How does each service view transitions from enlisted to officer

2015-06-28T14:19:57-04:00

In the Navy we call it going to the Dark Side. I've encouraged many of my E6 and below to take this route due to extremely poor advancement opportunity. Even the folks with advanced degrees pass on it. They want to be a Navy Chief. As a Chief my self I completely understand. Does the drive to become senior enlisted exist in other services?

Response by LTC John Shaw made Jun 28 at 2015 8:34 PM

2015-06-28T20:34:48-04:00

You are both right, Senior NCO have far more influence than Junior officers and it takes many years for the pay to reach even. Bottom line, for some it is opportunity in the officer Corps to start again and train for a different experience.
The Reserves and National Guard is the greatest beneficiary of these transfers better for the experiences and ideas, not that we always know how to take advantage of the skills and capabilities. Commissioned officers have 28 years up to O-5, I hit that MRD 2016 and will be out. I can see a significant advantage to enlisting for 4-8 years then moving to the warrant officer or officer rank.
I will be in retired reserve for 10 years prior to any retirement pay, but it will be nice to focus on one job and have weekends for the family. I have always had 2-3 weekends a month for Reserves for the last 30 years.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 29 at 2015 9:54 PM

2015-06-29T21:54:28-04:00

I did generally have more respect for LDO's/CWO's than I did for Ensign Billy Bobo fresh out of Annapolis/OCS/ROTC.

Response by MAJ Vic Artiga made Jun 30 at 2015 12:27 PM

2015-06-30T12:27:11-04:00

I started my career as an enlisted Soldier and ended it as a major. Being prior enlisted did give me a better understanding of what life was like for the Soldiers. When I was in the field artillery most of my NCOs would tell me the same thing, "I see how your guys (officers) get treated and I want no part of it". I later switched to intelligence. Most of my NCOs there saw becoming a warrant officer was a better route.

Response by LT Bill Rockett made Jun 30 at 2015 4:05 PM

2015-06-30T16:05:46-04:00

Speaking from the perspective of being a Maverick (enlisted to officer), I see it a bit differently. I agree that it is an honorable choice to continue to progress through the ranks to the most prestigious and influential rank of E-9 (Master Chief), but there are a number of jobs that can't be done as an enlisted person like Pilot, NFO (Naval Flight Officer), Doctor, Nurse, etc. that require the rank of O-1 and above. I think if one desires to do certain jobs or even to be able to command a ship, squadron, Intelligence Unit, etc. the jump to Officer is necessary.

Response by MAJ Bill Maynard made Jun 30 at 2015 5:15 PM

2015-06-30T17:15:52-04:00

Each branch will always have those that don't look favorable upon those that choose the commissioning route. I was enlisted first, then went to OCS. I'm glad I did. I encourage any enlisted personnel who thinks they can serve as a commissioned officer to do so. My son is an Army National Guard Soldier. He was also an ROTC cadet but is no longer. Whether he remains enlisted or gets commissioned or even warrant, I am confident that he will do well which ever path he chooses. No one is forced to choose a path: enlisted, warrant, or commissioned. But we each do choose one of those three paths...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2015 5:47 PM

2015-06-30T17:47:59-04:00

Most Army folks are pretty conscious of the pay gap; however, no one envies the officer's job, either. The happy medium is going nurse, PA, or doctor. That feels like a logical career progression to many in the enlisted medical ranks at least.

Response by LCpl Steve Smith made Jun 30 at 2015 6:32 PM

2015-06-30T18:32:24-04:00

For me when I was on active duty, I and many others in a Victor unit (Grunt Unit) appreciated when we had a Mustang in-charge. I was lucky enough to have my section O.I.C be a Mustang and Our Battalion Commander be one too. Mustangs knew what it was like to be an enlisted person and what we when through as enlisted compared to an Officer so they would lead in a different way from the officers that Just went through O.C.S. from collage. Mustangs would sometimes the 1st (Officers) to jump in and help he's enlisted with duty's that would require physical hands on work. Now I'm not saying non mustangs didn't get down and dirty with their enlisted people when needed, I'm sure hey do. It just from my experience Mustangs jump in faster and treat their people a little better (For The most Part) because they went through the same shitty duty's while they were enlisted as we did when they were officers.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2015 8:17 PM

2015-06-30T20:17:21-04:00

I started out enlisted in the National Guard and always intended to at least become an NCO before comissioning. However not being able to find a civilian job and have an excellent option to commission active duty Navy, I went for it. Plenty of people in the Guard joked about going officer as going to the 'dark side,' but I received nothing but support and encouragement in my career choice. And while plenty of NCO's I have known would never want to commission they tend to show more respect to a prior enlisted officer.

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Jul 1 at 2015 12:15 AM

2015-07-01T00:15:18-04:00

The Army has quite a bit of bias against former enlisted. They are still never regarded as 'one of the guys' and the Army keeps adding arbitrary roadblocks (Active federal service time limits, which have been getting shorter ect...) Frankly, the Army would rather have a high school kid before they would rather have enlisted swine. It is even in our regs if a cadet is present, they would take command over an NCO in the unlikely event that all the officers are killed. You'll also find that bias against enlisted continues into the civilian world. I've a buddy that almost had to fire his production manager who didn't like it when he found out his boss for over a year was a former NCO. I know my policy as a civilian will be to never hire them. I need employees that are accustomed to following the rules not accustomed to finding creative ways to interpret their way around them.

