How do you handle your Chief saying "This is how we have always done it" when you clearly know its against regs?

2017-12-06T08:36:13-05:00

You are in charge of a division and you notice your people skipping steps (some safety related) and you correct them and tell them to go back and do it again. They answer to you "that is how we have always done it." You wonder how long this has been going on, so you go to your chief and ask them about the procedure and they state "this is just how it is always done sir. Dont fix what isnt broken." How do you handle this situation tactfully?

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Dec 6 at 2017 8:39 AM

2017-12-06T08:39:24-05:00

Being able to show him the proper procedure, and the regs should be all that is needed, hopefully he doesn't take offense to either.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2017 8:58 AM

2017-12-06T08:58:22-05:00

As a Chief and an Officer I can tell you that you need to help fix the problem, especially if it is safety related. Take the Chief off to the side (meet with him in your stateroom or the Chief's mess) discuss the issue and have all your ducks in a row. Tell him your true concerns, if you are just looking to follow some stupid rule the Chief will see right through you. If you have a good Chief then they will support your decision and you will gain their respect. If not then look to other senior enlisted leadership for help like the CMC. In my experience Chiefs run the Navy, Junior Officers are their to uphold standards, gain leadership skills, and learn tactics. This is your opportunity to learn some leadership skills.

Response by CWO3 Randy Weston made Dec 6 at 2017 9:55 AM

2017-12-06T09:55:40-05:00

Quite simple. "It does not make it right". Honestly, when dealing with your Chief, be direct, succinct and to the point. If they are worth their salt, they will appreciate it. Yes, some steps can be adjusted, however if it is safety related, there is no compromise.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2017 10:24 AM

2017-12-06T10:24:38-05:00

Just so you know I am dedicated to what I say, I still think 16 September 1992 was the best day of my life. This is proudly displayed in my office today.

Response by SCPO Jason McLaughlin made Dec 6 at 2017 10:24 AM

2017-12-06T10:24:46-05:00

IMHO, The answer depends on the situation. Are the steps being skipped derived from a self-developed SOP, or is it a PMS action? If it is the first, ask the Chief why the steps are being skipped (obsolescence, unnecessary, etc.), judge the merits of his his/her explanation, direct the immediate editing of the SOP to reflect the new process. If it is the second, that is gundecking, if the step is obsolete or unnecessary there is a process to get it removed, but has to be approved through Big Navy PMS. You need to direct the Chief to follow the required steps immediately. I would also recommend conducting random spot checks on maintenance to see if there are other examples of gundecking.

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Dec 6 at 2017 10:44 AM

2017-12-06T10:44:12-05:00

Pretty sure every officer has run into this... My 2cents is never to skirt safety issues, as they are there for a reason.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Dec 6 at 2017 10:49 AM

2017-12-06T10:49:05-05:00

I'm seeing this from a process improvement point of view. If the workers have self-altered a procedure to improve their productivity, it's time to take an organized look at the process with an eye on improvement. Although I recommend "Lean" techniques or a Service-approved variation of them, most any orderly look at the process, its outcomes, and specifications will lead to improvement. My answer to the Chief would emphasize the need to identify the problem, state safety concerns, and direct the process improvement effort. My intent would be to develop an improved process that met safety requirements, time standards, and quality measures. The "employees" must be involved in improving the process so they have complete buy-in to the changes. Document the process, changes, and new process and seek chain of command permission to modify the process (if necessary) and implement the changes. (BTW there should be a check point early in the effort to check if the original process meets all standards and the problem is discipline, not process.)

Response by SSgt Harvey "Skip" Porter made Dec 6 at 2017 11:00 AM

2017-12-06T11:00:17-05:00

My thought on that is:
Anyone can do things the way we’ve always done them. It takes brain power and a thought process to do and understand new things.

Peace!

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2017 11:03 AM

2017-12-06T11:03:38-05:00

Had a similar situation when I worked at a pizza place. The step in question was to sweep up cornflour after every certain number of pizzas. The manager decided to skip that step because he thought it was unnecessary and that it impeded productivity. For the first three weeks the plan worked great, everything went much smoother and we were able to get pizzas out the door a bit quicker. The next week on a Tuesday the reason for the policy became clear when someone slipped and really hurt their back. Obviously, the manager was fired as it was his responsibility.

