How do you address obvious double standards in your ranks?

2016-07-25T12:41:59-04:00

Double standards could be anything from one leader not having to pull duty over another or one leader not receiving punishment for a major issue.

Response by Sgt Chris Lima made Jul 25 at 2016 12:43 PM

2016-07-25T12:43:51-04:00

You worry about yourself.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Jul 25 at 2016 1:04 PM

2016-07-25T13:04:29-04:00

That's life, its the same in the civilian world, suck it up and do your job the best you can and someone will notice.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2016 1:24 PM

2016-07-25T13:24:36-04:00

It definitely helps when you have leaders up and down the chain (NCO's, Officers, etc.) out there and doing tasks with the Joe's as it deters from toxic leadership, complacency etc.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2016 1:49 PM

2016-07-25T13:49:56-04:00

Though it can be a double edged sword, I call it out when I see it.

Response by CMSgt Mike Esser made Jul 25 at 2016 3:58 PM

2016-07-25T15:58:21-04:00

Peer pressure, one on one with 1st sergeant in extreme circumstances the IG......other venues Senior enlisted council......If we were not so mamby pamby these days....blanket party

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Jul 25 at 2016 6:01 PM

2016-07-25T18:01:56-04:00

If it really bothers you to that point, then use the open door policy. I'm going to roll with a few of the answers below that will end up being "stay in your lane, and take care of your troops". No one has to like the answer, but if you spend your time thinking about CPT Schumckateli and what he did, how much time are you dedicating to bettering yourself and your Soldiers? BTW if the troops see you undermining superiors, rest easy it'll be your turn soon.

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2016 6:09 PM

2016-07-25T18:09:06-04:00

Please note im not here saying why can they do that its i saying what do i tell soldiers when seniors and officers can break regulations or even laws and lower enlisted get their careers ended or article 15s for the same?

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Jul 25 at 2016 6:40 PM

2016-07-25T18:40:46-04:00

All depends if I am involved. If I am directly involved, I don't let it happen. If it is way outside my lane, I ignore it. If in between those two, I try to use my rank and position to influence fair treatment.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jul 25 at 2016 8:17 PM

2016-07-25T20:17:38-04:00

Go ask your IG or JAG why there is a double standard.

Response by Col Dona Marie Iversen made Jul 25 at 2016 9:24 PM

2016-07-25T21:24:36-04:00

As a relatively new Capt, there was an incident during a deployment that I was involved with at an early stage, then I left and the incident got out of hand. Upon return I addressed it & corrected with those (Es & Os) involved. I brought it to the attention of the camp C/O, as an FYI only, did not want the rumor mill to explode. C/O said he would punish those involved, I respectfully disagreed and told him I deescalated it and it would never happen again. His comment was, don't worry I like you, you are not in trouble. My response was, oh yes I am if the others are . Nothing ever came of it.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2016 11:47 PM

2016-07-25T23:47:10-04:00

PVT Private RallyPoint Member I guess I would first ask, what double standards are you referring too? What have you seen that drove you to ask this question?

Response by SPC Mason Mullins made Jul 26 at 2016 8:17 AM

2016-07-26T08:17:05-04:00

I would love to say call it out, but that can put you in an awkward spot. In the 6 years I have been in, I've seen the double standard applied in situations ranging from simple details, to promotions, to drug selling and abuse. Its one one the unfortunate realities of the military. Its always been that way, and I honestly can't forsee it changing.

Response by SPC Tom Clark made Jul 26 at 2016 9:59 AM

2016-07-26T09:59:02-04:00

Let's start with Hillary Clinton who needs to be punished for her perjury even though her traitorous treatment of our nation's secrets.

Response by SGT Josh Suchoski made Jul 26 at 2016 10:05 AM

2016-07-26T10:05:38-04:00

Let me let you in on a bit of a secret. Life is not fair. Sometimes there is a double standard for a reason. If you notice some soldier getting called out on something, and no one else is being called out for the same infraction, that soldier may be in need of special training to shape his/ her attitude, attention to detail etc. There is no such thing as equal in the army. Neither should there be. If one soldier is the first to volunteer for extra duty, and is always the one getting things done, don't be surprised if the NCO's overlook some small items. If you are a lazy D-bag and are getting called out for everything, perhaps you had better check yourself and police up your own bad attitude. You will be surprised at how things change for you. And yes, this does mean that you have to get up off your third point of contact.

