How do I navigate through a situation regarding a soldier of mine who always misses work, and has been enabled to do so by a more senior NCO?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Nov 2021 21:43:17 -0500

I’m a SGT (soon to be SSG) and I need guidance on this, as it is the first time I’m dealing with this. The only reason I am reaching outside of my chain of command is because I feel like I have not gotten the support that I need from them on this issue. I’m currently responsible for the care and wellbeing of 3 soldiers: a CPL, SPC and a PFC. Currently, the SPC has been a challenge. Since joining our section, she has given a huge amount of issues or reasons to not be at work. She has rarely been at work. And I mean rarely. She never did PT with us either. This last month or so I’ve only seen her a handful of times, if that. And it’s always the same reasons or excuses every time: She has car issues, her son can’t go into daycare, her son has to be taken out of daycare, her husband can’t watch her son so she has to because they won’t accept him at daycare, she has appointments, her husbands car doesn’t work so she has to drive him, or he has to use her car, she has to take her son to the emergency room, her husband to the emergency room, her son, her husband, her car, and it repeats itself. It has gotten worse since she recently became pregnant. She wasn’t attending P3T. The whole time I was trying to do what an NCO should do: see if she needs help, recommend solutions, ask for appointment slips, provide guidance etc. I found out that my NCO (a SSG) has been enabling her to miss work, without question. And she has been going directly to him without informing me of anything because she knows that he will let her “handle what she needs to” without question. I had a talk about it with him multiple times. Nothing changed. I talked to two SFCs, and a MSG. Nothing has changed. Since my NCO has been on leave, and the rest of us in class for a month, she was told to “lay low” while we are in class. That’s not the right answer. I had a talk with him about it again and he acted like he was on my side. It isn’t fair to my other soldiers or anyone that she is getting away with missing work so often. And it has gotten to the point where my PFC asked if she PCS’d or something. It’s ridiculous. I have been asking her for appointment slips and profiles and i’ve counseled her twice for not being to work on time. And she pulls the “SSG told me” move. So what do I do or what can I do? Step on my leaderships toes? Go to my 1SG (who is on leave I believe)? SGM?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2021 10:02 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Nov 2021 22:02:12 -0500

SGT Private RallyPoint Member I think MSgt Robert "Rock" Aldi gave you excellent advice.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2021 10:07 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Nov 2021 22:07:50 -0500

Something is REALLY off, here...
First, do NOT mention taking family to the ER, unless you find it to be false. The other absences should speak for themselves, and you possibly violate regs and federal law.
Second, find out WTF is really going on. That many NCOs covering for someone is most likely either something improper, or something that is a massive medical issue for the family.
Talk to your SSG and see why they are allowing her to go directly to them.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2021 10:26 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Nov 2021 22:26:10 -0500

Line up your ducks to make your life easier.

I had a soldier pull the "cancer card" on me while I was a commander, and well, I let a few battle assembly absences go by without medical documentation. I eventually got a doctor's appointment copy, but not confirmation of her condition, nor confirmation of appointment attendance.

Anyway......... this went on and on, and finally the excused absences I have to work within my authority had run out. So I started the counseling and documentation process to negative administrative action against the solider. Then POOF they put in for Retired Reserves.

I was being gamed.

Other problem soldiers I also started separation packets on and my life was made easier, or they shaped up when the notifications came certified mail.

Soldiers, and people in general will take advantage of the system and you who you think you are trying to help out or do right by them.

I'm of the opinion that the system of the Army/Military itself gives more than enough do-overs or extra help to service members that we as leaders in the chain of command do not need to give them more at the cost of us risking our own skin.

It was my job as a Company Commander to set up the administrative process to separate soldiers so my Battalion Commander could dot his i's and cross his t's so it could be sent up to the final authority of the CG.

I wanted to be in a position to tell my boss when I'm put on the spot about a failing soldier what I've done about it, and in worst cases I can tell them, "well sir, pass up the packet to the CG and this problem will be removed from the denominator.

It's all about the readiness ratio.

[ total soldiers - bad soldiers ] / [ total soldiers ] = readiness ratio

Get rid of all the bad soldiers and the ratio by itself without any improvement to performance will get to 100%.

At the very least, you need to be in a position to say to your chain of command you have counseled the soldier and did everything in your means to correct the action. Now, with continued inaction, based on your efforts your 1SG and CO can start the chaptering process. Otherwise, you are doing them a disservice because the system will continue to string them along until all the proper steps are taken to correct the action.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 7 at 2021 11:13 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 07 Nov 2021 23:13:45 -0500

Who is above you? That is who you should go to. Do not go to the SGM. You might get fried for doing that.

