How do Senior NCO's feel about the new rating system, and how effective do you think it will be in future promotions?

2015-10-29T16:45:52-04:00

I would like to get some honest feedback from other Senior NCO's about how they, one, plan to manage their Senior Rater profile, and two, how they feel about competing directly with their peers for those top blocks?

Response by SFC David McMahon made Oct 29 at 2015 4:49 PM

2015-10-29T16:49:42-04:00

I can't offer any relavent comments because I'm "walking out the door" but this approach is a reaction to the common practice of over inflating the old system. If you counsel and mentor like your supposed to and HONESTLY rate, this would have never happened. I fear this may cause unneeded tension within the ranks.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2015 5:01 PM

2015-10-29T17:01:16-04:00

I'm not worried about it. It's not about me. It's about training and motivating my joes. All I care about is making sure they are learning something or doing something productive 100% of the time.
If I get a center mass for doing that, then my unit is in good shape.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2015 5:34 PM

2015-10-29T17:34:15-04:00

Over the years, NCOERs have been plagued with overrated evaluations that have promoted many while some of our good NCOs were unable to extend their careers.

Additionally, NCOs, Warrant Officers and Officers at times have failed to properly assess rated NCO quarterly as some NCOs have failed to inquire to be quarterly rated feeling they’ll automatically receive a 1-1 and Among the Best.

It amazes me how many can only recite only the portion to acquire what they want but not know the entire piece or the regulation govern their NCOER. Many are never informed what to do if theirs an issue with their report until it’s past overdue and assume if the First Sergeant and CSM can’t fix, to call IG when they should know to speak with their senior rater and then reviewer if still unresolved before it’s submitted.

No one system is the best but it is a move in the right direction to fix what has been broken to force leaders to accurately assess and evaluate NCOs. This also requires NCOs to seek their raters out to ensure they receive their quarterly counseling, as we should be promoting our best to continue serving.

Some MOSs by virtue of MOS has a hard time making senior ranks, such as 92R, 92W, and 89B to list a few.

To finish off, with many years experience in the S-3, I would at times receive Soldiers that were removed from other companies and had to deal with their situations, making them an effective part of the section and rehabilitating to sustain our mission. I always stated, junk in is junk out.

Many great leaders and countries have collapsed for one reason or another. We must take pride to lead, guide, and help promote Soldiers who not only envision the NCO Creed but also express key words that have meaning when reciting versus saying it fast. Then hold fast to the NCO Charge to remind them their duty and responsibility as we build future leaders to replace us come retirement time.

We are a product of our own success and failure. The regulations never change but if I allow, then I just created a new one (AR 623-23-Williams; example)

I pray you understand my point to your question and hopefully gave light to your question as well.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2015 5:39 PM

2015-10-29T17:39:21-04:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member in my opinion, this is long overdue. The system has been inflated for years, seriously how can a board accurately select people for promotion when over 92% of the candidates receive 1/1 ratings?! I believe it will be very effective in future promotions as we will start to see only the truly cream of the crop receive ACOMs (above center of mass) and the meat of the NCOER will now be in the paragraph your Senior Rater writes about you instead of being limited to 3-4 bullets. That paragraph will carry more weight than anything else on the NCOER, even if you don't receive an ACOM. How will I manage my profile? Very carefully, because we an opportunity here. This is the ground floor of a new system, let's not jack it up by continuing to overinflate. Be honest and forthcoming with our junior NCOs and rate them accordingly. How do I feel about competing with my peers? Haven't we already been competing? Seriously though, there will be some who try to politic and backstab others but in the end, I feel that if I focus on doing my job to the best of my ability, training my Soldiers and getting the mission accomplished should carry me to where I need to be. As the BN S1 NCOIC, my peer is really only the BN S4 NCOIC. The S2 is a SSG slot, the S3 is a MSG slot. It won't always be that way, but like I just stated, I'm focused on doing my job and let the cards fall where they may. CSM Michael J. Uhlig , your thoughts?

