How do we rebuild the mental toughness of new troops while keeping with the military's new direction?

2016-09-17T21:13:08-04:00

PTSD out of basic? Night terrors out of AIT? IG and EO complaints? Reports of "hazing" for being dropped for 20 push ups? How do we, as leaders, compensate for the decline of mental toughness in today's new recruits? How can we produce a quality product when we are expected to treat a new E1 with the same respect as an O10?

Response by SGM Barry Kindred made Sep 17 at 2016 9:16 PM

2016-09-17T21:16:14-04:00

Out with the new and back to the old. We are war fighters not social experiments.

Response by SN Kevin Neff made Sep 17 at 2016 9:17 PM

2016-09-17T21:17:12-04:00

By doing psych evals prior to basic. A lot of these guys go into basic thinking it'll be a walk in the park and when they realize different, they can't handle it. Ptsd is also being thrown out like candy nowadays too.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2016 9:44 PM

2016-09-17T21:44:30-04:00

I bet there is a significant rise in Chapter 5-17s ???? Seen this quite a bit on Fort Jackson...

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Sep 17 at 2016 9:47 PM

2016-09-17T21:47:46-04:00

This starts with the idea everything is bullying, then we have safe place and micro-aggression disciussion training. In the military we kill people and break things. We are developing marshmallows up to the point they enter the military where they are taught things to survive in a combat situation. These things are contradictory. We can succeed, as evidenced by our armed forces, but the enemy don't have to teach their troops the pc aspects of the battle field.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2016 10:17 PM

2016-09-17T22:17:59-04:00

One persons training is another persons hazing? I don't think there will be an easy answer...When I was in Basic Training...(1983)...the hardest thing for me to deal with was Physical Training...I wish I had known the requirements prior b/c if I could have gone into Basic "fit" already it would have been much more easy on me..I wasnt into sports in High School...I was a Band Geek...I was worried about failing the APFT at the end of basic and being a "recycle"....as a result of my fears...I dropped 60 pounds and passed the APFT....the tasks learned were generally pretty easy...BRM was my favorite....I think the answer to this will be in the recruitment phase....ROTC gives a pretty good idea of what its all about while going through the commissioning process for the officers...perhaps there should be something similiar for Enlisted Candidates??? (perhaps make Jr. ROTC a little tougher??? If I had known when I was 16 what the physical requirements were going to be I could have worked on it prior to going in and Basic would have been a snap...

Response by SGT Philip Roncari made Sep 17 at 2016 10:34 PM

2016-09-17T22:34:42-04:00

I think that the raw material the Military gets today in this all volunteer Army is what the society of present day America is producing,everyone gets a trophy,cars for high school kids,no such things as curfews,and then they join the Military where civilized society as we know it ceases to exist,quite a culture shock to say the least,how to rebuild mental toughness in today's generation probably should start with mommy and daddy taking a little more time telling the kiddies the world is a tough place and everybody doesn't play well with others.

Response by SPC Shane Drum made Sep 17 at 2016 10:37 PM

2016-09-17T22:37:26-04:00

You can't make them tough I hope we are not fucked

Response by SFC George Smith made Sep 17 at 2016 11:14 PM

2016-09-17T23:14:13-04:00

did not know things have dropped so low...

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2016 11:51 PM

2016-09-17T23:51:33-04:00

Is there a reason you shouldn't treat an E-1 like you'd treat an O-10? People are people.

Response by James Adair made Sep 18 at 2016 2:05 AM

2016-09-18T02:05:21-04:00

by exposing weakness early and building the weak up

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Sep 18 at 2016 2:15 AM

2016-09-18T02:15:14-04:00

Some very valid points Sgt Lawritson. I know more recently young people who wanted to enlist to be Navy seals were sent to Hanscom AFB, MA to do exactly that, training, physical exercise etc to prepare them and perhaps weed out some that wouldn't cut the mustard. They ended up understanding much more at least as a result of this Navy program. also the included physical training including, running, exercises, water etc made sure they were in shape.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Sep 18 at 2016 9:46 AM

2016-09-18T09:46:05-04:00

ENS Private RallyPoint Member IMO it's from being coddled in today's, everyone gets a trophy, society.

Response by Barry Davidson made Sep 18 at 2016 11:49 AM

2016-09-18T11:49:31-04:00

Sgt. Roncari has quite a few good points. Unfortunately, I wish it was as easy as mommy and daddy stepping up to the plate. I've spent many long hours trying to deprogram my children when they come home from school. It's everywhere. About the only way we're going to get back to a majority of mentally prepared people is to get rid of cell phones, internet, TV, and home school all of our children. It might be too late though. We already have a couple of generations of "everyone gets a trophy" parents out there.

