How does a military veteran lead civilians?

SGT Christopher Churilla — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:12:27 -0400

I am a veteran with over 15 years of combined service. I am currently going to school and studying journalism.

I am taking a class which entails working on the school newspaper. I am the Editor in Chief for this semester and have been told by the other staff members my style comes across as controlling, demanding and unappreciative.

They have also told me they see us as equals rather my subordinates and even got offended when I referred to them as such. The faculty advisor came to me nearly in tears and told me how offensive that remark was.

I attempted to set up a meeting with them to try to resolve this and I even got pushback on that, being told I was acting unprofessionally and that it was unrealistic of me to expect them to try to meet at a time I was available.

In hindsight I think I should have asked for a meeting at the beginning of the semester to clearly define our roles and responsibilities, but I'm concerned this situation is past the point of any peaceful solution.

Does anyone have guidance on how I should proceed in this?

Thank you.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Oct 16 at 2019 10:19 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:19:35 -0400

Same way any other civilian boss. Personality, persuasion and demonstrated competence. You don't have a rank to flex anymore, now you have to actually LEAD, leverage personalities, weight strengths and weakness, assign personnel accordingly, etc...

Response by LTC Eugene Chu made Oct 16 at 2019 10:23 AM

LTC Eugene Chu — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:23:38 -0400

I partially understand your situation since earned my undergraduate and MBA degrees after active duty experience. To proceed with the situation, understand that even with your experience and age, you have to show empathy to those that you work with. For an Army example of empathetic and confident leadership leadership, look up Schofield's Definition of Discipline on Google or Bing. In an 1879 speech at West Point, Major General Schofield spoke about treatment of others.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Oct 16 at 2019 10:39 AM

SSG Brian G. — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:39:09 -0400

In a few words? Welcome to the land of snowflakes...

You lead by first realizing that not everyone is going to like you, your style or the fact that YOU are in charge and not them. Lead by example. Show up for work early, stay late, etc. The same basics as the military but understand that these are civilians vs military. When you could bark an order to a private, you cannot do that with civvies. You ask/tell them what you want and if they don't do it then you counsel them.

You are in charge... on paper. The trick is in letting them THINK that you are equals. That you are not their boss and that they work for you.

Response by Cpl Andrew Tucker made Oct 16 at 2019 11:00 AM

Cpl Andrew Tucker — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 11:00:40 -0400

I don't know about you, but I worked with a few OGA types in country. One of the things that "Bob" said that stuck with me is that the CIA doesn't allow mirrors during training at the Farm. This is to help prevent what they call "mirror philosophy". Breaking it down Barney style, no one else sees things the way you do. You can't expect people understand naturally what comes to you. You thought you were acting like a good NCO, when in reality you were probably being a dick, or at least perceived to be a dick.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2019 11:01 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 11:01:21 -0400

I kind dove used to have the same mindset and it did not go well and caused me way too much unnecessary stress then there needed to be. I recommend slowly focusing on adjusting your leadership to a more lead the way you wanted to be treated when you weren't in charge. If you preferred to. E micromanaged, spoken down to, controlled, and unappreciated. Well then, I think we found the problem. Love for your subordinates goes a very long way. Once they know you trust and care about them, then your life should slowly start getting a little better.

Response by PFC Donnie Harold Harris made Oct 16 at 2019 11:02 AM

PFC Donnie Harold Harris — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 11:02:26 -0400

By example.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2019 11:08 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 11:08:19 -0400

With kid gloves, or not. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL4uESRCnv8

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Response by SN Donald Hoffman made Oct 16 at 2019 11:14 AM

SN Donald Hoffman — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 11:14:33 -0400

Unfortunately no. Your interpretation of the issue is on point. Your request for a meeting was correct. Unfortunately, the group feels they are correct, and it’s up to you to convert to their way of thinking. So yes, your correct in you synopsis of the situation.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2019 11:28 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 11:28:47 -0400

