How do you actually get military doctors to help out?

2019-06-15T09:07:21-04:00

I’ve been going through military doctors for back pain for about two years. It’s progressively getting worse. I’m at the point where I can’t bend anymore without pain. Running causes pain. Sitting causes pain. Laying down causes pain. It is constant in the lower back. I’ve been given meds and several iterations of physical therapy, to include needle therapy and realignment sessions. Recently, I was told that they won’t recommend a MRI because of the cost and they will probably find something wrong and will have to fix it which can cause more problems. I also got a slideshow presentation of how it could be similar to phantom limb syndrome for the pain traveling down my leg. My last doctor visit he asked me what I wanted for a profile and I stated I can push through everything except sit ups. Gave me a 2p on my profile for no sit-ups on pt test and additional exercises. Mainly to avoid med board and because of the current board for SFC. Is there a way or someone I can contact IOT get a different look at my back and different opinions? What would be said advice from those with experience on how to handle this. Next reenlistment is for indef, and if it’s not fixed by then, I’ll gladly take my 214 and get civilian healthcare to hopefully take care of it.

Response by CW5 Jack Cardwell made Jun 15 at 2019 9:11 AM

2019-06-15T09:11:46-04:00

You can go to a civilian doctor, he might find something the military doctors missed but you will have to pay.

Response by MSG Robert Conrad made Jun 15 at 2019 12:08 PM

2019-06-15T12:08:04-04:00

It would be expected to be a pretty routine diagnostic sequence before an MRI, xrays, EMG study for most spine injuries, conservative treatment such as message, or physical therapy would also be used. I would just ask for a consultation with a neurologist.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2019 12:37 PM

2019-06-15T12:37:54-04:00

Sounds like you have a ruptured or bulging disc in between your L5 and S1. There’s stretches you can do to alleviate the pain. I have the exact same pain and stretching really helps.

Response by SFC Marc W. made Jun 15 at 2019 1:39 PM

2019-06-15T13:39:19-04:00

"Recently, I was told that they won’t recommend a MRI because of the cost and they will probably find something wrong and will have to fix it which can cause more problems" Is completely the wrong answer and deserves a by name call out through open-door policy, ICE complaint, etc. I would also even recommend a letter to your Congressman, because them avoiding the real problem could very well be making it much worse.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2019 2:03 PM

2019-06-15T14:03:31-04:00

As a tricare recipient you are always authorized a second opinion. Most soldiers don't realize this because their PA is their primary care and you can't go outside of them. But you are entitled to demand a second opinion. If that doesn't work you can contact a patient advocate or the hospital ombudsman who can move things on your behalf.
Also, if you have crippling pain and you ETS, foregoing an MEB, you're making a long term decision based on short term circumstances. You can overcome the resistance of your provider with time. You can't go back and med board once you separate. Don't fall for that, "ETS and the VA will take care of it" line either. When you're walking away with a medical retirement and a disability check as opposed to ETSing with nothing but an award, you'll appreciate the advice.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 15 at 2019 4:47 PM

2019-06-15T16:47:14-04:00

How many years do you have in?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 15 at 2019 5:39 PM

2019-06-15T17:39:19-04:00

It sounds to me that you have a permanent profile.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2019 12:18 AM

2019-06-16T00:18:23-04:00

Go to the Patient Administration Division (PAD). They can assist you with getting a MRI and with getting your medical needs met. The PAD office works for you the patient. Good luck to you....

Response by PO2 Christina "Jian" Phillips made Jun 16 at 2019 6:08 AM

2019-06-16T06:08:42-04:00

This sounds like my case after an SIJ injury 14 years ago. I had to get out and get acupuncture outside. The military just wants you fit for duty IE if not in field fit for PFA/PRT. If that means pain yeah.....so I'd say try other means such as massage. Not sure rules for active duty but if got approved I'm sure outside care could be better. Without pain meds I wouldn't have lasted to get out. I was in 3 mile club. 2 times a year I suffered pain so I could get real care. No surgery and now I can do many things(though I avoid situps, running, and ellipticals; they aggravate it). The situps are evil for back problems.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2019 1:27 PM

2019-06-16T13:27:23-04:00

I'm sorry to read about your pain and emphasize with your experience. Since you posted to a large forum, I have three thoughts you should consider: chronic pain without a primary cause or description of a surgical requirement = new job. However, you don't want MEB because you're up for a promotion. Will a promotion solve your low back pain? If you cannot continue to work in your MOS and/or the Army then you should be referred for MEB consideration to see the rest of your options.

