How do I approach disrespect towards a NCO?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Oct 2014 05:41:34 -0400

Being in the National Guard has its fair share of challenges. One major issue I have noticed is that often when an E-4 gets promoted to E-5 they are made a team leader in the same platoon or company that they have been in since day one. Often when this happens, they are made a first line leader (team leader) over people that they have been friends, and E-4 buddies with.

This is the current situation I am facing, one of our E-4s recently got promoted to E-5 during our deployment and took over as my ream leader. My other team member has been friends with this NCO for a couple of years and has continued his habit of the buddy-buddy relationship they had. This often leads to disrespect of our line leader during meetings and the like. I know my NCO sees the disrespect and is not comfortable with it, but often will let it go and not say anything. I do not know if this is because he is uncomfortable with his leadership, or if he is worried about his friendship. Though I suspect it may be both.

My question is what can I (as a lowly E4) do in this situation? I have spoken with my NCO and I know he knows the disrespect is there. I have also tried to speak to the SM about it, but he tends to get an attitude and pull TiS/TiG on me. Is there anything else I can do, or should I let this situation ride out and see where the chips land?

I respect my NCOs (always the rank, most often the person) and do want this taint or depreciate his view of being a NCO. I want him to be able to succeed in being an NCO, as I personally feel he will be a very good one, once he has a handle on how to lead as an NCO. Mind you, I am not an NCO, but I am older and have lived a very full life!

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Oct 28 at 2014 7:30 AM

1LT William Clardy — Tue, 28 Oct 2014 07:30:51 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member, the first (and possibly most important) step is to get formal and make a habit of talking the talk.

Military customs and courtesies exist for a reason, and that reason is to provide cuing which reinforces military structure.

To give one (bad) example I observed in theater, a young sergeant screaming "Shut the f*** up!" at a private is nothing more than a guy with stripes trying to outshout another guy with fewer stripes. Think about how that changes if, instead of screaming, the sergeant snaps a crisp "At ease, soldier!" A command relationship is established and the soldier is reminded that he is, indeed, a soldier being addressed by a sergeant.

You can help out your team leader by being formal when addressing him -- if you change his first name to "Sergeant", or even "Sarge", it will remind everybody at the table (including your team leader and his insubordinate associate) of his new rank. And this won't mean that he can't still be the butt of jokes, but the tone of those jokes will be subtly different when it's "Hey, Sarge, you should have seen yourself right after that round hit -- running full speed with rifle in hand and pants still ankle-high!" instead of "Hey, Rick, you..."

And if anybody hints that calling him by his new first name is just kissing up, suggest to them they think about what "military courtesy" means -- or you can refer them to this old black-boot Army guy who preaches and practiced this stuff.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Oct 28 at 2014 8:55 AM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Tue, 28 Oct 2014 08:55:19 -0400

Since you have mentioned this to both the new Sergeant and the E-4 "buddy" of his, to no avail, I would probably mention it to the platoon sergeant. The chain of command should move the E-4 or the Sergeant to different squads or platoons.

In addition, I believe the fault lies with the Sergeant. He is allowing the E-4 to disrespect his rank and should stop it, recognizing the impact on the "friendship". Being as this is a National Guard unit, that is probably more problematic than it would be for an active duty unit, due to the possible off-duty/non-military relationship they may have. (That is not meant to be a slam on the Guard. It is just that active troops are military 24 hours per day, even when not deployed, whereas, RC personnel "hang up their uniforms" when not at drill or deployed/training.)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2014 10:38 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Oct 2014 10:38:23 -0400

I have always maintained that, upon promotion from Specialist to Sergeant, that new NCO should be moved. Whether to a different squad, or a new company/battery/squadron/troop. It will make the transition into the leadership role a little more seamless, as there will not the issue like the one you mentioned in the original post.

However, this is not always possible. In my opinion, that new NCO needs to locate his manhood and start acting like an NCO. If not, the PSG should take his rank. If he doesn't want to be an NCO, then so be it. Whether it is National Guard, Reserve, or Active, make the transition now or you will never be taken seriously as a leader.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2014 10:40 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Oct 2014 10:40:28 -0400

That new NCO should have counseled his soldiers. This would have accomplished two goals. First, it would have defined the expectations of his soldiers. Next, it would have established his role as the leader and a Professional instead of being a buddy.

A weak or young leader may fall victim to a strong minded subordinate or the pressure from his peers. That has to be addressed in a counseling and followed up with if it appears again. This can only be effected by that leader.

