How do you handle "problem Soldiers?"

2015-06-17T19:58:46-04:00

I have a new Soldier, fresh out of AIT. He has told everyone more than once that he is only serving to gain experience for the civilian sector. However, he cannot pass APFT, abuses sick call, and has a blatant disregard for authority. I have tried just about every approach to counseling you can imagine: 4856, "aggressive counseling," corrective training, "under the oak tree" counseling, everything short of putting hands on this kid. I have expressed to leadership that I want to remove him from service, as I have ample ammunition to do so. However, leadership has expressed that they want to retain for the time being and see if he squares himself away. Has anyone had any success with this type of Soldier?

I know this is a frequent topic of discussion, but I would like to just throw this out there. The caliber of Soldier has indeed diminished. The "New Army's" ranks is being filled with the "everyone gets a trophy" generation. I believe the warrior spirit is almost gone and its time we bring it back. NCOs need to be the backbone we once were. We need to quit coddling and start reminding Soldiers they joined to fight America's wars, not to just receive a paycheck. In the words of Gen Patton "...this is not a tea party for old women, this is the Army, we kill people."

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jun 17 at 2015 8:10 PM

2015-06-17T20:10:03-04:00

Escalate his self interest.

As you said, he's serving to gain experience for the civilian sector. Point out in no uncertain terms that continued paperwork can result in less than a full Honorable Discharge which affects many of his benefits (GI Bill for example).

We're selfish creatures, whether we admit it or not. There's nothing wrong with "looking out for your star player" IF you don't screw over others along the way. He may have missed that particular lesson.

Get him on board with the idea of using the Army to gain experience, in a positive and beneficial manner.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 17 at 2015 8:10 PM

2015-06-17T20:10:23-04:00

Since it seems like you've tried everything already, I would say keep up the written counseling statements until they can no longer be ignored.

Response by MSgt Keith Hebert made Jun 17 at 2015 8:39 PM

2015-06-17T20:39:11-04:00

Keep piling up the paperwork and it will catch up and also volunteer him for a long term detail that would keep him from gaining experience

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 17 at 2015 8:45 PM

2015-06-17T20:45:16-04:00

This is just me, but if he is a cancer in the ranks and can't pass the APFT, and can't be motivated, I would push to chapter him out ASAP.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Jun 17 at 2015 8:48 PM

2015-06-17T20:48:29-04:00

You mentioned the approaches you have taken, but during any of those did you mention to him that going down this path could lead due a less than honorable discharge that could hurt his civilian sector job aspirations? Or develop a plan to reach his goals ? Clearly his motivation isn't military oriented, but taking a different and slightly more positive approach may make a difference.

Response by SSG Rebecca Wilson made Jun 17 at 2015 10:00 PM

2015-06-17T22:00:17-04:00

I have had a few of these soldiers. My last one was absolutely the worst. He did everything from steal a television from the company to go AWOL when he was on extra duty. I noticed the last year I was in that these soldiers where multiplying in numbers. Its the me generation in my opinion. These soldiers seem to think they are owed a paycheck for doing nothing. My suggestion is work him on every detail you can find. Gainfully employ him. Also I would have him come meet me at the GYM before PT hours and make sure he was getting good extra PT. It might not work but sometimes when you show them they can achieve then they will take the incentive to achieve more. Just a thought.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Jun 17 at 2015 10:27 PM

2015-06-17T22:27:43-04:00

We've all, unfortunately, had to deal with a s***birds, sick-bay commandos, and our fair share of non-hackers. I always tried to make their existence as uncomfortably comfortable as possible. If the kid had a light duty chit, he would bring his camp stool to morning PT... and watch. When we went out on heavy gun shoots (fun stuff, right?), he brought his camp stool... and watched. When it was time for field day (that's cleaning, for Marines)... guess what? He brought his camp stool... and watched. For every event at any level, I made sure we had a camp stool for him. I made sure that his NCO's, Plt Sgt, etc. ALL knew that he 1.) was to be there, and 2.) not to participate. After a while, the non-hacker would get sick of having to endure his shipmates' criticism. I didn't keep a log of those that "came around." But, I'd guess this method turned about a 95% success rate. The other 5% were administratively separated for "failure to adapt to a military environment." Honestly, I didn't care the disposition of his discharge --for he was gone.

