How do you feel about religious (yes, Christian) expression in the military?

2015-12-05T08:49:29-05:00

Take the time to read this short article and let the rest of our RallyPoint community know your thoughts on religious expression in our armed forces. The author opines that US Air Force Academy players praying in the end zone before a football game is taboo - and reflects a much larger problem of religious expression in the military. While cadets don't necessarily reflect the military establishment as a whole, this does stimulate an excellent conversation. Do you agree? If you're the supervisor of a unit, how would you respond? Ultimately, is this an authorized activity under UCMJ?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-b-wilkerson/religion-in-iraq-syria-af_b_8711724.html

Religion in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan -- and at the U.S. Air Force Academy?

Any U.S. citizen who believes there is not a serious problem in the U.S. Armed Forces with fundamentalist, evangelical Christianity, must be, as I often remark to my students when I describe some particularly egregious and otherwise inexplicable failing, "smoking some good stuff."

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2015 8:58 AM

2015-12-05T08:58:18-05:00

Great Story!!! Go Air Force - Beat Somebody

Response by MAJ Alvin B. made Dec 5 at 2015 9:02 AM

2015-12-05T09:02:34-05:00

I have mixed feelings. Having read the article I do not fully agree with the author. The fact that a group kneel in prayer does not in itself indicate that is evangelical or fundamentalist. It does happen after virtually every college and pro football game, though many broadcasters do not show it on TV.

As to devotees of other faiths expressing their thanks in public, it would probably be surprising at first. However, I am not sure it would happen given the differences in the way thanks is expressed, and the differences in belief over free will vice predetermined outcome.

As to the UCMJ angle, I do not believe so, however I suspect it could be argued it depends. The military is a unique environment and faith has always played a strong role in that environment. Dating back for centuries, if not eons before there was an American military or an Amrcian Nation.

There has never been a time in the history of the American military tradition that has not Included public displays of faith.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Dec 5 at 2015 9:29 AM

2015-12-05T09:29:06-05:00

The article is thought provoking. The author presents some great points, though I don't necessarily agree with his conclusions.

Simply put, Religious Expression is a Right, as an Individual, and can be exercised Collectively. That said, the Government's place in it should be neutral. It's a PRIVATE matter, as opposed to a PUBLIC matter. the USAFA issue pushes this into the Public realm, or at least gives it the perception of being so.

On a discussion I had last night, on this forum, another active duty service member called Islam a Cult, and went on a diatribe about the different. If he were my Commander, or in any position of authority above me (while I was still in active duty), I'd be "popping red smoke" immediately because I don't think he could separate his personal biases from his professional duties. That is something I NEVER experienced during active duty. It just never came up.

Over the last several years however, we've seen more and more instances where "subtle" views are being pushed. Not everyone ascribes to the same belief system, and that's okay, but when we refuse to let an Airman re-enlist because he won't say "so help me God." on the reenlistment oath (which is not required of all Services), I think the article has "grains of truth."

Response by MAJ Hugh Blanchard made Dec 5 at 2015 11:20 AM

2015-12-05T11:20:44-05:00

If this is a voluntary activity, I don't see the problem. The U.S. was founded by people who did not want to be forced into a particular state-sponsored religion, e.g., the Church of England. They did not come to America to prohibit ANY public expression of religious belief, they came here so they would not have to adopt a religious faith imposed on them by a dictatorial government. The notion that there should be a prohibition of religious expression in public is nonsense. If you are offended by prayer, then don't watch..you don't have the right to ban others from expressing their beliefs.

Response by SGT Christopher Churilla made Dec 5 at 2015 12:14 PM

2015-12-05T12:14:08-05:00

Read the article, the part that troubles me the most is the quote by a player who says there is pressure to participate in order to be considered part of the team. Exercise of religion is the only activity in the military that is optional--or at least it's supposed to be, but this is setting up these people to expect this sort of thing when they enter the active force, and that is an EO incident waiting to happen.

Response by TSgt John Temblador, PI, CIPA made Dec 5 at 2015 3:50 PM

2015-12-05T15:50:16-05:00

Response by TSgt John Temblador, PI, CIPA made Dec 5 at 2015 3:50 PM

2015-12-05T15:50:37-05:00

Response by PO2 Peter Klein made Dec 5 at 2015 4:00 PM

2015-12-05T16:00:58-05:00

Keep it to yourself!

Response by SSG Stephen Arnold made Dec 5 at 2015 6:16 PM

2015-12-05T18:16:40-05:00

Allowing the free expression of religion does not equate to endorsement of that religion. Suggesting that it does is disingenuous at best.

