How do you handle a government civilian with an attitude?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:14:04 -0400

I work in a joint environment where myself and an Navy LT are the only military members and the other six are GGs. Got a snarky little GG-10 that thinks she can pop an attitude with me regardless of how nice I'm being with her. Wanted to tell her off today but held my breath. Our branch chief (GG-14) is outprocessing and is never around. Would you put her in her place in front of the rest of the office (which I think is best, not alone with just her and I), or would you just ignore her attitude?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2017 3:31 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:31:20 -0400

Knifehand, activate!

Response by SGT Jim Ramge, MBA made Oct 19 at 2017 3:43 PM

SGT Jim Ramge, MBA — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:43:04 -0400

Might have a look at the equivalency charts I provided below... Might have a similar rank and not realize it! Many folks are not aware this exists! Your Navy LT actually out ranks her and should speak with her if you go through your chain of command...! Welcome to the world of Joint!

http://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals/45/documents/fmr/archive/11aarch/11a_06_appendix_b_Dec08.pdf

11a_06_appendix_b_Dec08.pdf

Response by SPC Robert Coventry made Oct 19 at 2017 3:45 PM

SPC Robert Coventry — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:45:21 -0400

I would not talk to a toxic person alone especially a female, she can say anything, if she gets butt hurt. I would test the other GGs and see if anyone else gets the same attitude, if so use them to get to her. You have to get the section chief involved bite your tongue until the new SC starts. I would log every interaction with her and make sure you cover your six.

Response by SGT David T. made Oct 19 at 2017 3:47 PM

SGT David T. — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:47:38 -0400

This is sort of a tricky situation. You have two things going against you right off the bat. A GG-10 generally is considered to be (based on pay grade alone) a higher level position (note I did not use the word outrank) than an E-6. So the higher management will more than likely side with her probably so they don't have to deal with the civilian unions. Second civilian employees are a bit different in how you have to deal with them. You can't talk to them the same way you would a Soldier. Well, I guess you could, but that probably would be a very bad idea. Dealing with the civilian unions and EEO complaints is a bigger headache than you want to be quite honest. The problem isn't so much what she can do, it's more who can she run to in order to get a favorable outcome for herself.

Isn't dealing with civilians fun? :)

In all seriousness, I would pull her aside but not completely alone and ask her politely if you have done anything to cause any issues with her. State that, you perceive her demeanor towards you indicates a problem that you all need to work through. Don't get visibly emotional and don't cuss her out.

I hate hearing when civilian employees act like this. Some forget that the only reason most of us have jobs is because of you all. Our entire function is to support the army and those in it. It is funny how easy it is for some civilian employees to remember that fact.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Oct 19 at 2017 4:13 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 16:13:57 -0400

"not alone with just her and I"
NEVER just two, then it becomes he said she said and the report will detail how the "accused" threatened and terrorized" the poor little civilian.

Document, document, document and that includes witness statements, names, dates and times. Make light of it, not a big deal ''Hey, did she really just tell me to go mop something when i asked her if the weekly report was done?" When the other person says yes.... Just say ok and drop it...
then, on your won in privet, write down what, who said what and when.
When you have a strong of events that show a trend, you have two choices, you and a fellow office mate can address the issue to her and support it with what you have built.. or you can do that and then report it to a section chief. That supervisor can ignore a verbal complaint from you, but not when it comes with 10 events detailed in writing with specifics of what was said and who \else heard it and confirmed.

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made Oct 19 at 2017 4:27 PM

PO3 Steven Sherrill — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 16:27:30 -0400

SFC Private RallyPoint Member Better make it in public if you need to have it out. If the behavior continues, then it is going to be detrimental to the team. That or make the morning coffee with a strong laxative so that she is not around most of the day.

Response by SSgt Ryan Sylvester made Oct 19 at 2017 4:27 PM

SSgt Ryan Sylvester — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 16:27:37 -0400

So back when I was still in uniform, I was working out of a three-letter HQ. One of our mission directors was a former AF MSgt that transitioned over to the GS-14 slot. He was... not very well liked. But he was competent at his job, so he was taken on board.

He was also the epitome of micro-management.

So one day I'm working on an outage, one of our circuits that had been up and down for weeks, and one day it had gone so intermittent that it was finally intolerable to the brass, so I got to work on trying to find out why it was being so finicky. Three hours in and numerous calls to the relay station between us and the DE, and I was no closer to finding out what the heck was going on. But there was Mr. 14, every 10 minutes, up in my work area, demanding an update. By demanding, I mean I had to physically stop what I was doing, look up and address him directly with a full report of what the issue was, what had been done to this point (everything), and what my next course of action was before he would go away. It was getting to the point that the report itself was 10 minutes long.