I was a squad leader in the same platoon in which I am now the PL in. It was a mishap but my old platoon was the only one that needed a PL so I went there. I became the boss of my old boss. It was not ideal but roles were defined and expectations were put in place. It was not a smooth transition but it worked.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Oct 28 at 2014 11:08 AM

SGT Richard H. — Tue, 28 Oct 2014 11:08:18 -0400

This is one of the biggest challenges we face as a newly-minted NCO. If we are promoted and remain in the same squad or even platoon, we are pretty much on our own to figure out how to break those "buddy" ties without completely alienating those that we are now tasked to lead. Alienation of them isn't terribly productive either, but your NCO is going to have to do a gut check and get it done.
Military structure is there for a reason, and the ability of an NCO to take charge, and the ability of his subordinates to fall in line is more than just military bearing. You are deployed. In that case, a breakdown could mean the difference between life and death. I know that may seem extreme, but isn't the most extreme what we all do our best to prepare for? Your NCO needs to either fix it, or ask to be moved where he can get a fresh start. Unfortunately moving isn't always feasible, and being an NCO isn't always easy.
Bottom line: If he can't fix this, he may not have been ready to be an NCO.

Response by PO3 Anthony Farhner made Oct 28 at 2014 11:33 AM

PO3 Anthony Farhner — Tue, 28 Oct 2014 11:33:15 -0400

How about having a talk with the new NCO away from the rest of the unit and express your concerns to him and what you have observed. Ask him how he would like you to proceed towards your unit and let him know that he has your support. This would go along way in helping maintain unit cohesiveness and would also give him the opportunity to grow into his new role.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2014 11:34 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Oct 2014 11:34:39 -0400

Two things:
First, to address your question directly, the best thing you can do personally is the right thing. Show respect as you have, and emulate an example for others to follow. They all know they are wrong, but wrong becomes OK when there is a quorum of people who think it is funny/ join in/ stay silent. Publicly do the right thing and don't slip into the trap. Keep any discussions of respect and professionalism private.

Second, this is senior leader business. Your First Sergeant erred in not making an adjustment to at least a different squad. It may be he/she just hasn't taken a look at the roster post-deployment yet, but the adjustment is necessary for the development of all involved and will head off any favoritism perceptions that may arise.

One more thing. Your professional and mature view on the subject tells me a lot about your readiness to be an NCO yourself. Use this as a learning tool for when it is your turn.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2014 11:48 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Oct 2014 11:48:16 -0400

As a Specialist, this is often a difficult time because this is where you are being groomed for that next leadership position. Part of this time is where you evaluate yourself as a leader and where you want to be one day in developing your leadership style. There is no better time to learn now with this situation you described.

The old TIS/TIG argument, welcome to the E4 mafia. Let's clear up something, TIS/TIG only applies in determining promotion eligibility and when a team/squad ldr or platoon sergeant need to make a junior enlisted person in charge of some task. You must always keep in mind that just because someone has more time in grade doesn't make them a better leader nor does it mean that they know more than you. I've put some of my junior's in charge of a task, sometimes a PVT or a PFC, so I can evaluate them on how they handle stress, directions, confrontations, how they handle the responsibility and how they accomplish the task. So your buddy there can just stuff that TIS/TIG argument because it doesn't wash in regards to disrespecting an NCO.

This soldier sounds like he has a history of bordering on disrespect, not good....and you have every right to correct the guy. Their actions are detrimental to unit morale, the discipline of this organization, your platoon, squad, team. Their insubordinate behavior is incompatible with the Army Values along with a laundry list of other things, but you get the idea.

Your team leader needs to assert their authority and quick, it will get ugly if he doesn't. That other E4 needs to maintain their military bearing because this has gotten to a point where disrespect becomes an issue that must be dealt with both swiftly and tactfully. Keep in mind that your team ldr can also be counseled by his sqd ldr or plt sgt for allowing this to continue.

You stated that you are a bit older and with that perhaps some maturity that the other E4 hasn't quite demonstrated. You have learning opportunity here and it's not easy taking the hard right. You obviously want him to succeed, then you need to step up. So go to the sqd ldr or plt sgt, if you allow it to continue, you become part of the problem and this E4 joker may end up being a toxic leader one day.

Remember, leadership is not about a popularity contest. Colin Powell once said, “Trying to get everyone to like you is a sign of mediocrity. You’ll avoid the tough decisions, you’ll avoid confronting people who need to be confronted, and you’ll avoid offering different rewards based on different performance because some people might get upset.”

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2014 11:57 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Oct 2014 11:57:12 -0400

SPC Hammond, long ago in the Regimental system, when you were promoted to/in an NCO rank, you were moved to another platoon, company, or battalion. Similarly, with the exception of the necessary battlefield commission, new officers who rose from the ranks were also given new assignments. Even the battlefield commissions moved on to other units. The thinking was to avoid the type of familiarity you describe, giving everyone a clean slate. That was when local commanders had many more options about assignments than they do today for senior NCOS and Officers. Junior soldiers are another matter. Much can be done in that regard by the 1SG, CSM, Platoon Officer, Company Commander...effective leaders ponder such things, and also look for skill imbalance in a squad, platoon, etc. They also pay attention to low density skills/MOS (such as mine) as they often fall through the cracks in many areas.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2014 5:27 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Oct 2014 17:27:35 -0400