Response by Maj Marty Greene made Jul 1 at 2015 1:24 PM

2015-07-01T13:24:26-04:00

When I and thousands of others were commissioned in 1980, I had ten years service and was an E-6. My initial findings were as described, many appreciated us "Mavericks." However, the AF didn't expect us to stay past Captain. When we did, promotions slowed down, but we hung with it. We did the "officer things" of the time, i.e. Master's Degrees, community involvement, joined the Club, etc. We caused a logjam in the promotion cycle and they responded with some pretty nasty SERBs. Their reasoning, published at the time, were "you already have your 20, you can retire." They said nothing about career advancement, remote tours, great OPRs, etc. They would rather "save" a 17 yr poor Major than keep a 24 yr excellent Major. Yes, I was SERB'd, and I was bitter. However, some things come around and 15 yrs later they asked me to come back for two years (pictured)! I retired again in 2011!

Response by CW4 Abdulaziz Bulling made Jul 1 at 2015 2:57 PM

2015-07-01T14:57:15-04:00

I have not noticed any reduction in their thus far stellar performance. The Richmond VA facility is fantastic. How they pull it off without the support of Congress is beyond me.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2015 4:00 PM

2015-07-01T16:00:56-04:00

Same with the Coast Guard. I have my degrees...but as a reserve, I much prefer my role as senior enlisted. Even though we push Reserve Officer Training to our junior members, most prefer to pass on going to the "Dark Side" and build an enlisted career path.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2015 4:58 PM

2015-07-01T16:58:33-04:00

I am enlisted and I will stay enlisted for LIFE!

Response by LCDR William Breyfogle made Jul 1 at 2015 5:18 PM

2015-07-01T17:18:33-04:00

As a proud Mustang, I've experienced life in both worlds. Frankly, when I finally made CPO (PHC--Chief Photographer's Mate) I would have been quite content to stay at that level and explore "deckplate management." However, since it seemed to be taking forever to get promoted to Chief, I also had previously applied for LDO (Mustang Officer.) Got accepted, and made the transition next year. Biggest discovery (aside from the pay raise, which was nice) was that neither the Chief's Mess nor the Wardroom really knew what to do with me. Many chief's actually referred to Mustang offices as "quitters" and closed us out of the camaraderie of the Mess. At the same time, I was considerably older and more experienced than the other junior officers in the Wardroom and they -- naturally -- preferred to hang around with officers their own age (and hair color.) Once I put aside caring about that stuff, I came into my own and became (I think, at least) a fairly effective leader.

Response by CDR Matthew McLaughlin made Jul 1 at 2015 6:05 PM

2015-07-01T18:05:26-04:00

First, a little background. I'm a Navy Reserve Mustang (although not in the traditional LDO/CWO sense) with 36 years total service, and I've also worked for the Army as a civilian for the last 10 years. I did 6 years active in subs as a nuke MM, made MMC in the reserve and wore the anchors for 8 years before accepting a direct commission as an Engineering Duty Officer. I made the CDR list for FY16, and probably won't take off the uniform until the month before I get my first retirement check at age 60.
In my experience, the drive for a PARTICULAR senior enlisted paygrade is by far the greatest in the Navy; there's nothing like the CPO in the other services, although the USMC Gunny carries a certain mystique as well. It appears to me that in the Army, once you make Sergeant (E-5), the next MAJOR recognition doesn't come until SGM. There are those who target SGM, but it's a very narrow pyramid at that point. This also seems to represent how these enlisted are treated by the officer community; unless they've got the diamond of a First Sergeant, the Sergeants are largely lumped together. I know this is an over simplification, and that there are exceptions, but this is what I've seen relative to the Navy. Re: the Air Force, I honestly haven't a clue.
I also don't see the same attitude toward former enlisted officers in the Army as in the Navy. The Navy has a very strong tradition of Mustangs, and the presumption is that they're competent. I think this is partly based in the CWO/LDO model, where the enlisted member must be at least E-6 and eligible for promotion to E-7 to be selected for commission. Even with the Annapolis tradition, Mustangs hold their own. The Army seems different, although I've been told that's been changing some recently. Maverick Army officers are not generally seen in a default positive light like Mustang Navy officers are, and not a few senior Army officers seem dismissive of former enlisted in their ranks.

Response by 1SG Ronnie Miller made Jul 1 at 2015 6:30 PM

2015-07-01T18:30:32-04:00

I can relate to Enlisted personnel that wan't to remain that way. Especially if they are smart and hard working. I turned down the Officer ranks twice to be able to reach my goal of becoming a First Sergeant. I know I could have made more money as an Officer but sometimes living a Dream is more important. If I could do it all over I would still choose the Diamond.

Response by CPO Bernard Bellew made Nov 6 at 2017 6:02 AM

2017-11-06T06:02:41-05:00

At one sea command the C.O. was an academy graduate who despised ex-enlisted officers and enlisted personnel in general. At one shore command I saw many junior 7's make LDO. I personally believed they were nothing special outside of being political and well liked...I was not one. Most Navy ex-enlisted types seem to look down on enlisted personnel after they put on the bars.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2019 10:35 PM

2019-09-29T22:35:11-04:00

The drive does exist. I am an Army Medic, SSG, and see PA as my career goal. However, if someone came to me and said drop that nonsense, instead you’ve got a guaranteed chance to make 1SG and SGM, I think I would take it.

Officers plan and sit in meetings. They have authority, but it’s authority by committee. The power senior officers hold over their junior officers is unreal.

NCO make men. It feels to me like a more direct experience of leadership, barring officers’ command role.