch or get nominated any one you can (SHAPE, DOD, embassy, instructor, etc).

Response by BG David Fleming III made May 29 at 2015 3:32 PM

BG David Fleming III — Fri, 29 May 2015 15:32:00 -0400

Promotion are based on vacancies! After the board convenes, a list is generated and approved. Once you've done all you can to put yourself in contention for promotion, timing is everything and being in the right positions at the right time. Lastly , really make your desires known to the decision makers.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2015 3:47 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 May 2015 15:47:46 -0400

SSG Moore, fortunately we will soon have a better answer to your question. The changes to the NCOER will allow boards to truly see who is the best among the force as compared to their peers. Not just the right jobs, but whether they were above the center of mass versus just some subjective random bullets which justify a non-controlled box check. "Strong NCOERs" are relative. I have seen very few weak NCOERs. Only a handful of mediocre NCOERs. The rest are strong. I'd say about 70-80% of them. That's way over the "center of mass" ideology. I'll be glad to finally see some rigor in this sytem.

Response by SFC Joseph James made May 29 at 2015 3:53 PM

SFC Joseph James — Fri, 29 May 2015 15:53:02 -0400

Not sure how I got it on my first look! Must had puppy dog eyes in the DA photo! lol

Response by MSG Martin C. made May 29 at 2015 3:57 PM

MSG Martin C. — Fri, 29 May 2015 15:57:55 -0400

I have a slide show that will answer all of your questions, send me a PM with your preferred email and I will send it your way.
I will also tell you that you must remain positive, unfortunately for your particular MOS is very difficult to get promoted. When I was a DS and DSL I had great guys that because of their MOS could not advance.
You must remember that is all dependent on billets available, if there is no room or little room it will definitely be competitive as it is on your case.
I would recommend you to look in to moving to another CMF completely and here is why. I had a DSL that was an 11C, he was a stud, had all the schools and requirements minus Ranger school. He never made it as 11C I had him look into Civil Affairs and PsyOps, he chose PsyOps he was pick up for E7 on his first look. My point here is that with the draw down, you are either stick it in your field and take that gamble or go to where there is a need and room.
I know that this can be tough on anyone specially combat arms MOS because the comradely it exist amongst your kind, but the reality is that we are in a organization that is constantly changing and evolving and guys in your shoes either move with the change or will take a chance to get left behind.
I don't know your specific career path but I can imagine you have invested a lot into the Army, so please don't feel bad if the game has change.
You are in a tough MOS the former 1SG of the B Co at the USADSS was a 11C and it took him forever to get promoted vs. the 1SG of A Co an MP that made E8 under 13 years. It's a numbers game.
Feel free to email me for that slide show, I'll be glad to share that with you.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2015 4:16 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 May 2015 16:16:45 -0400

It's a mishmash of inconsistent reasons that only THEY know, and it changes every year, for reasons ONLY they know, and will never fully explain. Yes, I'm bitter, and angry, that I'll retire an E-6. But then I watch people make it on first looks who couldn't march their way out of a shithouse. It's not even just me. I've seen guys and gals who are 10x more deserving as I not make it.

Who knows what they're thinking when they make selections. Probably just a wall, blindfolds, and a dartboard.

Response by SSG Daniel Deiler made May 29 at 2015 5:33 PM

SSG Daniel Deiler — Fri, 29 May 2015 17:33:30 -0400

I'm with you @ Ssg Reginald Grady. I've seen nearly identical AAR comments year in and year out, avoided what they said to avoid, did the things they suggested and like you, still will be retiring a SSG while I watch others who fluff their ERB's and evals get a sequence number. What I have noticed is they'd rather promote younger leaders (aka "yes men") who they can indoctrinate rather than keep the experienced and trained old Soldiers like us who have a backbone and won't cave in when the good idea fairy waves the magic wand. Today's Army would make the great generals like Patton and Bradley roll over in their graves. Politics politics politics.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2015 5:54 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 May 2015 17:54:33 -0400