I hope that more RP members chime in on this... with more creative ideas. There is a leadership challenge in front of you. Best of luck.

Response by SPC William Weedman made Jun 17 at 2015 11:26 PM

2015-06-17T23:26:36-04:00

At my last duty station, I befriended my Company Commander, we were both from KY and both Cincinnati Reds fans, plus it was the last year they won the World Series (1990). After talking sports we talked about the military service, he told me that he had no problem chaptering soldiers who could not adapt. All he asked of his NCOs and officers that there was enough paperwork to support their claims. It's a shame that your leadership seems to be too distracted to care. Perhaps he should become the leaderships problem...have him detailed to the orderly room or to HQ somehow. Perhaps having a dirtbag under their feet all day may convince them how useless he is, and keep him from whatever "magic" he seems to think military service will give him. Also do not hesitate to take away any thing you can, deny leave requests, place a friendly phone call to the medical facility NCOIC (I was a medic, we learned who the sick call commandos were) to make sure he really needs light duty or quarters, it might also help if you decide to show malingering too if the NCOIC knows who you are. Otherwise you've done everything this former E-4 squad leader can think of.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2015 12:26 AM

2015-06-18T00:26:33-04:00

I've had this happen numerous times. They want the experience, the college tuition paid for, etc.

I will focus a great deal of effort (as you have) to rehabilitating or motivating the kid. If it works, great. If not, I work with my commander and draft the discharge paperwork. If the knucklehead is going to waste the Air Force's time and money, and take my time away from my squared away Airmen, then they are of no use to me or my Air Force. I've been fortunate to never have a commander disagree with that philosophy.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jun 18 at 2015 12:33 AM

2015-06-18T00:33:03-04:00

AMEN!
I had an individual in uniform (he did not and does not deserve to be called a Soldier) that was like this. I found that I had to do the following:
1) Document EVERYTHING, good and bad, date time group and his signature.
2) Include "The Magic Bullet Counseling" in every disciplinary counseling session
3) Have a reputation as an NCO that does Counsel all his Soldiers. This shows you are not picking on Private Fester.
4) If Fester has a real honest to goodness problem, make sure you deal with it correctly.
5) Ask Doc, if, in his opinion fester is malingering, if yes, have Doc sign a statement to that effect.
6) Make sure that it is not just a personality thing.
7) Live the BE KNOW DO attributes of a Leader in front of him

Good Luck SSG, you will need it.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Jun 18 at 2015 12:43 AM

2015-06-18T00:43:22-04:00

I recommend you calling HIS MOMMA! She don't want him back, let him tell her (on a speaker phone) that he is getting in trouble for his behavior and if he continues he will be sent back home.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2015 7:54 AM

2015-06-18T07:54:08-04:00

Always do the right thing keep putting it on paper. PT him to death. and take from him the most valuable thing. his time. It will not be fun but you will make it in the end. Keep the faith and keep pushing him make him a great soldier or get so much on him that no one can ignore it. It takes time but I know you can do it.

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Jun 18 at 2015 8:54 AM

2015-06-18T08:54:08-04:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member Get him to sign up on RallyPoint and I know a lot of individuals (couple 100) on this site that can give him some positive reinforcement. Some his own age and rank as well.

I never gave up on an individual like this and I always supported my junior leadership when they brought a problem child to my attention. I can say that I turned a few over my tenure and I chaptered a few out. There are key things that he wants to get punched on his ticket that you mentioned. Focus on those things he wants and reward him only if he goes after those things by conforming to the rest of the individuals under your authority.

We have all had these challenges in our careers as NCOs and Officers - that’s why I loved what I did for all those years - these types of challenges.

In the end this individual will make you a better NCO - embrace it and never give up! Hooooah!

