How hard is it to chapter a Soldier with an approved retirement date?

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 Jun 2023 23:20:21 -0400

This is just a research question because I couldn’t find a solid answer in the regs.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2023 12:59 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 03 Jun 2023 00:59:05 -0400

Depends. How close is the retirement date? Chapter packets, sadly, can take quite a spell. Took about 2 years for 2 of my former Soldiers to be chaptered for APFT failure

Response by COL Randall C. made Jun 3 at 2023 8:37 AM

COL Randall C. — Sat, 03 Jun 2023 08:37:47 -0400

Since it likely means that Soldier has over 18 years of AFS (otherwise they wouldn't have an approved retirement date), you'll have an extremely high bar that has to be met because you'd be bumping up against federal law*. Because of this, HQDA must approve any involuntary discharge of a Soldier with 18 years or more of service unless it's due to the sentence of a court-martial or for physical disability.

This doesn't mean you can't process a Soldier to be discharged under another separation chapter, but it will likely have to be for serious misconduct (i.e., Chapter 10, 14, etc), and the separation will have to be approved at the Department level. If you were thinking along the lines of failure of the ABCP or something of the like, it likely would be a waste of time as the totality of service is considered when possibly denying an eligible Solider their retirement.

This doesn't mean a commander's hands are tied regarding other administration actions, if warranted, just that if anything affects the retirement it will have to be staffed through HRC to the approval authority (SECARMY or designated rep).
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* 10 U.S. Code § 1176 (retention of enlisted members with more than 18, but less than 20, years of service) - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/1176
* https://www.hrc.army.mil/content/Enlisted%20Separations%20Process

10 U.S. Code § 1176 - Enlisted members: retention after completion of 18 or more, but less than...

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Jun 3 at 2023 10:48 AM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Sat, 03 Jun 2023 10:48:09 -0400

If he is retiring, leave him alone. It used to aggravate me that ring bangers were so GI. He has done his time, why would anyone want to harass him now? Maybe he is old and worn out and cannot do PT like a 20 yoa soldier or a few too many beers have swollen his gut a bit, but that not a reason to throw him out short of his retirement

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 3 at 2023 6:05 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 03 Jun 2023 18:05:55 -0400

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Jun 3 at 2023 6:49 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Sat, 03 Jun 2023 18:49:28 -0400

Depends on what you are trying to chapter them for and whether leadership seems it necessary

Response by Capt Gregory Prickett made Jun 3 at 2023 7:02 PM

Capt Gregory Prickett — Sat, 03 Jun 2023 19:02:18 -0400

Unless you are willing to extend his enlistment for a General Court-Martial, you need to leave him alone. He's done his time, let him leave honorably.

Response by COL Dan Ruder made Jun 3 at 2023 9:55 PM

COL Dan Ruder — Sat, 03 Jun 2023 21:55:20 -0400

MAJ Taylor, I think some of the comments to you from others are quite good. BUT...the Soldier's commander (if that's not you) doesn't have to guess about this. The commander's resource in this case is your command's Inspector General (IG).
My Brigade CSM and I would frequently use the IG to clarify policies and responsibilities prescribed in various regulations; even when we thought that we had the answer, or reasonably could understand the regulation. In this regard, Co and Bn Cmd teams should also employ the IG. Importantly, some regulations will state that the "commander MUST initiate a separation action" based on the deficiency/offense. In this case of a Soldier with an approved retirement, the IG can clarify the regulation and tell the commander what responsibilities and what options the Cdr has.
Save yourself time and headache and engage your IG and make a sound decision using good judgment.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jun 4 at 2023 6:32 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sun, 04 Jun 2023 06:32:14 -0400

It is very hard. The reason would have to carry CM type weight. Anyone with 17 plus years deserves the benefit of the doubt. If you could not CM then why try to take away their livelihood. If it is then go after it.

Weigh the offense against the cost-grade times the retirement scale, times 35 plus years. Is that what he did wrong???

Response by SSG Marcus Oksa made Jul 6 at 2023 11:06 AM

SSG Marcus Oksa — Thu, 06 Jul 2023 11:06:18 -0400

Unless the soldier committed some egregious act, why f with them? They did 18, let them ride. Sounds like spite to me.

Response by SFC Clark Adams made Jul 23 at 2023 9:32 AM

SFC Clark Adams — Sun, 23 Jul 2023 09:32:03 -0400

What is the point of the Chapter action? Is the Soldier a major threat to or a disruption of the unit? Are you seeking " pay back" to a " short timer attitude "? Without the full picture, I say leave the Soldier alone and let them retire.