I've said this in many an article written, but if you tell people long enough and loud enough that they're a victim, they're going to believe it. I usually get derided, at best, for comments like that. I can only imagine what drill instructors have to put up with, but I have a pretty good imagination based on my experiences in management. (Every time I hear someone say, "I did my stint just to get money for college," I want to slap em. Even worse for conscientious objectors.)

I especially love reading college teeny-boppers quoting stats on PTSD. I know it's real soldiers so don't get me wrong. However, why are the majority of instances not among actual combat veterans, but FOBBITS and REMFs? (If there is some new research done by the military that I haven't seen on this subject, please excuse the comment.) I just happen to believe that people who are mentally prepared to defend their homes and family with deadly force have an easier time in the military. Modern America is doing everything in its power to squash that preparation.

Response by SGT Tim Soyars made Sep 18 at 2016 1:18 PM

2016-09-18T13:18:25-04:00

I think we should set the rules for the trainers back to the 70s & early 80s style. Things were a bit more "hands on". Wall to Wall counseling, Atitude adjustment, blanket parties, etc. there is a time for individualism and a time for conformity and being part of a time. Leave you street rep on the streets. Build your military rep as a good, hard charger. Set the bar high, then aim higher.

Response by SFC Pete Kain made Sep 18 at 2016 2:20 PM

2016-09-18T14:20:00-04:00

To quote the French Foreign Legion.....March Or Die. Quit coddling them. They enlisted not drafted fer christs sake.
Thankfully most rise to the challenge. Those that don't.....shrug see ya.

Response by 1LT David Hilgartner made Sep 18 at 2016 2:49 PM

2016-09-18T14:49:16-04:00

Here is a simple idea, but hard to implement. Let's pay ALL our troops really well, and make recruiting more selective. Make it competitive, and pick the best. My family has a lot of prior military; my Dad credited the Corps with turning his life around and keeping him out of jail (he enlisted, and retired a Col.). I am watching my stepson turn into an awesome young man thanks to the Corps. Our family has members in every branch of the military (except Natl. Guard, but I might be wrong. I lost track of who is where) All of them feel that they are better for having served. PTSD from AIT? That insults our combat vets with REAL issues. It starts with just telling them NO and saying 'grow up'. Stop apologizing for turning men and women into soldiers. But if our president is going to apologize for the entire US to our enemies, what do we expect from the rest of our 'leaders'?

Response by SPC Carlos R. made Sep 18 at 2016 3:16 PM

2016-09-18T15:16:54-04:00

We need generals that tell our civilian leaders that we train to win wars anything less than that will bring more body bags.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2016 4:05 PM

2016-09-18T16:05:00-04:00

You can candidly and honestly "tell it like it is" with a signed and written counseling statement. A good "one on one, come to Jesus" meeting with the NCO can often force folks to wake up. I blame the school systems and "participation trophies" for giving us soft trainees. The boot experience is the first time many of them have ever been challenged.

Response by Cpl Zach Wellborn made Sep 18 at 2016 5:35 PM

2016-09-18T17:35:24-04:00

Last time I checked we train for war. Not to write home to mommy, not to comfort mommas boys, and definitely not to wipe away tears from a cry baby. Boot camp is supposed to create men. You want to fix things? Get the media out of war zones, eliminate political bullshit in boot camp. We all know some people need to be punched in the face. Better in boot camp than out of it. They signed up, what makes them think they have any kind of say in anything? You do what the fuck you're told.

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Sep 18 at 2016 8:49 PM

2016-09-18T20:49:42-04:00

When you create a nation of wimps and assholes that is what you will also get in the military.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2016 9:25 PM

2016-09-18T21:25:00-04:00

I will say this, the hardest part of my job is dealing the restrictions that we are faced with as Drill Sergeants, the line is very thin, and crossing it is very easy. It's not as cut and dry as let's raise them the way we were raised in the military, the country has changed since we have all joined, for better or worse. If there is blame to be laid it is in the parents though, they are the ones who raised the generation that we are dealing with. Then we can blame the Brass for bending to the will of the people and not sticking to what has been tried and true. We as leaders, need to find a different way to motivate and cultivate new Soldiers, Marines, Airmen, Sailors, and Coast Guardsmen. We need to step up and be leaders, the way that our respective branches think that we should be able to be.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2016 2:36 AM

2016-09-19T02:36:57-04:00

You can't
We have to chose
You can be respectful to service-members without making them into and tolerate them being weak mentally and physically

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2016 3:54 AM

2016-09-19T03:54:32-04:00

1. Set standards. 2. Enforce them. We can complain about the younger generation all day, but as leaders we have a responsibility to shape them into productive service members. Not everyone is cut out for the military life, and those individuals usually don't last long (4 years at the most). Most others are willing to be led and trained and do the job they signed up for. Some require more of a push than others, but I have seen bad Sailors turn around, and vice versa.