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2015 9:57 AM

2015-06-18T09:57:43-04:00

Honestly I use to take those guys and give them small mundane projects (no mission essential things stuff like planning BBq or Field Day, etc) so that they could get a taste of what it's like. After their first experience tring to brief a O6 as a E-3 or lower they quickly learned respect for the abilities of those that out rank them. Basically they just need a reality check at one point all of us were the cocky young guy who had to learn that rank and experience really do count more than youth and exuberance.

If that doesn't work there are always base details that need a body and who better than the guys who knows everything.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Jun 18 at 2015 9:57 AM

2015-06-18T09:57:44-04:00

As mentioned earlier, the Solider must be reminded that he can receive a less than. Honorable discharge if his actions continue. That would zero out whatever experience he might gain from his time in the service.

He should also be reminded that he could burn some much needed bridges if he doesn't get right. The move to the civilian sector is not easy and one of the things I look at prior to helping anyone is their class if service. Right now, with the limited information I have, I would be slow to help and I'm sure his chain of command and NCO support channel would be slow to give him a reference.

He'll only get out what he puts in and right now it seems like he's not putting a lot in.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Jun 18 at 2015 10:15 AM

2015-06-18T10:15:09-04:00

People might think I am bragging but here goes. I was a PSG from 99-04. In the middle of that before I was getting burnt out, probably 00-02, the BN CSM pretty much made my PLT the BN designated location for troubled Soldiers. I didn’t have to much heart burn with this because for some reason I was able to make them Soldier when others had problems doing it. I had a rep of being a no nonsense NCO and I didn’t take shit from anyone. I used everything at my disposal to get them to fulfill their obligation to the U.S. Army. Everything went on paper. I learned as a young NCO that if you do not have a paper trail, you are pissing in the wind if/when you need/want to pursue NJP. If they couldn’t PT, I would PT the hell out of them during company PT and then I would PT the hell out of them during remedial PT. They would learn real quick that they didn’t want to stay on remedial PT. If they tried to get a BS profile, the 1SG and I would go take a trip to the TMC and talk to the PA and notify them of what we thought was going on and would usually get it fixed. I would also intimidate the shit out of my trouble makers if need be. You can’t do that in today’s Army, it wouldn’t be a career enhancing move. The only problem I had with doing this for the BN was that the CSM would almost always take them away after my NCOs and I fixed them after we would put numerous hours into fixing the problem.

Response by MG Stephen Hogan made Jun 18 at 2015 11:42 AM

2015-06-18T11:42:42-04:00

A problem as old as time, and this brings to mind a few guys, by name. It is also odd, that in view of this exact issue, that the good soldiers I won't necessarily remember by name.

The informal leadership in the unit always has more influence than the formal chain. I'd see about getting the SPC4 mafia to work for you, and not let Jr. get a Robin Hood reputation. SP4s are the smartest people in the army at this, and at the final accounting, they don't want this dude with them in a dry and sandy place.

Don't slack on the formal stuff and as mentioned above by SGT Wiley. If you get a big pile of paper, that translates to an other than honorable chapter action, it is a useful incentive/ detriment to his former civilian plans, and he'll realize he needs to get good at asking "do you want fries with that?"

There is a point where you need to get him out of there, though- if he never reaches the realization that its easier just to cooperate. If its a chapter, so be it. Otherwise, he can hand out basketballs at the rec center, whatever- but he needs to go- or he could end up infecting the whole unit.

Good luck- and I think you have a great deal of very good advice already posted.

Response by SMSgt Tee Rogers made Jun 18 at 2015 4:42 PM

2015-06-18T16:42:04-04:00

Give him multiple additional duties that require him to help other soldiers and the unit. Utilize every second of his time. He still gets the legal time allowed for rest; but the idea is to keep him actively engaged where he can't delegate it to another. If you have to train him in something special so he can accomplish it, do it. If leadership sees that you've given him additional responsibilities and he's failed to maintain on a proficient level in the most basic of them, they won't be able to retain much longer. His attitude may continue to be a problem but the key is to keep him so occupied, he won't have anyone to whom he can complain. Good luck.