SGT Christopher Churilla sounds like you're in a truly liberal arts school. Where everything is offensive, and anyone in any position of leadership is expected to spoon feed the workers everything they need.
There really isn't any leading here. It sounds like the school has maintained that position title, but it is just a title, and not an actual thing. When even the faculty advisor comes crying that your use of the phrase subordinate is offensive, you just might be in the wrong place. Might be best to just "Be Like Water" until you accomplish what you're there for.
There may be underlying disrespect/disdain for you because you a military. I live in Columbia, MO, where the J-School is next to God. Many of the J-students outwardly have shown disdain towards military folk. I don't know if it is being taught to them by faculty (yeah...I know, but I try giving the benefit of the doubt). Hell, they were pretty negative towards any law enforcement when I worked as a police officer on campus!
It does not sound like it is in your blood to coddle them, as they (and, apparently, the faculty) expect you to. Do not change your ways. You are just trying to give them a dose of the real world before they actually get out in to it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2019 12:03 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:03:23 -0400

Blah blah something millennials blah blah

Good leaders adapt. Leadership is not about the leader it’s about the lead. If you’re surprised that military leadership styles don’t fly in a college environment then quite honestly you’re a bit naive.

It’s not about them being soft or being snowflakes or any of the other tough guy in a pickup truck on youtube buzzwords. It’s about a job. Your job is to produce a quality product. You have “employees” who can walk away at a moments notice an have far more rights and resources for redress if they don’t like their work environment. If EVERYONE in the room is saying the same basic thing...stop and consider that you might be the problem?

Be open with them. Explain your background and why you communicate the way that you do. Listen to their concerns and come to a compromise that achieves the end goal, putting out a decent newspaper.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Oct 16 at 2019 12:16 PM

MSgt Michael Smith — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:16:08 -0400

You need to realize that these people are students, paying for an opportunity to learn and grow. They don't know nor understand formal leadership and management. They don't follow orders. Most haven't probably even held a full-time job. You can't boss them around like a soldier. They are not your subordinates, they are your team, and you must see them that way. Management and leadership is FAR FAR less formal in the civilian world, so much so that unless you are a formal-titled boss (like the Professor) you have next to no authority and must persuade those you work with that they should trust you. Right now you have no credibility with your team. Prove to them that you are worth being listened to and things will change for you.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Oct 16 at 2019 12:32 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:32:42 -0400

Number one, you are not in the Army, they are your peers in college. You all have to excel, so Leader for a day is fine, but you should approach it as that are your Team, a leader would not have to refer to them as subordinates, your title contracted that fact. Demanding a meeting that fits your schedule is disrespectful of other STUDENTS, you should have thrown a time out and see what was recommended. As a leader I often look to see when all are available, unless of course it is time sensitive, in that case I would accept who could and could not be present.

I am not saying that you do not take charge, I am saying that leaders adapt to the environment. You in this regard are the only one with military background. Lead by example. Thank you for your service.

Response by LCDR Joshua Gillespie made Oct 16 at 2019 12:49 PM

LCDR Joshua Gillespie — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:49:03 -0400

Welcome to the mismanaged, surrealistic nightmare that is civilian life (just kidding...well, kinda).

Seriously however-The trick is this: The Army gave you rank which had automatic authority, and a well-structured set of regulations to back it up. We don't have that out here...not even close. Job titles are "supposed" to define some kind of hierarchy...but the truth is that politics, money, and fear pretty much determine who's voice gets listened to, and whom is ignored. The most junior person in a plant may hold more sway than the general manager if they just "happen" to be the CEO's frat brother's kid.

Leading under these circumstances requires the ability to navigate these treacherous waters without letting anyone know you can. Make friends, get to know folks...find that group of people who you genuinely enjoy working with, and let them "show you the ropes". Make allies...but do it naturally, and without being "methodical".

Always bear in mind that people are only there to get what's theirs. Even the "dedicated" workers aren't willing to work for free (or less than what they deem fair). Everyone would (and sometimes could) be doing something else, and if your management style costs the company productivity or talent...you, not they, will pay the price.

