How do I address a height and weight situation?

2014-10-10T14:06:03-04:00

Today was the company H/W. I personally always have to be taped but have no problems passing. As I stood waiting for my calculations A very large SFC was being taped. This particular NCO has been on the program for more than a year. She also recommended a chapter for a soldier based on H/W. That soldier is now my soldier. Her(the NCO) waist measurements were called out as 2 inches less than mine. When I say this is not possible I mean THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE! My mouth literally fell open. I was then told I needed to leave because I was done. All of the tapers were also SFCs and a 1sg (not in my company). I know it was a flat out lie. How do I/ Should I address this further?

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 2:09 PM

2014-10-10T14:09:14-04:00

SGT Alicia Brenneis, you might take it up with your First Sergeant, in a one-on-one session. I can certainly see that this is a sticky situation. It's technically not your business, but we have been taught not to walk by a mistake (or in this case, apparently, dishonesty).

Other options might be the Commander's open door policy or the IG, but I would think (hope, at least) that your First Sergeant will have good advice for you. And as a First Sergeant, he or she is in a better position to address the situation.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 2:09 PM

2014-10-10T14:09:19-04:00

Wow...integrity check..

I would bring it up to the Chain of command. Write a statement. Someone should re-tape and sounds like some re-training!

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Oct 10 at 2014 2:15 PM

2014-10-10T14:15:43-04:00

SGT Alicia Brenneis, I would absolutely take this event up with your PSG and 1SG. I would also annotate your observations on a MFR. When I was a 1SG, weigh-ins were in "cattle lines" meaning that there a line and everyone got on the scale. If there was taping that needed to be done, that was done with two to three personnel behind closed doors for privacy for the Soldier being taped. The Soldiers conducting the tape were of the same sex as the Soldier being taped. Again, that was how I conducted weigh-ins and taping. Take it up with your NCO Support Channel.

Response by SPC David S. made Oct 10 at 2014 3:01 PM

2014-10-10T15:01:28-04:00

Take it up the CoC. Even if its a mistake (minor), its not right and needs to be fixed. However if its a blatant lie (major issue) it needs to be corrected.

Response by Sgt Jennifer Mohler made Oct 10 at 2014 9:25 PM

2014-10-10T21:25:45-04:00

Along with the rest of the advice here, if she is your soldier then you can tape her yourself. Bring a witness with you, and have you and your witness sign it. Bring the documentation of the taping (do yourself again too if you want for added integrity) and have this as evidence that you are not just pointing fingers and something wrong really occurred.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Oct 11 at 2014 1:25 PM

2014-10-11T13:25:44-04:00

SGT Alicia Brenneis Apples and Oranges to some degree....Army and AF are similar but different.

We too have a PT requirement that includes a waist measurement. Where ours differs from yours, is that we USED to have a HT/WT, now, we have a waist measurement, followed by push ups, sit ups and run.

So..in the measurement category, males (no matter the heigh)t, must tape at 39 or less. Females at 35 or less (around the waist, at top of hip bone-which is the fattest part of most bodies). Constant source of friction. Just ask anyone over the age of 27.

If someone is out of range, there is a BMI calculation that can be done (and I confess that I would have to look up that formula), my general understanding is that making that a passing measurement is difficult (AF folks chime in if that is accurate).

Anyway, all of my AF brethren will relate that they have seen people that are "passing", and know that there is simply no way that they are measuring under that range. It is a regular source of irritation, as there are good folks that are being put out for failure, while there are some that somehow manage to stay in.....a-la the situation that you are describing.

My advice to you would be as many others have stated, address it. If you are sure that this occurred, you would have a duty to bring it to someone's attention. The downside of this is that there will be fallout. That fallout could be from the troops, the other NCOs, and even the COC. You would be in the morally correct category, and the "personally difficult" category. I would think that your 1stSgt would be a good POC, as he/she is familiar with process and likely knows all those who did the measuring. Of course me being a cynic, I know, hard to believe, he will likely hear something along the lines of "she has a Hourglass figure"

Good luck.

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Oct 11 at 2014 6:38 PM

2014-10-11T18:38:41-04:00

As I read this question, all I could say was "wow." All I can say is that if you believe someone is lying to keep this person in, I'd make a formal complaint. Now the question is how to do that. I'm not sure.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 11 at 2014 11:42 PM

2014-10-11T23:42:35-04:00

After many years in the Army, active and reserve, I can tell you this is not an isolated incident but not pandemic in the Army. This places you in a precarious position. Without proof that someone purposefully fudged the tape in the NCOs favor it would be hard to bring this forward for change and at the same time implicating several other senior NCOs as being complicit. Using your NCO support channel, as mentioned, would probably be best option if you really want to pursue this, prefacing the meeting with "I need your advice. How would be respond or proceed?"...and lay out the exact scenario you mentioned and tell that you believe the waist numbers recored were lower than actual. This could also have the potential to backfire on you. Tough decision.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2014 12:05 AM

2014-10-12T00:05:15-04:00

I can't tell you what to do but if you say something expect a negative reaction.

Of the few times I can recall where I made a tough choice to do the hard right instead of the easy wrong the end result never did me any favors.

Do what you think is right but be ready for it to ruffle some feathers.

