How do I break a Soldier's habit of lying?

2021-07-22T19:24:55-04:00

I have a SPC who keeps lying about little things(not shaving or things he has said). I have tried verbal counselings and written. He has written essays about integrity but still lies to me about anything. I've tried having a heart to heart seeing if something at home is bothering him and he says no. So I am wondering what else as his NCO can I do? What other corrective training that could help him?

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Jul 22 at 2021 8:15 PM

2021-07-22T20:15:17-04:00

That's a deep character flaw. I don't believe there's anything you can do to fix a pathological liar.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2021 8:22 PM

2021-07-22T20:22:27-04:00

That's a tough issue to deal with. The best you can do is continue to counsel and recommend punishment based on his habitual failure to meet certain tasks and expectations. Lying in and of itself if caught purposefully doing so can also be playing with False Official Statement and his continued actions are risking an Article 15. If he wants to stay a SPC he needs to reconsider his habit.

Response by SGT Jeremy Harrington made Jul 22 at 2021 8:25 PM

2021-07-22T20:25:58-04:00

Therapy. He may have grown up in an environment where he had to lie to avoid punishments that didn’t fit his “crime”. There’s a reason why they’re lying.

Response by Cpl Vic Burk made Jul 22 at 2021 8:34 PM

2021-07-22T20:34:29-04:00

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member Habitual liars are very difficult to break from their constant lying. My guess is this SPC has lied continuously his whole life, maybe for attention seeking, a way to fit in or whatever other reason. Most likely you are not going to change him. The constant lying is a way of life and at this point he may not even realize what a fool he is making of himself because I am pretty sure you are not the only one who knows everything that comes out of his mouth is a lie. Maybe (probably not though) you could get him to go seek psychiatric help.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2021 8:40 PM

2021-07-22T20:40:33-04:00

Burpees.... followed by more burpees....

But seriously, your not gonna fix him. Most likely he needs to talk with someone about why he feels the need to lie, even when it is not needed. Not that it is ever needed, but they feel it is justified for some reason...

But when thay fails....burpees

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jul 22 at 2021 8:57 PM

2021-07-22T20:57:29-04:00

After what you have tried, id take the last step.
Print and present the stuff below.

Sit the SM down and counsel. Each lie will generate a negative counseling session and recommendation for UCMJ, once sufficient evidence is accumulated a request for involuntary separation under AR 635-200 chapter 14 will be made to the commander.

Change as of NOW, or start planning for your separation.

SEPARATION FOR MISCONDUCT, CHAPTER 14, AR 635-200
Note: This handout only provides basic information and is not intended to serve
as a substitute for a personal consultation with an attorney.
BASIS FOR THIS CHAPTER
a. This discharge may be given to a Soldier upon the following:
(1) The Soldier's conduct exhibits a pattern of minor military disciplinary
infractions; or
(2) The Soldier's conduct exhibits a pattern of discreditable involvement
with civilian authorities or a pattern of conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline
(paragraph 14-12b); or
(3) The Soldier commits a single act of "serious misconduct" (paragraph
14-12c) "serious misconduct" is an offense that could be punished by a punitive
discharge under the UCMJ.
WHAT MUST THE COMMANDER DO BEFORE THEY CAN INITIATE A CHAPTER
14?
a. Only for discharge under paragraphs 14-12a and 14-12b, the Soldier must be
formally counseled in writing at least once prior to initiation of the chapter action. The
counseling must include the fact that separation action may be initiated if the behavior
continues, the type of discharge that could result from the possible separation action
and the effect of each. The Soldier is given a reasonable time to correct his deficiencies
(Para 1-18b, AR 635-200).
b. Again, only for discharge under paragraphs 14-12a and 14-12b, the Soldier
must be transferred once with at least two months of duty in each unit, between
battalion size or larger units. The separation authority can waive this transfer
requirement if further duty by the Soldier would cause disciplinary problems or if the
member is resisting rehabilitative efforts.
c. Discharge under paragraph 14-12c does not require the above rehabilitation
and counseling.
2
d. The Soldier must be given a proper medical examination and mental status
evaluation.
PROCEDURE
The unit commander forwards the chapter packet containing all relevant matters,
including any statements from you and documents you submitted, to the Battalion
Commander, who makes his recommendation and forwards it to the Brigade
Commander who makes the final decision as to whether you should be separated and
the type of discharge you should receive. All records of this separation action, including
the reason for separation, are confidential by operation of Federal Law. The only thing,
which will be known by prospective employers, etc. is the type of discharge that you
received (i.e., Honorable, etc.).

