How does one learn to enjoy being on staff?

2015-03-11T20:52:55-04:00

I am personally the type of person who does not enjoy spending endless hours editing PowerPoint slides/Word documents/Excel spreadsheets, sending/responding to emails, and generally running around making requisitions. I joined the Army to do cool "hooah" stuff, NOT to work in a cubicle. As a relatively new 2nd lieutenant (graduated my BOLC in December), I was diverted from my original orders and placed in an assistant S-3 position in a sustainment brigade (much to my deep and unending disappointment). I was tracking that "paperwork" was a large part of the job description for an officer, just not the WHOLE job description. Are there any real benefits to such a situation where my peers are getting their Key Leader Development time as PLs (and developing their branch/MOS competencies) while I am languishing in a cubicle? Or is my perspective distorted? My study of DA PAM 600-3 makes me very depressed regarding the trajectory of my Army career thus far (and it just started!). Any feedback? Thanks so much!

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Mar 11 at 2015 9:01 PM

2015-03-11T21:01:00-04:00

2LT Katherine Elifson, You don't! You embrace the 'suck' until an opportunity to move on/upwards/away suddenly presents.

Until then, you strive to see how component you can become in this position. There is much to learn and experience and everything builds on something else. You are in a great position, when you have become so valued that they hate to see you move on, YOU WILL BE A SUCCESS!

In proper attire, about 0600-0630, you should have no difficulty finding a PT formation you could ask to join. PT formations sometimes have a lot of Hoorah, besides that it will make you smell like a soldier for the rest of the day!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 9:09 PM

2015-03-11T21:09:59-04:00

You may never come to enjoy it, but you should look at this a the opportunity to learn your "hooah" job from 30,000 feet. Knowing the big picture and where all the moving pieces are cannot help but make you better at the details at such time as you get back to them.

You also have the opportunity, while participating in the process, to help ensure that your fellow staff types don't forget the real world, worm's eye view when making plans.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Mar 11 at 2015 9:17 PM

2015-03-11T21:17:27-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member there are two ways to look at this coin; the down part is right now you are stuck doing your staff time while your peers are developing in their CMF and PL time. However, they will get stuck on a staff and you can then lean forward in the foxhole and shine. Grab yourself a mentor and learn as much as you can and later down the road of life you will get you time to do Hooah cool stuff. Keep head up and keep putting one foot in front of the other.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Mar 11 at 2015 9:17 PM

2015-03-11T21:17:54-04:00

I would recommend taking on tasks that are particularly challenging and beyond your scope of duties. Push yourself...it will help pass the staff time anyway!

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 12 at 2015 12:04 AM

2015-03-12T00:04:21-04:00

You focus on doing the best in every job you are given. All jobs matter, and as officers we spend more time of staff than we do in command. We are all leaders, so approach it as a leader.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 1:17 AM

2015-03-12T01:17:06-04:00

It's a good thing that you want to be out with the troops. Every Officer, in my opinion, should aspire to do so. I've admittedly never been on staff. My career thus far has been Platoon Leader, Detachment Commander/XO, Company Command. At some point I will have to transition to staff as well, which is something I'm not looking forward to either. Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and drive on. Whether it's as a staff weenie or a commander the Soldiers under you deserve your best effort.

I do think you have some opportunities to grow professionally where you are, especially being a loggy. Planning is where you make your money as an Officer, whether it's a Company level attack or sustainment operations. I would use this time to sharpen your operations order and briefing skills. I would also link up with your S4 and try and learn that side as much as possible. I would argue many of the same tasks you would do as a PL are being done at the Battalion level as well, they're just on a larger scale. Judging from your profile you don't have any prior service. This will also be more time for you to mature and develop before taking your first Platoon, which should also set you up for success.

I wouldn't worry too much about your career just yet. As one of my instructors told me at MCCC, an ACOM OER is an ACOM OER regardless of what duty position you're in. If you excel on staff you will be noticed and good things will happen for you. Your Platoon Leader time will come and be over before you realize it.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Mar 12 at 2015 1:27 AM

2015-03-12T01:27:26-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member PT - I went and did PT every day during lunch time. I was on a very cool, laid back staff. Most of us came back to the office, hung out in our sweaties, had lunch and cooled off, went to the showers, came back. We worked while cooling off, so our Capt (Navy O6) was fine with it...