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2015 6:31 PM

2015-10-29T18:31:31-04:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member , for those of us that are nonArmy types, how about throwing up a example of what you are writing about.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2015 9:59 PM

2015-10-29T21:59:32-04:00

While not quite a senior NCO...soon, though, soon.... I think this new rating system will present challenges for the part-time army. Many raters don't get much observation time with their soldiers, other then what they may see during AT. And that is if they actually attend AT during the same time frame. Senior raters have even less exposure. How can they be asked to make an honest assessment, let alone make a comparison?

I can see the narrative block now: "SGT Smith excelled at setting the example of how to pay attention during the many powerpoint classes held during battle training assembly. I can only assume that this standard carried forward to his duty during annual training, based on what I was told by others who attended the exercise with him"

Sure that example was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I think this is a valid concern.

Response by SFC A.M. Drake made Oct 29 at 2015 10:12 PM

2015-10-29T22:12:50-04:00

Politics at its worst! SM will sell their souls for a chance at a 1-1....it will become very "clickish" and if you not in the group, you're done!

Response by 1SG Eric Rice made Oct 30 at 2015 1:58 AM

2015-10-30T01:58:15-04:00

Great discussion topic...I agree with many other contributors to the thread in that this is long overdue. Yes we have had issues with over-inflated NCOERs and Raters and Sr. Raters not contributing to the process. The new system is essentially nothing more than a forcing mechanism for Rater Accountability. The brutal honesty is something that is necessary for our Army to progress to the next level of professionalism that has been pushed aside because of the "Good ol' Boy" system or simply checking the block because it is required. There will be flaws in the new system and is to be expected with implementing something new on this scale.

Regarding management of my Senior Rater Profile I will have to take a long look at those that I will rate and make sure that I'm providing the honest assessment. This part is going to be challenging as you are limited on what you can give.

As far as competing with peers we have been doing this for a long time. The only difference now is that it will be on paper and you will know where you stand. Knowing where you stand gives you something to strive for in many cases.

Just my thoughts on the subject....

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Oct 30 at 2015 4:53 AM

2015-10-30T04:53:32-04:00

The question should be, how do you feel about NCO'S writing their own NCOER

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2015 10:36 AM

2015-10-30T10:36:50-04:00

Well, in my most professional and personal opinion, the promotion system is flawed. To clarify, it is subject to human error. Let's be honest, if you know me and have had a previous work relationship with me good/bad it will determine if I get selected/not selected. Everyone is not going to agree with my opinion, but then again it's only my opinion. Now, comes the matter of the evaluation reports, it's flawed as well due to the same aforementioned reason…human error. Let's stop kidding ourselves, we know good evaluation reports and selection for promotion are all subject to human error.

Response by SFC Craig Dalen made Oct 30 at 2015 11:18 AM

2015-10-30T11:18:25-04:00

I believe that it will weed out the leaders that just give everyone among the best ratings. It will also allow the selection boards to really get a better assessment of the personnel available for promotion. It is sad that it had to come to this but it is definitely a start.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2015 12:10 PM

2015-10-30T12:10:20-04:00

I have yet to decide if this is a good or bad move. About a year after it has been implemented we will have a much better view of the positive or negative effects. A lot of people are saying it will remove the overinflated ratings, however the ratings will just move one space lower on the new evaluations. It will however ensure Soldiers counselings dates enter in a timely manner. WE shall see, I hope it improves over the current system.

Response by MSG Tim Gray made Oct 30 at 2015 10:12 PM

2015-10-30T22:12:13-04:00

I hope this new system, is an improvement and has fail safe features. Specifically promoting individuals for quantifiable qualifications. I was a firm believer in not over qualifying an individual and only evaluating the mission accomplishment. I tried to be the professional who rated his subordinates accordingly, only to have the selection committee promoted an individual who was NOT recommended for promotion. That really blew motivation out the window and across state lines for our organization. After that I never took advice from anyone on how to conduct my evaluations or what they felt should be included in them. This caused a rift between me and the senior raters. But I was done with it! Senior raters at the E8/E9 level had better mirror the comments of the rater without exception. The only possible exception being at Corps or higher level where there is at least bi weekly presence to collaborate a working knowledge of day to day functions.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2015 5:31 PM