Response by SCPO Jason McLaughlin made Sep 19 at 2016 9:48 AM

2016-09-19T09:48:18-04:00

Perhaps the issue isn't with the new recruits, but with leaderships failure to adapt to a changing reality?

Response by PFC Al Sethre made Sep 19 at 2016 11:26 AM

2016-09-19T11:26:19-04:00

Recruit from prisons. A lot of people coming out of there are generally hard motherf*ckers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2016 3:15 PM

2016-09-19T15:15:20-04:00

This is a result of the politically correct, everyone needs to appease everyone else world we live in. Listen, not everything is going to go your way. Not everything is a happy walk in the park. You will not always get a participation award, sometimes you have to actually perform up to or above the standards.
Basic training needs to push these kids physically and mentally to their breaking point. That is what war will do. We have to be sure they can handle the stress before it becomes a life and death issue.

Response by Sgt William Perry made Sep 19 at 2016 11:45 PM

2016-09-19T23:45:35-04:00

The mental toughness has to start at home, when their good and young! The real problem is that discipline is considered fucking child abuse now. A good ole ass whooping every now again when nesseccary to teach manners, respect, and to remind an individual that stupidity hurts always worked when I was growing up!

Response by MCPO Tommy De Rouville made Sep 20 at 2016 3:54 AM

2016-09-20T03:54:54-04:00

Stupid . If they can't participate in training.. Dump them as unfit with a less than honorable discharge. They frauded the Govt. and failed to uphold the enlistment contract. Those over 40 guys, should be retired or just discharged.

Response by Sgt Lee Richards made Sep 21 at 2016 7:59 AM

2016-09-21T07:59:53-04:00

This is the result when you allow a society to let their young continue to believe that they are entitled to things that they have no appreciation of or for the cost at which it was obtained! Spank your kids and teach them respect and appreciation for others, mental toughness will follow!

Response by SSgt Boyd Welch made Sep 21 at 2016 9:11 AM

2016-09-21T09:11:56-04:00

Little to no discipline in the home. Families do not instill discipline in the home any longer. No work ethic because the schools and society worry too much about damaging a child's psyche if the chew them out for something that was the child's responsibility.

Response by SGT David Baker made Sep 29 at 2016 2:12 AM

2016-09-29T02:12:02-04:00

They are *supposed* to be weeded out in basic. They are *supposed* to be driven to the breaking point, and the ones that actually break sent home to mommy. By the time they get to their first real world assignment, they should be able to put up with physical and mental stress without showing a card, finding their "safe space" (no doubt equipped with a binkie-n-blankie), or filing an EO complaint.

So glad I got out when I did, I'd have been court-martialed by now for being mean or something.

Y'all active duty leaders, I feel for you. Maybe it will get better over the next couple years.

Response by SFC Joji Siller made Sep 30 at 2016 1:04 PM

2016-09-30T13:04:08-04:00

kick them OUT

Response by MSgt J D McKee made Jan 24 at 2017 12:14 PM

2017-01-24T12:14:44-05:00

Change the direction of the military.

Response by CPL Amber McMillian made Mar 9 at 2017 8:58 PM

2017-03-09T20:58:42-05:00

I honestly think we need to go back to breaking emotions and physical and mental weaknesses! How else are we supposed to be a military strong/fearless enough to take on our enemies? Now it's like hey me terrorist give me 5 seconds because you are stressing me out!!!!! What in the actual hell is that??????

Response by Trevor Christian made Mar 14 at 2017 3:16 AM

2017-03-14T03:16:06-04:00

I was in BCT, unfortunately I didnt pass, but I still didnt think I was getting hazed or bullied. That's their job: To break you down and then build you back up then repeat until you form some resilience. That's why they say "suck it up and carry on"

Response by LTC Jesse Edwards made Mar 14 at 2017 1:43 PM

2017-03-14T13:43:37-04:00

Please tell me that original post by PO1 Martin is an exaggeration.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2017 1:53 AM

2017-03-15T01:53:18-04:00

By comparison 1972 ---> , today's UCMJ is FUBAR , you have my sympathy .