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 3:48 AM

2015-03-12T03:48:39-04:00

Ma'am - I feel sorry for you because being on staff absolutely drives me crazy! With that being said there are some great advantages. Before I talk about advantages you need to have a talk with your S-3 about his/her plans for your future. I wouldn't bug him/her on a daily basis but if I were you I would state my case that it is imperative for you to get your KD time and, when does the 3 think that move is going to happen?

Staff gives you the opportunity to work with the "big dogs", commanders and S-3s/XOs find a soft spot in their hearts for Soldiers that worked on their staff because they know them much better than a LT that went straight to a platoon. It can work to your advantage when you do finally get your platoon and when you become a company XO.

It gives you an opportunity to really understand mission command and the orders process. You should be participating in working groups and developing COAs, interacting with higher staff, interacting with the company commanders, putting up with the CSM/SGM foul mouthed coffee breath. Gives you a great opportunity to network and get some "face time".

It is a damn important job! Although technically you work for the commander you truly work for the companies. You should be creating time and space to allow the company commanders to train their companies. You are managing resources and time so they can concentrate on training. Try not to forget that, it will become clear when you switch places and take a platoon.

Just like anything else in the Army, be the best damn staff officer you can (even if it sucks). Someone is watching you and appreciates the hard work you are doing, somewhere down the line it will pay off. Definitely have that talk with the 3 about when you can expect to take a platoon, getting forgot about and not getting your KD time when you are supposed to is a bad thing...the 3 knows that, or should.

Hang in there!

Response by SSG Eddye Royal made Mar 12 at 2015 5:09 AM

2015-03-12T05:09:58-04:00

I am only downgrading Sir, here to give you a second chance to re-think that statement. I got LTCs, CSM, and BG on both my RallyPOINT and my LinkedIn Connection at the highest level of govt. That comes with the job, I left after the 1st GULFWAR, no way to go OCS cut backs, but they MILITARY, plus OBM sent me to a job that paid for education to almost finish a MS IN Infotechology, now I have a chave chance to get MS in CYMBER crime technology, with a PHD. SICK IT UP, soldier or a RIF is in your FUTURE. This forum in NOT as free as (SPEECH) or 1st Amendment Right as you think. You are in the military and a leader. I worked with all leaders doing the Gulf War.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 5:57 AM

2015-03-12T05:57:33-04:00

Staff work isn't terrible. I deployed as a staff officer. However, it seems nearly pointless for a 2LT. You've just begun to scratch the surface of your trade at the most tactical level, and now you are the staff of a brigade? Wait it out; I'm sure they are just waiting for a PL spot to open up for you.

FWIW, though, if you wanted to only do "hooah" stuff for a career, then you should have enlisted. They are far more hands on, and many don't sniff staff until they are a SSG or even a SFC. As an officer, you will spend 12-24 months as a PL, 24 months in company command (with a possible second command in there, too), and...well...if you're one of the lucky elite chosen by the CSL to lead a battalion, then 24 months there. However, that's rare. So, most officers can hope of seeing, at most, 72 months of their career in command. That's 6 years. What do most who stay for a career do for the other 14? Staff and school.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 6:17 AM

2015-03-12T06:17:58-04:00

Ma'am,

Who's the guy in the picture, though? =)

Response by MAJ Chris Ballard made Mar 12 at 2015 7:54 AM

2015-03-12T07:54:05-04:00

There's no way to soften the blow: being on staff sucks. No one really enjoys it. However, there are some very real benefits to it, and I believe it truly will make you a better leader. The first is seeing the orders process from the head shed down.

As a PL you should have an understanding of the mission two levels up, but from my experience that didn't mean much to me until I was nugging out an order with the S-3 and XO in the TOC in JRTC at 0200. It served me well when it came time to take company command.

Others have mentioned the face time with the battalion leadership. I didn't see the value of that as a 1LT S-1, but I learned it very well as my career progressed. I was always a 'keep your head down and do your job' kinda guy. That ended up costing me when I was coming out of command and needing a letter of recommendation for the next job and I didn't have anyone I felt comfortable reaching out to!

Bottom line at the bottom: you'll never "enjoy" staff work, but it can be a great learning experience and you can and will grow as a leader from having done it.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 12 at 2015 8:08 AM

2015-03-12T08:08:34-04:00

Being a "staff" guy from "birth to grave" so to speak, there are some huge advantages to it.