Get used to the idea that no one "gets" who/what you were unless they shared the same experiences. To most of 'em, you went into the Army because (a) you had no other option, or (b) were naive. At best, they figure if you were good there, or anything about the Army was worth your time...you wouldn't be "here" now. It's rotten to the core, but that's how many view it.

Oh, and one more thing...there is ZERO tolerance for being "better" than your boss. The Military has this wonderful cultural staple of the relationship between the junior officer and the platoon/company NCO...yeah, it doesn't exist out here. If "Junior" is in the corner office, the C-Suite figures he's there because he can do what you can't. The "work around" is this: Junior doesn't know crap (most of the time), and is eager to pawn off responsibility (at least a Butter Bar will try and look smart). Those in control just want results...make yourself indispensable without becoming "threatening"...and you'll end up climbing (a little) in time. More to the point, you may just stick around while others get laid off.

Hang in there...every time is sucks, just remind yourself you (usually) don't have to put up with "our" particular brand of insanity any longer ;)

Response by SGT Chris Stephens made Oct 16 at 2019 1:05 PM

SGT Chris Stephens — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:05:02 -0400

I was in PAO while in the Army as well, and went on to work for my school's newspaper when I got out. It definitely isn't the military. You have to sit down and have an adult conversation with them. What do you expect out of them and what do they expect out of you? You probably shouldn't have used the word subordinates to them since it is a school newspaper and not a real-world job. A newspaper is supposed to be a team effort. Your job is to encourage them and to help them become better journalists. But, if you go around demanding things and not treating them with respect, you're only going to be the EIC this one semester.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2019 1:16 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:16:28 -0400

Not necessarily the answer but there was a great scene/dialogue in the movie Emerald Forest. Script except below (and trailer link).

“You are the chief. Tell him to come and visit.”

“He can choose. If I tell a man to do what he does not want to do I am no longer chief“

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWSRFAqNjyA

The Emerald Forest (1985) Trailer

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Response by SPC Margaret Higgins made Oct 16 at 2019 1:37 PM

SPC Margaret Higgins — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:37:46 -0400

SGT Christopher Churilla: I am a Facebook coach. I attempt to save lives; on Facebook. I attempt to: motivate; inspire; and Love the Active Duty troops; and, the Veterans; in my groups.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Oct 16 at 2019 1:56 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:56:45 -0400

What has worked for me was:
- Define roles and expectations early (what I think you do, what you think you do, what you're going to do). Like within the first week early.
- Define decision making boundaries and right and left limits. (everything between these posts are yours, if you need to push past give me a heads up and get a check or hold before proceeding, usually geared towards cost, codes or external perceptions).
- Checking on things doesn't equal distrust it equals interest in the process.
- And finally what can I do to clear the way and streamline policies , procedures or processes to help you succeed.
Kind of like PCC's and PCI's tailored to a civilian audience.
You're probably going to get 100 different styles and approaches that are successful and match different folks personalities and work habits. You have to tailor the approach to the maturity, experience and proficiency level of your crew.
My opinion:
Sounds like your advisor needs to get a grip on reality. They should be preparing folks for the workforce and getting them accustomed to production time lines, deadlines and interpersonal relationships in the workforce. Life is not the forest of feelings and they will have to meet time hacks, and datelines and work with and for demanding folks. They also in my opinion should have provided you with guidance, performance measures, expectations and a syllabus of how to be a successful Editor in Chief. Try a reset and see if you can salvage the situation.

Response by SFC Jim Mergott made Oct 16 at 2019 2:34 PM

SFC Jim Mergott — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:34:45 -0400

Yes. As we were taught in the military , being an effective leader you must be able to influence others to accomplish a task. Okay, so, having said that . In a combat situation it is acceptable to be aggressive . I mean hey success means life or death. But this is far from the situation in the civilian world. To be effective you must be empathetic to subordinates. You will find that they will perform more willingly if take this approach.