So my recommendation is to discover what reason the reg existed for and specifically find places where it was violated and caused incidents. That'll make it much easier to convince the chief of how serious it is.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Dec 6 at 2017 11:33 AM

2017-12-06T11:33:15-05:00

Coffee call on the HMMWV hood at the back of the motor pool. Ran into several "always been" issues and the best way is to put it to bed and "starting today" this is how we're doing it. Short cuts are great until something bad happens , then no one's interested in the "always beens or always dones". Doing it rite is always the best way unless bullets are flying and everything's gone to heck and getting it done by any means is the only means to accomplish your mission. But that's just my opinion.

Response by Maj John Bell made Dec 6 at 2017 12:36 PM

2017-12-06T12:36:14-05:00

The conversation goes like this

1) "Okay Gunny... (in your case Chief) run me through the pros AND cons of doing it this way."
2) "Gunny... I foresee the following risks that you have not adequately addressed. Did you not account for them?, or have I missed something?"

then either 3a) or 3b)

3a) "I understand. That makes sense. Now let's go make our case to the CO. But until he/she buys in, we go by the book."

3b) "Gunny, we're betting ________ [insert as needed: the safety of our Marines, a lot of government dollars, our reputations as competent professionals] I'm not buying in, and we're going to go by the book, until you can make a stronger case. All right?"

Response by SPC David Willis made Dec 6 at 2017 1:24 PM

2017-12-06T13:24:57-05:00

Honestly if you're the ranking officer you pull him/her aside and remind him/her of the rank structure and tell him/her from now on he/she will be doing it in a different way. Also if you're the ranking officer in that group you need to change it out of self preservation. Your boss wont take "well my guys said they always did it that way so we kept doing it and then Carl got chopped in half and now there are bits of him in my hair" as an excuse.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Dec 6 at 2017 6:04 PM

2017-12-06T18:04:53-05:00

Well a one on one is the best way to handle something tactfully. This shouldn't be too hard to plead your case considering we've had aircraft falling out of the sky for the past couple years all covered by the mainstream media. Skipping steps have consequences and we're seeing the consequences in the news all the time.

Response by CPO Mark Robinson made Dec 6 at 2017 7:16 PM

2017-12-06T19:16:39-05:00

When I reported for duty in 1980 that was how it was done. "Compliance to written instruction", screw that you do it the way I tell you. Those idiots who wrote the operating procedures don't know squat about operating a ship. So of course thats how I learned to get things done. Funny how things never worked quite right and somehow broke down a lot.

Response by MSgt John McGowan made Dec 6 at 2017 7:40 PM

2017-12-06T19:40:11-05:00

ENS. trey Shsdow. Sometimes things are written and put in effect that made me guestion some of the requitments. It would make a difference if it is done service wide. If it’s safety, stop it yesterday. I did have a man hurt that worked for me once, needless to say it didn’t go over well.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2017 7:46 PM

2017-12-06T19:46:34-05:00

Safety first and behind doors conversation explaining why the Teams safety is paramount to mission success!

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Dec 10 at 2017 11:20 AM

2017-12-10T11:20:16-05:00

Chief, it is broken. Unbreak it. Now. Just because you're an ensign, doesn't make the chief always right. If you KNOW it's wrong, fix it.

Response by 1SG Robert Shaver made Dec 15 at 2017 8:35 PM

2017-12-15T20:35:38-05:00

If it is a safety issue enforce the standard. But first meet with the Chief and have documentation! If the Chief can prove the documentation is wrong. Make a pact that you and the Chief will enter an update to the documentation. Consider taking the lead on the task. It will make the Chief know you are a team player and a leader.

Response by CPO Nate S. made Jan 13 at 2018 3:57 PM

2018-01-13T15:57:45-05:00

The Chief's obligation is to get things done right the 1st time. The role of your Chief as both a skilled technician and a leader is critical. If the Chief does not understand this then there is a problem!

Yes:

- Speak privately with the Chief.

- Get a copy of the book (It's Your Ship). Read this 11 page book report before sharing it with the Chief (http://www.gary-tomlinson.com/media/Book_Report_-_Its_Your_Ship.pdf).

- If the situation does not improve speak with the CMC.