So many bitter responses here. If you don't make the list you have no one to blame but yourself. It is no coincidence when you see a SMA get selected because they have done the necessary things to standout. for a long time I thought getting awards and special schools made you standout but came to realize that it's your true character and knowledge of certain things that is important to the military and bettering the organization that did the trick. Sometimes a little bit of who you know and who is writing your evaluations. If your tater cannot formulate a worthy bullet then you will get screwed. And I'm saying this because you can save a nation and your eater puts he saved a few ppl from being injured one summer afternoon. I can go on but just understand that not making the list is as simple as not having a well formed bullet on your NCOER. And as another NCO said earlier how you look in the uniform take pride in them.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2015 6:10 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 May 2015 18:10:15 -0400

When it comes to NCOERs, at least with the ones from a few years ago, you had to take a lot of things into consideration - who the rating chain was, were they full of BS, were they lazy, was there obvious signs of something not passing the smell test, etc.

You mentioned a few other things I looked at:
1059's-Exceed course standards? What schools?
College Hours?
APFT?
Duty/Leadership Positions?

A few other things I looked for:
Deployments?
Official Photo?
Awards?
Military Correspondence Courses?
Volunteer Work?

I wanted to know what you had done to make yourself a better Soldier since joining the military and what you had done recently. If you hadn't done anything in the past 12 to 24 months, you were basically telling me you were done learning and growing and therefore I wasn't going to consider you. You can always take a correspondence course, improve your APFT, volunteer or mentor someone - do something to learn or grow and try to improve yourself.

Response by SGT Michael LoBosco made May 29 at 2015 6:43 PM

SGT Michael LoBosco — Fri, 29 May 2015 18:43:02 -0400

Nothing wrong with that bro

Response by SFC Steven Harvey made May 29 at 2015 7:11 PM

SFC Steven Harvey — Fri, 29 May 2015 19:11:28 -0400

The two biggest things I can think of to answer your question is staying too long in a position (especially non leadership slots) and Raters who don't know how to write.

I've seen a lot of NCOERs where they were written terribly for great leaders.

It's all about how the NCOERs read and what the Senior Rater comments say.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made May 29 at 2015 10:49 PM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Fri, 29 May 2015 22:49:11 -0400

Brother, Obviously I don't know or I would not have retired as a Staff Sergeant.

I continue to feel that the DA centralized boards should be required to tell each and every NCO that does not get selected WHY he did not get selected.

I still believe and will till the day I die feel that they do not release board scores to avoid class action lawsuits like when the white male officers sued, AND WON, because the officer selection boards used race and/or gender as a determining factor.

I had a first sergeant once that when I raised that possibility, he asked me "well, are you not willing to take one for the team so that they can correct the issues of the past?" and a Command Sergeant Major that told me I should change my ethnicity to Native American (My grandmother was Cherokee), and...I heard a female NCO telling a female NCO that was not going to reenlist "Reup...You are black and female, you will make E-8 at least."

So, if you want to prevent this crap, just release the board score of EVERYONE, and prove that NOT ONE single individual got a second look because of race or ethnicity. Transparency is a must.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2015 4:06 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 30 May 2015 16:06:50 -0400

I really believe that they use a really big dart board with all the names on it. Then they are given darts equal to the amount of SFC's they can promote for the fiscal year. Then they put on blind folds and take turns throwing at the board. Once that is complete they hand write the names selected onto college ruled paper in reverse alphabitical order so as to use all the time given for the selection board.

In all seriousness....keep doing what you are doing....eventually they will realize your potential and select you. I was looked at four times before being selected so I know how you feel. Keep looking for jobs with increased responsibility and make sure it is stated so on your NCOERs.

Hopefully the dart hit your name come July!! Good luck!!

