How has the "New Army" affected you?

2016-02-02T05:53:12-05:00

As Leaders, I want to know how this "New Army" shenanigans has affected you.. and let me apologize if im not using the correct term, affected, or effected, though im sure it is affected.

On to the moral of this matter, how has this changed how your subordinates acted towards you as a leader?

Let me start by saying I am a new Sergeant. Coming up through my 7 years of service, i have been physically disciplined through "smoke sessions". I ask because I recently had a PFC to say something out of the way to me. The PFC and I were talking business, he is a SAMS clerk, we were discussing vehicles out for repairs. He remained seated while speaking, which of course I dont mind, but then 1SG entered the room, and spoke to the PFC. He continued sitting in his response. This is a new 1SG so it was not a situation of the PFC knowing him and that the 1SG was fine with him relaxing. Anyway, when the 1SG entered the room, I explained to the PFC that he is to stand at parade rest when speaking to the 1SG l, especially one we did not know yet. He mouthed a little. I then asked if he was on a profile in which he responded yes. I then asked if he had the paper and if it prevented him from doing cherry pickers. He then said to me, and I quote, "Sergeant, this is the New Army, smoking is not allowed anymore, thats what paperwork is for." This guy is a long time PFC with no chance of promotion anytime soon.

How would you handle this? Anyine have similar stories, and what was the outcome?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 6:11 AM

2016-02-02T06:11:04-05:00

If no papers I would make him do every exercise I could think of but with papers everything within his limits til I'm tired. I was on cq had this Pfc that had visitors after hours and then he didn't escort them out when I sent the runner to get them out of my barracks. He finally came down I told them they can leave and I asked him does he know the policy for visitors, he kept guessing and talking with his hands. I said how bout you get at parade rest his exact response was "but SGT IM IN CIVILIANS" I flipped total shit on his ass!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 6:28 AM

2016-02-02T06:28:21-05:00

SGT, smoke sessions have never been officially authorized, the correct term is corrective action through physical exercise (CAPE) this can be referenced within FM 7-22 of the Phisycal Readiness Training Manual, in which you will find 10 authorized exercises. Although this scenario would have made me upset, it really doesn't merit the PT. The most appropriate corrective action you could have taken is that you start by "not minding" the soldier standing at parade rest for "you" , explaining proper customs and courtesies and to remind this individual of his position and where he works at. He clearly is not your soldier, but there is this nice thing called NCOs general military authority in which you could have returned with a DA 4856 stating disrespect towards you and the 1SG (for flapping his gums ) and then give it to him IN FRONT of his first line leader, mainly to show whomever is his boss that someone has to correct his soldier, this may upset his boss too. Then in the corrective action you have many options, from company level classes, to essays etc. You would be surprised at how many Soldiers would prefer to get "smoked" rather than build a presentations and deliver it to an entire company. Once you counsel and he possibly refuses to sign as a result of some bogus barracks lawyer answer, you will then proceed to still give him the timeline for his class, once he doesn't deliver ( due to sick call, random appointment etc) you type another counseling stating soldier failed to perform corrective training, inform his first line leader, let the 1SG know and then you wil see the magic happen. Bottom line is this, YOU ARE AN NCO ENFORCE THE STANDARDS!!, the "don't mind" was your first mistake which would have prevented you from even having to listen to that soldier even talk back to you. The Army is the same it had not changed, what changes is the people that come in and those that are SCARED TO MAKE CORRECTIONS!. I hope this helps, have a great day counseling that guy.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 6:54 AM

2016-02-02T06:54:02-05:00

Ok, lets go ahead and add that I did counsel this soldier, and I did take a copy to 1SG and informed him I took care of the matter which I seen was incorrect.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Feb 2 at 2016 6:57 AM

2016-02-02T06:57:04-05:00

Maybe it is because I've been removed from the Army for so long or maybe it is me just being dumb but where does this notion of a "New Army" come from? During my brief 8.5 years on Active Duty, I kept hearing that phrase over and over again. "It's a new Army..." But is it really a new Army or are leaders forgetting the basics. Why didn't someone call for At Ease when the 1SG entered the office? That would have gotten the SM up and off his seat. So is it really a "New Army" or are we as leaders, making it "new" by not upholding the standards until challenged to do so?

Response by SSG Stan Morrison Jr made Feb 2 at 2016 7:12 AM

2016-02-02T07:12:58-05:00

Back in the day, this wasn't ever a problem. I've been out now for a few years ( read 20 here, lol), when a superior, be it an NCO or Officer, troops launched to their feet. Usually, with the screech of the chair feet. If a soldier didnt, corrective action was immediate. So, New Army vs Old Army? I was in during the cold war and the gulf war. Things were vastly different. BCT and AIT we were "smoked" continuously if I remember correctly. There were no amnesty cards if you thought the DS's were being mean. They were mean, but they were doing their jobs. Anyhow, that's my perspective. It may be a little "dusty", but it is what it is.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 7:47 AM

2016-02-02T07:47:44-05:00

A lot! We're doomed.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 8:21 AM

2016-02-02T08:21:38-05:00

SGT, the "new army" didn't just happen. It came over time and it came from purple relaxing the standard. How is that PFC that you already said is never going anywhere supposed to get better if he doesn't strand at parade rest for you. Changes start from the bottom, either you need to hold your soldiers to THE STANDARD or they will never succeed. Just my 2 cents.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 8:23 AM

2016-02-02T08:23:42-05:00

I think it is easier to get rid of the dirt bag Soldiers you described with a paper trail. If you only smoke them, then the only incentive they have in not doing that action again is fear and there is nothing concrete to prove a pattern of misconduct. Having that trail of counselings allows the command and legal to chapter someone if they just don't get it.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 8:33 AM

2016-02-02T08:33:17-05:00

I find this topic interesting because from 1977-1999 I never heard the term smoke session used once. But I see it used often here. Sure, in basic and AIT physical exercise was used to get soldiers attention but once they got to units I never really saw that used for discipline. Now, there was plenty of "drop and give me ten" but that was usually used in response to a soldier doing something like not paying attention and doing a left face when the command was right face, or forgetting something and having to run back into the barracks to get it. There was almost a piece of humor in getting dropped, more of an embarrassment thing than discipline. But doing ten or twenty pushups certainly didnt last long enough for anyone to refer to it as a session.