Finally, I snapped. "Look. You are over here every 10 minutes. There's no change. There's no change from the last 10 minutes you were over here, or the 10 minutes before that, or before that. There probably isn't going to be any change in the next 10 minutes, either, because I'm having to stop what I'm doing every 10 minutes to answer you. Now, you have a choice. You can come back and ask me for yet another update in 10 minutes with the same damned answer I've been giving you, which boils down to no update, or you can go back to your desk, sit down, and leave me the hell alone and let me actually work on the damned issue, and I promise you I will come over straight away and provide you with a real update just as soon as I have one."

I was not known for tact.

Response by SGT Christopher Hayden made Oct 19 at 2017 6:39 PM

SGT Christopher Hayden — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 18:39:29 -0400

You mean like 99% of them? I just ignore their attitude and remind myself that they must be hating life because they work for the government.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2017 9:04 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 21:04:35 -0400

Read through some of the comments. Maybe I missed it, but no one talked about documentation. In any HRO complaint, which this may turn into eventually, you're going to need documentation. So start there. Take notes (maybe not during, but after any confrontation or interaction). Write down date/time, what was said, who said it, and any outcomes positive or negative. Look at your chain of command in the office, and figure out who her direct supervisor is. ANY and ALL conversations you have with her MUST have another party present, preferably someone who is also a uniformed member. If you have formal, documented conversations with her, make sure you DO NOT do it alone! Have someone present with both of you at all times, preferably a neutral third party who does NOT work in your office. Ideally, this person should be from HRO, and have conflict resolution or moderation training and/or background.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Oct 20 at 2017 11:27 AM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Fri, 20 Oct 2017 11:27:53 -0400

I was a Lt Col when I retired and now I am a GS-12. I have been on both sides of the fence now and I can say unequivocally that Gov Civ's are necessary for continuity and to quite frankly, get the job done. Most civilians are true patriots and a lot of them are retired GI's. A few bad ones ruin it for all the rest of us.

Now for your question. Document the attitude of the person and write down verbatim what they say and how they are treating you. They do not 'outrank" you...PERIOD. They may hold a higher position of responsibility but they do not outrank you. Once you have documented the actions make an appointment with the supervisor of said individual. They should counsel the individual and if it doesn't get better, guess what, civilians can get reprimanded and ultimately fired. It isn't as hard as people think. If this individual comes at you in public then yo can politely reengage with her if there are others around. That will give credibility to you being treated the way you are being treated. Just don't go at it alone...as stated in the thread by several folks, it will turn into a he said she said issue and it probably won't fair well and if you are alone with a female, they can claim a whole lot of things that can never be proven. When I was counseling a female for anything or meeting with one, my door was always open and if it required the door to be closed, I brought in my First Sergeant or my E--9 Superintendent so that I was not alone. Just wasn't worth my career.

Good luck

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2017 12:18 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Oct 2017 12:18:20 -0400

I'd avoid it if you can SSG, but if you are going to say something all things considered have some witnesses prepped. Sometimes principles are an important thing, so pick and choose your battles and make sure it's one you can win. That said document everything, just like gathering intel for said upcoming battle. Keep an eye out for patterns of misconduct.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2017 8:45 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:45:44 -0400

Never one on one and not in public to berate or correct. First off, what is your role vis a vis your antagonist? Are you in a leadership or supervisory position? Do you contribute to or provide input into the person's performance review? Do they even do that anymore? If you do not have a role that gives yo specifically stated and understood authority vis a vis your colleague, you have no right to tell them off in my opinion. My recollection at DIA is that there was a chain of command, if it isn't your role use the chain of command. Not trying to bum you out but you are treading in some hefty HR related legal swamps. Just an opinion.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2017 9:23 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 09:23:00 -0400

A little detail would help me frame my answer better but...
Be aware, be very aware that this individual is the queen of her little fiefdom and feels entitled. Entitled people do not wilt meekly when they are confronted for their tact and work ethic. They attack. And when they do, you will lose. Unless you document.
If day to day life does not require you to be in contact with this cat, I would leave the dog lie. If you feel particularly aggrieved or think that she is making a hostile work environment, then a formal or informal complaint is in order. Just make sure that what you write up is factually correct, free of any commentary on your part, and preferably accompanied by witness accounts.
If you are stuck working with her regularly, get some rank on your side if you want to hash this out and put any hostility to bed. Supervisors don't need this kind of crap in their office, and should be anxious to see you to shake and make up.

But I will stick with my original guidance absent clarifications - this kind of stuff is a minefield best avoided.

Response by LT Richard Mondak made Oct 23 at 2017 12:01 PM

LT Richard Mondak — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 12:01:46 -0400

My son is one... I have several options.
I am assuming that he leaves the attitude at home because in his first year, he already has been upgraded.

Response by Maj William Mitchell made Nov 21 at 2022 9:48 PM

Maj William Mitchell — Mon, 21 Nov 2022 21:48:44 -0500

I would ignore the attitude and consider killing her with kindness.