How do traditional track officers feel about mustang officers?

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Jun 2018 10:12:57 -0400

I’m curious how due course officers (Academy, ROTC, OCS) who have no prior enlisted service, feel about officers who were NCOs (some even Senior NCO)? In my experience it can be a double edged sword. On one hand you can earn instant credibility with the NCOs but at times your officers can make some pretty bold assumptions about what type of officer you are because of your enlisted service. Thoughts?

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Jun 3 at 2018 10:15 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Sun, 03 Jun 2018 10:15:50 -0400

I knew many active enlisted who’d interserviced when I was at USAF OTS one a CMSgt trust me from what I saw being prior enlisted which I wasn’t though I would’ve ha I not gotten OTS always helps honest....

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Jun 3 at 2018 10:17 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Sun, 03 Jun 2018 10:17:26 -0400

I'm a Mustang. The issue I noticed was due course officers were at times jealous as they knew I had more experience and knowledge. The perception was I got the better assignment, hence a better track towards fruit salad. The ENL community sometimes were leery because they assumed I knew all their tricks. In general, those who fixate on the mustang thing tend to have a concern about their own prospects and abilities. Those who are hard chargers, competent, etc. usually could care less.

Response by COL Brad Welch made Jun 3 at 2018 11:02 AM

COL Brad Welch — Sun, 03 Jun 2018 11:02:36 -0400

ROTC: Seen both good and bad. Some have a chip on their shoulder and expect their non-prior peers to pay homage to them for any tidbits of wisdom themy my provide. The good ones are more open and team-oriented.

Like all people though, you have to assess each individually. The important thing is to follow the golden rule, always maintain the high ground, and assist when possible.

The way to get ahead is not by bringing others down. It is to find your nitch and cultivate it to the point your superiors find that your craft is indispensable to their success.

Good luck.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 3 at 2018 3:48 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 03 Jun 2018 15:48:33 -0400

I believe those who graduated from ROTC and the Academies have a tendency to be struck by the imperfections of Active Duty.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jun 3 at 2018 4:11 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Sun, 03 Jun 2018 16:11:46 -0400

It’s like with all ranks, seen good, seen bad, and seen meh. Really depended on what they brought to the table. Some thoughts on a few pitfalls:
- sometimes they can be trapped in old paradigms
- sometimes if they were NCOs, they gravitate there. At company level this is problematic. There can only be one first sergeant. At BN level it’s toxic. There is one CSM.
- refusing any help, advice, or new information, ‘cuz I used to be a <insert MOS that doesn’t apply to the problem at hand> and I know it all’

I generally liked prior service officers and worked well with them.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jun 3 at 2018 7:05 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Sun, 03 Jun 2018 19:05:44 -0400

Although I was an ROTC grad, I respected the experience of prior service officers. Often didn’t know who was prior service until we had occasion to wear service dress and the prior service LT showed up with two rows of ribbons. Most LTs at the time had one or two ribbons.
As a pilot training instructor, I noticed the prior service pilot students adapted quickly to the training environment and were more focused than the other students. Most of the prior service students were older and married, which tended to help them settle in and focus. After a month or so all of the students adapted regardless of commissioning source.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2018 8:01 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 08:01:08 -0400

I was raised by an Army NCO, so getting the acceptance letter to Annapolis was a shared moment for both of us. My father was the first person to salute me on graduation...and he's still my greatest hero and adviser. When I reported to my first ship, I brought along a great deal of respect (and yes...probably a little "hero worship" ) regarding NCOs. To me, they were the people "in charge"; I was there to learn from them so that one day, when I was in "command" (two different words as I understand them)...I'd perhaps be able to lead such professionals without making a total mess of things.

"Mustangs", in my limited experience, came in two distinct varieties: First, there were those who had enormous experience and knowledge and made excellent officers-instantly commanding respect from peers and subordinates because they "understood" life on both sides of the aisle and possessed extreme levels of knowledge they had no difficulty applying in their new roles. Second, there were those (very few) who seemed to have chosen to cross over with (and I mean this respectfully)...a poor understanding of what their new position "meant" to those above and below them.