First off, the mentorship opportunities are huge. You'll be surrounded by not only more senior officers, but lots off NCOs in specialized positions to learn from. One of the biggest take-aways is a hands on appreciation of how the processes actually work, not just theoretically work.

Doing things from the field, it's hard to understand why things take the amount of time & effort they do. Being in the office, you learn what hoops they have to go through, and more importantly why they have to go through them. And it's far easier to learn these when you're a "younger" officer than after you've picked up a few ranks.

I know there is a feeling of "I didn't sign up for this" but getting this position early is actually hugely beneficial in the long run. Even if you only do it for 6 months, and then go to a platoon, you'll know everyone on staff, and those people will be more inclined to help you than random PL who comes into the building only as needed.

As for career trajectory. Successful completion of a staff billet can only help you.

Response by SSG Rob Cline made Mar 12 at 2015 8:09 AM

2015-03-12T08:09:34-04:00

I worked as an S2 NCOIC for the 17th CSSB in Alaska and I will chime in with this:
I had been tactical my entire career and it was actually kind of cool seeing how the -3 shop worked in day-to-day operations when not deployed or in the field. I would say take this opportunity to learn how, and more importantly what is needed, when submitting requests for training/ taskers. Once you get to the line, you can be instrumental in ensuring that your company/ platoon has their ducks in a row when requesting say, a range.
Good luck!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 8:16 AM

2015-03-12T08:16:49-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member As many others have said, embrace it. If you choose to stay in, you'll spend more time on staff even IF you are fortunate enough to command anything past a company command. Also, in the civilian world, there isn't the same type of subordinate commands for the most part -- there is a CEO, a CFO, a COO and then the rest. We'll all be the rest most of our lives. But that's not all bad.

My thought on staff positions is embrace the challenge. I was asked to think more on staff. I wanted to be involved so I was able to analyze and solve problems -- a useful tool in any walk of life. I was able to spend time looking ahead -- as a PL, you have access to whatever commander you have to work for; as a staff officer, you can (especially if your S3 is forward thinking) observe and interact with all commanders, and all PLs across your battalion or brigade.

Lastly for now, remember that being an officer on the staff (or a senior NCO), you will lead and because of the nature of the work you'll learn that it's really all about the people. It is where enlisted, NCOs and officers chat in the morning about the weekend, lament about this and that and then when the work flow starts is all business. While you often interact with less in your specific shop, you will probably interact more often with the shop soldiers and others than you could in a platoon.

I also encourage you to take the time to make yourself better. The implication is always that the staff officer would do anything to be leading again, or be an XO or anything else. So if you are sincere about that, then do your homework and prep work for whatever you think your next job will be (ask about it in your next counseling).

Just be a good soldier and a good officer and it'll be just fine. I wish you the best of luck.

Response by MAJ Christopher Daily made Mar 12 at 2015 8:31 AM

2015-03-12T08:31:57-04:00

I have done a lot of staff time, Assistant S-3, S-3, Assistant G-4, LARO. I can not tell you how much it has helped me at the company level. Everything you learn there will make you so much more prepared for company level ops. The best way to enjoy your time is to understand how your decisions are affecting each and every Soldier in your BDE. When you are pounding out an OPORD for some upcoming training remember to think about how your decisions are going to translate to real life actions. Before you know it you will be on the other end screaming about a Friday 1600 FRAGO. Also take time to absorb as much knowledge as you can from your OPS O and other staff Officers/NCOs. Finally, enjoy the predictable nature of your job while it lasts!

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 8:40 AM

2015-03-12T08:40:45-04:00

The responses all tend towards one thing... staff is a great developmental experience. I had two staff jobs before I ever got to my platoon. While I haven't loved all of my staff jobs, each has given me insight that I never would have gotten in the woods. Sure, you do need to learn your "Job", as in whatever KD jobs your branch has. However, if you do a career in the Army, most of your career will be spent on staff with progressive levels of responsibility. A great staff is very important and helps (or hinders if not great) the troops on the ground in a way that most troops will never fully be cognizant of. Look at this as an opportunity to get ahead of your peers on what most of them will actually be doing for the bulk of their career.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 9:08 AM

2015-03-12T09:08:50-04:00

How do you learn to enjoy being on staff? In short, embrace the suck.

