How do Senior Leaders condone LBGT events such as Pride month? What happened to good order and discipline?

1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 07:29:26 -0400

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2016 7:31 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 07:31:50 -0400

1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member Not sure I see why celebrating a particular month or the history associated with it have to do with good order and discipline

Response by Sgt Chris Lima made Jun 29 at 2016 7:32 AM

Sgt Chris Lima — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 07:32:53 -0400

Is that two separate questions? I'm not sure how they're related...

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2016 7:35 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 07:35:07 -0400

I think I'm missing your point on this? LGBTQ is not considered illegal, immoral, or unethical in the general American society (especially after the SCOTUS decision on marriage and the presidnt's endorsement of LGBT civil rights). As of now, the Pride month is considered the same as African American history month or Women's History Month.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Jun 29 at 2016 7:39 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 07:39:35 -0400

Way I see it, what the personnel do on their time is their business, as long as it's not affecting their performance on the job.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2016 8:09 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 08:09:38 -0400

Well personally, I say can all of these pride months. They mean nothing to the majority and accomplishes absolutely nothing. Just a politically correct cater to hurt feelings. The military is about killing people and the majority of service members I disagree with on moral issues like drunkeness, homosexuality, and even sexual relations outside of marriage outside of man and woman. However, our purpose is to kill or aid in the killing of our enemy. The military says as long as your hobby or lifestyle doesn't affect your performance or he effectiveness of your unit, you're fine. I think we waste too much time and money on these stupid politically driven events like this racial ethnicity pride month.

Response by SGT David T. made Jun 29 at 2016 8:16 AM

SGT David T. — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 08:16:13 -0400

Society has changed and the military is a reflection of the society in which it serves. With the repeal of DADT and the SCOTUS decision, this is no longer against the rules. So how exactly does this affect good order and discipline?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2016 8:18 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 08:18:59 -0400

If you are asking why condone LBGT, you have missed the boat by a few years.

If you are asking how to enforce good order and discipline in the ranks when it comes to LBGT personnel then just ignore orientation (and now gender) and focus on performance and personal character.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2016 8:40 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 08:40:57 -0400

1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member Just curious. What do you celebrate that someone else think you should not. Do they then have a reason to ask your question?

Response by CPT John Sheridan made Jun 29 at 2016 8:57 AM

CPT John Sheridan — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 08:57:47 -0400

Well June is also National Accordian Awareness Month. How can military leaders condone this? Next thing you know accordion players everywhere will be asking to celebrate. How can leaders maintain good order and discipline if everyone wants to play an accordion?

June is National Fresh Fruit and Vegetables Month, National Candy Month, National Country Cooking Month, National Dairy Month, National Iced Tea Month, National Papaya Month, National Soul Food Month, and National Turkey Lovers Month. How can there be reasonable expectation for commands to operate mess halls with all of these demands. It could cause a collapse of the Class I supply system.

June is National Adopt a Cat Month. OMG! How does this work? Do we need to ban cat lovers from serving or people with cat allergies? Set aside the moral inferiority of those who would love cats and simply look at the practical issues. If we allow this to go on, soldiers will want to smuggle their pussy into the barracks.

June is National Camping Month... err... Well, that sort of works.

(My apologies. The opportunity for satire was too tempting too avoid)

Response by SGT Tracey "Tra" Cooper-Harris made Jun 29 at 2016 9:03 AM

SGT Tracey "Tra" Cooper-Harris — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:03:38 -0400

How do they condone it? The same way the command condones Women’s History Month, Black History Month, Asian/Pacific Isländer Heritage Month, Native American History Month.... etc, etc.

It adds to good order and discipline. But I feel you aren't in agreement with my sentiment.

All of the groups I mentioned were restricted from the type of service they could do in the military, or marginalized in some way. It's good that we look at the character of the individual instead of appearance/behavior that are different from our own.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Jun 29 at 2016 9:05 AM

MSgt Michael Smith — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:05:19 -0400

What does LBGT events such as pride month have to do with good order and discipline?

Response by CPT John Sheridan made Jun 29 at 2016 9:18 AM

CPT John Sheridan — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:18:50 -0400

In all seriousness, DoD recognition of Pride Month is a matter of good order & discipline. With a long history of institutional prohibitions against LGBT people and a long history of societal attitudes detrimental to them, the military is faced with a problem to solve. Societal attitudes have rapidly changed and the military has to adapt to those changes.

It's not that long ago that gays in the military were considered roughly equivalent to IV drug users due to AIDS. Worse yet, if an IV drug user self identified, they were provided counseling and treatment. A gay soldier was simply fired without consideration of his performance.