Did he seriously compare evangelicals to the Taliban? He lost all credibility at that point.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Dec 5 at 2015 8:57 PM

2015-12-05T20:57:09-05:00

Those who want to pray should be allowed to pray, whether in public or in private. I just retired from an agency where the head of it declared that there would be no praying allowed at any state function so as to avoid offending those of other religions or the non-religious. The wardens passed this on down and the response of the staff, particularly the lower ranking staff, was to ignore it. Any issues were handled amongst themselves, and I never had one complaint either way brought to me.

Response by Capt Michael Halpin made Dec 6 at 2015 8:50 AM

2015-12-06T08:50:05-05:00

We don't give up our free exercise of religion rights when we enter the military, in fact it is an essential part of fulfilling our duty. The USAF has completely surrendered to the anti-Christians bigots like Mikey Weinstein. When he says jump the USAF Chief of Staff says "How high?" The problem is not religion in the military, it is the anti-Christian bigotry of Mikey Wienstein, ACLU, Freedom from Religion and other such KKK-like groups.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Dec 6 at 2015 9:14 AM

2015-12-06T09:14:01-05:00

If prayer in the armed forces of this country was good enough for George Washington, it is good enough for me. We have a real issue with understanding our history and how we got here and the vision of our founders. Prayer would have never been compulsory as all had the freedom of conscience but for the Air Force Academy to act like this might be an issue demonstrates the lack of historical awareness even in those hallowed halls.
_________________________________________________________________________

The Prayer at Valley Forge is a depiction of one of these moments of intense prayer. It is said that a local British loyalist named Isaac Potts came across Washington praying in the woods one cold, wintry day during that terrible winter of 1777 and 1778. The Potts family owned a local iron forge, to which the name Valley Forge referred, to distinguish it from other forges in the area.

The Pottses were Quakers and loyalists to the British cause. Isaac himself was apparently not connected with the forge at this time, but owned and operated a local grist mill. All the grain that was processed at this grist mill was requisitioned by the Continental Army during the Valley Forge encampment. In addition, General Washington actually stayed in the very home of Isaac Potts during the Valley Forge encampment, requisitioning it as his personal headquarters. Click here to read a personal account of a visit to Valley Forge and the Isaac Potts home from one of Revolutionary War and Beyond's visitors.
There are some conflicting accounts and questions about the accuracy of the story of Isaac Potts, George Washington and the prayer at Valley Forge. The following account is taken from the "Diary and Remembrances" of the Rev. Nathaniel Randolph Snowden, an ordained Presbyterian minister and graduate of Princeton with a degree from Dickinson College, who was born in 1770 and died in 1851. Rev. Snowden stated:
"I knew personally the celebrated Quaker Potts who saw Gen'l Washington alone in the woods at prayer. I got it from himself, myself. Weems mentioned it in his history of Washington, but I got it from the man myself, as follows:
"I was riding with him (Mr. Potts) in Montgomery County, Penn'a near to the Valley Forge, where the army lay during the war of ye Revolution. Mr. Potts was a Senator in our State and a Whig. I told him I was agreeably surprised to find him a friend to his country as the Quakers were mostly Tories. He said, 'It was so and I was a rank Tory once, for I never believed that America c'd proceed against Great Britain whose fleets and armies covered the land and ocean, but something very extraordinary converted me to the Good Faith!" "What was that," I inquired? 'Do you see that woods, and that plain. It was about a quarter of a mile off from the place we were riding, as it happened.' 'There,' said he, 'laid the army of Washington. It was a most distressing time of ye war, and all were for giving up the Ship but that great and good man. In that woods pointing to a close in view, I heard a plaintive sound as, of a man at prayer. I tied my horse to a sapling and went quietly into the woods and to my astonishment I saw the great George Washington on his knees alone, with his sword on one side and his cocked hat on the other. He was at Prayer to the God of the Armies, beseeching to interpose with his Divine aid, as it was ye Crisis, and the cause of the country, of humanity and of the world.

'Such a prayer I never heard from the lips of man. I left him alone praying.

'I went home and told my wife. I saw a sight and heard today what I never saw or heard before, and just related to her what I had seen and heard and observed. We never thought a man c'd be a soldier and a Christian, but if there is one in the world, it is Washington. She also was astonished. We thought it was the cause of God, and America could prevail.' "He then to me put out his right hand and said 'I turned right about and became a Whig.'"

There are several other accounts of the Prayer at Valley Forge, mostly differing in minor details, but remaining substantially the same. One even exists in the writing of Isaac Potts' own daughter Ruth-Anna, who died in 1811. She relates the story even down to the detail of Potts converting to the American cause after seeing General Washington in prayer.