1. Staff work is full of detail-oriented, wonky stuff. You will write annexes that few will read, yet all will be affected by. Master your craft. Read up and become an expert on your subject matter. Take leassons learned by trial and error as opportunities to improve and polish your outputs that much more. Your XO and commander will come to rely on you, and that benefits your career in myriad ways.
2. No matter how rough your days and nights look, someone else on the staff has it worse. Reach out and be collegial with your fellow staff officers and NCOs. The support network you foster will serve you well when the going gets tough, and helping your comrades fosters teamwork that can only build your unit's capabilities. Even a kind word will be long-remembered. Write that one down for when you are in command someday.
3. Be open to feedback, especially from the commander and XO. It will feel like they are tearing up your baby, but what they are really doing (most of the time) is getting you on track with the commander's priorities for resourcing and support to the mission. Buck this feedback at your peril; embrace it and you will be seen as a core member of the staff whose counsel should be taken seriiously.

Staff work can be a tedious and thankless task. But it is important. You are enabling the mission to happen, and giving the commander the information he needs to make decisions. There is power in knowing your work makes a difference.
Good luck, ma'am. You will get your platoon soon enough. Command has it's own challenges. Be ready when the time comes.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 11:00 AM

2015-03-12T11:00:17-04:00

This situation is what quarterly counsellings was made for. I would urge you to seek cousellings with your rater and talk about your performance. Ask what are the rater and the senior rater's expectations of you. What is the end goal of you being the S3's assistant? See what additional duties you can take on. If you suffer in silence, you only hurt yourself. I. Always did what I was told and embraced the suck. Never complained and I was too shy to let them know what I wanted or how I could be useful to the organization. Don't be that shy 2LT. Be tactful and respectful about everything you do. But demand those quarterlies.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Mar 12 at 2015 1:12 PM

2015-03-12T13:12:58-04:00

I've been on Staff for seven years, I'll report back when I know.

Kidding. Staff is what you make of it, you can learn from senior leaders directly for your specialty and as a Logistician you are more likely to be on staff than in a command role. Learn to approach problems in advance of them happening and anticipate issues, make it like a challenge or a game. Enjoy the company of those around you and learn about them, their strengths, what they bring to the table.

Staff is a great place to learn the big picture so that when you land in a command role, likely at company level as a CPT, you have a strong understanding of what the BN is trying to accomplish and how you fit into the plan.

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Mar 12 at 2015 1:13 PM

2015-03-12T13:13:03-04:00

Well, you DO learn how things work behind the scenes at the higher echelons. I never served on a BN Staff, but I was an HHC XO for a while, and it indeed added to my understanding of how things worked beyond the troop, squad, and Platoon level.

Learn what you can, and take what you learn and apply it when you are assigned as a PL and (eventually) a Company Commander.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 1:25 PM

2015-03-12T13:25:43-04:00

You can learn a TON while on staff...at any point in your career. You can also knock out some of your PME by correspondance. Further....take advantage of this opportunity to build your network. And wow---you'll get to personally watch and learn from some really talented senior folks. Soak it all up! Prove you're a competent, quick study and you won't get treated like "just another knucklehead 2 Lt." You'll also get to watch see first hand how a senior staff officer can chew up and spit out officers (at all grades) who don't measure up. This is a fantastic opportunity to get the birds eye view of the corn field. Should you be getting the worm's view first? Probably. But if you're smart, you'll learn, learn, learn and use the lessons to help you when you are the worm. I did several tours on various staffs. Not my favorite place to work but I sure as heck did learn a lot. Not the most fun place to work either, but again, I sure did learn a lot.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Mar 13 at 2015 2:32 PM

2015-03-13T14:32:17-04:00

Does one ever really enjoy being on staff? I say yes, but those usually are not the dirty boot leaders who do enjoy it. Staff or TDA units often put out the fire that one carries into the job and position, but one has to find a way to get out of it often and develop relationships with those they support by being on the staff. I chose an office without a window and coffee pot so I have to leave it to see other folks. The battlefield circulation or terrain walks I take are to smile, great and get to those whom I support as a staff officer. The coffee pot in the chaplains "first cup" is much better than the water fountain and a further walk.

Try not to lose your motivation in staff, but develop ways to make it desirable for those who follow you and to support those that you position requires, at the end of the day, taking care of those who may not know you even exists is where it counts.