Maybe these few exceptions had been run over rough shod as enlisted folks and saw their bars as being "power" to shift the scales? Perhaps one or two really hated being enlisted, and thought of officers as a higher "social class" they had ascended to? Either way, I've seen new JOs with significant former enlisted experience berate subordinates for no reason...show disrespect to SNCOs because they "could", and treat peers like personal minions...and I've seen brand new ROTC grads sweat blood for their guys.

That said, one of the best officers I ever knew was a "Mustang"; a former Marine NCO who came over to the Navy as a SWO. His sailors were well disciplined, well represented, and he had their utmost respect. Another fine officer who taught me a great deal was one who put on his bars after making E-7.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to the individual and their motivation for seeking a commission.

Response by LTJG Richard Bruce made Jun 4 at 2018 10:36 PM

LTJG Richard Bruce — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 22:36:49 -0400

In the Coast Guard, it is nearly impossible for one to become a senior officer without going through the Academy or OCS. CG does pick up a few officers from other services, the Merchant Marines, and other sources that meet a specific need. There is also a CWO to LT program that involves an handful a year. There are an handful of enlisted that get Academy appointments. I was one of about ten in my class of 351. Currently there are 5,580 commissioned officers and 1,490 warrant officers.

Response by LCDR Keith Trepanier made Jun 13 at 2018 2:23 PM

LCDR Keith Trepanier — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 14:23:26 -0400

The real question is, do Mustang officers care how the others feel? No. We don't.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2018 8:03 AM

LTJG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Aug 2018 08:03:43 -0400

I generally have assumptions made about me as soon as I'm found out to be a mustang. I suppose most do and it's better than having negative assumptions made about you but better to be underestimated than over estimated.

Not that this is a problem or I'm Intimidated by the expectations but in my short career as an officer which only exists in a training environment, it's been consistent.

Response by COL John McClellan made Oct 25 at 2018 10:02 AM

COL John McClellan — Thu, 25 Oct 2018 10:02:54 -0400

Tremendous asset as long as you embrace the new role for what it is, and avoid some of the pitfalls such as those that LTC Mackay described in his reply. As a "career" officer, I never paid much attention at all to source/path to the commission, only whether my peers or subordinate officers knew their job, and acted in the best interest of our unit and in concert with Army values.

Response by Lt Col Robert Canfield made Mar 23 at 2019 8:36 PM

Lt Col Robert Canfield — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 20:36:48 -0400

Back in Roman times when I was a new 2nd Lt (non-prior service), we had a group of 9 or 10 prior service 2nd Lieutenants join our tech training class, after we had been in training for about 2 months. The prior service officers were allowed to skip the first two months of the course due to their past training and experience. Their past NCO experience, and the "inside baseball" advice that we got from them during our remaining 6 months of training, was quite beneficial. I know we would not have been able to get that kind of perspective just by listening to the usual cadre of career officer and civilian instructors. The key thing that mustang officers must "get", is that they must make that mental transition from doer/leader to leader/motivator. Some NCOs have difficulty with this and try to do their NCO's job for them, and as a result, they get "too deep into the weeds" and lose focus on the bigger issues. Having the ability to confidentially consult with peer level officers who "have been there", can be a great resource.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2020 10:38 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Oct 2020 10:38:02 -0400

As a mustang (SGT before commissioning in 2004) I believe the experience helped me see things through a different point if view. It was a little bumpy during my PL time. I wanted to start doing NCO tasks that I was more familiar with during stressful times out of habit. After two or three behind doors talks with my PSG we got on the right page. Personally, I am glad I had the experience of being an NCO and believe it made me a better officer. In the end I have worked with amazing officers who were not prior service so I dont believe it makes someone better or worse, just different perspectives that can help the team.