Response by SFC Aubrey Campbell made Sep 11 at 2023 2:24 PM

SFC Aubrey Campbell — Mon, 11 Sep 2023 14:24:59 -0400

I came up against this problem right before retirement(19) years. Command came after me because I took a “Soldier’s Stand” against racism. I faced a CM or retire. They let me retire peacefully. But I really wanted to soldier on. So, it can happen…you can loose your retirement depending on the circumstances.

Response by SSG Douglas Shaffer made Sep 12 at 2023 5:58 PM

SSG Douglas Shaffer — Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:58:00 -0400

If you are just researching and couldn't find the answer, then you must obviously have someone in mind. Otherwise, one wouldn't be wasting one's time looking into such an area or bring it to a forum for one, for this is called beating around the bush hoping someone will give you an idea or an avenue to use, this is why the IG is emplaced to answer your question or questions and as far as to what actions or enaction you can do.
Or is this for a taunt to hang over someone's last days of service, in which in many cases I have always found out it was just a matter of disliking someone and making them miserable during their time they have left.
I know from my own experience of someone trying to riff me out of service before my retirement date, due to their personal dislike of me. Because I had a number of Art. 15's in my junior enlisted years of service. Hey, I was a wild child.

Response by SSG Rick Miller made Sep 13 at 2023 7:56 PM

SSG Rick Miller — Wed, 13 Sep 2023 19:56:44 -0400

Now, why on earth would you want to chapter a soldier who intends to retire and has an approved date? Unless this troop is a total dirtbag, with a stack of disciplinary actions, this seems awfully petty. Do you have a valid reason to deny the troop his/her pension? If not, let him/her retire in peace, and go out honorably.

Response by MSgt Keith Morreira made Sep 14 at 2023 9:34 PM

MSgt Keith Morreira — Thu, 14 Sep 2023 21:34:58 -0400

Unless it is some Felony criminal charge just leave the guy alone. If you don't want to deal with him, let him check in and go to appointments and get his affairs in order.

Response by SP6 Greg Jetter made Sep 15 at 2023 4:35 PM

SP6 Greg Jetter — Fri, 15 Sep 2023 16:35:19 -0400

Just this question alone spotlights why recruitment is in the dumper . a soldier makes it 18+ years and still leadership tries to fuck with his or her retirement . you should be ashamed of yourself for even trying this crap , no wonder we will lose the next war , morons are in charge.

Response by 1LT Brandon Brackett made Sep 16 at 2023 5:31 PM

1LT Brandon Brackett — Sat, 16 Sep 2023 17:31:48 -0400

how about, don't be a richard. There is a reason you can't find it

Response by SA Clifford Junior made Sep 16 at 2023 8:00 PM

SA Clifford Junior — Sat, 16 Sep 2023 20:00:33 -0400

I agree you're retired .People should allow you to enjoy yourself .

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2023 5:04 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 Sep 2023 17:04:20 -0400

Its going to be tough, and if you are his/her commander then you are going to have to decide if the time and effort is worth it. Unless it is some majorly egregious act - its really not worth the time or effort. I would agree with Maj Reams, leave him alone; most of the time the folks that have approved retirement dates seem to slip into retired on active duty and start coming in late or start to slack on their appearance and you are just going to have to instruct them to maintain the minimums for the good of the unit until they are out. I made it a practice to ask myself, is he/she just retired on active duty or are they just trying to press my buttons? With some it was both, but for the most part it was road - and I needed to keep my ego in check.

Response by MSG Steve Collier made Sep 19 at 2023 7:21 PM

MSG Steve Collier — Tue, 19 Sep 2023 19:21:48 -0400

There's a special place in hell for those whose jollies are tickled by messing with retired service people... If it is for cause and legit, so be it, if it is for any other reason then reread my first phrase.

Response by CSM Rick Cassel made Sep 19 at 2023 10:09 PM

CSM Rick Cassel — Tue, 19 Sep 2023 22:09:43 -0400

I noticed in one of your comments SM is under 180 days. I am reading between the lines here, but it appears what you are trying to do is to somehow screw this guy out of his pension. I hope I'm wrong.