Response by SFC Wilford Coleman Jr, made Oct 12 at 2014 12:29 AM

2014-10-12T00:29:48-04:00

Hey Brenneis just because a person looks bigger than you doesn't mean there waist is bigger than yours.The situation with your SFC will take care of itself if there is any wrong doing. The best thing you can do as a young Sgt is to take care of your soldier. Concentrate on helping your soldier get off the overweight program, and you will gain the respect of your soldiers and your chain of command. Remember we had the same problem in our company and after about one month of special PT and counseling everyone either made weight or made tape. The most important thing was that they all thanked the PT instructors and were grateful for what we did to help them.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Oct 12 at 2014 12:33 AM

2014-10-12T00:33:24-04:00

First of all, you are describing an ethics issue, not a 'height and weight" issue.

Second, you try to avoid conflating this NCO's "special treatment" with the handling of your soldier's case. Advocate for your soldier based upon her own performance -- that is the best and most ethical thing you can do for her.

As to what action you should take regarding this "very large SFC", that depends upon how much you're willing to risk to remind senior NCOs that regulations and laws (such as Article 107 of the UCMJ) still apply to them. If I was in your shoes, I'd offer your NCO chain an opportunity to intervene, but with a clear understanding that a visit to the Inspector General could be on your agenda. (CAVEAT: That advice comes from someone who was willing to give up a stripe when the occasion demanded.)

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2014 11:12 AM

2014-10-12T11:12:18-04:00

Call it like you see it. It's an integrity issue and needs to be addressed. It's not fair to those who are trying their hardest to maintain the fitness standards.

Response by Cpl Peter Cila made Oct 12 at 2014 1:08 PM

2014-10-12T13:08:43-04:00

What I Would do, is report it back to your own chain of command ASAP, and bring any documentations regarding this incident. I know that they make errors on doing the Height and Weight, and a lot of units do not do this correctly.

Response by PO2 Rocky Kleeger made Oct 13 at 2014 3:59 PM

2014-10-13T15:59:57-04:00

If you find out, please let me know. I had to deal with situations like that my entire career and was never able to do anything about it, no matter how much I bitched...and it was a lot, by the way

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Oct 14 at 2014 6:10 PM

2014-10-14T18:10:04-04:00

Good luck with this one. Like you, it concerns me when there is a perception of an integrity violation. I want standards to be enforced fairly and accurately. I definitely do not agree with the Army's H/W standards, especially since I've started bodybuilding last year. I think you're best bet is to say you are just questioning if the waist measurement was correct. If you phrase it less like an accusation you might get a better response. Maybe state something like "I thought I heard them say her waist was 32, but maybe I misheard and it was 42." "I don't think her waist could be 32, based on my measurements and the measurements of other women I know and just wanted to ensure it was annotated correctly. Especially if the other NCO heard it 'incorrectly' as well." This could potentially give those NCOs an 'out' for fudging numbers (if they did so), but I also think it would have a better chance of getting addressed.

It really depends on what you're looking for here. If you just want it annotated correctly or if you want to know if those NCOs are fudging numbers. My experience is that senior leaders do not take it well if you question their integrity or intentions or those of a 'friend'. I'd just be prepared for potential lashback from those leaders that do not take kindly to soldiers pointing out errors or mistakes in their actinos.

Response by SGT Alicia Brenneis made Oct 18 at 2014 8:48 AM

2014-10-18T08:48:57-04:00

Update. I did talk with my 1SG. He told me he already knew and was handling it. I asked him how he knew and even though he didn't have to tell me he did. Apparently even with the "mistake" she still did not pass. When he was going over previous records he saw the "difference" that was unlikely from her previous tape. She was re-taped. I want to thank everyone who gave me advice and supported me in bringing this to my 1sg. He did tell me I should not have waited a week to talk to him and of course not to go around talking about it to others in the unit. Thanks again for all the advice.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Jan 13 at 2015 12:09 PM

2015-01-13T12:09:51-05:00

Simple, I would go to IG and let them know what is going on and suggest that this SFC be taken off to the side by complete strangers and taped again, then I would have the NCO's who falsified the documents investigated to find out how many other Fudges they have made to save a non deserving NCO's career and end theirs as well. If she can trash a soldier for the very same thing she suffers from ...I have no respect... if others lie to cover someone else then no respect there either.

Response by COL John Hudson made Dec 18 at 2015 10:04 AM

2015-12-18T10:04:20-05:00

Alicia, you need to bring this to the attention of your command. It that's not possible, write it up in a 100% dispassionate manner, stating FACTs as you know them, then see your local Inspector General. If you're not comfortable doing that, they will accept an anonymous letter or phone call and WILL act on either method. The sort of distortion you are articulating is simply not acceptable in our military house.

And one more example. We had a Sgt. E-5 in our unit who was a very large human being. Note I did not say "fat." He stood about 6' 9" in his bare feet, was in extremely excellent physical condition and had actually applied to the National Football League for a linebacker position. He failed every H/W test the Army had. The test limitations simply did not address a person of his physical size and it was suggested he may be facing a medical board for discharge. As the Regional IG, I was asked to travel to the Unit to resolve this impasse. With my IG assistant, we performed a text-book H/W assessment and verified he met no measure there. But...so what? The final authority is (and will always be) the local unit commander. He needed only to document this soldier presented an acceptable military appearance at all times (not being seen as overweight or slovenly), passed all PT requirements (boy, did he EVER!) and met all MOSQ requirements. This was forwarded up the chain to our Two-star who immediately signed his approval and that was the end of that. Just FYI.