Response by Cpl John M Dutrow made Jun 18 at 2015 9:00 PM

2015-06-18T21:00:47-04:00

Make them walk point till they get right

Response by SSG Mike L made Jun 19 at 2015 10:17 PM

2015-06-19T22:17:14-04:00

it's one of the reasons I didn't re up ....to Manny shit birds .....12 years in and I couldn't take the coddling anymore ....., what happened to our beloved Army ....

Response by SFC Maury Gonzalez made Jun 19 at 2015 10:40 PM

2015-06-19T22:40:02-04:00

There's always that pesky "all other duties as assigned " in orders , duty assignment s, so he can be you first "volunteer " for all details, area beautification, motor pool sweping, weekends CQ, Kp, guard duty....

Response by SGT Bryan Henderson made Jun 19 at 2015 10:54 PM

2015-06-19T22:54:31-04:00

Provide him extra tasks after work call ends. Ive done that with some even worked along side them to show that I'm not above any task I assign my soldiers. That can include extra pop to police call. If that fails I recommend going the route of article 15 with the lightest punishment first. Then go from there. Hope that helps!

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Jun 20 at 2015 12:25 AM

2015-06-20T00:25:44-04:00

The best way to deal with this type of Soldier is to switch gears and try praise. That doesn't mean you ignore the bad issues. It means you make it a point, every day, with every Soldier you have, to offer praise for something they did right. You will find that when they notice you are trying to be positive a large percentage of all of your Soldiers will appreciate it. Many of the lagging ones will too. There will be three side effects with the Soldier in question.
1. This Soldier will know you are making a concerted effort to find the good. Even if the good is, "Hey Soldier, good job parking within the lines today." It will sound corny, but the more you do it, the more the Soldier will know you are making the effort.
2. In this search for something good you will actually find more things the Soldier does right. This will change your mood toward the Soldier and that will effect your interactions with them.
3. It will lend greater credibility to the times where you have to address issues. Since you are not just 100% negative, the times you have to be negative carry more weight.
I hope this helps. I admire your efforts to find a solution. Keep it up.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2015 12:42 AM

2015-06-20T00:42:09-04:00

Keep up the paperwork. Next time you have to give him counseling have a copy of the UCMJ out on your desk opened to the charge(s). Read him what the maximum penalties are. Inform him that a dishonorable discharge equals to ZERO benefits, jail time is a federal convection, and he would be lucky to get a job flipping burgers. Then take him over to the confinement facility on post, if you have one, and have the MP's "show him around" for a while. Let him know that if he keeps it up, his could be his new home. Also engage with the First Sgt about this persons "health issues" due to the number of sick calls and APFT failures and your concern that he is not "medically fit" for the Army.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2015 5:35 PM

2015-06-20T17:35:27-04:00

Response by SPC Ei McS made Jun 20 at 2015 11:10 PM

2015-06-20T23:10:16-04:00

My immediate reaction is: Zero tolerance!!!!!!

You've tried everything possible, including "under the oak tree". Some soldiers need a pep-talk and appreciate it when a superior will talk with them! Also, "under the oak" can potentially be a good risk management tool. Your soldier seems to not want to understand anything at all! It is odd that your command wants to keep this soldier. A soldier like is a risk for your other soldiers once the situation becomes serious and everyone has to depend on each other, such as being in a war zone!

I don't envy the challenge you have at hand! It's not an easy challenge! You are a leader though and I am convinced you'll know what you will have to do, even if this soldier is obviously very difficult!! Some problems are not solved immediately or easily. It would be unrealistic to believe everything in life is easy.

Here are some more of my thoughts. Otherwise, I only see one of three things you could do:
1). Be his mentor, which also means be a perfect role model. Continue to do the "under the oak tree", find out if he's got issues at home. It would take lots of patience and it seems that other soldiers will be much more appreciative if you'd give your time and energy to them.
2). Be a "dictator" (for a lack of a better term): Make it a point to get him out of the Military. Do everything possible (without getting yourself in trouble!!!!!) to get him separated. For example, after three Article 15s he might get a Chapter 11. Keep on it! Be strict.
3). Or a mixture of the two previous points.