But something like a soldier mouthing off to an NCO was not accepted at all and wouldn't be dealt with with PT anyway. A soldier might get a verbal counseling the first time it happened, but after that it would go down on paper. Part of the reason was that if you didnt start a paper chain then previous infractions couldnt be used as incidents of misconduct during chapter actions. There used to be a problem getting habitual shitheads chaptered because NCOs didnt want to bother with written counselings. But when they would finally decide enough was enough and want action, it wouldbe like. "OK, let's see his file " and the answer was "What file?" No file of written counseling basically meant no chapter. So there was a big push to start documenting things.

So I wonder when the term smoke session came into use. To me, it seems like a "New Army" term while today it appears to be an "Old Army" thing.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 8:49 AM

2016-02-02T08:49:15-05:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member, I'd recommend finding this kid's trade mechanism. Everyone has it. Some people don't mind being corrected through physical exercise and see it as fun. Others despise it and it's a good tool. This kid obviously has some kind of authority problem, but he has something that he enjoys that can be taken away from him. It's different with every person. Find the thing that tweaks this guy properly and employ it rigorously. This requires that you know the Soldier well and know what he enjoys more than anything in the world. It could be his time, physical exercise, smoke breaks, whatever. Then strip him of it due to his insubordination. Either that or put it on paper and build a file of substandard performance and insubordination. Ensure that you get other statements from people around him including his other supervisors. General substandard performance is hard to chapter someone on unless you have corroborating information from others.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 9:21 AM

2016-02-02T09:21:01-05:00

The "New Army" hasn't bothered me. I still discipline when needed and don't allow my subordinates to disrespect me. The trick is to hold your soldiers to the same standard at all times. You can't be their buddy one day and their NCO the next. It is confusing. Just remember that you should demand the same respect from everyone and equally give respect as it is given. If you remain constant they always know what to expect.

Note: Greetings to fellow TNARNG soldier.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 10:08 AM

2016-02-02T10:08:56-05:00

Allow me to explain my thoughts on this. Every generation of Army talks about the old generation of Army. When I joined the Army people were complaining about the "new" Army, having been in during Desert Storm. Now we talk about the "new" Army comparing it to the "old" Army of when I joined.

Listen, the old Army sucked, and 20 years from now hopefully this Army will have sucked as well (we should always be looking to improve our organization). I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but I joined the Army when it was ok to sexually assault each other, haze each other, berate each other publicly, and generally treat people/Soldiers like garbage.

Which is why, since I became an NCO in 2003, I never once made a Soldier do pushup or "smoke" them. It's unnecessary and frankly in most cases unprofessional and has nothing to do with the offense committed. Any leadership manual you read, military or civilian, clearly indicates that you need to treat people like humans to get ahead. However, for some reason, we look back nostalgically on some fairly ridiculous behavior that we used to (and sometimes still do) engage in.

It doesn't build morale or camaraderie, it builds distrust and resentment.

And Soldiers ask questions and "why" now. So what. Again, take to leadership manuals (especially corporate or business ones) and you will see that motivation is higher when you take the time to explain the impacts of a mission and why it is important. If you need another example, talk to someone in a support role, such as anything from a welder to intel. Explain to them why their welding of this or that is important and how it allows you to fight their mission, or how that intel specifically saved someone (or how we could improve the support to address a failure) and watch their eyes light up and give them motivation.

I also don't miss the time in the Army when I rolled to OIF I in Vietnam-era flak vests because we had no money. And we might get back to that point, but we aren't there now.

And for people that say the "new" Army promoted people too fast making bad leaders - whose fault is that? That's right, the people of the "old" Army. Because we recommended them, promoted them, and sat on centralized promotion boards and promoted them again.

I also enjoy that NCOs of today's Army are far more educated statistically speaking than NCOs of the past.

Some decisions in the military I don't agree with. But that's the ebb and flow of any organization.

So how has it affected me? It really hasn't.

I respond by asking you this question - how would doing cherry pickers help rectify the situation you described above, besides potentially embarrassing the Soldier publicly? People scoff at essays and similar punishments, but the value of forcing a Soldier to dig into a regulation 1) teaches them why they are wrong on a particular situation, 2) introduces them to the long-term fix of looking up your questions, and 3) avoids silly public and useless punishment (which is really against the intent anyway as it says punishment should address the infraction).

If I was your First Sergeant, you and your Platoon Sergeant would be explaining to me the value of having a Soldier do cherry pickers instead of something that is more in line with the Army's intent and useful.

Being a leader is being adaptive. Smoking Soldiers for no reason may have been acceptable 15 years ago, but it's not now. If leaders can't handle the change in environment, they need to get out. This is the same for leaders who are in a new MOS but "grew up in combat arms." If you can't change your mentality, get out. I too was a combat arms NCO and switched to intel. If you can't handle that change, you aren't a leader.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 10:15 AM

2016-02-02T10:15:14-05:00

There is no such thing as a "new" First Sergeant. If he didn't get that PFC on his feet when he was addressing him, then that is apparently the standard in your unit, sadly. What I'd do if I were you in this situation is have a talk with the Soldier about what right looks like. If the climate is relaxed in your unit, it isn't going to change because of what you do, but you can be the model of what right looks like. If you expect PFC Tentpeg to stand at parade rest when addressing the 1SG, then YOU need to stand at parade rest when speaking to the 1SG. Let the 1SG decide when to tell you to relax.

As for corrective training, I think you'd be better served to have his FLL address it. Refer counseling and any corrective measures over, for now. If it becomes clear that this is disrespect oriented towards you, then that is a horse of a different color requiring a more hands on and assertive answer.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 10:27 AM

2016-02-02T10:27:55-05:00

I wish the Air Force had a little more discipline. I was a cadet in the Civil Air Patrol for 10 years, hence why I joined the Air Force. My Unit Commander was a retired Army Ranger, and believe me when I went to basic training, I was in shock of how easy and laid back it was, compared to what my commanding officer in the cadet corps taught me. The military as a whole is becoming so laid back, that sometimes I question how effective will new service members be when things start heating up. Completely out of topic though, just a small thought.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 10:57 AM

2016-02-02T10:57:27-05:00

I wouldn't compare the army now to how it used to be. It has been the United States Army for the last 240 years. Sure, some things have changed for better or worse, but as much as things have changed, they have also stayed the same. The difference is many of the newer Soldiers, that are now becoming leaders, were brought up in a time where Customs and Courtesies (among other things) were not enforced or even taught because of the high OPTEMP during GWOT. The truth is, now with deployments being few-and-far-between, the US Army will move toward more of a garrison force and all those things that were thrown on the back burner will once again become important. The standards are there. It's up to you to enforce those standards.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 11:16 AM

2016-02-02T11:16:16-05:00

I must say, as a fairly new NCO (20150101) currently on the PPRL for E6, this thread has definitely taught me a few things. I've had situations where Soldiers have come close to being how this PFC was however it never got that far. As an AGR Soldier I bounce around from unit to unit every few years and deal with Reserve Soldiers who pretty much are lax on their customs and courteousies etc.
to read what many of the 1SGs and SFC have said in this thread I think have given me tools to prepare me if this situation would arise. I must say I would've probably done some kinda corrective action in the form of PT too just because it was done to me and I turned out ok, but that's probably the thinking and logic that is frowned upon as it should be. We as leaders have to enforce the standards because if we don't, we are grooming future leaders who will not enforce or even know them...
Thanks for all the knowledge!!!!