Response by MSgt James Slawson made Oct 16 at 2019 2:50 PM

MSgt James Slawson — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:50:07 -0400

First thing is to understand your role. Your personnel do not work for you, you work for them meaning you are there to support them. When it comes to meetings you let them suggest the time and adjust to them. Ensure they understand you are there to support and help them and need their expertise to complete the task. Without them you are a leader of nothing. You need to demonstrate your skills and expertise by listening and joining them in resolving tasks or issues. Then you need to lead them by proposing or implementing the vision you all as a team created.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2019 3:04 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:04:15 -0400

Way too much information to put in one post. Also, several books to read will take more time than you have left in the semester. John C Maxwell:
* Ethics 101
* Developing the leader within you
* Developing the leaders around you
* The 5 levels of leadership
* The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership
(https://www.speakersbase.com/uploads/3567e22e8083ad294bab525f9c0b631c57f40f2b [login to see] .pdf)
And so many other leadership/relationship books!

There are so many aspects of military leadership to be found in the above books. In the civilian world it is more about delivery then it is execution. It is learning the strengths and weaknesses early on and how to amplify those strengths for growth.

You have the skills to be a great leader. You need to learn a different approach to delivery. Real simple - but not easy.

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Response by CSM Arthur La Rue made Oct 16 at 2019 5:17 PM

CSM Arthur La Rue — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:17:30 -0400

Wow. Based upon your story, I’d have to agree with them. I’m also wondering about your preferred leadership style. You are a student; just like them. Your job is to publish the paper. Your job is not to to teach, coach, or mentor your peers. Apologise for being a dick. Remind them that you’re now learning how to “ manage”, not lead, and there will be a transition period. Ask them for a re-do and get your paper published, as a team.

Response by CPL Gary Pifer made Oct 16 at 2019 6:29 PM

CPL Gary Pifer — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 18:29:35 -0400

Wouldn't even bother with today's kids... I am 63 and still under the GI bill. Just tired of these crybabies.. You better agree with them 100% or the tantrums will rage. I complained about the kids using the F word during writing class and the whole class including the instructor turned on me. I have come close to blows numerous times.. The kids are always high on Pot vape. I have been called a lot of names from pedifile, MF, Ignorant and whitey ( by white kids)... ( Even though Iam part African American) .. most of the kids are good... but they are PC brainwashed... and f-crazy... as with your crying instructor.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Oct 16 at 2019 7:20 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 19:20:40 -0400

You are trying to lead peers, where you are just that, peers. You have to use different leadership tools. You are providing direction and motivation. You have to get them all on board with the same goal. You're coming from a background where the mission is universal, it isn't mutually understood or its imperative nature. You have to get them to agree on that mission and the mutually defined objectives. Get buy in. Once you have buy in, you go back To what was agreed on.

Journalism students are already going to be non-hierarchical and resistant to central control.

Advice: bring them together. Apologize. Explain what you were trying to do. Explain that you were taking on the role of editor. What would he have done if they were in your shoes? Take some lumps. Ask them what they think that means. Unless the are cowards, you'll get feedback. Take it in. You are trying to repair, while trying to have them understand you had a job to do that they them selves could be asked To perform.
Reiterate what the mission is, get agreement on that. Then build it Barney style. So if this is our mission, these are the things we must do to achieve it. Get input from them even I find you hate it. Get buy in. Build a situation where they are building assignments within a agreed frame work. Set deadlines collaboratively. Write it all down. Collaborate and buy in. That is what you need. They are likely non-linear thinkers and may not fully appreciate the publication process. You need to get them on board so you ain't fighting them the whole way.