What do you think?

Response by SGT Robert Hawks made Jun 20 at 2015 11:18 PM

2015-06-20T23:18:36-04:00

If he is fresh out AIT whatever happened to failure to adapt to Millitary Life and chapter him out.

Response by SGT Lawrence Corser made Jun 22 at 2015 10:54 AM

2015-06-22T10:54:11-04:00

I like it, because you care means to me you're a good NCO, these types come about every now and then, had a guy in Germany that was always doing dumb stuff off duty, was always getting UCMJ for drinking but the Army gave him 50 chances because he wasnt a turd doing the duty day. they eventually kicked him out for drinking.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2015 12:21 PM

2015-06-22T12:21:14-04:00

I have had Soldiers like this, but never had a COC that wanted to keep them. Keep pummeling away on the paperwork I suppose, and make sure you follow the rules when it comes to APFT. 90 days and you follow the rules and he doesn't pass the Commander doesn't have a choice. Short of chapter you need to absolutely make sure you submit the Bar to Reenlistment to the Commander. This is an exceptional and far underutilized tool for leaders that identify profoundly deficient Soldiers.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jun 22 at 2015 12:53 PM

2015-06-22T12:53:12-04:00

How about processing for discharge. See how this type of 'experience' on his DD214 helps him in the civilian sector.

Why not just throw him out? Your energy and effort could be better spent on people who want to serve.

Response by SSG Thomas Brousseau made Jun 22 at 2015 11:47 PM

2015-06-22T23:47:17-04:00

(1) As far as malingering goes you need to maintain documention on this. (2) As for failing the APFT you need to devote some of your personal time in conducting and leading remedial PT. (3) As for disrespect you need to conduct written counseling to include UCMJ ramifications of such action. As for the motivational reasons for why the Soldier enlisted in the military, every Soldier has their own reasons for why they joined. You are a Staff Sergeant, a LEADER. I'm sure that the reasons you joined where like mine. You have a sense of love for your country, Patriotism and Selfless service. Share some of your personal views and why you enlisted. Maybe if you are articulate enough to can instill the same sense of duty that you have, after all someone in your life did the same for you. YOU CAN DO IT!

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2015 11:57 PM

2015-06-22T23:57:45-04:00

8 count push-up!

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Jun 23 at 2015 10:02 AM

2015-06-23T10:02:30-04:00

@SSG James Norman - that Soldier needs either a chance of scenery OR to be shown the door. The Army doesn't need him. Remember the 80/20 rule and you likely won't go wrong.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Jun 23 at 2015 10:32 AM

2015-06-23T10:32:15-04:00

Well, back in the day, a little "wall to wall" counseling, conex rehabilitation or a simple, well placed throat-punch did wonders, but it's a new Army.........

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Jun 23 at 2015 10:33 AM

2015-06-23T10:33:05-04:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member - I had a DS wannabe pull that nonsense on me. I ended up giving him enough rope, then watched him hang himself. 'Twas a beautiful thing.

Response by SSG John Erny made Jun 23 at 2015 4:14 PM

2015-06-23T16:14:53-04:00

Bring in an application for McDonalds and tell him it may come in handy!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2015 4:20 PM

2015-06-23T16:20:35-04:00

As an instructor in an AIT environment when dealing with soldiers that have a mentality of they are getting what ever they need to be a civilian you have to snap them back to reality with the factors of Chapters failure to pass an APFT can be given other than honorable discharge. If the soldier shows continously failing to perform simple task then UCMJ with chapter of pattern of misconduct.
It can be taxing on you but if you have tried everything when all else fails calling home and talking with mom or dad can help. We had a Soldier who was nothing but trouble and told everyone when he got out he would move back in with his parents and they would take care of him...our commander called and talked with the parents and made them aware of what their child said...needless to say the following week he Soldiered up and is currently made the rabk of SPC in 18 months and showing that he can lead his peers.
I wish you the best of luck.