Response by SPC Francis Center made Sep 20 at 2023 5:00 PM

SPC Francis Center — Wed, 20 Sep 2023 17:00:53 -0400

Yes leave him alone.When I was in the Army,my first Sargent hated me.On the day I was to ets he gave me ok.I didn’t show up so he gave me an article 15.When I did show up he laughed and said I go ya.Never forget this sob

Response by LTC Lance Headrick made Sep 26 at 2023 5:36 AM

LTC Lance Headrick — Tue, 26 Sep 2023 05:36:31 -0400

I don't think there is a particular answer to the question. The Colonel did note, however, that there are a bunch of chapters that commanders must initiate. He can recommend against them but he must initiate. If we're talking about one of those, it's a waste of time. If you're talking about a chapter for serious misconduct? Any soldier can be extended.... But it was also pointed out that in some cases, it will require HQDA approval. So what? How bad does the CDR want to Chapter this guy....cause he may spend more political capital than he has. I know you said research, but it is part of the calculation.

Response by SSG Kimberly Hutchins made Oct 8 at 2023 7:29 AM

SSG Kimberly Hutchins — Sun, 08 Oct 2023 07:29:25 -0400

Why would anyone do something like this? Need more info but with the information given they did their time!

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Oct 8 at 2023 4:35 PM

1SG James Kelly — Sun, 08 Oct 2023 16:35:46 -0400

Don't know hard, but saw an E6 get chaptered for fooling around with his daughters friend (in Germany).

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Oct 9 at 2023 11:37 AM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Mon, 09 Oct 2023 11:37:33 -0400

Just curious, what would be reason enough for trying to chapter a SM who has a set retirement date? If there is not a CM case pending, what would you consider grounds to negate 18+ years of service with no pension?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2023 1:56 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Oct 2023 01:56:21 -0400

I am curious as to what lead you to this question. This doesn't seem like a question out of "the ether". But the answer is pretty clear from the responses.

Response by 1SG Alan Boggs made Oct 15 at 2023 6:46 AM

1SG Alan Boggs — Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:46:33 -0400

Why would you want to? Spite? What positive purpose would this serve for the Army? Moral in the US military is at an all time low and you want to show the junior troops that even if they go the distance, an officer can yank the carrot away at the last minute?

Response by MSgt Craig Gauger made Oct 15 at 2023 10:47 PM

MSgt Craig Gauger — Sun, 15 Oct 2023 22:47:39 -0400

Unless it's a capital crime or something heinous, concentrate on the overachievers and those who are eligible for early promotion or have earned solid decs. Recognize those that deserve it and let this one go.

Response by SFC Gerald Schulz made Nov 1 at 2023 4:48 PM

SFC Gerald Schulz — Wed, 01 Nov 2023 16:48:24 -0400

It's probably pretty hard as it should be. I retired in 04. If anyone tried that with me I'd still hold a grudge so I don't think it's wise. Hell if someone tried that on a friend I'd have problems with them personally. Chapters should be for earlier on in their careers to weed them out. If you've been ok with them for 18+ years then you're good.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2023 6:34 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Nov 2023 18:34:07 -0400

Once you are 24 months from retirement, i.e. hit that mark loosely called asylum, it is pretty tough. Basically, short of anything that is a court martial offense the Soldier must be allowed to retire. Look up AR 635-200 which mentions 10 USC 1176. Hope this helps.

Response by SSG James N. made Nov 2 at 2023 11:29 AM

SSG James N. — Thu, 02 Nov 2023 11:29:43 -0400

Let the guy be RODE, turn in his papers, and let the system retire him.I watched Ring Knocking Prince Hall's do this time after time along with the Good Ol Boy network.

Response by CWO4 Carter Owens made Nov 5 at 2023 8:17 AM

CWO4 Carter Owens — Sun, 05 Nov 2023 08:17:24 -0500

Not really sure about Army protocol but I've known Coasties getting the discharge package with 18 years in because the Member f**ks up. Mostly because of alcohol and or dope. Or the Member hid an Alcohol incident and baaaammm....... Security Clearance reviews catch them. It's crazy actually. I'll digress..... If the Soldier is in violation of the UCMJ then does an approved retirement letter protect them? That is the question.

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Nov 5 at 2023 12:38 PM

SSG Eric Blue — Sun, 05 Nov 2023 12:38:06 -0500

Interesting reads here.