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Nov 8 at 2021 12:04 AM

SMSgt Bob Wilson — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 00:04:49 -0500

This is simple. DOCUMENT! DOCUMENT!! DOCUMENT!!! Build a package. Counsel in writing the SPC. Have the SPC sign it; if she refuses, fine; have someone to witness her refusal [and sign they witnessed the refusal]. Your keep a copy and send the original to the CO requesting action. It should take about 4-6 months before the CO gets fed up and initiates separation papers. A person this bad should NOT get a good or average performance report. People with these issues, usually are well known by the Chain of Command. Why? Bad checks, missed appointments, issues with the local authorities, and alcohol issues.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2021 12:43 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 00:43:41 -0500

I hope you have everything documented in counseling forms. Because you take all this information and you run it up to the Commander and recommend UCMJ for malingering. If you don't have all this already documented, then get it documented.

Response by SSG Brian L. made Nov 8 at 2021 6:54 AM

SSG Brian L. — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 06:54:39 -0500

A SSG doesn't have the authority to allow her to steal a paycheck from the government. He does not have the authority to excuse her in that manner. I have a hard time imagining a child care plan is there or being followed. Go to the CSM if 1SG isn't available. Use the CMDR open door policy. This seems to also be a form of sexism.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Nov 8 at 2021 8:33 AM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 08:33:13 -0500

You need to focus on the things you can change and not stress about what you can't.

What you can help with is to improve the loose threads. Speak to your first line leader and get a greenlight so you are protected if anyone calls BS on you. Just do a review of POV's, family care plans and things like that and help them get any issues addressed. A proactive approach will help plug any holes and will reduce future issues. You can also review physical fitness and help make a plan for that but just walk lightly if she is pregnant because there will be limitations to what you can do there. You can always speak to the SSgt and build an approach so you have a way forward.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2021 8:42 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 08:42:30 -0500

Yes. Go to 1SG. Also go to your first level officer and maybe even your CO as well. The NCO support channel is good to use but we do have officers as well. It does sound like its time to involve them.
Your SSG may be spineless or have some sort of relationship with the SPC that is contrary to Army values: this doesnt mean they are sleeping together, but showing favoritism to a Soldier also contrary to Army values.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2021 8:48 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 08:48:27 -0500

SGT Perchez, what you are dealing with is the challenges of leadership. This Soldier has been allowed to get away with this type of behavior and now you are trying to correct it. First thing, you NCOs have to get on the same sheet. So I would suggest you start there. Sit down with the NCOs involved and set the standards on how all the Soldiers in the section will be treated. Each situation that the Soldiers present to you must be addressed using the standards that you all come up with. Understand you have to use your best judgment. Secondly, you NCOs need to establish a clear line of reporting. Your Soldiers should be coming to you before they go to your supervisor or another NCO on the Team.

As for the Soldier personal life, she still has to meet the standards. Sometimes she may have to deal with life situations that cause her to be late for work, but you should hear about that before you have accounted her as been late for duty.

This is can be taken care of easily if you NCOs set clear and precise standards. If you try and you are not heard you may have to take it to the 1SG for his/her support. Hopefully you can handle this at the lowest level without involving upper leadership.

Lastly, remember if anything negative happens that involves your Soldiers, you are the one that has to answer to your leadership. Keep up the great work and enforce the standards.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2021 9:14 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 09:14:35 -0500

Ok, Since I haven’t exactly seen a “good” answer yet, I’ll go:
1) counsel her stating verbatim “you will provide a record for all appointments NLT 48hrs prior to the appointment. Failure to do so will result in further counseling and at the second instance, punitive action will be taken”
2) if your child has to be taken out of daycare, you will get a note signed by a daycare official stating the reason and a contact number for that individual. Failure to do so will result in further counseling to include but not limited to lying to a non-commissioned officer.
3) if car issues are preventing you from getting to work, you will contact me and I will come get you. Any unexcused absence due to car issues will result in a failure to be at your appointed place of duty counseling.
4) inform her that the commander and 1SG do have the ability to call the ER and get a record of each time she was there and inform her that if any of the times she was “at the er” but isn’t on the record will result in lying to a NCO counseling.
5) if she is in fact pregnant, it should reflect on a profile, so ask to see it and begin the P3T program enrollment counseling and get her enrolled before she tries to pull the “my unit wouldn’t let me go to P3T” excuse.
6) it takes 2 counselings to begin UCMJ and everything above is likely what the 1SG and CSM would say.
7) reinforce to her that you are in fact her first line supervisor and you will go to me before going to the SSG. If she jumps the chain again, you counsel her, simple as that.

In about 2 weeks, she will have either changed, or you will have a UCMJ packet and in about a month, a separation packet.

Source: I had a soldier doing the same thing. Soldier is no longer in the Army

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2021 9:55 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 09:55:12 -0500

Document. Document. Document. Put it together then up the CoC you go.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2021 1:00 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 13:00:41 -0500

If you have already taken this up with your first line supervisor, PSG/NCOIC and they aren't doing anything about it - go to the 1SG. And then keep going up until you get help.