SGT(P) Reed

Response by SPC James Dollins made Feb 2 at 2016 11:27 AM

2016-02-02T11:27:31-05:00

I came in in 2002. I don't see anything wrong w/ being 'smoked' or corrective training. The idea of the kindler gentler Army is for the trash! I don't think you should have to explain correct customs & courtesies! I also think that while it is generally the junior NCO's job to police up his soldiers when they're ate up. 1SG should have straightened that soldier up when it happened!! I DO agree that there is and has been a 'New' Army coming up for years. Today's soldiers don't have as much bearing as we (my time of new soldiers) coming up. I find it really pathetic to be honest!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 11:29 AM

2016-02-02T11:29:51-05:00

Smoke til puke. That is all. This troop will only learn to respect authority through fear of physical punishment. It's a sad state of affairs but troops like that do exist.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 12:05 PM

2016-02-02T12:05:19-05:00

I really gotta say, I cannot believe the responses I have been getting. Hateful messages in private even. Let Me address a few things... first, He is my soldier, second i did NOT run to first sergeant to "parade" myself for counseling. Third, this is the national guard, and like it or not, substandard is the way it comes just about everywhere as far as culture and respect for the ranks goes anymore. Fourth, I said I was a new nco, other than a few actual helpful answers here, ive learned nothing more than how sorry I am, and how to berate people on a message board. Before determining facts on intent, ask questions. Those of you saying exercise dont work as corrective action obviously are either studs or crazy. Sure as hell worked for me. Once I screwed up and done my dues I didn't wanna mess up like that anymore. Also, last thing, this was not do his embarrassment, as we were alone. I will never discipline anyone in front of others. Thats about all I got to say on this, thanks to those who put in a positive input, keep it classy!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 12:18 PM

2016-02-02T12:18:30-05:00

It's not a "new army". I like to think of it as a "new standard". Every single time a leader let's something slide they create a new standard. This PFC doesn't even know he did something wrong, cause of the new standard he or she has been around. It starts with the little things. If an NCO doesn't stand at parade rest for a 1SG why should the PFC???? New standard.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Feb 2 at 2016 1:33 PM

2016-02-02T13:33:11-05:00

Gonna have to call bullshit on this one. If you let a PFC tell you that you cannot do "corrective training" that is your fault. Also, when a 1SG or CSM enters a room you should be calling at ease.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Feb 2 at 2016 1:33 PM

2016-02-02T13:33:13-05:00

I was in the "New Army" back during and after Viet Nam, and there was a lot of bad morale with RIFFS, new officers coming in and telling us we lost the war because we did not know how to win it, etc. It was pretty bad. As others have said - there is always the way it was and the "New Army", which in turn fades. It is all about motivation and morale. If these fade, then everyone is in trouble. Good luck - no matter where we are in our lives - some days we are the statue, and some days we are the pigeon. Good luck!

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 2:42 PM

2016-02-02T14:42:29-05:00

Google: "Corrective Training/ Corrective Action Guide for Leaders" if you're worried about being in the wrong, good guidance from army.mil IT'S office. I like being creative with my corrective training. For a PFC who is too relaxed around NCOs, I would place the requirement on him to stand at parade rest for all NCOs, regardless of how well he knew them and communicate that to the other NCOS in the office. Corrective training can be useful when used proerly.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 3:29 PM

2016-02-02T15:29:23-05:00

AR 600-20 paragraph 4-20:

When authorized by the chain of command and when not unnecessarily cruel, abusive, oppressive or harmful, the following do not constitute hazing: administrative corrective measures including a reasonable number of repetitions of authorized physical exercises.

FM 7-22:

Corrective training is often used incorrectly resulting in over training or overuse injuries. These sessions are not smoke sessions. Authorized exercises include: Rower, Squat Bender, Windmill, Prone Row, Push up, V-up, Leg Tuck and Twist, Supine Bike, Swimmer, 8 Count Push up. Only these exercises may be selected. The number of repetitions should not exceed 5
As for him thinking he knows it all and disrespecting you and top counsel him with his corrective training as give a formal class to his peers on those subjects using power point. Give him specific details as to the class time slide count ect. SM then has to go learn what the regulations say and understand them. As for him being on profile each event has an modified way to do it if the soldiers profile say he can do the modified therse your corrective exercise. However its past that point and time to put it on paper.

Some advise for you: Regulations, know them and implement. no one can argue with you when it comes to a regulation. When chalenged by a soldier do not engage in an arguement. Walk away type your counseling if necessary grab your battle buddy and go counsel. As long as the corrective training fits the crime they can either do it and be done or refuse to do it and be 1 step closer to ucmj. Understand that you can not force anyone to do anything, that soldier makes a choice when you tell him to do something and his choice will have consequences, good or bad.... its there choice. In a situation like this he thinks he won. Type the counseling and correct the deficiency. The ARMY has changed, but it has changed to the point that we as NCOs can no longer act like we know what we are talking about. We HAVE to know the regulations. If you know them you can shoot responses like that down on the spot and get your soldiers going down the right path.

Sorry for any grammer or spelling errors typed this on my phone and Im in a hurry

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 5:26 PM

2016-02-02T17:26:11-05:00

I want to thank everyone for their input, even those who had the nerve to insult me in messages, ive learned a lot thru this correspondence. Im going to try this drill weekend to implement some Of the ideas here. another thing to keep in mind, im a new nco as well as new to this unit, so im still learning their ways. Every unit is different as to hiw they uphold the standard set by the army.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Feb 2 at 2016 5:45 PM

2016-02-02T17:45:00-05:00

Smartass!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 6:16 PM

2016-02-02T18:16:12-05:00

It's sounds to me like you have a "barracks lawyer" on your hands. As SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member posted, this is covered in FM 7-22. If it were me, I would probably have the troop find the regulation and then execute five repetitions of 8 count pushups. At that point you would be initiating corrective training as well as a corrective action.