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2015 5:06 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 30 May 2015 17:06:13 -0400

I honestly don't know what CSM's look for when selecting SSG's to become SFC's but I can only assume that they look at the total body of work. How well does your NCOER articulate your current performance and predict your future potential. How clean is your IPERMS and ERB. High APFT score, high marksmanship, awards for other than MOS performance, awards for NCO of the year boards, PME completion, diverse Military education completion, college degrees, SAMC, SGT Morales, DS duty, recruiting duty, instructor time and overall comments made by your senior rater. I made SFC prior to going Warrant Officer and I hit many of these items on the list that I just mentioned. Can you take care of Soldiers and are you proficient in your MOS? In my opinion and based off of my experience as an NCO and now as a Warrant Officer, these are the things that all promotion board members should be looking for.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2015 1:42 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 31 May 2015 01:42:51 -0400

I also have an question towards this topic... I'd like to view it differently.. I'm in the national guard for 7 years and have been active for 6. Years always on orders(AGR and ADOS) my boat is also my NCOER are 1 and 2 with overall potential always an 1 and bullet mention promote ahead of peers and put in higher position...my awards, pt, ASI, schools,NCOES etc. are always top three SGT in the battalion or higher. I also compete in competition and won them and made my self an name.. I'm awaiting my staff where as this situation I'm first on the promotion list as an 31B (military police). Then again I'm worried I won't be getting it due to good boy system as well as them not reading my documents and seeing the potential I may have.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made May 31 at 2015 8:15 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sun, 31 May 2015 08:15:10 -0400

You can have a great record, yet not be one to always look forward to see what needs to be done, how it can be done better and how can I influence others towards the completion of the mission. Seeing remarks from first line leaders that show you've been one who leads from the front, is educated ( not only book smart, but practical smart). One who doesn't settle for the standard but looks to go that extra step. Not always a 300 on APFT, but did he/she always do and try to exceed their best?

Just some small things to think about.

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made May 31 at 2015 8:47 AM

SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL — Sun, 31 May 2015 08:47:38 -0400

CW2(P) Private RallyPoint Member maybe this post, will give you some insight.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/senior-nco-board-tips-in-a-recent-army-times-article-for-the-fy-2015-msg-board-what-are-your-thoughts

Senior NCO Board Tips, In A Recent Army Times Article For The FY 2015 MSG Board. (What are your...

First and Foremost Congrats to all the newly selected Master Sergeants. I always want to pass on information, so all is aware of the boards AARs comments. End result (hence) promotion next year! A senior NCO selection board again has reported that too many soldiers have missing or inaccurate official photos in the documents packet that will determine if they get promoted. As with previous boards, missing and inaccurate photos put soldiers on...

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2015 8:56 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 31 May 2015 08:56:57 -0400

SPC Robert Halvorson is the only one so far on this thread that is looking forward to what folks need to do for the next round of boards. The new NCOER system, with rater and senior rater profiles, changes promotion boards for NCOs completely. No longer will the vast majority of NCOERs viewed by the board members be top-blocks. If this tracks to anything like officer promotions and evaluations, the only things that will matter are 1) senior rater block check and 2) the first sentence of the senior rater comment. Anything but a top block check from the senior rater ( limited to 49% of the profile, as confirmed at time of submission to DA by DA) and a quantifiable stratification in the first sentence of the senior rater comments ("#1 of 11,000 SFC I senior rate") will matter. This likely includes the robust comments on this thread about folks doing extra stuff to improve their records----extra schools and etc might help one get a top block, but the top block is all that will matter. The only reason extra stuff is now looked at for boards is that everyone gets a top block because there is currently no forced distribution for ratings. With forced distribution, only top performers as documented on the NCOER will get promoted.

I hope HRC's training for the new NCOER emphasizes this point, and provides instruction on how to manage rater and senior rater profiles. As SSG Roger Ayscue and others note, folks on small populations suffer a bit with forced distribution, although raters are given 3 empty slots to pad their profile.