Response by SSG Christopher Parrish made Mar 13 at 2015 2:40 PM

2015-03-13T14:40:07-04:00

I am TDY to our RGT S-6 shop and hated it at first, when we drill I want to be out in it with my Co. but I have grown to appreciate the time I have there. I have gotten to know our top leaders, and them to know me. I have been able to learn more that I can then take back to my Co. in 6 more months (happy me) and hopefully be able to foster better lines of communications between the BN and the RGT level.

As others have said, do the job you are needed for and do it to the best of your ability. It will pay off in the end in the support chain you are building as well as now you will have a better understanding of the piece of the mission you are assigned in the future.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Mar 13 at 2015 3:31 PM

2015-03-13T15:31:51-04:00

Someday, some where you will be glad you learned that stuff. I was a 11B/12B who loved to sleep on the ground, smell the sweet smell of explosives, being in the field. Then I got my war and I was in a HQ doing that staff work. Yea, it sucks, but it has to be done. Stop thinking about what you're missing and start looking at what you're learning. You're cup is half full not half empty. There is so much to learn if you open your eyes and learn it. It may not seem like it now, but some day you'll be glad you know what you're learning now.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 3:32 PM

2015-03-13T15:32:58-04:00

Many individuals have said very wise and supportive comments in this thread. Since I'm naturally pessimistic and I hate the world I'll try a somewhat different approach.

1. Based on your initial question - Yes, there is a benefit. You will actually see how things work at a higher level which will make more sense to you when you make it down to the line units on why "XYZ" occurs the way it does. Further, if you're in an FSC later you'll be able to explain to your maneuver brethren why the support they are requesting is dumb (respectfully), or why they can't have 800k rounds of 155mm flown in by helicopter. It will refine your attention to detail and will get you face time with higher ups in the unit. It's never to early to start being recognizable as long as it's in a positive manner.

2. You are the master of your own career. As long as you have your DA photo, your ORB is up to date and accurate, your evals are done and you have everything IPerm'd....an officer can sit around and just let the big army determine your life. However.....if you choose your path and work for it, you can make your own career (or at least influence it).....people who are military liaisons didn't get that job by just waiting for it to come to them, they chased it. Don't let a DA PAM get you down...the great thing about our manuals and doctrine (as the Russians complained about us) is we usually see it as a suggestion, not a rule.

3. Being placed on staff can often be a significant emotional event....it can be high paced, it can be slow, your superiors can be bat sh** crazy and act like a rabid badger hopped up on caffeine that's on fire, or you may never see your superiors. All the a** bleeding detail you're having to go through with PPT, Word, Excel, etc, will help down the line....brownie points for helping others that aren't efficient with it, getting products pumped out quickly on short deadlines, skills you need to have in the civilian work place....here's the big one......got it, you're a 2LT now.....when you go to CLC3....the entire curriculum is basically centered on a SUSBDE. If you learn this now...you'll be a planner GOD when you get to CLC3.

4. Advantage - You're not being thrown into the fire straight out of BOLC and put in front of troops...less opportunity to make "2LT" mistakes in front of your troops. Listen and learn. Listen to the what your bosses like, dislike, what gets on their pet peeves, why they get pissed at commanders, why they praise commanders, they'll joke behind closed doors on silly or stupid mistakes, take something away form that bantering other than just having a good laugh....see what your fellow LTs do wrong and right....have them make your mistakes for you in essence before you're in their shoes, and just don't repeat what they do wrong, emulate what they do right.

5. Last one, promise. Kind of going off my 4th point, you're surrounded by senior NCOs, warrants, and officers. Learn from them all.....some of those senior NCOs may be pushed down to the line units later...for instance the S3 NCO for my BN when I was a PL, ended up being my 1SG...he and I had built a relationship prior to that and made things much easier for both of us when he came down to my unit. Want to get things done when you're in a line unit, get to know the PBO, 4 shop, 1 shop now....it will pay dividends later. You'll never be in the Warrant mafia, but you can be a familiar...which is the next best thing.

I'll shush now....many apologies for ranting.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 6:08 PM

2015-03-13T18:08:35-04:00

Now, this is assuming that the MOS on your profile is correct. You shouldn't have expected to do any real high speed stuff being a quartermaster officer. Office work is what they do. You're just going to have to embrace it.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 9:39 PM

2015-03-13T21:39:18-04:00

This may induce some groans from some, but use your MRT and hunt that good stuff!