Response by SCPO Lonny Randolph made Nov 5 at 2023 2:56 PM

SCPO Lonny Randolph — Sun, 05 Nov 2023 14:56:32 -0500

Inquiring minds want to know; why on earth are you researching punitive actions (I assume) on a Soldier who is about to retire? This stinks of the kind of thing companies used to do to people who were about to retire - find something they can be fired for so they don't have to pay the retirement. Of course, I could be entirely wrong about your motivation - maybe you are trying to find a way to retire him with a boost in pay...
Regardless I agree with Maj Ronnie Reams, leave the poor sod alone, he's done his duty and it time for him to move on to the next part of his life...

Response by CPL Mike Kiernan made Nov 5 at 2023 7:42 PM

CPL Mike Kiernan — Sun, 05 Nov 2023 19:42:28 -0500

Initiating a Adverse Action, such as a Chapter 11 or 13 that would hold up a Retirement, requires actual proof and facts, that substantiate the Chapter's criteria, to be presented at a Hearing. Said SM has the right to contest said Chapter action with countering proof and facts, and to do so with either JAG or Civilian Counsel. From personal experience I had a Commanding Officer that, for some reason, took a dislike to me and sent me on a Command Referral to the Division's Psychiatrist for a Fitness exam. When I got there the Psych' asked me why I was there and I told him, It took exactly 2 phone call's to have the Division Surgeon come in, and right behind him, the IG's SGM, hear what I had to say, and had me stay there pending. 3 hours later the Division Surgeon sent me back, AND MADE IT VERY CLEAR TO LET HIM KNOW IF ANY OF THIS WAS GOING ON ELSEWHERE. When I came back the C.O. had left, on a 'Leave', and never came back. Using Chapter's and threats of Command Referral's-for-Separation are both stupid and show a serious lack of Command awareness. It also reeks of Command Abuse, and more practically, a very public seen settling of grudge's and vendetta's, both that are not going to look good on an OER, much less a Formal Inspector General Report of Investigation.

Response by 1SG Brian Adams made Nov 25 at 2023 6:37 PM

1SG Brian Adams — Sat, 25 Nov 2023 18:37:34 -0500

Very, unless it is an egregious crime.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2023 10:20 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 11 Dec 2023 10:20:22 -0500

Probably very easy since they tried to chapter me under enlisted regs when I was an officer. I fought it and won in Federal court under APA. But the Board of Corrections disregarded the Cort's opinion. So, yeah, they can do pretty much what they want and then the burden is on you to fight it. Mine happened in 2006 and since then I have written a nonfiction names named book about it. The only thing I got out of my calling was PTSD.

Response by COL Thomas McGrath made Dec 11 at 2023 9:54 PM

COL Thomas McGrath — Mon, 11 Dec 2023 21:54:14 -0500

If the soldier is retiring I’d leave him alone unless it’s criminal. Also don’t you get locked in at 18 years?

Response by CPT Endre Barath made Dec 17 at 2023 12:12 AM

CPT Endre Barath — Sun, 17 Dec 2023 00:12:37 -0500

I am so with Maj Ronnie Reams he is spot on....

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2023 9:25 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Dec 2023 09:25:43 -0500

What did this guy do? He’d need to be guilty of murder for his retirement to be messed with.

Response by LTC Jerry Gordon made Jan 10 at 2024 10:48 PM

LTC Jerry Gordon — Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:48:49 -0500

Yes, leave him alone. What comes around goes around, remember that!

Response by CPO Michael Sharron made Jan 11 at 2024 4:05 PM

CPO Michael Sharron — Thu, 11 Jan 2024 16:05:15 -0500

There are different rules for senior enlisted (E-7 to E-10) personnel with regard to punishment/discharge/forced retirement. Commanding officers are not permitted to a reduction of rate/rank, discharge, or forced retirement for these members. With extremely few exceptions, these will take place at a flag officer level.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Jan 14 at 2024 9:50 PM

1SG James Kelly — Sun, 14 Jan 2024 21:50:34 -0500

An E6, chapter 10 for messing with one of his daughters friends. In Germany; what a mess for his family.

Response by SFC Jerald Bottcher made Jan 19 at 2024 1:21 AM

SFC Jerald Bottcher — Fri, 19 Jan 2024 01:21:00 -0500

Once a soldier has an approved retirement date (18 years or longer in service) it becomes very hard. Once a soldier has an approved retire date they do not have to pass the PT test, Weight control, and many other things.
Now if the soldier commits a UCMJ offence like popping hot on a urinalysis, or a DWI. or some other serious offence, then it can be done, but the chapter has to be approved by the Department of the Army

Response by MSG Bob S made Feb 17 at 2024 11:32 PM

MSG Bob S — Sat, 17 Feb 2024 23:32:55 -0500

To what end? If it’s to be vindictive, then you my friend, are part of the reason why recruitment and retention is at its lowest point. Leave the SM be, unless it is an egregious crime.