You are certainly eligible (don't like the word entitled) for a second opinion. It will most likely be within the military healthcare system because we have lots of providers. Similar to if you worked for IBM and didn't like their medical network, you could pay to see someone else out of their network. this isn't a military problem, it's a healthcare system problem.

It sounds like you have had multiple opinions so be careful what you wish for. MRI for chronic cases will most likely lead to surgery and there is no surgery for pain. We all know people who wish they never had "that surgery".

Response by CPO Robert (Mac) McGovern made Jun 17 at 2019 8:23 PM

2019-06-17T20:23:43-04:00

If I were you, I would seek a second opinion from a Pain Specialist. What you describe is remarkable for Spinal Stenosis where the nerve bundle coming out from the spine is narrowed or pinched causing the problems you are experiencing. Without the benefit of MRI, a diagnosis cannot be made through simple palpitation and the cost of the MRI should not be an issue as far as your health is concerned. The doctor you are seeing cannot diagnose back problems and make make statements such as these without medical support.

Get a referral to see a Neurologist or Pain Specialist to evaluate the pain you are experiencing I wish you the best.

Response by SPC William Rogers made Jun 18 at 2019 9:27 AM

2019-06-18T09:27:11-04:00

Tell them the PX is out of Motrin?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2019 9:47 AM

2019-06-18T09:47:40-04:00

I was mobilized to Ft Benning back in 05-07. Hurt my shoulder playing volleyball of all things. Apparently since I'm 6'3" the commander wanted me to play on his team for the commander's cup tourney. So I go to TMC and for 18 months they keep telling me it's just tendonitis and throw motrin at me. Finally get off orders and go to my family DR. Ortho referral, torn rotator cuff. and since it hadn't been treated, developed bone spurs that wore a groove in the bottom of my collar bone. they had to cut nearly 2" off the end of my collar bone. 2 surgeries to try to fix it and I still wound up with P2 profile and limited range of motion.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2019 12:27 AM

2019-06-20T00:27:07-04:00

I had a doc jumping through hoops. I have (had) a bad back. He kept trying to ouch narcotic pain killers on me. I refused. He would then bend over backwards to help me.

Another doc, I had cancer. He took me on as a personal mission to make sure I got the care i needed

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2019 9:15 AM

2019-06-20T09:15:32-04:00

I’ll give u my two cents from actual experience. U have to fight them in this and request referral to pain mgmt. if they don’t oblige, use open door, ice IG etc. it took me 5 years of lower back pain to finally get a neurostimulator implant in my back which took 80% or more of back pain away. It really masks it but to not feel it is awesome. I don’t do SU anymore and now working back to running for APFT. Find the right person and they will take care of you. You also have a right to change PCMs. My back pain started in 07. It took 5 years to get into pain Mgmt. Much like u several rounds of meds PT etc. then once i was finally in pain Mgmt it took another five years before i got my stimulator. So keep at it. If u have any questions hit me up and I’ll answer whatever i can from my experience.

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Jun 20 at 2019 9:37 AM

2019-06-20T09:37:34-04:00

1. Take care of it while in service!!!!!!!
2. Get a second, third, fourth opinion!!!!!!!
3. Re-enlist indef!!!!!
4. Your radiating pain on your leg might be sciatic nerve pain.
5. Demand to get a MRI done. Is pretty much the only way to identify deformed (herniated) disks IOT to get proper treatment.
6. If it hurt go back to sick call, or the ER if required.