You can learn a lot on staff and you are still around Soldiers and impacting their lives. Own your perspective and attitude, only you can make yourself happy and enjoy an assignment. (I of course say this with the benefit of hindsight, I know a little about getting the job as a new LT that wasn't quite what I expected ;) ).

Response by LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® made Mar 13 at 2015 9:43 PM

2015-03-13T21:43:47-04:00

When you become a commander, you will realize how important a staff officer is. You can't do much if you don't have a competent staff. Also be getting to know the staff position well, you end up becoming a better commander in my opinion.

When I became a commander I didn't have as much experience in the 1 and 4 lane, so I was at a disadvantage there, since I didn't necessarily know what to look for, ask for, or see if things were going the right way.

Look at your staff position as a stepping stone. The more you learn, the easier it is when you rise up through the ranks!

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 10:37 PM

2015-03-13T22:37:43-04:00

You are going to be a better platoon leader due to your time on staff. I know it's hard to see now, but trust me. I started as an Armor Platoon leader and was there for about 1 month. Then, the BN got orders to go to Bosnia, but the Company I was in wasn't going to go. I was moved to be one of 3 assistant S3's. I labored away filling out reports on a DOS based machine in the days before the tactical internet. It was awesome. I hated my life. Then when I got down to a platoon, I was amazed at what the other line platoon leaders didn't know. The things they did had absolutely no connection to what the BN was doing, only because they didn't see any of the big picture. Their lives were the culmination of four vehicles and 20 personnel...and that was it. They had no idea the role they were playing or why their piece of the pie was important. That staff time was formative and made me a much better platoon leader than my peers. When I was a captain, I was sure I would go straight to command. I didn't. I spent 1.5 years on the I Corps G1 staff doing plans and operations. Then I went to a battalion...where I served as the S4 for 8 months before taking command. Once again, I was befuddled and angry about my staff time. When I got to the company/troop, I saw that again...I was better for having served on staff. It gave me time to grow into being a captain, versus just being fresh out of school and thinking that was enough. Some of the worst officers I have seen are thrust right into leadership roles out of the school house and have had no time to adjust to the local environment and get to know their battalion. They flail around thinking that what they were taught is what to do and fail miserably. Meanwhile, someone on staff gets to know the CSM, the S3, the XO, in your case, the SPO. All these people are highly influential and if you do a damn fine job on the staff, they will make sure that you and your platoon are taken care of when your time comes. Staff is what we do between command. I have been in a "leadership position," 6 years out of the 20 years I have been in the Army. Do the math.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 10:48 PM

2015-03-13T22:48:43-04:00

Start a fitness challenge, CPT Private RallyPoint Member. No one is going to object that; some may grumble quitely but I guarantee no one is going to stop a fitness challenge in a staff environment. I mean work is work no matter where you find yourself "managing" things or "leading" people. Show them the latter, ma'am.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 11:52 PM

2015-03-13T23:52:36-04:00

Ma'am, from the enlisted perspective, staff was a painful exercise to work into in the beginning, but once the processes were learned, the interaction and knowledge gained through interacting with the BN/BDE S3 and G3 staffs provided a perspective that was impossible to gain while in a squad leader position. When you return to a line unit as a PL or XO, you will have a perspective that your Commander will be glad that you have and you will have a better grasp on why things are happening than your counterparts. Hang in there and good luck Ma'am.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2015 2:25 AM

2015-03-14T02:25:37-04:00

Some people are just not the behind the desk type, but it doesn't get any better with rank or position. There will always be spreadsheets, power points, or memos needing to be done. What you learn in S3 can help you understand the requirements of command. You can gain a different perspective of the military and big picture concepts from S3 operations. Embrace the opportunity and understand how office you work in functions and why. You may be the one in charge of a similar office down the line. Take every learning opportunity to add to your portfolio/work history.

Response by PO1 John Meyer, CPC made Mar 14 at 2015 11:20 AM

2015-03-14T11:20:01-04:00

Having spent 3 years on staff, I could tell you all sorts of negative things about it with the paperwork and the death by PowerPoint Presentations, but there are so many positives to take from staff when talking about making the military a career; enlisted or officer.

Now, I know I'm Navy and you're Army, but staff is staff regardless of branch of service.

You're working with so many senior officers/enlisted with tons of Army "real world" experiences. Drain their brains! Learn as much as you can from them about how the Army really works.

Work hard, produce accurate and timely reports, and your seniors will take note. This can go a very long way when it comes time for promotion.