Frankly, I think the 5 repetition rule is ineffective to accomplish a point and PRT is by and large worthless. Those are other discussions however.

Response by SSG Keith Cashion made Feb 2 at 2016 7:23 PM

2016-02-02T19:23:43-05:00

SGT Beau Young. So, I think I missed something in this thread. I got that you are a "New Sergeant," but wasn't part of the process for you to become a Sergeant, you had to complete an NCOES, I had PLDC (How long ago was that...Along time) and now it is ALC, which part of it was explaining what is means to be a leader and how to be a leader. But keeping that in mind, you have 7 years of military experience...hhhmmmm, did your previous leaders "Not Mind" or did you do the right thing and go to the position of parade rest when leaders entered a room? Here is what I see happening with a lot of New NCO's and the difficulty of being able to transition into that leadership role. They forget that they are no long Specialist and below. When I pinned my Sergeant stripes, I remember the words that My Commander and First Sergeant told me, " You are no longer one of the lower enlisted, Joe's or even troops. You are now an NCO, so you are expected to heed the NCO Creed that you just recited." Do they even still do that for Soldier's that are stepping into the NCO Ranks?

Soldiers will always try to see how far they can go or push their luck with someone, and if they see they can get away with something little (Staying seated when speaking to an NCO), then they will keep pushing ("Sergeant, this is the New Army, smoking is not allowed anymore, that's what paperwork is for.") And you just let him.

A word of advice, Next time you have to deal with this Soldier or any Soldier (Doesn't matter if he has 900 years in and no chance of promotion), Act like the Non-Commissioned Officer you are supposed to be and do you job. This does not mean become a total TOOL either. Go back to basics and explain to the Soldier that the Army has something called Customs and Courtesies and that the rank and position you hold are deserving the respect that comes with it. Just make sure that you earn respect from Soldiers by showing respect....trust me in the long run it will make you a better NCO.

As to the "New or Old Army" question, there is only one Army, now your job is to be a good leader in this Army.

Good Luck.

Half Nickel of the Day.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 10:06 PM

2016-02-02T22:06:58-05:00

700-22 may say five repititions. It does not say how long a wait must occur between exercises to administer another set of five. Or, if you switch between one set of exercises to another and never exceed five, you would be under the letter of the reg

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 10:29 PM

2016-02-02T22:29:42-05:00

I'm currently at a school with all branches, where the instructors have said if someone dozes off they can no longer call them out....therefore making it seemingly ok to doze off. That annoys me.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2016 12:09 AM

2016-02-03T00:09:08-05:00

The term "New Army" I've heard echo through my military career. It's the new generation slogan stating that things are more relaxed. I agree leadership can make or break the atmosphere. I would say counsel him if he doesn't care. No room for people with that negative attitude.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2016 1:27 AM

2016-02-03T01:27:26-05:00

When I was a PFC my PL SGT explained smoking was no longer allowed. However, if you are doing pushups or whatever physical activity you choose alongside them, it isn't considered smoking. It's just extra PT or helping them prepare for their APFT. I've never had to do such, but then again, I make certain my soldiers know it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2016 1:36 AM

2016-02-03T01:36:39-05:00

I have been a sergeant for 2 years now and have noticed the drastic change in power base in the Army. NCO's are suppose to be the backbone of the Army. With this change it seems that Junior enlisted hold more power then NCO'S, do to the fact that our corrective training is limited to 10 exercises only being able to do one of them with 5 reps. We are then forced into doing paperwork. To me paperwork does not really teach someone a lesson that will be remembered. I have had numerous accounts of insubordination; not doing what was asked of them. They do not fear paper to ensure they will not do the action again. I have learned that under Article 91 of the UCMJ which states "(2) willfully disobeys the lawful order of a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct." With this Article in place if the soldier proceeded to continue the act I can counsel the soldier on these acts. When I have 3 counselings, I can get the soldier for pattern of misconduct. If we can not do corrective training and the soldier consistently disobeys, I believe the soldier should not be allowed to stay in the military.

Response by SFC A.M. Drake made Feb 3 at 2016 6:03 AM

2016-02-03T06:03:42-05:00

TRADOC Regulation 350-6
(1) Corrective Training. Corrective training is for Soldiers who have demonstrated that they need, and would benefit from, additional instruction or practice in a particular skill. Corrective training should be directly related to the military skill that the Soldier is deficient in and assist him/her in meeting the standard.
(2) Corrective Action. Non-punitive actions used as a motivational tool by authorized cadre members (see 2.5a(3)) to immediately address deficiencies in performance or conduct and to reinforce required standards. By virtue of administering corrective action, there is recognition that the misconduct did not result from intentional or gross failure to comply with standards of military conduct. Corrective action is inappropriate for situations requiring additional training to master a specific level of skill proficiency, or in matters where punishment is administered as a result of Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) action.
(3) Physical exercise for corrective action. Requiring Soldiers to perform a reasonable number of repetitions of authorized physical exercises IAW TC 3-22.20 as a motivational tool is permitted for corrective action. However, consideration must be given to the exercises, repetitions, and total number of times each day that exercise is used for corrective action to limit the potential for overtraining and injuries.
Corrective Action is an “attention getter” for a minor infraction and is limited to five repetitions of a Physical Readiness Training (PRT) exercise contained in TC 3.22-20.

Response by SGT Justin Anderson made Feb 4 at 2016 12:38 PM

2016-02-04T12:38:07-05:00

Remind him through a physical smoke session of how wrong he is, while doing so explain to him why he is wrong, and be calm about it. I have found that if you are calm and respond to them like an adult and implement some physical punishment he will get the message.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2016 2:29 PM

2016-02-04T14:29:47-05:00

i've been around since May of 2000 and the new army has taught me to not let anything surprise me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2016 8:55 PM

2016-02-04T20:55:08-05:00

Change is good but we as leaders have to remember what may have worked for us isn't going to work for the next. The soldiers that are coming now are smarter they may not be as strong. Look at all of the new equipment that is coming out it is more Technical and tech savvy now then before. Just remember as leaders we adapt And over come.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Feb 4 at 2016 11:38 PM

2016-02-04T23:38:00-05:00

What is the Army version of keel hauling?