Why am I suggesting the aforementioned? Because I went thru the same. From 2009 until my retirement in 2016. Physical therapy, narcotics (which made me to tell my PCM to go pound sand) Because it sucked so much I was referred to a civilian pain management clinic and eventually an epidural injection was delivered; 90% improvement.

Put your fight gloves on and talk with whoever is the patient representative at your local medical facility; take care of yourself.

AND MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS DOCUMENTED ON YOUR MEDICAL RECORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2019 11:58 AM

2019-06-20T11:58:49-04:00

You need to see a new provider. My provider took care of me and wasn’t concerned with costs

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 20 at 2019 4:06 PM

2019-06-20T16:06:12-04:00

Sometimes the decisions are made for you. Hang in there.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Jun 20 at 2019 6:22 PM

2019-06-20T18:22:25-04:00

Tell them, don't ask, for a referral to Orthopedic surgeon, screw the family doc...they don't know bupkis!!! That way you will get an MRI, a good read on the problem, and if you need or can fix it or if it is pain management.

Response by CPT Brad Wilson made Jun 21 at 2019 3:12 PM

2019-06-21T15:12:47-04:00

The Guard must treat these thing differently. I had the same problem couldn’t do sit-ups because of a back problem from my first deployment. My Medical Review Board ordered an MRI so they could identify the problem. Turned out it was 2 herniated discs Sit-ups and long distance running aggravated it but I deployed to Hurricane Katrina wore a vest and helmet walked all over the place with all my battle rattle with no problem so the Board determined that since I could do my job it wasn’t worth the cost of surgery to allow me to do sit-ups and run in shorts ant a T-shirt. They gave me a permanent profile on sit-ups and the run I served about 8 more years and deployed to Iraq with that profile

Response by SSG Shavonde Chase made Jun 22 at 2019 8:11 PM

2019-06-22T20:11:33-04:00

Who is the they you are referring to in reference to the MRI?

Response by SrA Phillip Pentzer made Jun 22 at 2019 9:31 PM

2019-06-22T21:31:01-04:00

Never once had an issue and I have multiple conditions ! I think most just repeat what a few experience.

Response by SPC Vonnie Jones made Jun 23 at 2019 10:24 AM

2019-06-23T10:24:15-04:00

I am not a doc, but did you realize the running causes more problems for the back? Did you want to know how to help the pain or how to get treatment? First water exercise is good for back issue. Is the water run it will help stretch the spine. Run in derp water not shallow shallow you get 50% inpact, deep no impact. Also yoga and qi gong and tai chi are good therapy for thy he back. Cant believe your doc said those things to you abou mri. MRI is best to dx back pain, and if something more is found he needs to tteat those issues to. What if you have herniated disc? He needs to treat the problem. You need a secon opinion or new doc. Yes MRI are expensive but so is surgery. I think it is unethical to withhold test and treatment because of cost. Also you can take your xray to an orthopedic surgeon or neurologist for a second opinion out side of military. Prepare to pay out of pocket if need be (noithing is more important than your health. Your doc was right an MRI might open up morr health concerns if it does then he needs to address it (I have never heard of such), tell him to do his job. Which is to do no harm. Bottom line is he needs to be reported after you get a new physician. Feel better

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2019 10:08 PM

2019-06-25T22:08:06-04:00

"Recently, I was told that they won’t recommend a MRI because of the cost and they will probably find something wrong and will have to fix it which can cause more problems."
I'd fill out an ICE card (which goes to their MEDCOM unit leadership) and go straight to your command team. Any 1SG & CPT worth their salt would fight for you to get treatment to get back in the fight. My two cents.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Jun 26 at 2019 12:05 PM