WHAT ARE YOUR RIGHTS?
a. You have a right to consult with an attorney within a reasonable time (not less
than three duty days) or civilian counsel at your own expense (your command should
make a TDS appointment for you).
b. You have the right to submit statements in your own behalf (these statements
may be made by you or by others on your behalf).
c. You have the right to obtain copies of documents that your commander will
forward in support of the separation recommendation.
d. You can waive the above rights in writing. Failure to respond (that means not
signing the form) within seven duty days from the date you see an attorney means you
give up all of your rights; and
e. You have the right to an administrative discharge board if you are considered
for discharge with an Under Other Than Honorable Conditions (UOTH) characterization
of service or if you have six (6) or more years of service of total active and reserve
service on the date of initiation of recommendation for separation.

TYPE OF DISCHARGE
Soldiers separated under this program will generally be given either a general under
honorable conditions or an under other than honorable conditions discharge (Para. 3-7,
AR 635-200). They may also, but rarely, receive an Honorable discharge.
a. HONORABLE: This is a separation with honor. An honorable discharge will
be given for proper military behavior and proficient performance of duty. If the Soldier
has served faithfully and performed to the best of his ability, and there is no derogatory
information in his military record, he should receive an honorable discharge. If there are
3 infractions of discipline, the seriousness and frequency will be evaluated. When there is a doubt, it should be resolved in favor of an honorable discharge.
b. GENERAL: This is a discharge under honorable conditions, Soldier whose
record and performance is satisfactory. This is usually given to someone who had nonjudicial punishments (Article 15s), but not for serious infractions. When this type of
discharge is given, the commander must state the specific basis for it.
c. UNDER OTHER THAN HONORABLE CONDITIONS: This is a discharge
issue ordinarily for misconduct, fraudulent entry, security reasons, or for the good of the service. This discharge carries a considerable stigma and deprives the Soldier of
substantially all veteran’s benefits accrued during the enlistment period.

And print excerpts from, Army Regulation 635–200 chapter 14

Response by SFC Marc W. made Jul 22 at 2021 9:25 PM

2021-07-22T21:25:28-04:00

You've got a good amount of answers here, and if I'd like to provide a slightly different approach.
My wife does behavioral analysis for a living and I constantly consulted with her on how to guide and shape soldiers behavior when I was in, and now I do it with employees under me.
From the NCO perspective, you put it on paper and directly addressed, good. Now another aspect you could add is to reinforce when he tells the truth. So when something comes along that he does tell the truth about, point it out and directly address it with him on the side, 'hey SPC Snuffy, thanks for telling me the truth, it helps me to trust you'. Definitely continue to address it when he does lie, but reinforce when he doesn't. Just like you would do with a child, that's how you mold the behavior into something you want.

I know Army leadership often wants to be all stick and no carrot, but when the wheel of failure keeps going around we need a new perspective.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2021 9:47 PM

2021-07-22T21:47:04-04:00

Speak with your command team about starting the separation paperwork, or at a bare minimum recommend the Soldier to your Command Team for a Command referral to Behavioral Health. Lying is very dangerous, and above all very disrespectful.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2021 12:12 AM

2021-07-23T00:12:07-04:00

He may be reluctant to talk to an authority figure about issues and tells lies to cover his inability. I recommend having a talk with your local UMT. The Chaplain can advise you further and may likely want to offer services to your Soldier.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2021 5:17 AM

2021-07-23T05:17:07-04:00

Bar to Continued Service, either they fix themselves or they're gone.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 23 at 2021 5:37 AM

2021-07-23T05:37:19-04:00

You cannot do this alone. You need to encourage the Soldier to seek professional help. Speak with your command Team first, ensure they are on board, as mentioned by other this is likely a lifetime habit.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Jul 23 at 2021 9:35 AM

2021-07-23T09:35:00-04:00

I'll echo what several others have stated, in that there's probably little you can do to "fix" a habitual liar. It's part & parcel of who they are and what they do. When you catch them, call them on it (frankly, I have no problem letting them know their word is never trusted), collectively train them for the action that is the source of the lie as you would any other soldier for their actions, and build a paper trail on them.