Response by CPO Steve Jackson made Feb 5 at 2016 5:51 PM

2016-02-05T17:51:29-05:00

I am very much against 'smoking' a Solider/Sailor/Airman/Marine. They are adults and not in bootcamp anymore. As an E7 (Navy Chief Petty Officer) I can tell you, one motto to live by is "reprimand in private, praise in public." what effect does 'smoking' do other than embarrass that person? As a leader, one is expected to Lead. Does one want to lead by fear and intimidation? or would one rather want to lead by having those under them follow them out of loyalty and trust?

If you had a junior Soldier who started showed up late to formation, and whose uniform is not is good condition, what would the first response be of the 'old school' mindset? "smoke em! beat them! yell at them!" Maybe you could take them aside and talk to them, you could find out that they have a pregnant wife and their car is in need of repairs and low on funds. That "old School smoke 'em, beat them, yell at them NCO" would not know that because that junior enlisted would probably be afraid of talking to them. This is not always the case, but it can happen.

Would you, as a Sergeant, want to be 'smoked' for a minor infraction? humiliated? or would you have more respect if they talked to you like a person and explained what you did wrong, and why it was wrong? that is not a sign of weakness.

We are in a day and age when enlisted individuals are coming in with college degrees, advanced training and skills that were not seen, five or ten years ago. Questioning can be a good thing, we, as leaders, do not want those who will follow blindly.

One of the moments that sticks out most in my mind was when I was in Bahrain, an E6, got a verbal ass chewing by an E9 in front of a large group of people because his hair was not in regulations. do you want to know what? he had a skin condition preventing him from getting a haircut. He had medical documentation. "smoking" someone is similar to that event.

How does doing humiliating PT correct that action? fear? I can totally see how doing push-ups will correct disrespectful actions from happening again, that is much sarcasm.

The moral is to reprimand, take that person aside, and reprimand them. If they do a good job, do it in public. that is a sign of a good leader.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2016 12:27 PM

2016-02-06T12:27:55-05:00

An NCO enforces the standards, all of them. You don't get to pick and choose which ones you want to enforce today or tomorrow. If you had been enforcing the standard of military customs and courtesies, this should not have even happened. The PFC would have already been at parade rest while talking with you. Did you acknowledge when the 1SG entered the room? The easiest way to be fair is to always enforce the regulations. If you do the same across the board, no one can accuse you of being unjust. Now on to the next issue. There are better alternatives to discipline subordinates rather than a smoke session. Learn to engage their mind while correcting their behavior. Have them do a class on military customs and courtesies. Make sure they do their research, and reference the proper AR's.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2016 12:52 PM

2016-02-07T12:52:36-05:00

Funny story about the "New Army". Every seems to say after a few years they start refering to the army as the new army. I will say that when I went to basic training I was smoked for a while whist when I was first stationed at fort sill I watched a couple of Drill SGTs. "smoke" a couple of privates (10 pushups) and then had them go on there way. Personally I think part of it may have gotten softer and I can't say I necessarily like it. Yes part does make life easier however my favorite phrase to hear. "your just a SPC why do I care" oh yes it does die down however it did come to a shock the first time that I saw what the new army entailed.

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Feb 7 at 2016 6:23 PM

2016-02-07T18:23:12-05:00

Funny to me that just this morning I ran into an article about the Army doing some "research" costing 3.2 Billion all to figure out why the Marine Corps outperforms them.

It doesn't take 3.2 Billion to submit this entire thread as the answer.

Marines generally don't cry about "being smoked". It started in Boot Camp where Drill Instructors could and would smoke you at will, having you do practically anything under the sun without them striking you themselves.

No one really LIKES being smoked...thus its generally a strong enough deterrent to poor behavior.

Sometimes your New NCOIC would also smoke all the new faces upon checking into a unit (the next day, not in their coats and ties) just to pound it home who is now in charge. I don't really remember anyone crying about that, either.

Perhaps the difference in the general character of the SM goes back prior to joining. Where some of you ( in this seemingly "Army" thread, were possibly just too scared to join the Corps. I know that fits for some of you (certainly not all of you), and I know that none of you would ever admit it, and all of that is OK. I'm merely pointing out the the Corps doesn't take in as much potential Boo-Friggin-Who in the first place.

Respectfully,
Semper Fi.

Response by PO2 Frank Hickman made Feb 7 at 2016 7:12 PM

2016-02-07T19:12:36-05:00

Now I can't really speak to the Army but if you talked at parade rest in the Navy you got a dressing down...at least when I was in.

Response by SFC Keith Fjelsted made Feb 7 at 2016 8:27 PM

2016-02-07T20:27:09-05:00

PFC would have been pushing to China if he did that n front of me. New Army or not. I never tolerated any sort of disrespect towards myself or any other of my fellow Drill Sgt's. If they're trained right from the start, this would never have happened. I'm from the Old School Army though. 85'-08'

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2016 9:26 PM

2016-02-07T21:26:21-05:00

Get the PFC for disrespecting a NCO. That PFC clearly does not care to be in the Army, and does not care about any actions taken to him due to his own actions. Ask the soldier if he wants to be in anymore if he says no speak with command and she about discharging him/her. My CSM yelled at me for standing up while talking to him... He said "Gray WTF are you doing; which is more comfortable sitting or standing?" I said "Sitting CSM." he said "You'd be correct now do it." Keep in mind unlike this PFC I've know and are on good terms with my CSM though.

Response by SMSgt William Hassiepen made Feb 7 at 2016 10:02 PM

2016-02-07T22:02:01-05:00

He would get every crap job that came down the pike. If there was KP, he'd get it, garbage can's he'd get it. every lousy job there was, he'd get.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2016 10:25 PM

2016-02-07T22:25:13-05:00

As a former NCO, now CPT, I've had to bite my tongue many times when I see standards not being enforced. This is not from some mistaken belief that officers shouldn't do on the spot corrections, but instead its because I dont want to undermine the junior NCOs that should have nipped the issues in the bud before someone else noticed. I remember when i was a SGT/SSG and if an officer had on the spot corrected my Soldiers for something I should have noticed and handled, it was embarrassing. In short if the standard isnt being enforced (hands in pockets (i.e. General military bearing Duffleblog notwithstanding), not standing at parade rest (Soldiers now think the at ease position is the same as parade rest...) when speaking to NCOs etc etc) by the junior leadership then the senior leadership will. This will happen either in public or in private and generally the consequences will be worse.