She definitely needs counseled for not going to P3T - and she needs to work on finding better childcare or assistance if her husband can't help out. I'm a single parent - and I rarely miss work. My daughter has had serious medical issues too. Thankfully, even being immunosuppressed, she hasn't been sick much during covid. But there's no excuse for her to be missing so much work and for the other NCOs to let her get away with it.

You seem to be doing the right thing - it's the other NCOs failing. If she can't get her life together, maybe the Army isn't for her.

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Nov 8 at 2021 5:11 PM

SSG Bill McCoy — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 17:11:17 -0500

That's a tough one. I'm NOT saying it's justified in ANY way how your more senior NCO deals with her; but ... it may be that he's afraid of being accused of something or other. I've known NCO's like that. I had on on the opposite extreme ... the guy was laying for one of my soldiers, a WAC as they were called back in the day. Either way, it's not a good position to be put in.
I would simply document every discussion with either one of them. With her, have a witness present, ALWAYS; especially when counselling or questioning her. (Same with any subordinate who's a problem by the way.)
How does the unit handle OTHER miscreants ... that should be a telling guide on how you might approach the issues with the SSG and her. Again, if you havent' already been done so, document everything, BEFORE you jump up the chain. It would also be a telling point for you in regard to the counselling statements you've already done with her. What has happened to them. I used to copy my Plt Sgt AND Plt Ldr on any formal counselling.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Nov 8 at 2021 6:05 PM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 18:05:29 -0500

I think the best answer came from SSG Private RallyPoint Member and SSG Private RallyPoint Member
I had a similar situation. First, do what we used to call a "Magic Bullet Counseling" which basically means that you counsel the Soldier that her performance is not to standard and that failure to correct these issues will result in punitive actions.
This deal with her kid and daycare and her husband and the car is total B.S. Those two situations need to be counseled as a condition that may lead to a Family Hardship Discharge. Remember, the Army did not issue her a family, and it is a requirement of Army Regulations that you have a plan and system in place to take care of dependents.
Your direct first line supervisor is damaging your section. Those other hard working Soldiers deserve to know why they are having to carry someone else's gear every day. Those miles walked carrying someone else's load are always harder and longer than they need to be.

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Nov 9 at 2021 2:17 PM

Cpl Christopher Bishop — Tue, 09 Nov 2021 14:17:53 -0500

Paper trail leasing to discharge. These people are supposed to actually have some SERVICE in their souls, and not just join for the “whats in it for them”.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 11 at 2021 3:50 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Nov 2021 03:50:32 -0500

I would suggest counseling statement(s) and written record of who, what, when, where but if you don’t counsel your Soldiers for good and bad, you’ll have hard time later justifying disciplinary actions, awards or promotion potential. First sit down and come up with a statement of the good or bad actions, the military offense covering it, come up with a game plan of how the issues will be corrected then facilitate the Soldier to self correct by determining a logical and appropriate decision. If your Plt Sgt is letting it go without justification, one on one ask politely why. Counseling isn’t just for negative assessments. If want a Soldier to obey the rules, you have to let him in on the rules by counseling upon assignment then, make monthly or quarterly counseling assessments to kind of correct or applaud the Soldier’s good and/or bad issues and allow them to, with your helpful insight, determine their correct course of action or give them directed actions as needed. The more a Soldier knows at the beginning, the better they will be in the end. You can’t accidentally step on a landline if you know where it is. (With a few exceptions)

Response by Sgt Kerry Thurlow made Dec 14 at 2021 12:09 PM

Sgt Kerry Thurlow — Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:09:52 -0500

You document everything...when you have documented that, you keep documenting. Hand carry all paperwork to the orderly room yourself, so it doesn't get lost.

Also, I would encourage you to have a witness to your counseling sessions. The SPC may well cry harassment or other impropriety.

Response by SPC Michael Moore made Jan 25 at 2022 5:17 PM

SPC Michael Moore — Tue, 25 Jan 2022 17:17:18 -0500

Counseling statement and document, after that take it to the Senior NCO and if still nothing go to the 1SG/SGM with all documentation with dates times and even when the SSG gives her the ok

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jan 26 at 2022 1:56 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:56:46 -0500

Senior NCO and soldier different sexes?

Response by SPC Daniel Rankin made Jan 31 at 2022 12:46 AM

SPC Daniel Rankin — Mon, 31 Jan 2022 00:46:02 -0500

Since you have talked to your nco, you have the right to council her and take it directly to the commander and have him deal with it. That will perk up the ears and she will no longer have the right to miss her assigned positions. I know this because it happened in my unit and this person ended up getting a discharge other then honorable. Let her know that this could happen to her if it does not cease and desist.