Also, LCDR Wright is very correct "Chief's run the US Navy". Expect the Chief run things well, but don't take a threatening tone. Also, never forget to thank your sailors for a job well done. One morning at quarters try saying, only if it is true, something like "I noticed (Sailor's name) doing a great job on (whatever the task). I expect all of you to continue to do a great job. Remember its our ship and we can make it better." Sometimes, being told they are doing a good job is actually, important!

404 Not Found

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2018 10:32 AM

2018-02-15T10:32:29-05:00

The thing that really irks the hell out of me is the phrase "we've always done it that way" Way to tick me off. There is absolutely no reason to have this mind set. I mean, I'm a "change is bad" kind of guy but there's always room for process improvement.

I'm the 'safety guy' where I work. No excuses in skipped safety steps. I will explain why it is, and what could happen as tactfully as possible.

Look at the Forrestal fire in 67. The way I understand it is one team says, lets skip this safety step and the bird leaves 2 seconds earlier. Another team says lets skip this safety step and the bird leaves 2 seconds earlier. Unfortunately, those were the only two safeties in place to prevent premature launch of the Zuni missile and because those teams didn't communicate their skipped steps to each other... boom.

Response by CWO3 Bryan Luciani made Feb 15 at 2018 1:31 PM

2018-02-15T13:31:04-05:00

First thing is stop them immediately. Then go find Chief and tell him what you observed. Then tell the Chief that skipping safety and procedural steps is unacceptable. I was a Chief and Senior Chief and a Warrant Officer. Never were safety violations and skipping procedure acceptable on my watch. If it needs to change then submit a feedback report to NavSea or whomever needs to change it. If you have to walk on glass around your Chief, then your Chief has forgotten his primary mandate.

Response by 1SG Clifford Barnes made Feb 28 at 2018 10:14 PM

2018-02-28T22:14:07-05:00

Tell them we do things properly so go back and do it correctly talk to them the same way you want to be talked to. Get their respect and they will give you theirs hooah

Response by PO1 Mile Oconnell made Mar 1 at 2018 4:25 PM

2018-03-01T16:25:02-05:00

1st you do as you are told,then if yo u are sure you are correct ask why it is not followed.
If you then have an issue then you.need to address the chain of Command.
Insure of what your specific problems are will dictate direction

Response by MSgt Kerry Lundy made Mar 3 at 2018 1:14 PM

2018-03-03T13:14:19-05:00

I have been in this position but with a different twist it was the OIC who was asking me to compromise procedures to hurry up and get a piece of equipment back on line. My response to him was "Capt. let's go and get a cup of coffee" that was to get us out earshot of the men who were working while we discussed it. I was well known to not skip steps or violate safety. My shop maintained cargo loading equipment/vehicles for C130,C141,C123 and C5A aircraft. Imagine the damage that would occur if a 10,000 pound cargo pallet fell on the ramp of one of these aircraft due to a skipped maint. step or inspection step. Safety and equipment readiness is the responsibility of everyone. When you start skipping steps you start compromising possible mission accomplishment and endangering lives. ENS Trey Shadow remember this PRAISE IN PUBLIC and CORRECT IN PRIVATE this will get the job done correct the first time and earn you the respect of your men. One failed mission as a result of a missed or skipped step and it could very well end your Chief"s career and yours.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2018 2:18 PM

2018-03-03T14:18:37-05:00

I used to DESPISE that expression because I did hear it. As the responsible officer (when I heard this), I advised my Chief/LPO that we would no longer do "it" that way and provided an alternative or two. I also ALWAYS followed up to ensure I wasn't going to be patronized.

Response by Capt Bob Soldner made May 16 at 2020 4:20 PM

2020-05-16T16:20:42-04:00

Always have a ref available. Be it a Navy or Marine Corps reg. That's what they are published for.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 22 at 2021 9:41 PM

2021-05-22T21:41:02-04:00

I would gather all the related leaders of the processes that are not following regulations and have a meeting. I would invite an expert to assist me. I would show them the regulations and say there will be no deviations. Conforming to safety standards is paramount, and should people get hurt the reprucussions will be dire. I would have Memorandums of Agreement for each individual for their signature. The last part is for me is to monitor the processes to confirm they are comforming.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2021 5:27 PM

2021-05-23T17:27:08-04:00

Lead, follow, or get out of the way. That's hard when afloat. Tell Chief he's on special assignment to prove his theory. Pending his results you make the call per the regs.