Response by LTC Joseph Gross made Feb 7 at 2016 10:27 PM

2016-02-07T22:27:06-05:00

Start by modeling proper behavior. He stands at parade rest for a SGT just like he does for a 1SG. You failed that PFC.

Response by SGT Javier Mendoza made Feb 7 at 2016 11:03 PM

2016-02-07T23:03:15-05:00

Here is my thought on this. When a soldier works close to the office of the company commander, or first sergeant he is not expected to stand up every single time they come in the office. Generally the personnel in the office were called to attention only the first time they entered the office or they they be standing every few minutes with little work done. Regarding the soldier not standing at PR, believe you are new to the rank, and therefore a little eager to see soldiers show you "respect".
In a maintenance facility personnel can see most of the company leadership several times per day, and are normally ran by a SFC with many NCO's in the platoon, so don't feel disrespected unless the soldier refuses to do his job, or makes a disrespectful statement, which I don't believe he did. He was a little silly but I do not think it was disrespectful.
Approaching the soldier in the manner in which you did, and insinuating you would smoke him, only puts him in the defensive.
Remember that true respect is earned by the way you lead and treat your soldiers, and getting in the habit of punishing or threatening to punish soldiers only make it seem as if you lack leadership ability, or intelligence to know how to handle the situation properly.
Don't get stuck on regulations and remember, no matter how much rank you have, it means nothing without the soldiers under your responsibility.

Response by SGT Robert Dubray made Feb 7 at 2016 11:07 PM

2016-02-07T23:07:03-05:00

I would of removed him from the room and taken him out side and smoked the shit out of him and began his remedial Pt sessions and disaplin training.

Response by SSG Angel Rod made Feb 7 at 2016 11:22 PM

2016-02-07T23:22:34-05:00

Many good points. But let's address the elephant in the room. By you allowing the soldier to sit while addressing you created a new standard for him to do the same with that 1SG. There is no I'm ok with it, there is only the standard set by the ARs. You created a double standard. Everything starts small an as the old saying goes. Rolls down hill. You should have made him stand for you as a leader, not let him slack off.

Response by SPC Rory J. Mattheisen made Feb 7 at 2016 11:31 PM

2016-02-07T23:31:21-05:00

The problem in the military is the lack of leadership, there are "creative" ways of "encouraging" a troop in every situation. Today's military is a result of zero esprit de corp.

Response by SFC Benjamin Varlese made Feb 8 at 2016 12:06 AM

2016-02-08T00:06:53-05:00

*Le Sigh*. I started Infantry OSUT 9/12/01 [Think about that for a second] so this is a subject of much aggravation to me. My DS's trained us to to be hard MFers because we would have to be. Now the military is coddled and I see it all too often with my new joes...even some of my NCOs. I lt them know that I hate paperwork and would rather do 'PT enhancement' with them than fill out a bunch of paperwork that I will eventually use to kick them out; most choose option A.
Another alternative that takes up little to none of my own time to discipline troops is written assignments, college style. 1000 word essays with in text parenthetical citations with a reference page about why they should or should not do 'X' behavior using historical military examples does wonders. For every spelling or grammatical error (since they need to be hand written) they have to rewrite that word or sentence 200-500 times. Trust me this works and falls under the purview of the 'punishment fitting the crime'...and it's 'paperwork'! Soldiers hate being smoked but hate losing their free time more so as a new NCO try this technique and I'm sure you will be pleased with the results.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Feb 8 at 2016 12:24 AM

2016-02-08T00:24:24-05:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member My first word was: Fxxx!

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2016 12:25 AM

2016-02-08T00:25:20-05:00

Aside from the discipline problem that everyone craves to talk about how bad it is, that is your leadership's problem and should be addressed since I assume he isn't the only one within the unit. The Guard/Reserve shouldn't have substandard standards like that, because we all deploy to the same places! That's why we have NCO's! If you're part of the Corps, then it's on you to uphold the traditions along with your peers! The "New Army" gives the junior enlisted a voice. We can tell people when something is wrong and have support instead of getting a punch to the face. I had an NCO tell me he would love to give me a "wall to wall counseling" over a joke, which once I understood he didn't get it, I got down, did my pushups and apologized for my behavior and he still said that. What did it prove? How was punching me in the face going to make a difference? He was an ineffective leader. If you can't engage your soldiers on different levels then you don't understand your soldiers. If you don't understand them, how do you motivate them? I don't think you're a crappy NCO, but I do think it's a good learning point on diverse corrective training. You have many options available to you, but what does it matter if you don't understand the soldier?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2016 3:57 AM

2016-02-08T03:57:14-05:00

I'm an E-4 so I only been on one side of "corrective action". If soldier is a having a customs and courtesies issue make them practice customs and courtesies. Just make the soldier stand at parade rest. If the soldier is unable to stand make the soldier do it face first in the dirt.

Response by SPC Jamie Davis made Feb 8 at 2016 5:34 AM

2016-02-08T05:34:59-05:00

Extra Duty all day every day until YOU get tired of it, and if he lives in the Barracks once a day inspections, until you're tired of it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2016 9:43 AM

2016-02-08T09:43:40-05:00

As a someone who was in both the "old Army" got out and then came back in 13 years later to the "New Army" i can say there is a difference between then and now it is in both the new soldiers and the new leadership. the new soldiers know the Regs better then we did in the "Old Army" due to the internet and good old Google. The change in leadership is that they don't know the Regs as well as they should and are afraid that if they do anything then they would be the one wrong. With that said not all leaders are like that we need to teach both leaders and soldier how to follow the regs and not get around them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2016 12:54 PM

2016-02-08T12:54:43-05:00

Thats the way of the new army ..i have tried the same thing only ro get told my a higher ranked nco that i shouldnt do i need to 'counsel'this soilder ....i hate to say it but the new army compared to the 80s army that i joined is pussyified

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2016 1:20 PM

2016-02-08T13:20:53-05:00

give him the paperwork he seems to desire.

Response by SGT Justin Morkavich made Feb 8 at 2016 5:52 PM

2016-02-08T17:52:54-05:00

Got out in 07 and damn I made the right call! I would be getting an article 15 and standing on the blue carpet for sure because that little shit would have been sinker twice as hard.