Read more: http://www.revolutionary-war-and-beyond.com/prayer-at-valley-forge.html#ixzz3tY8ncQnP

The Prayer at Valley Forge by Arnold Friberg, George Washington at Valley Forge

The Prayer at Valley Forge by Arnold Friberg - learn about George Washington at Valley Forge during the hard winter of 1777-1778 during the American Revolution. You can also buy Arnold Friberg prints here.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2015 10:18 AM

2015-12-06T10:18:42-05:00

First off what does "congress shall make no law" mean to you. I see no problem with this there were some members of the team that did not participate in the prayer and I think that is fine a personal choice. I think that we need more public prayer. I would not have a problem if a Jew were to pray by there faith. I don't see the issue. They are not bothering anyone. Now if someone was pressured into praying and they did not want to pray then that is something but this. This is nothing. Pray on

Response by TSgt Dave Beem made Dec 6 at 2015 11:28 AM

2015-12-06T11:28:19-05:00

Well, this is interesting. I wound up bagging my commander during a "command leadership climate survey" for starting our commander's calls with a prayer. HE was a very evangelical Christian. I knew we had dozens of people in our squadron were NOT cool with it. I personally didn't care, but it simply didn't sit right with me that he should be evangelizing on company time.
And like that article stated, those who were uncomfortable with it had no choice. So AFTER the review AND getting his ass chewed by not only the group commander but the Wing King as well, he came back with this. Not a direct quote, but the gist of it remains pure.

Commander says at the NEXT commander's call. "Well, according to the climate survey just done, some people appear to be displeased with my starting commanders call with a prayer. So those of you who do not want to pray may leave the room before we start the prayer."

Now, wouldn't that just single out the whistle blowers? YEP, and their performance reports and awards and decs reflected that retaliation, but we simply couldn't PROVE it. Not to the IG's satisfaction at least.

Thankfully he was soon holding PCS orders.

The problem is NOT with prayer, or evangelizing. It's with WHERE it takes place. And WHO is doing it. For the academy football team, if EVERYONE agreed without feeling pressured to conform, I think the group prayer is fine. Civilian football teams do it all the time, after all. The old saying about "There are no atheists in the trenches when the bullets and artillery shells start flying is most certainly NOT true, but it does seem to have an effect on SOME people.

But the bottom line is that separation of church and state is a key part of our constitution. Unlike Europe, where nation states and principalities throughout history wound up switching religions when their king/prince/leadership declared that they were a "protestant/catholic/Lutheran/whatever" religion, or faced severe penalties (like death), OUR constitution is BASED on religious freedom.

However, while us military folks are free to join whatever faith they like, the Constitution also states that there will be NO STATE SPONSORED RELIGION. No OFFICIAL religion of the US. However, we also know that most of the founding fathers, now, took their religion with a grain of salt. Ben Franklin wasn't exactly a lecher, but wasn't exactly a faithful husband either. Neither was Thomas Jefferson. None of our founding fathers were saints, by any stretch of the imagination. George Washington had teeth ripped out of his slaves mouths so they could be implanted in his. However, they DID forsee a time when, as America grew, DIFFERENT religions as well as different sects of Christianity WOULD develop, and they KNEW it would cause a problem, so they did their best to head that problem off at the pass.

One has to remember that while we swore to DEFEND the constitution of the United States from enemies, both foreign and domestic, we do NOT fall under the protections of that same constitution. Example: Adultery is ONLY a crime in the military..not in the civilian world. We can be brought up on charges for not doing our job, not doing it correctly, or doing it TOO well (like in my case, running a 10,000 system basewide computer network (hardware side) with ZERO budget, ZERO systems under warranty, and ZERO spare parts. So I robbed parts off OLD computers destined for DRMO because something broke in that system. However, from MY point of view, if there was anything USEABLE in that system to repair another one, then it was my DUTY to use it. I would not, for instance, put a power supply that had caught fire back INTO a system bound for DRMO. We snagged RAM, drives, anything that could be salvaged to either upgrade or repair existing systems as well.

But in 2007, I was brought up on charges for turning in an ancient Micron PII/400 system that was NOT complete. They said I STOLE the parts and took them home. Now in 2007, precisely WHAT would I need parts from a machine that old for? I was a gamer, and I've always hand built my systems from the best tech out there..expensive, yes!

They wanted to court martial me. I was guilty until proven innocent. I had to do a complete inventory on TOP of the one I'd just done to transfer the account before I retired. EVERYTHING was there, and complete just like I'd said in my FIRST inventory. But I got fined $2000.00 and was forced to retire early, but luckily with an honorable discharge. And, of course, while all this was going on, systems were dying constantly and I wasn't even allowed to DO my job, lost my net admin privileges, etc. ROYALLY pissed me off because I WAS GUILTY TILL PROVEN INNOCENT and the burden of proof was on me. Especially since my commander, (who was a closet lesbian) was also judge and jury (I took the article 15, even though what they charged me with, WILLFUL dereliction of duty, was NOT what I should have been charged with.