Before you meet, see the advisor and explain what you are doing. So you are not fighting them too.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2019 7:38 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 19:38:59 -0400

I had this big thing typed up and now it's gone. Dang it!
In short, you are a student and so are they. You all are the same "rank" and your title is titular, you have the position without authority. I wouldn't call anyone a subordinate, civilian or military side. If I have to remind someone of my position or rank.....I've done something wrong. Or they are naive and don't realize consequences to their actions. Can you as a student discipline or do anything to them? Probably not.
Also I found that although I've been in mid-tier management for over 10 years with employees up to 150 under my wing and also a squad leader for maybe 8-10 years even without the title, I made it an effort to show appreciation even for the standard being completed. I dont take my military leadership background and use that as a reason or excuse for being firm and hitting appointments on time. That begins the idea of how strict you may be when you actually may not. If anything the best feature you bring from the military is professionalism.
At this point get some humble pie snd have at it. Ask if they can be free to meet individually if they wish and on their time. They are students. With other classes. And a life. And homework. Work to their schedule and explain how you came of strong and wish to make it right. What do they want from you. Instead of what you want from them.

Response by LTJG Richard Bruce made Oct 16 at 2019 7:52 PM

LTJG Richard Bruce — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 19:52:42 -0400

Who is your boss? Have they told you what they want and when do they want it? Treat others are you want to be treated.

Response by SP5 Dennis Loberger made Oct 16 at 2019 8:58 PM

SP5 Dennis Loberger — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 20:58:26 -0400

The fact is you are all students and therefor are equals. You have been appointed as the editor-in-chief. You do not determine their pay and write their checks. Even in an environment where you are the "boss" and paid accordingly, you are most effective if you solicit their ideas, incorporate them when you can and demonstrate your appreciation for their contributions and effort. When doing so, they will do anything with you and for you. You also apparently made an error in calling for a meeting at a specific time without consulting them first. The best way to handle that would have been to say you wanted to get everyone together and soliciting the best times for each of them. In the civilian world, if you have to show them your stripes, you shouldn't have them. Being assertive is necessary, being aggressive is counter productive. Particularly in a school environment it is important to be flexible, be personal and listen. I once worked for a District Manager who would walk the floor with us and solicit ideas on things we can do to take it up a notch. It seems we always had it in us to do so. We loved seeing him. It turns out that, in talking to other stores, they had the same new ideas we did on how to improve. Damn, he was good. He went on to become President of our company. Truly hope this helps. Best of luck.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Oct 16 at 2019 11:18 PM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 23:18:45 -0400

Well, you learned one lesson. You are not a Sergeant and your fellow students aren't Privates. You were using combat leadership when you needed to use staff leadership. OK, you've tried to get a meeting with the entire group and that didn't work, try going the more time consuming, but more flattering to your people, route by going to them individually (it's a great ego stroker if nothing else), consider what opinion each person you talk with might have of you and if the person is one of your detractors, do what you need to do to start anew. When you seem to be at least a truce, explain what your vision for the paper is for the semester you're the editor (don't over emphasize that) and see if you can get each individual to buy into that vision. Once they get on board, you've got to get the individual to think that he came up with their role in achieving your vision, when in fact your planting the seeds of what you want them to do in their mind. Good luck!

Response by MSgt James "Buck" Buchanan made Oct 18 at 2019 12:03 PM

MSgt James "Buck" Buchanan — Fri, 18 Oct 2019 12:03:15 -0400

You my friend seem to be s victim of the weakening of our culture where rules are no longer taught, much less enforced. These "kids" you're likely in school with are used to having things their way and have done so since they were about 18 months old. No discipline at home, none allowed in the schools, so when you try to treat them like and teach them to be responsible they throw up the "I'm offended" flag and leave to to feel like a criminal. Stick to your "guns", require some order, and if they can't put up with it just remind them that when they graduate their likelihood of real employment in their utopian filed of endeavour probably won't happen if they can't show teamwork and discipline.

Response by PFC Donnie Harold Harris made Oct 19 at 2019 1:30 PM

PFC Donnie Harold Harris — Sat, 19 Oct 2019 13:30:18 -0400

YOU KNOW WHAT PERFESSIOMALIZM IS. I WOULD JUST GET THE BEST GRADE AND MOVE ON.

Response by Cpl James R. " Jim" Gossett Jr made Oct 21 at 2019 6:42 PM

Cpl James R. " Jim" Gossett Jr — Mon, 21 Oct 2019 18:42:44 -0400

Probably does.../You are regimented, they are unruly....