2015-10-31T17:31:07-04:00

It's better then the current system. But I still belive the NCOER holds too much weight on one's career.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2015 8:34 AM

2015-11-01T08:34:11-05:00

As officers have been under a similar system, here are a couple observations from an officer perspective:

1) Lots of junior and mid grade officers will now have senior rater profiles to manage. In addition to NCOs mentoring these officers on how to write an NCOER, someone is going to have to mentor them on how to manage a rater and senior rater profile. This isn't just NCO business. Also, this creates an enormous administrative burden across the Army.

2) Senior raters owe it to those they senior rate an Honest conversation about the constraints of their senior rater profile and their rating philosophy. This could be done via counseling. Essentially, senior raters, at least initially, are going to have to tell almost everyone they rate that there just aren't going to be any ACOMs given out...because the forced distribution doesn't allow for this.

3) Senior rater narratives need to be written with a stratification. For example, "This is the number 1 of 8 SSGs that I senior rate." Non-stratified senior rater comments are, frankly, garbage. Same goes for rater comments: stratify. Narratives without a stratification send a very strong negative message.

4) Counseling. The requirement to counsel subordinates hasn't changed; what makes so many think that the new NCOER form is going to make people start doing counseling correctly? Do we really think that this isn't going to be a check-the-block, finger-drilled activity? Do we really think one form is going to have such a huge change on the Army?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2015 10:38 AM

2015-11-02T10:38:02-05:00

There is one problem that the automated system will correct, closeout NCOER's when SM transfers or returns to home unit coming off mobilization. Every M day NCO, and a few full timers, have encountered the problem where someone transferred, and losing unit refuses to complete an NCOER. In the automated system, this gets command attention.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 6:53 AM

2015-11-03T06:53:27-05:00

I think the ncoer system will remain corrupt until the Army prevents 1SGs and CSMs from unfluencing the downgrading of senior blocks. This is what the reg says however the Army as a whole looks the other way on this issue!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2015 12:39 AM

2015-11-04T00:39:52-05:00

Speaking with some officers in my unit, shows that it will continue to be a lot of self evaluations and limiting the top slot for only a certain number of evaluations is not going to be an indicator if you are the best of that group. And it is said that the supporting bullets and narratives will account for missing out on top slot but if this is true why even use the top slot

Response by MSG Don Burt made Nov 4 at 2015 6:52 PM

2015-11-04T18:52:00-05:00

I can't really comment these days as I've been out too long, but, competition is something you have to live with whether you like it or not...it really makes you a better leader and helps you search all avenues
that will endeavor your efforts many times over for future leadership positions, with knowledge!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2015 12:49 PM

2015-11-05T12:49:39-05:00

I think the new NCOER and rating system will bring the best o the top and put he bottom out if he Army as as it is designed to do. Senior leaders have been too nice for oo long to NCOS who don't deserve it. We don't need more "good guys" we need more qualified and motivated leaders to take he helm in the next fight. I'm loving it. BLUF I have served with amazing NCOs I don't project too many making the "among he best" block anyway.

Response by SFC Patrick R. Weston, MPH made Nov 13 at 2015 6:02 PM

2015-11-13T18:02:46-05:00

I think until the culture surrounding annual evaluations changes and we as leaders take a more objective approach to rating Soldiers based on performance and potential, rather than their likability or from fear of punishing a "good guy", it won't matter what the form looks like.

Response by SFC Jerry Humphries made Nov 26 at 2015 3:11 PM

2015-11-26T15:11:08-05:00

I just read this andI am amazed to find, the army is once again revamping the Evaluation system. They went to the NCOER system around 1988. Some of you might be shocked to find out comments on the issues we the pre 88 evaluation system were same as now. Just some food for thought.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2015 3:37 PM

2015-11-26T15:37:17-05:00

I think its a manageable system within large organizations that have a large enough population. Not so much for some joint organizations and organizations that are heavy government civilians with a peppering of military.