Response by SGT Jack Stevens made Mar 19 at 2017 8:46 PM

2017-03-19T20:46:49-04:00

Today's Snowflakes, the ones that cry and throw temper tantrums then, after their initial training show up at their first duty station. Expecting to still be coddled. Remember IETs are meant only to introduce and then AITs were meant the basics of the job. Lowest of the rung on the ladder. They are suppose to get their real training in their first units. So you need to have that first heart to heart talk with new soldier, that life is tough, but war is tougher. Time they grew up very quickly and understand they are no longer a kid. Welcome to the Real World.

Response by LCpl Johnny Carroll made Mar 21 at 2017 8:46 PM

2017-03-21T20:46:41-04:00

send him home with a undisable

Response by PV2 Mike Hunter made Apr 2 at 2017 9:49 PM

2017-04-02T21:49:57-04:00

Tell them to put there big boy pants on and get on the plane

Response by Michael Steele made Apr 3 at 2017 11:38 AM

2017-04-03T11:38:20-04:00

Every trop is going to experience hardship an dislikes. Government before recruitment should have a stress test.or simulation of .on site combat from .life an death situation and live combat simulation. Get deep inside there head see what it takes to brake them both physical and mental.

Response by SPC Joey Gibson made Apr 3 at 2017 12:11 PM

2017-04-03T12:11:51-04:00

It is a matter of adjusting our reaction. If we dont want pansies, don't give pansy behavior any merit. The more we give the more they will give up.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2017 8:26 AM

2017-04-04T08:26:05-04:00

I wonder if the new Ready and Resilient program can curb some of that. I just don't understand. When I went to Basic Combat Training in 1998, I understood that I would be yelled at. I knew that the level of intensity was severely decreased from previous years. Drill Sergeants were no longer allowed to physically punch or kick recruits, etc. I heard they were not allowed to cuss at us, but they did and none of us said anything. I went to Basic and AIT as part of the National Guard's split option training program with a company of other like-minded 17y/o's. We all played the game, trained hard, and played hard.

Response by SGT Scott Henderson made Apr 28 at 2017 3:58 PM

2017-04-28T15:58:39-04:00

You can't. SJW's need to un-ass the military and all these bleeding heart, tree hugging, fuck tards need to leave the military alone as well. It's a profession centered on the enforcement of political will through the implementation of brute force. What receipts don't or won't understand is that in the course of their duty someone will most likely attempt to kill them and to stop then they may have to kill them first. Pussy used to be something you"ate", now it defines an entire generation of Americans

Response by PO1 Aaron Baltosser made Apr 28 at 2017 5:26 PM

2017-04-28T17:26:45-04:00

It starts with getting willing, qualified, desirable recruits from the word go and properly training them. These 'end of the month quota' types just to make mission on paper, do not translate into strong additions to the military network.

Response by SPC David Hannaman made May 10 at 2017 9:28 PM

2017-05-10T21:28:42-04:00

Start recruiting football players, quit recruiting guys with no options because they've never had to do any work.

There just aren't any farm boys left to recruit...

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Nov 27 at 2017 4:44 AM

2017-11-27T04:44:55-05:00

If they have that/those probs it’s time for to get that paper ready and cut them loose.. those running the program will be too busy to babysit and mollycoddle ..
time to climb out of the abyss and get back to the program we had before he came along. That guy done too much social engineering as it is and made a major clusterflop and laughing stock
Of our Military. I think we should consider
Suing the guy and his study groups for
Malpractice.

Response by Sgt Phil Ruloph made Jan 15 at 2018 9:13 PM

2018-01-15T21:13:18-05:00

Discipline instills respect. I was told in boot camp the TI can't even curse at the recruits, and if they get the feelings hurt they can call time out. Enlighten me please.

Response by SPC David Willis made Mar 2 at 2018 4:50 PM

2018-03-02T16:50:34-05:00

Gotta say I never once encountered any soldiers that fit this description in my unit. Big part of how any soldier turns out will always be leadership. There have been turds through out the history of the military, but good leaders foster good soldiers, bad leaders do not.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 2 at 2018 6:20 PM

2018-03-02T18:20:20-05:00

1. Treat everyone with respect. 2. Demand they meet the standards and enforce those standards all the time. 3. Challenge everyone to train up to take your job. 4.Never mistake compassion for a license to slack off. 5. Make them prove their troubles and them help them to overcome them.