I wish all the best for you because I've been there and done that and had the same feelings about it as you are having now.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Mar 14 at 2015 12:12 PM

2015-03-14T12:12:48-04:00

One benefit of being on staff is that it will really help you appreciate that staff when you are no longer on it -- and how it works. When I was in a line unit, I was often thinking "Why isn't the staff doing this or that more effectively?" Well, truth is that just like staff doesn't fully understand the line units' day to day challenges, the line units also DO NOT fully understand the true depth and breadth of the staff's challenges. I know that's not a popular opinion to have, necessarily -- but being on staff will help you appreciate and understand (and work with!) the staff when you are down on the line.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2015 1:00 PM

2015-03-14T13:00:16-04:00

1-You're in 15SB, a great historic unit, and a great S3.
2-You have the opportunity to be exposed to the organizational dynamics that drive EAB sustainment, the operations process, and mission command. Gaining a vocabulary in each of the three is absolutely priceless.
3-The exposure to pre- and post-command LG CPTs, LG MAJs, and access to the BDE CSM and CDR offer a chance get comfortable with engaging senior leaders in discourse.
4-Continue to leverage every opportunity to perform as a way to influence your rater and senior rater to get you down to one of the companies--any company.

Response by MAJ Emma Toops made Mar 14 at 2015 7:07 PM

2015-03-14T19:07:47-04:00

Katherine,
Look at your time on staff ALWAYS as a learning and networking/mentorship opportunity - as a young officer, you have face time and are working with the folks in the BN who are coordinating resources and making the decisions for what the rest of the unit does in missions. ALWAYS have a positive attitude and work hard. You will learn about cross-functional areas and coordination and how to effectively communicate in various forms (email, written, verbal). By the time the next slating or OML comes up for a leadership position, the decision-makers know who you are and have proof of your performance.

As a Chemical Officer, it was expected that I would be at a Battalion Staff right out of OBC as it how our branch is set-up and we were told that we'd be lucky if we had the opportunity to be a Platoon Leader or Company XO. Opportunity was based on timing and availability for order-of-merit lists (OML) and/or slating for leadership positions, and sometimes on who you knew.

I was seriously the only 2LT in my battalion in my first assignment (it was an aviation unit) and I had the "undesirable" duties of BN Readiness Officer and BN Training Officer; however, these duties taught me everything about the unit's readiness and training, got me in front of the S3, XO, and/or BN CDR weekly and/or monthly, and when the leadership positions at the Division Chemical Company were not aligning with my need for a KD position, I was given a KD opportunity within the battalion and also allowed to go on an NTC Rotation as part of one of the subordinate companies Ops section, both outside of my authorized MTOE position.

If you make a career of the Army, you will spent a lot of your career on Staff. Get good at it, learn at every opportunity, and create a network - it will make you a better Company Commander and make it easier to be on Staff at larger organizations.

It's what you make of it. Make it positive! :-)

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Mar 14 at 2015 8:19 PM

2015-03-14T20:19:03-04:00

First, I will say that there in nothing wrong with staff work. It may not be as fun or hooah as a lot of other things in the Army, but it is work that NEEDS to be done. Channeling Mike Rowe for a minute, Any work that needs to be done should be done well, and you should take pride in doing it. (Of course, nothing wrong with trying to get the work you WANT, see below.) Any job done well is something to feel good about.

One of my college philosophy classes way back during the cold war (I’m old…) talked about the “Purpose of the Work” vs. the “Purpose of the Worker”. I the basic idea was that when the two were in alignment, being ethical as well as happy naturally followed. In this case, the “Purpose of the Work” is to do everything necessary so that the Army can accomplish its missions. More specifically, it is all the unglamorous process stuff that is 100% vital to the Army and its units being able to function at all. What is open to discussion is what is the “Purpose of the Worker”? There are lots of good answers to that question, including “having fun”, “developing a career”, “killing commies”, etc. If they align 100% great, if they at lest don’t conflict, you’re good to go.

The most important thing you will learn on staff, at each level, is systems thinking. I’ve honestly been away from the schoolhouse just long enough that I don’t know if the Army is using that term, but that is what it is. The Army is a system that is made up of systems that are made up of systems and so on. Each of these systems has multiple feedback loops with each of these. Nobody can really TRACK all of this, but you can get a strong sense of how everything fits together.