Response by SFC Bruce Martin made Feb 8 at 2016 6:23 PM

2016-02-08T18:23:42-05:00

The Army need to go back to grass drill and smoke sessions It did not hurt anyone including me as a young soldier. We have lost control of of the lower enlisted and it is sad no respect anymore.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2016 8:17 PM

2016-02-08T20:17:01-05:00

So let me get this right. You set the standard and allowed the PFC to remain seated while talking to you because you "don't mind", but then are shocked when he stayed seated when the 1SG spoke to him. Did I get that right? Well, the first thing I would do is start enforcing basic standards in your unit, beginning with you. If that sounds harsh I'm sorry, but you, and likely other NCOs in that unit, have lost your power base because you are willing to accept a lower level of military courtesy simply because you are a junior NCO. What should have happened was when you walked into the room and started speaking to the PFC he should have stood at parade rest. You could THEN tell him to sit down and finish your conversation. "Smoking" somebody can be a tool for those who are truly hard headed, but it shouldn't be the only tool you have. Soldiers understanding that you will uphold standards no matter what will make "smoking" somebody a very rare occurrence indeed.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2016 11:05 PM

2016-02-08T23:05:10-05:00

Here's the thing, WHY don't you mind that he was sitting while addressing you? Are you trying to be like that dad on Modern Family?

My response to a Soldier that responded the way he did would be a dumbfounded look of disbelief... then, if he wasn't already at parade rest, put into that position, an immediate search for a piece of paper and a witness and immediate counseling (with a transcript of what was said with a witness present) followed by taking him to his 1st line supervisor and having the Soldier explain what he said. At that point you would have a couple options, take the scratch piece of paper you wrote the counseling on, use it as an enclosure for a 4856 write the counseling, and recommend for article 15 under article 91(?) and 134.

You would also have had the option of explaining to him just exactly what you could do in this "New Army" (which really isn't) vs him simply agreeing to an invigorating PT session with you overseeing as a corrective measure instead of being recommended for article 15. I have never had a Soldier choose the Article 15 over me smoking them (then again I have only had to do this 3 times in 18 years)

Response by SPC Maurice Tillman made Feb 9 at 2016 1:27 AM

2016-02-09T01:27:39-05:00

The question is what type of sergeant are you? Did you stand while talking to the 1sg? Did you tell the troop to stand? If you didn't, how can you ask him to do so? We must also realize that today's troops are more "book smart" than ever. So, are more aware how the system is designed. This is why so many of them seem softer. The rules haven't changed much, just the soldier's interpretations are much more informed.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Feb 9 at 2016 6:32 AM

2016-02-09T06:32:43-05:00

Give him what he asked for. Give it to him until you got enough on him to run out. You will be doing yourself, your branch and the taxpayers an enormous favor.

Response by SSG Mark Newman made Feb 9 at 2016 7:19 AM

2016-02-09T07:19:47-05:00

25 yr. Retired. Plt. Sgt. Now first on the spot correction in front of the 1st. Sgt. Second would be a counseling statement. Then his Sqd. Leader would give home training on the weekend on ARs pertaining to common courtesy! Doing it this way gives leadership training to the Sqd. Leader and peer pressure training.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Feb 9 at 2016 8:50 AM

2016-02-09T08:50:13-05:00

Would be interested to hear from some of you an understanding of just what this 'new Army' is, or what conditions, rules, attitudes, etc come together to form the 'new Army'? Is it the tattoo policy, prolonged discussions over the color of athletic socks and PT belts, or are these just symptoms of larger underlying issues which most of us in the civilian side are no longer up on. It does seem from this article that young soldiers have more leeway to question, back-talk, and smart-mouth NCOs and still expect support from higher ups. Another example being the female soldier who posted religious-type signs, literature, etc at her work station and refused to take them down when asked to do so by her admin chief, an E6. It now appears as if the new system is backing her right to express her beliefs and siding with her. Would appreciate the insights of RR members of all ranks, but esp those living and dealing with the experience at the moment.

Response by MSgt Charles Johnson made Feb 9 at 2016 1:30 PM

2016-02-09T13:30:02-05:00

I was Army from 67-70. Two consecutive tours in SEA. Let me first say that the very idea a NON-trainee would have to stand for a Sgt of ANY kind is new to me. We did that in training, but afterwards, no way. Officers yes. The individual talked back or down to you? And you didn't address that immediately? Crazy. New rules I suppose. But, I would have ordered him up and counseled him and if I was not his immediate supervisor, I would have taken it to him afterwards.

Petty things like "Stand while talking" to me are not ways to get respect.

You get respect by actions. Show an example. Be the hardest ass in the bunch. Be the best soldier. Lead from the front. Do more exercises, longer runs, let them see your doing them. Do more "Army" training. Full Field Gear inspections, march them. Hand to Hand, etc. Make it constructive and towards getting a better Army Soldier, not just pushing dirt around.

As for this "exercise" thing you all are into now. WTH? We would never have to put an individual into "exercise" (unless in training). Get him alone. If chewing his ass doesn't work, then Grab that SOB by the shirt collar and get his attention. Put Nose to Nose and let him see your pissed. You don't need to hit him, just get his attention. Physically stand him against the wall and lift him up by the collar. Put the fear of god into him. Is that not allowed in the Army now? You can't put the fear of god into a troop?? Have another Sgt there to witness.

We did "Tree to Tree" counseling back in the day. If a troop gives you a line of crap, we waited until we were in the field and took him for some remedial. Have another sgt witness or two. Only if he is a complete dimwit would he not respond with corrective conduct. All the troops knew you would do that and the issue was rarely needed. Never bring it up again unless he fails to respond.

We had a favorite position we used. Grab his collar, on both sides, twist it into a roll and with both hands in the front of him, you have enough leverage to shake the little shit's eye teeth out. Give him a demonstration on "manhandling". Shake him around. If he raises his hand towards you, you tell him that raised hand will be interpreted as an attempt to "strike" you. And you will press charges. Order him to keep his hands and arms to his side at all times. Are you not allowed to manhandle? God help the Army if you cannot do even that. Hell, the USAF still does it. When you talk to that individual, stare directly "between" his eyes. Do not look him directly in the eye. By doing so, you appear to have a "iron" stare. Just look there and do not turn away. He will be looking into your eyes and will not be able to keep his gaze because you've such a hardass stare. Little things, tricks of the trade. You don't need to raise your voice. Talk low, menacing, and with apparent hidden reserve. Get his attention. Show him you mean it. Then once he comes around, ease up. Don't leave it as a "thing" between the two of you. Bring him around don't leave him down.