So we do NOT get the protection of our own constitution. I was taken out of my office in handcuffs, paraded down the hallways of our huge RC-135 maintenance facility, which trust me, shocked the hell out of everyone (including me) and it's amazing how your staunchest supporters flee your presence when you come under a cloud.

NOBODY stood up for me, even though there wasn't a single person that I had NOT either helped or bailed out of trouble in that squadron (I was at Offutt 26 years). They were always glad when I came to fix their systems (I was the lead hardware tech on Offutt, and not beating my own drum, but NOBODY on base could compare..I NEVER had a system I couldn't fix! I was the "GO TO GUY" when everyone else failed. Even my first shirt was pissed off at what happened. He told me straight up "Dave, you did what you had to do to keep the mission going. Field Expedient Means. Without our systems, CAMS was dead. Weight and balance programs were dead, and ALL of our RC-135 aircraft would have been grounded almost immediately had I just thrown up my hands and said "they're broke..buy new ones". We were usually OUT of O&M funds by April of each year. ONCE in a great while we'd get a bit of fallout money and got maybe 20 new systems, which were, of course, snatched up by the high rankers, while the CAMS folks, for instance, were still using PIII systems that were slower than snails.

I made SURE they got as many new systems as I could scrounge.

So for keeping the mission first, in spite of zero funding, I was nearly court martialed. the problem with TAKING it to court was that they were going to pad the panel with total computer illiterates, who got confused trying to SAVE a document or to even open their email. Like I'd have stood a chance. Tried by my peers would have been ok, had they actually BEEN my peers, which would have been fellow systems guys..the guys who came to ME when they couldn't fix something. I'd have been off the hook in seconds.

Ok, sorry for the rant, but I used that as an example of how we are NOT protected by the constitution we swore to protect.

Think that PRAYER is a big deal? Ok, has the UCMJ been CHANGED since gays and lesbians can now be openly serving? From what I remember, your wife or girlfriend giving you a "hummer" was sodomy, the same crime as if you screwed a sheep. Guys got busted for it all the time in the dorms, because if the commander entered the dorm room (no warrant..lol) and caught a guy and a girl necking, or unclothed but NO evidence of them having sex, how do you DISPROVE the accusation of your girlfriend giving you a "hummer"? YOU CAN'T!

And since THAT problem actually directly affects the religion issue (I seriously doubt any evangelical church approves of same sex lovemaking), what did the UCMJ do about it?

Did NOTHING change except that now you can SAY you're gay, but you still can't have sex, because it's considered SODOMY under the UCMJ? (and no, I'm not gay, but we ALWAYS had gays and lesbians in the military, and as long as they didn't pinch MY ass, or come onto me, I was ok with it..personal lifestyle choice (or not choice, but genetic, whatever you believe). So say you were a lesbian or gay crewchief. Your shift boss is an evangelical. You are now serving openly. HE thinks you are an ABOMINATION. Think THAT won't be reflected in a performance report, or when it comes time to do the awards and decs thing?

To me, THAT issue is far MORE important than the prayer issue. But for me, Church and State must ALWAYS be separated. Because we are supposed to be ALL EQUAL UNDER THE LAW.

Then again, you really have to wonder why the services hire chaplains to begin with, and every base has a chapel that I've been on. We had a chaplain in our logistics group.. He was Jewish, funny as hell, ALWAYS looked rumpled like he slept in his uniform no matter WHAT he did with it, and he was a damned fine counselor. However, does anyone KNOW why we have base chapels, and a chaplain force? ALL the services do. And for true separation of church and state, THOSE probably need to disappear as well. Now in a combat zone, I can see the services providing a tent for use by any or all of the different religions present in that unit or area, especially when it's NOT safe to gather to worship in places like Ashcanistan. But in the CONUS, and even overseas, I'm quite sure that anyone wanting to go to church could find one off base.

The only reason I brought the chapels up is because sooner or later the ACLU or some other dipshit organization will figure it out and demand that they go.

So think about this. Oh, and for you enlisted (and officer I think), read your enlistment contract. I DARE you to find on that document ANYWHERE that you get PAID. We assume it, but at least on my contracts, there is no mention of money. Only that the military will provide you room and board, and that might not even be on there.

Ok, enough ranting. But I think you can see my point. It all comes down to ethics versus religion, or maybe integrity versus religion. You all swore an oath, same as I did. But we were also taught that we did NOT have to obey an unlawful order. However, it seems that the UCMJ decides what orders are lawful and what orders are not.

LET US PRAY, said by your commander at commander's call IS AN ORDER FROM YOUR COMMANDER TO PRAY. Nothing wrong with being an evangelical ANYTHING (I think the true interpretation of the Koran makes ALL Moslems EVANGELICAL, since it IS a basic tenant of the Koran and Islam to SPREAD THE WORD AMONGST THE UNBELIEVERS! I've read the Koran front to back many times (though I'm positive that you lose something in the translation from Arabic to English).