Most of the senior leadership of the Army were in leadership roles during those times and participated in enforcing legal sanctions against LGBT soldiers. General attitudes toward LGBT soldiers ranged from benign contempt to violent. The law now prohibits that. For that reason, the leadership must openly endorse these changes and accept LGBT soldiers. If they cannot, they should retire.

So, it is a matter of good order and discipline that the senior leadership condone it. That is what leadership is. Anyone who cannot, without reservation, treat all of their soldiers professionally and with respect have no business leading soldiers.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2016 9:30 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:30:46 -0400

OK leaving out all the moralistic arguments, there is still the legal angle that needs to be addressed.

Particularly, issues regarding equality in barracks, bathrooms, showers, etc. For example, if two gay males or females can occupy the same barracks room because they are the same gender, why can't straight males and females have co-ed barracks rooms? Then there's the same bathroom issue as the civilian world has been arguing over. Can gay/trans people use whatever bathroom facilities they want while straight people are restricted to their gender? Showers: who showers in which shower? Can a gay/trans person shower in whatever shower they want, while straights are restricted? These are all questions that can and will bring legal issues to the Military. Let the IG complaints begin!

None of this has been addressed, and not only do we have gays in the Military, females in combat units, and now on the 1st, we will have LGBT people in the Military. I am not passing judgment either way; just pointing out that these issues will become questions that need to be answered.

Response by MSgt John McGowan made Jun 29 at 2016 9:32 AM

MSgt John McGowan — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:32:47 -0400

1LT. The only month we used to have was United Way month

Response by 1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2016 9:33 AM

1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:33:55 -0400

To understand why I asked this question, my last year of service there was an LBGT pride event where a MAJ that worked at the hospital in uniform spoke and made PDAs with her partner - a senior NCO. Now call me crazy, but their relationship could not have predated their enlistment or commissioning. This is a clear example, and yes there are plenty in heterosexual relationships I have seen as well, where good order and discipline and fraternization policies have been violated. This current PC and progressive agenda politics being shoved down the military service members throats is a slippery slope to where, soon enough, everything is relative and morality is negotiable.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2016 9:52 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:52:57 -0400

1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member , I am the Detachment Sergeant for my unit. I have a Soldier in my unit that is gay. His orientation does not affect his work nor the unit in any way negative. He is one of my best Soldiers. As long as he is not in any of his Army uniforms when attending Prides, then I'm good.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2016 9:56 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:56:19 -0400

Just one last thought. Was it good order and discipline when we called these folks names, assaulted them and made sure they were discharged quickly?

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2016 10:01 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 10:01:09 -0400

LT, look what you started lol

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jun 29 at 2016 10:11 AM

LTC Paul Labrador — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 10:11:30 -0400

Now that DADT and the banning of homosexuals has been repealed, I see events as Pride Month no different than African American or Asian-Pacific Islander month. As long as participation isn't forced or doesn't interfere with business, who cares.....?

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Jun 29 at 2016 10:43 AM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 10:43:00 -0400

LGBT is just another social, culture group that makes America Great, I have no more problem with this than I did helping Capt Margie Turner with Black History Month. Good Order and Discipline? Your definition of Good Order and Discipline is a whole lot different than mine.

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made Jun 29 at 2016 10:43 AM

LCpl Cody Collins — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 10:43:27 -0400

Political Correctness takes priority over Good Order and discipline and Combat Readiness. We as a Nation has list our way Big Time. Our Military should be Concentrating on how to defeat Putin and China, not spend time and resources on whose Gay and what not. I've been sharing these questions and Conversation 's with my Co-workers most of whom are Vietnam Veterans. They can't believe some of the comments coming from our men and women in Uniform. And the defense of the LGBT question on Mayberry. We all agree on one thing, all of you are not Mentally ready to fight, much less a war or surprise attack.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Jun 29 at 2016 11:25 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 11:25:33 -0400

If you have been around RP for a while, you should know this is a subject that will be responded with vitriol, rather than rational discussions. You should be more clear as to who you refer to as senior leaders, military or civilian. In the military, as you are well aware, we follow orders and as long as none is disobeyed, these events off base are legitimate, as long as they are in mufti.

Response by TSgt Kenneth Ellis made Jun 29 at 2016 11:46 AM

TSgt Kenneth Ellis — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 11:46:34 -0400

This is what the military is coming too. The parade won't be like the ones in San Francisco. It is a celebration of there life style.

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made Jun 29 at 2016 1:15 PM

MSgt Wayne Morris — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 13:15:45 -0400

Those who don't have their "Pride" month or even week should file a complaint with the IG for discrimination. If you need a special month or week to feel proud then you need to do some work on your self esteem anyway.