Response by TSgt Gwen Walcott made Jul 26 at 2016 10:28 AM

2016-07-26T10:28:49-04:00

Buck Up
Press On

Response by SGT S.D. Setzer made Jul 26 at 2016 10:38 AM

2016-07-26T10:38:56-04:00

I truly feel that everyone will experience incidents that fit our definition of a double standard. It sucks when someone in a leadership position is placed in a position to have to explain or rationalize these events to subordinates.

Consider this when you have a soldier come to you and ask why Commander Humptyfranz is not being "tarred and feathered" over any type of infraction. How does Private Woppinnaki KNOW that Humptyfranz committed the infraction? 9 times out of 10 Pvt. Woppinnaki does not KNOW. He HEARD he THINKS "they" said and so on. But the good private does not KNOW. Nor does Private Woppinnaki KNOW that Humptyfranz hasn't been or isn't about to be pilloried, flayed, gouged and eviscerated again the private does not KNOW.

Now, do not be mistaken, the ugliness of double standards can and do exist. Double standards, even the appearance of double standards can wreak havoc on morale. But MOST TIMES these reports and questions of double standards are rooted in hearsay, rumors and class envy.

Now lets just say that it is all true. Commander Humptyfranz DID break into the medicinal stores of "Pappy Johns Spring Elixar" and was caught with his drawers around his ankles in a compromising yet passionate embrace with the local mullah's favorite goat on the night after Private Schmuckatelli was found proclaiming HIS love for the mullah's favorite goat. All things being EQUAL you would have to say they both would get the same punishment or lack thereof. But are all things REALLY EQUAL? Certainly the assumption is they are equal in that they are both members of the armed services, assumed to be males, and have a thing for four legged mammals when under the influence of "hunch punch". That's where the equality ends. The good captain has years of valuable experience, technical and tactical expertise, and command authority. The private is a hard worker, young, and of great future value to the service. Any punishment meted out could not be equal. Article 15 (if even applicable to officers) would have different impact and effect for both. Official letters of reprimand wouldn't mean a thing to Schmuckatelli but could be a career ender for Woppinnaki. So the only "standard" here is their like infractions.

YOUR ROLE, Specialist Gaudette, is not to try to make those appointed under you FEEL better about PERCEIVED injustices. YOUR ROLE is to discourage others from advancing information that is not FACTUALLY BASED. Educate your troops that the "Real World" is NOT as MTV portrayed it and that "what is sauce for the goose" in not always sauce for the gander. One of the basic premises of LEADERSHIP as I remember is that a LEADER "Knows his troops" and knows that each individual responds individually to their own set of motivators. What is punishment for one may not be punishment for another and what may appear to be a death sentence to one man may be a walk in the park for the next. Don't fall into the trap of trying to explain to people their own misperceptions. You will NEVER SUCCEED. Present YOUR view as the alternative perception and the rest is on them. You will hear a lot of "well I think" or "I feel" tell them it's o.k. to have THEIR thoughts and feelings but to present them as FACTS or expecting others to adapt to personal thoughts, beliefs, feelings or standards is ineffective and damaging.

NUF' SED !!!!

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2016 10:40 AM

2016-07-26T10:40:18-04:00

SPC Jason Gaudette, I must say, I am surprised by the responses you have received. In my, young, enlisted days I would have mentioned my concerns to my First Sergeant. I would have been terrified of negative results, but my First Sergeant would have shielded me by not mentioning my name as he spoke of the perception of a double standard. He would have the ear of the commander and would mention it as a concern between the officer and enlisted ranks. The Commander would have addressed the concern in the manner he chose as appropriate. As the Commander, I would be at fault for this perception. Real or not, negative perceptions undermine good order and discipline. The mission must come first. It would be incumbent upon me to clean my house. I would start by learning the issues. I would finish by enforcing the standards. If your unit doesn't work like this, I am sorry. If you have this sense of fairness and equality... rise up in the ranks and make a difference. You can become the change. Don't be discouraged, use your chain of command and become a meaningful part of that chain. Be a cheerleader among your troops and take care of them. Be sure to head the words of SFC John Long though.