What would you do if your commander suddenly came into your office wearing a turban and you hear a "call to prayer" over the intercom system? Alarms would go off in your head that would deafen you.

Well, guess what? A kid in ROTC in college managed to get a CIVILIAN judge to rule that (since the boy is a SIKH (I spelled it wrong, I know), he CAN grow his beard and wear a turban WHILE in uniform. The judge stated that the beard was no different from the shaving waivers for people with that pseudofalliculitis, or whatever it is (where skin grows over your whiskers or they grow while NOT penetrating the skin after you shave). However, that religion does NOT allow you to trim your beard either. Go google that one

Dave

When I retired, I got no shadow box, no retirement certificate for me OR my kids or spouse, and I was forced to lose 60 days of leave as well because the commander refused to authorize my selling it back. I left the service a VERY bitter man.

We are ALL held to a higher standard than civilians are. yet we are supposed to reflect a cross section of society. When our commander in chief commits adultery, he gets away with it. When our own USAF IG gets bagged for career wide sexual harassment, he gets to retire.

Response by SPC Joshua Heath made Dec 7 at 2015 9:21 AM

2015-12-07T09:21:24-05:00

I have no problem with military members choosing to pray in any manner that they feel is consistent with their conscience and the UCMJ. What I do have a problem with is forced communal prayer during military ceremonies. If service members want to pray, let them pray. Do not have a chaplain bless ceremonies because that is a clear disruption of the establishment clause. I as a non-Abrahamic religious person was forced to participate in rituals that I did not agree with on a regular basis because they were performed by a Chaplain. Let me pray as I wish to pray, and I will continue to fight to protect the rights of every individual to pray in the way they wish.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2015 1:05 PM

2015-12-07T13:05:35-05:00

Personally I see no issue with it. it only becomes a problem when anyone is favored due to the common no-nos like race, religion, sex etc etc. But I can still a problem if prayer needs special accommodations in means of time or other - but for the example, I have no issue.

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made Dec 7 at 2015 4:10 PM

2015-12-07T16:10:23-05:00

As a retired 04, OEF Vet, Humanist this is just another example of theistic expression. My expectation is that is neither encourage /discourage this stuff. If they must, insist that they take place privately. We warriors need to be above board & do w/o the public sectarian expressions. The Nation holds its Officers & NCOs to the highest ethical standards. How could the public NOT THINK this is an USAFA/military institutional practice? But I have seen worse!

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 8 at 2015 12:54 PM

2015-12-08T12:54:47-05:00

This is not a stab at you, but just imagine a SNL skit where George Washington says lets pray and his Continental Army gets in groups by Jews, Islamic , Christians, Atheists beliefs; but they cant even stomach that. We are now a country of unreasonable adults and various forms of government are at times endorsing this unreasonable behavior of the vocal minority (not race).

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Dec 8 at 2015 10:29 PM

2015-12-08T22:29:39-05:00

I am a Christian, and I don't plan to walk on egg shells about that. I read my bible at work, at lunch, in the morning or anytime I have down time. I can handle others doing the same. Why are folks becoming so upset when they see Christians expressing their faith? Is it intolerance? Is it bigotry? Is it political correctness gone too far? I refuse to get one the same level as others who complain but what won't do is answer to someone's PC needs if it discriminate against me as a Christian.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 8 at 2015 10:45 PM

2015-12-08T22:45:35-05:00

Instead of us mere mortals, let's ask Jesus for his perspective...

Response by TSgt John Temblador, PI, CIPA made Dec 9 at 2015 10:35 AM

2015-12-09T10:35:11-05:00

When All Hope Is Gone | Dr. Charles Stanley http://www.intouch.org/watch/when-all-hope-is-gone#.VmhJ7VzR0zc

When All Hope Is Gone | Dr. Charles Stanley

Hope is a word of optimism, and it defines what we are living for. In this sermon, Dr. Stanley explores a biblical story of hopelessness and how Jesus can change our hopeless perspective into joy we can only imagine. There is no such thing as “beyond repair” for God. He has a purpose for each of us, and there is a reason for the trials we face.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Dec 9 at 2015 11:50 AM

2015-12-09T11:50:16-05:00

Anything they can find to whine about I guess. From what I read a few players stood out of the prayer circle and that's fine. As long as it wasn't forced these people need to quit their whining and complaining. If the players want to pray before they play then let them. There's nothing wrong with it. If you don't like it, don't bow your head. Wait the 30 seconds it takes for them to finish and enjoy the game.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Dec 9 at 2015 12:25 PM