Response by SGT Brian Wall made Jun 29 at 2016 1:35 PM

SGT Brian Wall — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 13:35:27 -0400

Here's my take on it. If you participate do not do it in uniform if you do automatic article 15. If you don't approve of it that's fine but leave them alone.

Response by SGT Tony Clifford made Jun 29 at 2016 2:02 PM

SGT Tony Clifford — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 14:02:58 -0400

I'm not sure I follow you. I've never seen any kind of heritage month actually hindering operations. As far as homosexuals, I never really care if a soldier was gay or not. When DADT ended, I gave my guys a new rule to think about. I told them to replace DADT with I still don't care. It worked out fine because I never put much thought into people's sexual preference.
I had a LT try to chapter one of my guys because he saw him kiss another man. I told him that I don't give a flying fuck what my soldiers put in their asses when off duty.

If you're afraid of some gay guy ruining the unit, I've got news for you. You've probably served with one or two. So just let them have a poster saying that they're appreciated by the organization they work for. Seeing gay people being acknowledged isn't going to turn you gay.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Jun 29 at 2016 2:19 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 14:19:08 -0400

Dude, you left out St Patrick parade, Cinco de Mayo, you do have an issue with LGBT, looks more like you got you bitch on. So be careful because Senior Leaders will read you posts and call you on it.

Response by 1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2016 3:01 PM

1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 15:01:53 -0400

I have no issues with someone's sexual orientation - hetero/homo/bi/trans/bestial/asexual, as long as it isn't directed toward me. That being said, good order and discipline are primary to military command and control and once we start parading sexuality in a public forum, which is being done by service members in uniform - we can kiss good order and discipline goodbye. Thank you to all who commented in a professional and proper manner. To everyone else, grow up and realize you're the one with bias and prejudice. Just because people may have different belief systems than you and don't want to drink the Kool-Aid, doesn't mean that they hate or have something against others. They were just raised differently and their character and morals are non-negotiable.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2016 3:40 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 15:40:41 -0400

January None to date
February African American History Month
March National Women's History Month
April None to date
May Asian Pacific American Heritage, Older Americans Month and Jewish American Heritage Month
June Gay Lesbian Pride Month
July None to date
August None to date
September National Hispanic-Latino Heritage Month (Sept. 15-Oct. 15)
October National Disability Employment Awareness Month and National Italian American Heritage Month
November National American Indian Heritage Month
December None to date; are two international commemorations

If you have a special interest group that needs a month, act now we're running out fast.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2016 4:12 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 16:12:04 -0400

The short answer is this: the Federal Government considers LGBT and other special observances conducive to good order and discipline, so government agencies do not have a choice. Longer answer: a few years ago, the Installation Commander tasked me as Project Officer for a particular awareness month because no one representing that group had stepped up to lead it. I asked the Equal Opportunity (EO) director, "If no one from this group is interested in observing this month, then why are we doing it?" The EO director answered: "Federal law mandates that we do it." I'm not sure exactly what law mandates it. There is an Executive Order from POTUS dated 18 August 2011 directing government agencies to "establish a coordinated Government-wide initiative to promote diversity and inclusion in the Federal workforce," so I imagine the mandate is an outflow of that Executive Order.

BTW...this link provides a list of special observance products provided by DEOMI (Defense Equal Opportunity Management Institute). I cannot find a specific list that says "You must do these observances," but this list can give you a basic overview of what's expected of federal agencies...https://www.deomi.org/SpecialObservance/index.cfm

If someone from EO could weigh in with more specific guidance, that would be helpful.

DEOMI - offers Equal Opportunity/Equal Employment Opportunity education and training for military...

Many of our DEOMI observance products are designed without dates and may be used for any observance year. Choose the product or design that best fits your needs.

Response by SSG Kristopher Rigdon made Jun 30 at 2016 12:51 AM

SSG Kristopher Rigdon — Thu, 30 Jun 2016 00:51:13 -0400

The same as any other special month

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2016 5:30 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Jun 2016 05:30:27 -0400

The fact of the matter is that they are not "condoning" anything. They are simply tolerating it because one; they are weak, and two; they only have a few years left until they retire and never have to look back. Most Senior Leaders understand the Military is in a massive moral decline and that it is being crippled because of Marxist political correctness. But, as to be expected, in times like these, all people (not just senior leaders) revert back to their own self protection and preservation. It is a natural result of what happens in all organizations that are infected with the disease of Marxism.

Response by 1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 2:03 AM

1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 02:03:30 -0400

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