Response by 1SG David Lopez made Jun 23 at 2015 5:58 PM

2015-06-23T17:58:10-04:00

Be honest with this POS. Let him know your mission is to make a REAL SOLDIER out of him or kick his sorry behind out of our beloved Army. It is a privilege to serve, not a Right. Smoke his sorry behind and put him on every POS detail your company / platoon has. Keep up with the documentation to kick him out if his attitude does not change. But he needs to understand, that, your job as the Sergeant is to teach Men to be Soldiers, teach them to work as a team, teach them to be successful, teach them to complete the mission and put forth 100% and then some. If this Joker came in the Army to get experience, then he should embrace you and all your teaching to be successful; if not he can embrace the Devil in you to make every day he remains in the Army miserable, like the POS he is. Real Men / Real Soldiers earn your respect SSG. You do not need to respect this POS if he has not earned it. Be honest with him, communicate this to him. Treat him like the POS he is. Treat him with love and respect when he earns it. Your job is to make Men out of boys. I've read many responses and there are plenty of good advice, this is just my small piece of advice.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2015 6:23 PM

2015-06-23T18:23:44-04:00

Just my thoughts, but if you've been keeping the proper paperwork on his mishaps and his APFT failures shouldn't be an issue initiating the chapter paperwork. Of course it will be more leg work on your part proving to the CoC why he needs to be removed. 3 negative counselings correlating to the same problem is grounds for termination, or am I misinformed?

On the flip side, as some have stated, I've seen soldiers do complete 180s after a sit down where you can help them plan out their 1, 5, and 10 year goals and explain to them how the army can help, or hurt( in terms of an OtH discharge) and perhaps help them formulate a plan to be a team player and still work toward their goals.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2015 3:24 PM

2015-06-25T15:24:53-04:00

I've always found that when you make someone put their name on a project or task it changes their attitude. Make them responsible and give them a suspense it gives them ownership and puts them out there.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2015 3:37 PM

2015-06-25T15:37:51-04:00

Hand written letter to the parents explaining the deficiencies of their child in his chosen career field and the potential consequences for his actions should it continue. You'd be amazed how fast these kids will turn around their act when they know you got their folks address. This is a last resort, only done it once and it worked faster than the previous six months of paperwork, wall to wall, trying to get him booted, and other counseling forms people have.

Response by SSG Jeff Black made Jul 16 at 2015 9:25 AM

2015-07-16T09:25:58-04:00

Unfortunately when deciding whether to depart the Army after 14 years, this was one of the deciding factors. It has become an Army that I don't recognize. I've seen everything from disrespecting leadership to troops walking around in DCU's with their pants sagging...seriously, and those are only a couple examples in a very long list of disgusting behaviors that I observed. Trust me, when I witnessed these things the soldier in question always regretted running into me that day, but It got to the point that I was going to find myself in trouble because I couldn't stand to see troops represent our beloved military in that manner and I know that all the ass chewings in world would do no good in the long run. We have been overrun with these types of soldiers to the point where it is easy to forget that hidden behind a wall of these shitbags are a load of red blooded Americans who are there to serve and do it with honor. Things wont change until policy changes. This means that recruiting standards will have to be altered and once enlisted, the requirements to chapter a soldier wont involve a 6 inch stack of article 15s and counseling statements. It will mean a half inch stack and senior leaderships willingness to listen to those who know these soldiers the best, the NCO.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2015 10:59 PM

2015-07-25T22:59:34-04:00

I would say that your assumption and instincts are correct. I may be new to the army but I joined late because of college and the oil field. A lot of the newer kids to my unit are for a better word soft, entitled, and completely lack any fortitude. They don't understand how hard life really can be or how good they have it. The question is how do you get them to understand. I think showing them examples and doing unto them what can happen breeds greater results.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Jul 25 at 2015 11:44 PM

2015-07-25T23:44:22-04:00

I'd have an informal talk with your command sergeant major and see what they have to suggest. I bet they help find a way around this issue.