2015-12-09T12:25:08-05:00

Sir with all due respect this article is offensive. I say that because there is nothing wrong with the players praying. It's not hurting the mission (even though this is football), and if this gives the players or servicemen a chance to get a sense of calm before the game or a mission, I'm all for it. For the Generals to say that it plays into any terrorist orgs playbook, I'd ask him how many foot patrols or even mounted ones has he been on? I know my guys had no problem praying before moving out...EVER. If anything this video would play into OUR playbook as a sign of solidarity through religions or even those that are not believers. It's what we NEED now. There was an uproar over the football player who happened to be Muslim and after scoring a TD he got down and thanked Mohammed. Thank goodness cooler heads prevailed and he had the full support of his team, the NFL, and many fans. If we took this simple show of support away, something that doesn't cost any money, is open to those who want to partake in it, and doesn't hurt or offend those who don't, we've truly fell into the hands of the enemy. They've finally made it so we are taking away our basic freedoms in the pursuit of "security", and that isn't what we stand for. If any of those officers can show me where prayer of any faith has affected their missions, resulted in losses of man and equipment I'd amend my view.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Dec 9 at 2015 12:54 PM

2015-12-09T12:54:01-05:00

The author is out of his gourd. "pernicious and dangerous". To whom? By whom? As far as I can tell, no one directed or even suggested they pray...they just did. There was no hint of command direction or influence here. Is prayer itself now illegal in America? And his "what if"...what would have happened if one of them had backed off and prayed to Allah or Yahweh? I know the answer: Nothing! It would have been exactly as it was...individuals deciding to pray. What a tool.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Dec 10 at 2015 10:31 AM

2015-12-10T10:31:24-05:00

All our sports events begin with two lead ins, prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance. That includes public school events. During my 21 year career, this was never an issue, if you were interested in joining religious activities, no one thought anything about it. (They were not the ones most of us went on liberty with, however) The same applied to those that didn't want to participate, for any reason. As the Philosopher, Rodney King once said, "Can't we just get along?"

Response by PO2 Christopher Foss made Dec 10 at 2015 2:31 PM

2015-12-10T14:31:39-05:00

Praying in private before the game, fine; praying on the field, during an official function, not fine.

I feel like this incident was specifically chosen to be provocational. That said, the legal line here is not religion per say, but the exercise of religion in a capacity that creates either the perception of or the actual endorsement of a specific religion by the military, which is to say, the government. The players are personally free to do what they wish in a religious sense, so long as neither they, nor the Service, make it seem like the religion has the endorsement of the Service. They are at an official function, in one of the uniforms of the Academy, therefore, they are representing the Service. If they want to pray in the locker room, so long as they do not force it upon anyone, let them pray.

Praying on the field is nothing more than a public display, and is a violation of both the UCMJ and federal law.

Response by CDR William Kempner made Dec 10 at 2015 2:53 PM

2015-12-10T14:53:23-05:00

I am aware of some of the practices at USAFA, and I think they were out of line. If I'm not mistaken a USAFA grad, MIkey Weinstein, has been tasked by BHO to address that. Unfortunately, like any other of these things, the baby gets thrown out with the bath water. There is a reason we HAVE chaplains. And a good interfaith prayer asking for Protection, or blessings from the Almighty, isn't a bad thing, and isn't meant to be hurtful. If you choose not to participate , that's fine. The morons defining the separation of church and state in America in 2015 in reference to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution demand the TOTAL removal of any references to God or a higher power. That is NOT what was meant!! It meant the absence of a state-sponsored religion, in particular, the Church of England, where the head of state was also the head of the church!! It was to avoid a direct connection to any particular church/denomination -thus allowing people to worship freely to whatever god they chose, OR NOT TO! The Declaration of Independence and other documents contain numerous references to a higher power, e g. . "Endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights.." Have another look at the coins in your pocket-"In God We Trust." If that offends you please collect all of them and mail them to me. Address on request (sarcasm) . My point-keep it in perspective.

Response by PO3 Brad Phlipot made Dec 11 at 2015 8:10 AM

2015-12-11T08:10:30-05:00

This is so funny because I remember being issued / given a pocket bible in bootcamp. Everyone should be left to their own faith as long as members are seeking consult or it does not interfere in any way with your loyalty to your Oath. Personally I was absolutely shocked when I read an article stating that the AF had changed the Oath by leaving so help me God optional. No matter what anyone says our country was founded on Judaeo / Christian values and this is evident in our national monuments. So then the question becomes in this scenario to those taking the Oath whom do you serve? A man? That is a dangerous path to go down as history shows us.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Dec 11 at 2015 10:26 AM

2015-12-11T10:26:28-05:00

It does not take a social scientist to figure out that Christianity and Christians are under attack abroad, and in the US.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2015 12:42 PM

2015-12-11T12:42:14-05:00

as long as they are not forcing me to do any of it.