Also, I might be wrong on my expectations. Despite the new system, CSMs on boards might still prioritize things like ribbon order and the DA photo above documented performance; as others have alluded, we'll likely never know, as the Army isn't exactly transparent with the facts about why folks get promoted or not, and I doubt that will change with the new NCOER.

I also still wonder about the legality of including a photo in a promotion packet. Bias being an unconcious thing, surely showing the board a photo triggers the unconcious biases of the board members. Maybe someday someone will sue the Army to change this potentially discriminatory process, which would probably lead to a higher emphasis placed on performance. After all, if the board members don't spend half their time inspecting the da photo, they could focus more on evaluated performance.

At any rate, it will be 3-5 years before there are enough of the new NCOERs in the system to make an evaluation. That's unfortunate, because it does add a bit more uncertainty to what appears to already be a rather uncertain process.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2015 9:23 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 31 May 2015 21:23:37 -0400

SSG Phillip Moore I am a person who believes in "everything happens for a reason" and when it's time to get promoted you will get promoted. I am a prime believer of always working a level higher than my pay grade. Taking myself as a example I always put myself up front regardless of the mission or the task and accomplish it no matter what. I take care of troops day by day. Throughout my army career I have met a lot of different soldiers peers, subordinates and seniors that I have learned so much from on what not to do and what to do right. If you are planning on making this 20+ years you will excel I have no doubt of that brother.

Response by SGM Eric Lobsinger made Jun 1 at 2015 12:45 AM

SGM Eric Lobsinger — Mon, 01 Jun 2015 00:45:31 -0400

Sitting on the board is tough. You have the Soldiers' record jackets there in front of you but you don't have the Soldier nor his raters. NCOERs and AERs are very important snapshots of a soldiers performance. What you've accomplished is very important ... only if it is actually someplace in your documents or NCOERS. The board members change each year, which also provides some interesting dynamics in identifying the most deserving soldiers for promotion. What you do day-to-day truly matters, and it is up to the rated soldier to ensure the rater is aware of those accomplishments. Many soldiers "self identify" themselves for not advancing through measures such as PT failure, Ht/Wt/bf%, some for relief-for-cause, and other self identifiers for elimination unfortunately. Just be the best soldier you can be. Volunteer for the new tasking or skill qualifier. Find way to make yourself stand out from your peers. Also keep one thing in mind, YOU don't get to see the soldiers records. Sitting on a board, I came across a solider who I knew was a go-getter, super trooper, the one ... all up until I saw the "documents" in the records. Good luck. Be the best you that you can be.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2015 9:38 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Jun 2015 09:38:59 -0400

Remember that it is not all about your records and accomplishments. You could be the best of the best in the whole board but be in an MOS that is over strength and therefore, not receive a sequence number. There could be a rag bag that is qualified for promotion while you are best qualified and sharp as a tack but again, his MOS is new, 25D is an example, and they need to fill the ranks.

It may not sound fair but think of it holistically. If we only promoted the hard charging infantry types with tabs and badges we would have no senior leaders for the other MOS out there. The semi-centralized and centralized promotion systems are not geared for individuals but the Army as a whole.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2015 10:25 AM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:25:42 -0400

In my experience it has a lot to do with being transparent to your Job, meaning you should look to broaden your assignments as best as you can, I agree with CSM Oldsen to an extent, if you know that you are going to be successful by changing over to an 11B then you should, however; it comes with a cost and I think he nailed it. you have to be 100% certain that will enhance your career path. I have had SSG's that have re classed to 11B from 11C but keep in mind they had the "V" and it made since for them.

follow the trend of what the board is looking for, as well as the Army. its not a secret they publish the field board every time the have a board. that is the golden ticket for NCOs. Be competitive in your field, update your records accordingly, and be patient. I know its easy to say these things but look at what you think you have to do in order to separate yourself from your peer group and do it. In the Army today you must be marketable. best of luck!

Response by CW2(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 16 at 2015 4:19 PM

CW2(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 16:19:32 -0400

I was selected!!! Thanks everyone!