2019-06-26T12:05:42-04:00

Response by CPO Tom Bernard made Jul 11 at 2019 12:19 AM

2019-07-11T00:19:17-04:00

First and foremost: You MUST see a specialist. The patient experience on the Specialty Clinic side is AMAZING compared to the Primary Care side.
In my vast experience as a medical patient (my medical record was four volumes thick, the same as amputees I met through the journey) who ended up with a Medical Separation after 12 years of faithful service, you must see a specialist for every problem that isn’t adequately healed or addressed. If the condition requires daily pain medication for long term (like forever), then DEMAND TO SEE A SPECIALIST!
In this case, you need to be seen at the Ortho clinic (where the orthopedic surgeons are at).
I had pain in my pelvis (I though it was my lower back, but turned out to be my SI joint), and the most painful thing for me was waking up in bed and then raising my leg to slide it over the edge to stand up. Terrible pain, that only got worse as time went on. I saw a primary care doc, who ordered X-rays, and diagnosed me with Osteoarthritis of the hip, prescribed Mobic twice a day, and that was it.
Years later, after having many different primary care doctors see me for physicals, etc., and every one of them complaining that I was on Mobic because “that stuff is $2.00 a pill!” (so yes, I believe your doc complained about the cost of an MRI), I eventually (VERY long story) ended up at a Rheumatologist (joint specialist, and if you have arthritis, you need to be seen at Rheum!), who said, “Nobody your age has osteoarthritis. It must be something else.” After many tests, including MRIs, I was diagnosed with Ankylosing Spondylitis, and prescribed Humira, which I took weekly (injection). So I went from $700 per year of Mobic, which only treated the symptom, and not the immune disorder that was attacking my joint (permanent damage was caused by “manning-up” and toughing it out, and deteriorated joints do NOT heal themselves, and there is no “SI joint” replacement surgery, so I’m stuck with it for life), which caused the inflammation, which caused the pain, to $25,000 per year (back in 2008, anyway) of the correct medicine that actually dealt with the root cause, so now there is relatively very little pain, and the disease has not progressed up my spine to fuse the bones together, which is what will happen without the medicine.
Oh, and not a single specialist has said a word about the cost of my treatment, and I’ve been seen by the VA since 2010, with over $250,000 (2008 cost, anyway) of that medicine injected into my body by now.
Never be afraid to see a specialist for anything that doesn’t get fixed quickly, and permanently. And some day, you will get out, and you will WISH that you had more stuff in your medical record.
Good luck, and I hope you find the true cause, and don’t just settle for treating the symptoms.

Response by MSG Gary Eaker made Jul 31 at 2019 7:46 PM

2019-07-31T19:46:26-04:00

"Pushing through everything except SU" is, IMO a mistake. It may be that your doc is avoiding the MRI due to his perception that your promotion is more important to you than your health. You said you were told "they won’t recommend a MRI because ... they will probably find something wrong and will have to fix it which can cause more problems."

I spent 24 years working for the AMEDD, and never once did I talk to a doctor who avoided a treatment because of the cost. However, I frequently saw doctors avoid a treatment, because they didn't want to cause trouble for the Soldier. If you lead your doctor to believe that you just want to get by with the minimum, because your career is more important to you than your long-term health, then they will honor that, and they will avoid diagnostic tests where they might find something wrong that "they will have to fix because it will cause more problems" -- for you. It is never a problem for the doc to fix something. That's why they went into medicine. That is what they want to do.

I suggest you go back to your doc and make it clear that your long term health is more important to you than passing a PT test and/or getting promoted, and that you are willing to follow his advice to get this fixed no matter what. Once he understands that you are willing to face the consequences of possibly finding a larger problem (which could very well lead to an MEB), I suspect you will see him change his tune.

Response by SPC Jeff Stassin made Aug 2 at 2021 3:11 AM

2021-08-02T03:11:52-04:00

Good civilian insurance for a $1000 a month Alex.
I was in the middle of med boarding in 2014, when they decided to go ahead and out process me without finishing. I've been fighting V.A. doctors since returning from Iraq in 09. I have the exact same lumbar back issues, along with thorasic and severe cervical spine issues with pinching nerves down my left side. .....
What comes with a price and the furthest from government control?..... That my final answer Alex. Or rather. SSG ... Ps... Save ALL of that paper work make triplicates or more and hide in 3 different places. Especially if you still in.