If you give in by peer pressure ... that mean you don't have "it" in your faith anyway :P lol

Response by Lucas Larzabal made Dec 11 at 2015 1:57 PM

2015-12-11T13:57:21-05:00

The fundamental idea behind freedom of religion is the ability for each individual to, pardon the redundancy, freely practice their faith (that means anywhere). It is not, however, a freedom for those in power to limit religious expression. If an individual is offended by another's religious practices, the appropriate response is to simply not participate or say their own prayer. Practice of religion is a personal allowance for as long as it is voluntary and does not interfere with the mission.

In layman's terms; they can pray, you can choose not to participate or pray to a god of spaghetti and meatballs, but you can't prevent them from praying to whoever they choose. This needs to be viewed on a personal level in that each student chose to do this, and they are entitled to do so for themselves.

Response by Maj Matt Hylton made Dec 11 at 2015 2:52 PM

2015-12-11T14:52:27-05:00

AFI1-1:
"2.11. Government Neutrality Regarding Religion. Leaders at all levels must balance constitutional protections for an individual’s free exercise of religion or other personal beliefs and the constitutional prohibition against governmental establishment of religion. For example, they must avoid the actual or apparent use of their position to promote their personal religious beliefs to their subordinates or to extend preferential treatment for any religion. Commanders or supervisors who engage in such behavior may cause members to doubt their impartiality and objectivity. The potential result is a degradation of the unit’s morale, good order, and discipline. Airmen, especially commanders and supervisors, must ensure that in exercising their right of religious free expression, they do not degrade morale, good order, and discipline in the Air Force or degrade the trust and confidence that the public has in the United States Air Force."

"actual or APPARENT USE" - that is the past that applies in most cases. If the appearance of extending preferential treatment for one religion vs. another could be seen, you should avoid it. There is even a part of the article that shows a great example of the implications that could happen due to appearance of the use of position to promote religious beliefs or extend preferential treatment:
Here's what one football team member had to say: "It is certain cadets on the team who are viewed as leaders (and even some who are not but still have team influence) who are leading the public praying. If you don't go along with it you are not going to be viewed as a good follower or teammate."

That right there is an example of something that degrades morale, good order and discipline. If someone doesn't want to do something but goes along with it because they believe they could experience ramifications from not going along with leaders (or someone with "team influence"), then that is impacting morale, good order and discipline.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2015 1:23 AM

2015-12-12T01:23:57-05:00

Recently, my command had a barbecue. It was a great time. There was wings, pork loin (wrapped in bacon), football, lacrosse, cornhole, and a great crew. There was also a prayer before the meal.
I'm an atheist. So when the prayer came around, I bowed my head. Out of respect for my crew. Is that the right thing to do? Would another atheist (or Muslim, Jew, etc.) do the same? Maybe. But at the end of the day....... who cares. We all have this thing called "religious freedom". I can bow my head if I want. I can stand still if I want. They can pray to Allah, God, Satan, whoever. That's the glory of America. At least.... it should be.
Far as I'm concerned, as soon as we joined the military, we all should have already known people come from different backgrounds. In a perfect world, we all would understand this. Understand that some people pray to another god than you do. Or maybe they don't pray to a god at all.
If it's one thing I leaned about the Navy, it's primarily Christian. Maybe we can all agree to that. But that's just one thing I noticed. It doesn't bother me. So, IN THEORY, it shouldn't bother the Muslim, Jewish, etc. community. But clearly... this post wouldn't exist if it didn't.
Maybe one day... we'll all just be OK with our neighbor practicing something contradictory to what we practice. We'll respect the differences. Hell, we might even inquire about them. Learn a thing or 2 about their religious practice.
So how do I feel about religious expression in the military? I'm for it. Please do so. You have that freedom. I can choose to play along if I want. I can ignore it. Nothing can happen to me if I decide not to pray with you. The Ceremonial Guard in Washington D.C. even changed their drill to accommodate religious differences. They used to bow their heads for the (mostly Christian) invocation in some ceremonies. They changed that so the non-religious (or mostly non-Christian) members performing in the ceremony didn't have to bow their heads for prayer. The Christian members can pray along (as long as they didn't move while doing it), the Muslims can pray to Allah, the atheists can... do whatever....
I wish this question didn't even have to be asked. But I understand why it does.

Response by SPC David S. made Dec 14 at 2015 10:56 AM

2015-12-14T10:56:27-05:00

I know Mr. Weinstein is a USAFA graduate and served in the Air Force - he stated that he experienced on numerous occasions anti-semitic aggression while at the USAFA. However both of his sons attended "the hill" as well. If it was as bad as he suggests it makes me question his reasoning in allowing his sons to be exposed to such behavior.