Response by SFC William Fowler made Mar 9 at 2024 4:41 PM

SFC William Fowler — Sat, 09 Mar 2024 16:41:55 -0500

It is very easy to chapter out a soldier until the minute he retires. The regulations are set up to provide the protection to officers, not enlisted. The officers can ask for retirement in lieu of Admin discharge/court-martial and it is usually approved. When the indef enlistment was pass it was to treat the senior enlisted ranks like officers, in my experience that only happens with the SGMs, sometimes the FSG/MSG. Don't get me wrong the senior enlisted ranks can ask to be retired in lieu of admin discharge (I even believe that there is a checkbox for that) but very rarely is it approved, in regardless of how many conflicts, deployments, years of service rendered. Basically, enlisted can be tossed aside as the officers are the ones who come up the regulations. They truly take care of their own. It's not just a saying for them but the NCO corps says it but don't walk the walk per se. As seen by the respondents, who are mostly officers, there is a claim of totality of service (I would call lip service) but in reality, it is just the most recent moment. Look at what they did with the Vietnam vets - dishonorable or OTH which leaves it in the hands of the soldier. The review board for discharge has a 3% change rate, but majority of the retired officers will not change the discharge since that questions the integrity of the officer who approved the discharge.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Mar 10 at 2024 9:09 AM

SFC Robert Walton — Sun, 10 Mar 2024 09:09:49 -0400

Not really enough information to give a fair answer to this question. What is the reason for chapter after lock in of retirement. I delt with this a couple of times while i was in but it really depends on the circumstance's on what you would do.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Mar 10 at 2024 9:35 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 10 Mar 2024 21:35:46 -0400

Sometimes we need to practice compassion and look at situations from different perspectives. I don't know all the specifics. However, I talked to a person who supported an NCO who got busted for using cocaine around the time he wanted to retire. I was expecting the usual this NCO is a great NCO and patriot. but I was somewhat stunned when the person said with conviction and passion the said NCO was a hero and saved lives of soldiers in his unit during a fire fight. They let him retire. I concur with the decision. I had severe PTSD and the reason I was able to retire was due to compassion. It's easy to make mistakes when you are in that state of mind.

Response by PVT Shawn McDonnell made Mar 18 at 2024 6:18 PM

PVT Shawn McDonnell — Mon, 18 Mar 2024 18:18:07 -0400

With no indication (or even attempt to explain) what the infraction(s) might be, this looks like a fishing expedition. It’s probably very improper to take the question to a forum, rather than the IG or a Superior above yourself.

Lots of great points about propriety, morale and how the action could be viewed are brought up, and all are valid.

If there’s no criminal component, no risk of health or security to others, and this Soldier isn’t diddling your wife, why even ask the question at this stage?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2024 11:40 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 Mar 2024 11:40:55 -0400

It would be almost impossible, and why be a jerk just let the guy /girl retire, I don’t know the reason why you would want to do that to a person who served for 20 yrs. Food for thought if the person is a E7 or above you can’t all you can do is recommend to a higher authority then you it will take a full bird to it and still will have to go to the DOD because he/she is already approved for retirement

Response by CSM Laurence Williams made Mar 30 at 2024 1:44 PM

CSM Laurence Williams — Sat, 30 Mar 2024 13:44:30 -0400

If he already has an approved retirement date, leave him alone. If he has committed a crime, then prosecute him and let the courts martial board decide his fate.

Response by LTC Jorge Cordero made Apr 14 at 2024 9:18 AM

LTC Jorge Cordero — Sun, 14 Apr 2024 09:18:44 -0400

Perhaps it was all rumors or just an out right lie, but I heard that one of the reasons congress approved "Sanctuary" when you hit 18 years was because the military was really good at forcing members out right before they got close to their 20 year pension and this way no pension was paid. So short of committing treason or murder, you must have a very good reason if this soldiers is that close to retirement.

Response by SSG Tammy Joy Partridge made Apr 27 at 2024 5:13 PM

SSG Tammy Joy Partridge — Sat, 27 Apr 2024 17:13:01 -0400

Get an answer the from the command that approved the order. Start there.