Response by SPC Kari Grove Wright made Jul 26 at 2016 12:08 PM

2016-07-26T12:08:05-04:00

I fought for the regulations to be followed in my unit. I used my chain of command, they spoke and nothing changed. I used IG, I contacted Congress and Senate. The small issues changed with talking to the 1sg and CSM. The big issues I paid a huge price for, but I knew that going into it. With investigations from Congress, Senate and IG things changed, those high ranks got Article 15's, relief of duty for cause and the Major got 5
years prison time, they swept the captains wrong doing under the rug, after he hired an attorney along with another E7 doing the same. I didn't see the change, but I gave my unit the opportunity to benefit from what was right. I believe they waited as they didn't want others to know an E4 was able to shed the light. IG had told me that is was to change a specific day, but it didn't happen until I ETSed.
As stated before many will get special treatment. We had the same issues with dui's. I hope you can find a way that works for you and your team. Know that you need to weigh the pros and cons for what you do.

Response by SFC Ian Lumgair made Jul 26 at 2016 1:34 PM

2016-07-26T13:34:12-04:00

I'm retired, but it depended on the issue. I tried to lead by example. So if my troops did something stupid then they paid for it regardless, but when the issue was serious as in UCMJ or weight control for example, you know real career endears. I saw how the application of the of regulation or UCMJ was not being applied in a fare and equitable manner. I defended my troops and my self ruthlessly. I was the first to go to IG even have started a number of congressional inquiries in behave of my troopers. i believe that this hurt my career but more to the point if the regulation applies it applies to everyone. period end of statement. The more rank I got the more the bigger nightmare I was!

Response by SCPO Joseph Salacki made Jul 26 at 2016 1:43 PM

2016-07-26T13:43:32-04:00

a-ok

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2016 2:02 PM

2016-07-26T14:02:33-04:00

that depends. Good leaders know when to cut a person some slack as opposed to ruining their career. Does the person deserve a break? Here is a perfect example. I was UA Monday morning swooping down from Syracuse to North Carolina. (way out of bounds for a 48) Third time in 6 months. I rolled in at 3:pm. I knew I was going to get Office Hours. (Article 15, Non-Judicial Punishment, before your commanding officer). Before I went in The Top said to ask the CO for extra duty to make up the time . Right before the CO was about to fine me heavily and restrict me, I ask for extra duty. He looked at me for a minute and ask me "who told you to say that" .I said the Top. He hesitated and gave me 30 day extra duty, 3 hours a day. No fine no restriction. I was a good Marine, I just wanted to see my girl and get laid. He cut me some slack. The Top didn't help everyone nor did the CO have a sympathetic ear for Marines who to drunk to Fall-in or got in fights and spent a night in civilian jail or wise asses. Yeah it's a double standard but it's been part of the military all over the world for hundreds of years. Favoritism is another story and hurts a unit.

Response by 1LT Michael Fahnestock made Jul 26 at 2016 2:42 PM

2016-07-26T14:42:39-04:00

The question is a very valid one and one that is impossible completely. The same kind of double standard exists in the 'real-world' within employment positions. The key is for the leader/commander to work for consistency. When assuming a command soldiers or workers questions their leaders methods. That is natural. Where the problem arises is when the leader fails to execute the same kind of discipline, motivation techniques equally to soldiers or employees. As an Officer and post military, teacher, coach and official, I have found that is the one aspect students, soldiers, athletes, and coaches respect from the individual in the leadership position. Too often I have worked with soldiers, students, athletes, and coaches that feel they know the 'best' way for me to lead, each, coach, or call fouls. I'm very comfortable after any situation when I know I handled the situation that arouse in a manner that I have handled a similar situation. The individuals challenging my double standard of leading, teaching, coaching or calling fouls, have to accept that the individual in authority has the final control of the situation. I know all of the leadership positions I have held I have worked on a kind of consistency that those I oversee can expect from me. This leadership methodology will never eliminate double standards,, but they will bring forth a kind of standard that a subordinate will come to understand and accept.