Response by SrA Alan Dirk Scott made Dec 9 at 2018 5:37 PM

2018-12-09T17:37:41-05:00

The lack of military toughness can get themselves and others killed. We need to do what was done in the past. More sleep deprived survival training. Tougher PT requirements for some branches of the military. More training in group cohesion, “don’t get your buddy killed”. Just a few ideas.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Jan 7 at 2019 1:26 PM

2019-01-07T13:26:43-05:00

Fire for effect, send Snuffy and the rest of the malcontents out with the Walk of Shame backs turned to them as they are leaving, Rip the title of Soldier, Marine, Airmen, Sailor from them, cut any rank off of the old school way with a knife. This hand holding crap has gotten us what?

Response by CPT William Hoh made Dec 15 at 2019 2:57 PM

2019-12-15T14:57:47-05:00

Those "soldiers", in my experience, are almost always not truly suffering from PTSD, or other mental disorders CAUSED by the military experience . If you are subject to getting PTSD from Basic/AIT by being yelled at or disciplined, I would argue that you had no business joining the military.

SOME people join the military for the explicit goal of getting VA compensation for life. But what do I know, I was only a physician in the Army.

if you can prove that they are faking, they can be arrested. But it's hard to prove because PTSD is almost entirely based on what they tell you.

Response by MSgt Jim Bumgarner made Jun 15 at 2020 7:26 AM

2020-06-15T07:26:55-04:00

You can't

Response by LTJG Sandra Smith made Jul 18 at 2020 11:35 PM

2020-07-18T23:35:05-04:00

Frankly, I think those 2 concepts are mutually exclusive, and the latter will get more people killed than any enemy in a war, but I'm just an old school Nurse corps officer...

Response by SSG Paul Headlee made Sep 23 at 2020 12:42 PM

2020-09-23T12:42:40-04:00

We're in a rabbit hole from which there is no return, save a war for the general survival of the nation such as World War II. As things are its only going to become more ridiculous. No, you can't help someone you're not willing to lose in the process. Pulling our punches will not permit the necessary changes to take place in new soldiers. Then when they have played the game long enough, there's your new NCO Corps that will train and lead subsequent generations of "warriors".

Response by SGT Herbert Bollum made Sep 23 at 2020 5:03 PM

2020-09-23T17:03:34-04:00

tell them to "suck it up buttercup"

Response by LTJG Sandra Smith made Sep 23 at 2020 11:37 PM

2020-09-23T23:37:09-04:00

You don't, of course. The snowflakes just melt down.

Response by MSG Greg Kelly made Jan 11 at 2021 5:58 AM

2021-01-11T05:58:09-05:00

Well I guess the Liberal military leaders will get what they want. An all sex all equal all the same military. LOL

Response by SGT Scott Henderson made Jul 4 at 2021 3:35 PM

2021-07-04T15:35:38-04:00

You can't "rebuild" something that was most likely non-existent to begin with. The right question is how do you develop it? That depends largely on the individual, and from the 20 year olds I've met recently it didn't look like that's going to be an easy task.

Response by MSG Greg Kelly made Aug 3 at 2021 7:44 PM

2021-08-03T19:44:07-04:00

Yea good luck with that one turning snowflakes into young adults first then turning them into soldiers. Your given a half grown product that have mommy and daddy issues. And the senior leadership from Biden and Miley down are tying your hands trying to make soldiers out of them because of this invented CRT and woke crap.

Response by SGT Ralph McClain made Aug 4 at 2021 4:56 AM

2021-08-04T04:56:48-04:00

They wouldn't have lasted when I was in the army. They got chaptered out real quick don't need a wimp cry baby lazy ass. You're training for war. Do you think they're going to stop a firefight just because you're stressed out. Oh you poor thing would you stop his firefight so you can just unstress yourself right..... Totally different when I was in you either got with a game or you just got your ass killed. Wars hell.

Response by SSG Brian Carpenter made Aug 7 at 2021 2:30 PM

2021-08-07T14:30:13-04:00

So glad I retired way before any of this got so bad. I saw it coming during my BNCOC when fellow NCO's went to our Commadant to " report" Drill Seargents for dropping a trainee in the rain and getting him muddy. It also just happened that most of the Drilks and Instructors were guys I just recently served with as they were all taken out of my Platoon at Ft Carson. So needless to say I thoroughly enjoyed telling them about it when our CSM told them to mind their own training and let the Dtolls mind theirs BWAHAHAHAHA