How far is too far for "relationships" for officers and enlisted?

2016-01-26T23:19:59-05:00

I am a personal trainer and one of my clients is a Major. I am already uncomfortable with this because the only type of officer I, as a chaplain assistant, have this much contact with is an actual chaplain but even in this situation we maintain professionalism. She has been my client for almost 3 years now. She has offered me advice and have tried to guide me in many different directions as a soldier, so she is a great officer. Hands down one of the Army's finest srationed at the the Pentagon.

She has a 5 year old, as well as I, and asked if my son could come over and play with her son. I was hesitant but I allowed him. Is this too close of a relationship and or too close to a friendship for an officer and enlisted personnel to have? I want to remain professional on all levels at all times and make sure that I am not overstepping any boundaries. I don't fall under her command at all either.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Jan 26 at 2016 11:29 PM

2016-01-26T23:29:33-05:00

Impressive post. You are doing well, as long as there is no professional contact or decisions affected - I would say you are good to go.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2016 11:36 PM

2016-01-26T23:36:40-05:00

You are both women and are friends in different units. What you are doing is not crossing the line, as far as I am concerned

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Jan 27 at 2016 3:52 AM

2016-01-27T03:52:42-05:00

Just from what I have read there is nothing unprofessional about what's going on. In fact, to me it seems more like outstanding leadership on her part and great service camaraderie. I would say it isn't much different than running into an officer from your chain in Church or at the gym and working out together or something. Just keep things the way they are and you should be fine.

Also, and no offense to any officers but given the fact that you say she works at the Pentagon, just from what I gather of what ranks mean at the Pentagon she is pretty much at your level anyway. I could be wrong but I have heard stories of people up to even O6 being basically the coffee-getters there.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2016 7:06 AM

2016-01-27T07:06:43-05:00

You are starting to mix your professional work with your personal life. Are you asking this because you realize there is a problem or because you want to see how far you can go without getting in trouble? If you think it is wrong and you don't want to mix the two worlds just cut the cord and say no to hanging out socially. You should tactfully stop discussing your personal life with patients anyways. If you don't see anything wrong with officers and enlisted hanging out on a personal basis and it is not going to affect your work, keep doing it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2016 7:59 AM

2016-01-27T07:59:41-05:00

Being in the Reserve and Guard blur the lines of fraternization. It is possible for an E4 to be a supervisor over an officer or NCO in their civilian employment.
From your situation as described I do not see overstepping.

Response by SCPO Joshua I made Jan 27 at 2016 8:29 AM

2016-01-27T08:29:50-05:00

Interesting reading all the Army guys saying it's fine, the Gunny saying it's wrong... I'm with the Gunny GySgt Private RallyPoint Member here, and maybe we do things differently in our services.

I'm presuming this is a off-duty business as a personal trainer, not some military sanctioned medical thing as part of your duties because of your MOS as a Chaplain's assistant, if I'm wrong perhaps there's another interpretation.

Given that, per our (SECNAV) instruction, you could not do what you are doing. You can't have that person as a client, because you're not to have financial dealings with officers. That's independent of chain of command, unit assignment, etc. There are some caveats to that, but in general what you've done is formed a personal relationship that does not respect rank or grade, and as such it is contrary to good order and discipline. Period. Again -- Navy perspective, but you know deep down that it's problematic and that's why you're asking the question.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2016 9:51 AM

2016-01-27T09:51:00-05:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member When in question about Army policy go to the manuals.
This is addressed under FM 7:21:13. 3-160 Relationships between soldiers of a different rank. There is more than what I'm posting here if you need it.

3-161. Certain types of personal relationships between officers and enlisted soldiers are prohibited. Prohibited relationships include on-going business relationships between officers and enlisted soldiers. This prohibition does not apply to landlord/tenant relationships or to one-time transactions such as the sale of an automobile or house but does apply to borrowing or lending money, commercial solicitation, and any other type of on-going financial or business relationship. In case of Army National Guard (ARNG) or United States Army Reserve (USAR) personnel, this prohibition does not apply to relationships that exist due to their civilian occupation or employment.

3-162. Other prohibited relationships are dating, shared living accommodations other than those directed by operational requirements, and intimate or sexual relationships between officers and enlisted soldiers. This prohibition does not apply to marriages prior to 1 March 2000. Other exceptions are the following:

Relationships that comply with this policy but then become non-compliant due to a change in status of one of the members (for example, two enlisted members are married and one is subsequently selected as a warrant officer).
Personal relationships outside of marriage between members of the ARNG or USAR, when the relationship primarily exists due to civilian acquaintances.
Personal relationships outside of marriage between members of the regular Army and members of the ARNG or USAR when the relationships primarily exist due to civilian association.
3-163. All soldiers must ensure that these relationships do not interfere with good order and discipline. Commanders will ensure that personal relationships, which exist between soldiers of different ranks emanating from their civilian careers, will not influence training.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2016 10:06 AM

2016-01-27T10:06:33-05:00

SGT Lewis, I see you are Army Reserve. This personal trainer business, is this your primary job?? Is this Major active duty? How did you come to have her as a client, and how did you find out she's a Major?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2016 12:43 PM

2016-01-27T12:43:47-05:00

Here's the deal.
As a Reserve Soldier, you are going to have a job (hopefully), and that might cause you to have contact with officers. This is not a violation of the Army Fraternization Policy, so long as it is not a business partnership or an "ongoing business relationship" such as them loaning you money. So far, you are fine.
Your children are kids. Kids play together, and have play dates. I am not sure how you conduct your business, but if it out of your home, I would be uncomfortable having her child there while you do a training session. You incur liability and it gets shadier how close this relationship is getting.
I would suggest a public site for the kids to play together in, like a park or a community pool as opposed to at a home.
Since you are not in each other's Chain-of-Command, you will not likely go wrong here, but it is right to keep some professional distance.
Great question, SFC Private RallyPoint Member.

Response by Maj John Bell made Jan 28 at 2016 1:36 PM

2016-01-28T13:36:13-05:00

In leadership situations; Perception is reality. Just because the situation now presents no problems does not guarantee that will always be true. If you don't want to get hit by a train, don't dance on the tracks.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2016 10:11 PM

2016-03-06T22:11:08-05:00

Best to air on the side of caution, especially If you are not feeling comfortable with the situation. Keeping things professional is always best.