Response by Sgt Chuck Stewart made Jul 26 at 2016 5:08 PM

2016-07-26T17:08:36-04:00

Start writing it down, when and where. Once you have enough evidence take it to the person doing it. If it don't change and be sure your complaint is not something petty because it can backfire on you and it may be something that you just have to suck it up and be a man or soldier. You can take it to your chain of command. Don't abuse the chain of command

Response by SGT Alejandro Sarandrea made Jul 26 at 2016 6:28 PM

2016-07-26T18:28:01-04:00

Get promoted! Step into those positions that can effect the necessary changes and implement policy and decisions that keep the standard at one.

Response by SGT Alejandro Sarandrea made Jul 26 at 2016 6:29 PM

2016-07-26T18:29:21-04:00

Don't become what you hate about the service.

Response by SSG Brian Hall made Jul 26 at 2016 6:57 PM

2016-07-26T18:57:29-04:00

Books have been written about the subject. Do a search on Brian Hall at http://www.authorhouse.com. Good read.

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Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2016 7:55 PM

2016-07-26T19:55:23-04:00

I would just caution people on jumping to conclusions. Just because you didn't see the punishment does not mean it did not occur. It is standard practice to transfer an individual out of the unit when a serious infraction occurs. With the army bureaucracy being what it is, serious adverse administrative action takes a while to process; and courts-martial even longer. In the meantime, the SM is drawing pay and coming to work; so it looks as if nothing is happening. Behind the scenes, there are events like show-cause boards and Article 32 hearings happening that no one sees. The command cannot violate that individual's privacy by broadcasting a status to the organization.

Response by MSG GregoryT Majewski made Jul 26 at 2016 10:07 PM

2016-07-26T22:07:34-04:00

I retired in 1988. Way back then the ranks my field where will blended socially. The problem was the officer ranks. It was way out of proportion. I served my country as a BABY KILLER. 58,479 service members died for their country. Now all services are HERO's

Response by LTC Jesse Edwards made Jul 27 at 2016 7:33 AM

2016-07-27T07:33:26-04:00

I don't vote for the leader that doesn't receive punishment for a major event.
Even if she's a woman.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2016 7:57 AM

2016-07-27T07:57:41-04:00

Sad to say, it has become a norm in the Military. This career is starting to look a lot like the civilian cut throat sector.

Response by Cpl Michael Crowley made Jul 27 at 2016 12:37 PM

2016-07-27T12:37:38-04:00

Sometimes what may seem like a double standard is actually a calculation for the cost of disgracing a champion over a single lapse of judgement. If it isn't merely a single lapse, than it could be favoritism and needs to be squashed for the good of the team, unit, country and even the individual. Sometimes the benefit of discretion outweighs the cost of losing an ace card. Other times it's corruption and needs to be dealt with swiftly and decisively. In my opinion, this topic is lacking necessary variables.

Response by CW3 Doyle Frost made Jul 27 at 2016 3:31 PM

2016-07-27T15:31:35-04:00

Take it up the chain, informally if possible, from your squad leader on up, unless that person is the one responsible for the problem. Then, as the Colonel says, go to your first shirt. If nothing is there for a recourse, there is always one last resort, the I.G. Hate to even mention that, but have seen it used before, and it wasn't pleasant, for anyone concerned. We had a problem like that in Germany, and it was brought ot my attention. C.O. told me to handle it, and he would back me. Company formation, all there, including C.O., X.O., platoon leaders, and platoon sergeants. Everyone got the same message, and the person bringing it to my attention was not mentioned. Afterwards, we had a seperate meeting in the company briefing room, of all the senior staff, and the C.O. reinforced my message with them. That problem was never brought up again.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2016 6:59 PM

2016-07-27T18:59:38-04:00

speaking now as an IG, we see this complaint a lot. While talking with commands and leaders we always tell them that issues like this can start from communication. It doesn't matter if there was a wrong committed, it matters that there is a perception of unfair treatment.
When someone comes to you with a complaint and you investigate it (as a commander or as a leader), take the time to back brief the interested party. That is simple but overlooked A LOT.
Consider that I brought a legit problem to you as the commander and you did your very best to investigate and make the right changes but I didn't know... All I saw was everything return to normal and I feel I have been overlooked. Of course you can't and shouldn't tell the complainant what you investigated, the results and the consequences - they're a third party. But follow up with them even if it's just to say, "we closed the loop on that; thank you for brining it to my attention."