As far as COL Wilkerson, I have a funny feeling he's pushing an agenda along the like of Mr. Weinstein. He Just happened to "invite" Mr. Weinstein to speak at William and Mary and then writes this crap. He seems like a good "liberal" fit for a college professor. I'm sure he is not pushing this opinion down the throats of his students. It seems OK to push anti-religion (using a verse from the Bible), which to me is a position on religion, yet others (Christians) are not offered the same liberties. Very hypocritical, biased, and unconstitutional in my opinion. No one forced the cadets to pray in the end zone as there were a couple that didn't pray. Additionally none of these players are in the military - their cadets. Sounds like Wilkerson was being very opportunistic in getting his agenda published.

Response by PO2 Katie Benson made Dec 14 at 2015 11:02 AM

2015-12-14T11:02:46-05:00

I respect my shipmates, regardless of their religious preferences!
That being said, I will assume they will offer me the same respect.

Response by PFC Stephen Eric Serati made Dec 19 at 2015 11:50 AM

2015-12-19T11:50:11-05:00

No Sir it's not authorized.Your allowed to worship in your off time,and if you worship while in the field all Religions must be represented.But your job as leaders is not to push your Religious beliefs or allow others to push their Religious beliefs on those in your command.Separation of Church and State.Our military is so great because of its diversity and mutual respect for all.If I was the supervisor any public showing emplicating the military as excepting one religion over another or atheism would not be allowed.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2015 12:29 PM

2015-12-24T12:29:17-05:00

Considering it's a first amendment right guaranteed to the sovereign individual, the members should be free to express their beliefs to the point they do not use it as a crutch to get out of their military obligations. For example, joining a Jehovah's Witness church then proclaiming conscientious objector status. Or "I have to go to church and can't stand duty..." That dog don't hunt.

Response by Maj John Bell made Apr 2 at 2016 2:11 AM

2016-04-02T02:11:00-04:00

I am a Christian. I follow a don't ask don't tell policy when it comes to my faith. I say grace before I consume a meal or a snack, but in settings where other people might feel awkwardly included, I go to the "prayer closet". In a public setting like a restaurant I don't make a show of it, but I'm not going to the "prayer closet". If people ask about my faith, I'm not telling, until I know why they are curious about it. Even then it is in tiny servings and they've got to ask for more.

Response by CPL George Cruz made Feb 12 at 2019 6:55 PM

2019-02-12T18:55:54-05:00

Its It's all good when its it's your religion or one that you tolerate, but when it is one that you don't approve of, that's a different story. Then we start finding excuses why it isn't appropriate. When we look at the middle east and how they are forced to worship, I start seeing why it is best to keep religion out of your day to day military life. Not to say you cant worship on your time, but don't bring it to work.

Response by SPC David S. made Feb 13 at 2019 12:46 PM

2019-02-13T12:46:52-05:00

Well what about the chapel - is that not taboo as well - underneath the main chapel there is a synagogue and in the back a nondenominational church as well - this was all introduced as a plebe - not to mention it was built with federal funds - church and state.

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Feb 13 at 2019 7:51 PM

2019-02-13T19:51:14-05:00

I honestly don't understand all the problems. I worked with and for, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, Atheists, Buddhists and many others.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Aug 8 at 2021 10:14 AM

2021-08-08T10:14:20-04:00

I am against it. I don't want my GOD or anyone elses used as an excuse to kill

Response by LTC David Brown made Aug 8 at 2021 12:30 PM

2021-08-08T12:30:42-04:00

Pray before the game as a voluntary group and pray after the game as a volunteer group, while on the field follow the rules.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Aug 8 at 2021 1:30 PM

2021-08-08T13:30:29-04:00

We are largely a Christian country whether the liberals or atheists want to agree and what I worry about when a group military Christians come together to pray in mass like a football team that the lone Muslim or Jew or Atheist feels left out. Our roles as leaders is to make everyone feel included and part of the team. We should not keep these players from praying but should teach these future leaders about inclusion and being part of a greater team. I personally try my hardest that no one, whether when I was active duty or as a nurse, knows my religious beliefs. Capt Gregory Prickett

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2021 3:09 PM

2021-08-08T15:09:13-04:00

I wish more and more service members attended Church.

Response by PO1 John Johnson made Aug 9 at 2021 6:57 AM

2021-08-09T06:57:40-04:00

It is what it is; someone's Constitutionally protected "Freedom of Religion". I you don't like it, don't participate but don't be a dick and try to interrupt others who have faith or try to get it cancelled, end of story. You have Freedom of Religion, not Freedom from Religion. Not listening or participating if you don't like it works wonders.

Response by PVT Ted Rodosovich made Dec 4 at 2022 8:52 AM

2022-12-04T08:52:28-05:00

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