I dealt with this when I was promoted to SGT within the same unit I was a specialist. I stayed in the same Platoon and was a team leader of my friends, etc. I dealt with this easily because I maintained this position: If they are truly my friend they will respect my position and me and not disrespect me. If they do disrespect me, and don't stop after being told, then they aren't really my friend. This makes it even easier to separate myself from a buddy.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Oct 29 at 2014 9:25 AM

SSG Tim Everett — Wed, 29 Oct 2014 09:25:29 -0400

So we all know what the regs say, and what military customs and courtesies say. I have never served in a Guard or Reserve unit, although I've been around them. I don't honestly know what to tell you -- I want to give you good advice and feedback, but I'm not the kind of guy who thinks quoting regs is always the best answer. My approach has always been resolving things at the lowest level, with a nod to human understanding. And if that doesn't work, then bust out the big guns.

Familiarity breeds contempt, as the saying goes, but sometimes what choice do we have? In a Guard unit, it seems to me that you're dealing with a double-edged sword. As an example, you might be someone's employer on the civilian side, but that guy might be your squad leader when it's time to put on the uniform. So would that be an instance where spitting regs at a situation will make the issue go away? Maybe, maybe not -- what if said junior enlisted troop decided to hold it against you on the civilian side? Guard soldiers have two paychecks, remember.

I think a possible answer here, as I'm reading comments, is that the guy needs to lay it all on the line to his troops. Maybe even turn it around on them -- "Put yourself in my shoes for a second. We're buddies on the outside, then all of a sudden YOU get stripes. What would you say or do to me if I was bucking you, if I undermined your NCO authority or disrespected your rank/position? Would you laugh it off?"

If the unit Sergeant Major won't handle it, remember that you (or that NCO) has a chain of command. Two of them: an actual CoC and an NCO Support Chain. Someone needs to get squared away, in this case the NCO in question needs someone to help him/her sack up and the soldier(s) bucking this new NCO also need to be counseled, maybe with UCMJ attached.

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Oct 30 at 2014 9:31 AM

SGT Mark Sullivan — Thu, 30 Oct 2014 09:31:58 -0400

They are all adults, somewhere they have to draw the line. I was promoted to SGT on Active duty, and was put in charge of a shop normally filled by an SFC. I drew the line, I explained to my friends that, I am still the same person, but, because mission accomplishment is paramount, we have to draw the line. I can be fair or I can be an asshole, I'd rather be fair. They being adults understood, and respected how I felt. And lent credence to what I said, and gave me the respect

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2014 10:47 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:47:45 -0400

I just wanted to let everyone know that it seems the situation has been handled. I spoke with my NCO again and he said he had spoken with this SPC today and worked it out with him. I have watched them interact today, and it does seem to be handled as the SPC was showing the respect towards our NCO that he had been missing.

Thank you all for your insight into the situation and your responses. I am glad for the chance to be able to learn from all of you and this situation. I took notes from this situation and your responses so that I will be better able to handle the transition myself (hopefully it'll come!).

Response by 1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2014 4:32 PM

1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Oct 2014 16:32:33 -0400

I feel the National Guard has this issue because they never separate business from pleasure. On active duty I never had this issue with transition from lower enlisted to in NCO because there was a military common courtesy standard that was followed. ever since my first drill in the National Guard I complained about this time after time and the response from the upper echelon was "this is a more lay back friendly environment". so I guess they took that asNational Guard doesn't need to follow military standard. it all comes down to maturity, I have always had higher ranking friends personally but at work It's all professional. so if I was a specialist and my friend a staff sergeant, I need to come at ease when speaking to him in uniform unless otherwise directed.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2015 8:04 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Sep 2015 20:04:48 -0400

If you have already talked to the offender about it then this is completely on your NCO. Unfortunately there is such thing as weak NCOs and strong NCOs and this is where they first get weeded out. He is there to be a leader, not a friend. Making that first jump into a leadership position amongst your peers is hard. You must cut ties of friendship with your peers. If his friend actually respected him, he would offer the proper customs and courtesies demanded of his rank until he catches up through promotion to him. Honestly I think as soon as someone gets promoted into a higher leadership position that they should be moved to a new unit automatically to avoid these kinds of situations. Alas, this is not always feasible and we will always have situations like this.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2015 9:10 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Sep 2015 21:10:20 -0400

You can say something to that E4 you are both equal rank (SPC) if the SGT is looking for keep his friendship with this SPC and the disrespect he is digging himself into hole. Because other NCO'S especially the 1SG get a word around the camp fire about what is going on in your section, there is a FM 6-22 Army Leadership Chapter 2, 2-1 to 2-7 also DA PAM 350-58 Leader Development. As a NCO he should hold a meeting with the section and lay down the rules. Two: Counsel soldiers monthly, and when necessary and or corrective. Remember, when your in a leadership position, you have to maintain military discipline. Every soldier should know this, "BE,KNOW,DO"!