As others have said, this will be invaluable to your career as you progress. You will see your peers do things that make NO SENSE or are counterproductive in the big picture, due to lack of comprehension. (Hopefully you’ll try to steer them right…) As will the simple knowledge of what things senior leaders ACTUALLY focus on. Which is invariably not what people 1 or 2 levels below EXPECT it to be. You will find that your peers will spend hours or weeks on things that the boss simply doesn’t care about, but neglect their hot button issues.

Next is the old adage that you need to “Do what you can, from where you are, with what you have.” Leaders are defined by leading, not by job title. You will find that, if you try, you can lead and mold the future of the Army (to a greater or lesser extent) from ANY slot you hold, whatsoever. The Assistant S3 who double-checks the ammo requests against the course of fire and the projected number of firers and makes sure that a conflict is resolved is doing important work – that the unit could fail if not done. This is every bit as important as leading a platoon.

Platoon time is FUN and great ground-level training. However, it is not going to make or break your career. Unless you do something AMAZINGLY stupid, you should be able to get as far as MAJ on simply showing up and doing your job(s) well. By that time you will have an abundance of evaluations and YEARS of time since you would have been a PL. You will have a track record that you will be judged on rather than any one experience.

So, next cliché: You are your own best career manager. As others have already mentioned, talk to your rater about where you want to go next and what your long term goals are. I’m going to go a little further and tell you to create your own individual development plan(s) (IDPs). At least 2 – One military and one personal. The military one should be based on a combination of your branch’s progression chart (can’t remember the name – the one that says 7 YOS, typical jobs, typical mil ed…) and YOUR DESIRES. Have goals that are <2 years, 2-5 years, and 5 years out. When I was a BN CDR, I made the military one an OPD requirement for my officers, and strongly recommended the second (as well as a third for civilian career).

Addressing the typical objection, yes it will be WRONG and it WILL NOT happen that way. But you will be surprised at how much closer you will be to the target just by identifying the target and sharing that info judiciously. There is nothing wrong with (and everything right with!) having branches and sequels to your goals. Plan A fails, you still have 25 more letters. And those won’t work as planned either. ;-)

In my case, I re-did all three of mine as I got ready to go out of command. And made good progress on short term goals on all three. Then I got a bolt out of the blue opportunity that totally derailed ALL THREE in one fell swoop. However, because I’d thought it out in advance. I was able to adapt and believe I’m still making forward progress. The value comes from the effort of the planning. As someone once said, “Plans are useless, but planning is everything.”

I use the IDP that was used when I taught ILE (and can share, if you want a copy, once I make sure the template doesn’t have anything limited release on it). But it doesn’t matter WHAT format you use, as long as you do the thinking and planning that goes into it.

Consider the source, for what it’s worth “traditional” guard/reserve guy – PL, XO, Company Command, Bn S3 & XO, Bn command time (selected for a 2nd, declined – yes, your read that right), LOTS of staff and schoolhouse time, Current AWC-DEP student.

Besides, if it doesn’t have M1 Abrams’, why would you want a platoon?..... ☺

Response by SFC Walter Mack made Mar 14 at 2015 8:39 PM

2015-03-14T20:39:48-04:00

Ma'am, you have to understand the opportunity that you have been handed, especially when your LT OERs will now be fair play for promotion. An OPS position is not the most fun opportunity, but from an enlisted perspective, it's a career opportunity that has the potential to bring greatness in your future. Working with officers during my time in OPS also leads me to believe that it's not much different for you either. You should make every effort to absorb information available during your time in the 3 shop, because it will eliminate a lot of questions that would have plagued your career later on. The hooah will come with time, but operations will never go away. To be honest, you should consider yourself lucky..., later..., when you're not in OPS anymore.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 16 at 2015 1:07 PM

2015-04-16T13:07:11-04:00

It depends on what size of an organization you work for and your staff position. I worked in staff at a large TSC running their budget and implementing Defense Travel Systems, of which there is a DTS Smart book if you Google it. I started it and someone added to it to include his name.

As a Corps budget officer, I attended many meetings with COLs and Generals. Some of these turned into pissing contests where the CoS or the Corps CO made the final decision. I felt sorry for all the MAJs and LTCs who worked on the operations side of the Corps staff. They had to look at Future Ops and brief their plans and OPORD. I can tell you their were hundreds of weary officers who worked out of the Corps HQ.