You are not a psychiatrist, so don't put the responsibility on yourself to "fix" them, because you can't; especially if they aren't trying to fix themselves.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2021 9:41 AM

2021-07-23T09:41:05-04:00

You don't break it, per se. Either the SM breaks the habit or the Commander chapters them out for misconduct.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Jul 23 at 2021 2:19 PM

2021-07-23T14:19:29-04:00

You go to your NCOIC? Then shit details to embarrass him, let him spend days picking up trash and such, after he’s laughed at and cat called he might stop. Because you can’t smoke anymore anymore. But certainly he’s be outed as a guy you can’t trust. Peer pressure at a young age can be a tremendous motivator, odds are he’d be challenged.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2021 4:16 PM

2021-07-23T16:16:39-04:00

Take all the counseling statements and build a packet to recommend him for reduction in rank. This is not only the next admin step, but also the next logical step.
I know that sounds harsh, and a lot of NCOs that is the part of the job they dont like, but it is PART of your job. If you fail to do that part, he will eventually become an E-5 liar.
The step after reduction would be bar from re-enlistment and kicking him out. If thats what it takes, it is what you must do.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Jul 23 at 2021 5:06 PM

2021-07-23T17:06:52-04:00

I would try assuming the opposite of whatever this Soldier said is true whenever it can be done safely as a teaching tool. (This has to be done carefully. In today's Army you aren't allowed to do anything that would even RESEMBLE embarassing the Soldier.)

But find ways to show that you absolutely cannot take that Soldier's word as true, and that you will automatically assume the opposite, unless and until the Soldier proves capable of telling the truth.

Things like "Did you PMCS?" "Yes, SGT." "Oh, well since you haven't done a PMCS yet, you need to go do one." "But I said yes!" "I know, but I have to assume you are lying."

Again... You have to be VERY careful not to embarrass the Soldier. But if you can pull it off, it MIGHT show the Soldier, in a very real way, what the problem with not being trustworthy is.

Response by SGT Chris Stephens made Jul 23 at 2021 5:28 PM

2021-07-23T17:28:04-04:00

So, I dealt with this years ago when I was a PFC. I was the pathological liar that almost got kicked out. Deep down, it's what I call self-sabotage. You're used to failing and messing up and you're just trying to avoid getting yelled at and getting into trouble. I remember I messed up more when I felt like the focus was on me. There was a two-month period where I remember my SGT actually focusing on another soldier, and while he continually screwed up, I didn't because I didn't have the focus on me. Once he left our section, the focus went back on me and I was back to screwing up. Unfortunately, no amount of counseling statements, extra duty or whatever else really helped. What we finally figured out was that it was actually because I was stationed about 2 hours from my hometown. Because of that, I never truly grew up because I still able to depend on my parents for things. Not helping the fact that my full family was falling apart because of divorce, surprise pregnancies and so much more. Once this was figured out, my SGT actually contacted branch and asked to get me transferred far away from home because that was the issue. Branch sent me to South Korea and I grew up very quick and actually became a model soldier.

Response by SSG Hank Ortega made Jul 23 at 2021 5:40 PM

2021-07-23T17:40:50-04:00

Some people will lie even when the truth makes a better story. It's pathological. This specialist is ready for 1. disciplinary action, based on the severity of his lies (extra duty, Art 15), and 2. referral to mental health counseling.
Consider that if you are in an MOS where people's lives are in your hands (are there any that arent?), his lies will put people in jeopardy. Document everything.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 23 at 2021 8:04 PM

2021-07-23T20:04:10-04:00

Have him give a class on ethics. Check this out: https://www.bileckilawgroup.com/court-martial-defense/articles-of-the-ucmj/article-131-perjury/

UCMJ Article 131: Perjury | Bilecki Law Group

If you are charged with perjury under Article 131 of the UCMJ, Bilecki Law Group, PLLC will focus on helping defend military members against the government.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Jul 25 at 2021 8:05 PM

2021-07-25T20:05:53-04:00

From a Skipper's perspective, remember we make business decisions when it comes to administrative issues. From that angle, once it's determined that carrying the load is not worth it, then dump BUT remember the end game. All the intangibles like morale improve as well. Regarding what winds up on the DD-214, the important thing is ensuring there is a paperwork trail that supports a RE Code that helps the Service in not revisiting the problem child down the road. Just make sure the process is done right. Appeal Boards look at process, not the subjectivity of the decision. I've made suitable articulation in the reasoning and all a Board could do later on was say the process was followed. The other thing is you're not doing it alone. The Division Officer, Department Head, 1-Shop, JAG, SEL, XO, and I conclude it's the best thing to do. Only I have the Electoral Vote that counts. We may have you do a few hoops to nail down some interim punishments to go as far as "Good of the Service" with a RE-4. Other CoCs with less stamina or cajones will do an early Honorable/General toss. Find out where your CoC sits. Ultimately you'll go with that flow, good, bad, or indifferent. Problem CoCs create future problems and the taxpayer is stuck with their ineptitudes.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2021 1:09 PM

2021-08-24T13:09:59-04:00

Smother them with honesty and paper.