We had an unwritten rule, never never write up a troop unless your getting ready to CM or 15 him. Otherwise, his unblemished record is your best weapon. He knows a counseling in that record would be a death knell for any chances of promotion. He also knew that we would never do that. And he knew the quickest way to get that paper was to ignore the rule again. That threat was known by all and no one wanted to lose that next stripe.

Response by SGT Joshua A made Feb 9 at 2016 6:41 PM

2016-02-09T18:41:50-05:00

I see alot of wonderful ways to correct this soldier and agree with most of them for me I would say you have to know each individual soldier under you even in your platoon and try to get to know the the soldiers In the company as a whole so you can better understand the corrective action for each individual soldier. Because by the sounds of this pfc personally i would start the paper trail, but that would have been after I had lost my mind first. I would have just verbally counseled him for not standing at parade rest for me and explain that it's just not about customers and courtesy but discipline then told him not to let it happen again but when he sat there and addressed that 8 like their just best friend, I really don't have the word to explain. My 1SGT our not I would correct anybody even if they out rank me that disrespects anyone that out ranks me. The way I was brought up is even if you see SGM committing an infraction you go and correct him with the proper tact, and I didn't take kindly of disrespect especially towards a senior NCO. I guess being combat arms when we said jump you didn't even ask how high you just executed because it might save your life and there's no time to explain to you why you did what you were told when you were told and if you couldn't conform we just weeded you out. But their are regulations and it's always good to know them so even for yourself and you can't go wrong as long as you stay within regs, see I liked to study the regs with my guys and send them to the soldier of the month board for training purposes, preparation and generally a change of pace and some would win. I also thought outside the box my favorite thing for soldiers with issues was to push the envelope and send them every month until they won and you know if you win you have to go to the soldier of the quarter board and so on. The point is is you have to adapt as a NCO try new things as long as you stay within regs

Response by PV2 Christopher Graham made Feb 9 at 2016 7:35 PM

2016-02-09T19:35:18-05:00

Bust him down for disrespecting rank. Better yet, disband the United States Army. They're now an army of complete pussies who need stress cards, can't be forced to do PT, and are allowed to mouth off!If I had to do it all over again, but in this time, I would go to the Marine Corps

Response by CSM Mike Harmon made Feb 9 at 2016 7:41 PM

2016-02-09T19:41:30-05:00

SGT Young, we all talk about a "New Army", and how in the "Old Army" things were different. The only difference is the discipline and or lack of it we as leaders allow. As a former 1SG (3x) and a BN CSM I can tell you I did the same thing, when it was ME please stay seated and continue to work. But if someone other than me comes in, do the right thing and respect them and their rank and get off your ass. As for him having a profile and being a career PFC, there are a plethora of things to enlighten him as to the proper courtesies befitting a senior NCO. You stand your ground and continue to make on the spot corrections, do what is right and don't by into the "New Army" crap!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2016 8:00 PM

2016-02-09T20:00:36-05:00

How about you as a very young SGT read into what you say before you post it. If that young PFC stands for you as a junior NCO then stays seated when a senior NCO walks in, then you failed him! You shouldn't be asking that PFC to do anything but watch you drop for failing him and yourself as an NCO.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Feb 9 at 2016 8:21 PM

2016-02-09T20:21:32-05:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member What exactly is the new Army?

The Army is ever changing, morphing, growing and shrinking with the times. The only thing that is constant in the Army, is change. The Army changed many times in my 33 years. Most was/is for the best, but people also generally always resist change and often lament about how good things were "back in the day." They did that when I came in... and I did it too. We still do it. I try not to, but it is human nature.

In 1980, when I enlisted, the Army was still reeling from impacts of 25 year in Vietnam... That Army was actually broken by most accounts after Vietnam. I did not ever see that level of disfunction they spoke of then (broken) in my time since then. At MP OSUT we often complained about how the Drill Sergeants smoked us, cursed us and humiliated us, while the prior service dudes (Vietnam Vets) told us that we just lucky they could no longer hit us... But, after Vietnam, the professional NCOs and Officers fixed our Army, and we went into Desert Storm with arguably the best Army we have ever seen.

After 911 (as a Battalion Commander 02-05) we all feared that the Soldiers of that current era were weak, not tough like we were back in the day, and not up to task ahead. We were dead wrong. Those young Soldiers, Team Leaders, and Squad Leaders in my branch were more than up to the task at hand, and by 2010, most had spent over half their careers in combat. I was amazed at the MP Troopers I worked with around the world, many whom paid a price far greater than I.

After 911 we also redid most training in the Army, because it was not appropriate for the tasks at hand, and often quite out of date. Those were all good changes, and for good reasons.

To be successful in the Army, and not go crazy, you need to have a little faith that senior leaders in the Army are doing the right things for the right reasons.

The Army is huge, not perfect, and from the inside you can see all the flaws. But, in the end, things always seem to work out. The great Soldiers we have ensure that success, and have been doing since 14 June 1775.

I left the Army in 2013, and I believed/believe, as always, the Army is good hands.

Thank you for stepping up, so guys like me can fade away.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2016 10:09 PM

2016-02-09T22:09:07-05:00

Im in a relaxed unit as my first unit. I am of the generation that has a name for being lazy, disrespectful and just stupid. The majority of us are sadly. I try to fight that standard and my leaders help me out and i show the proper respect. I wish i was of a different generation but sadly i have peers like this making our name.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2016 11:03 PM

2016-02-09T23:03:42-05:00

In my plt we attack this problem from the side. My squad leader/plt sgt (my real one is acting 1st SGT alot) gives me a nod and then I explain to the private why acting that way is a bad thing. I ask him if he wants to go to high speed schools. If he wants to be called in for every stupid State Active duty. If he wants to be on every little BS detail. Then I explain that NCOs are like elephants, they never forget so how do they want to be remembered when NCOs are thinking about the questions stated above.
It's amazing how quick they turn around, after that, unless they are a lost cause then e-4 Mafia swings into action and the poor guy is running around finding PRC- E8s, chem light batteries and such.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2016 12:04 AM

2016-02-10T00:04:10-05:00

This is a good part of the reason i got out right at the ten year mark... Generation xbox is what i call em... Never played outside... Were never even allowed to lose at anything... Makes me physically ill

Response by SSgt Steve Lofquist made Feb 10 at 2016 1:59 AM

2016-02-10T01:59:38-05:00

Smoking the "JOE" is a violation of Article 93 of the UCMJ so just because you were screwed over dosent mean you have to pass that along to the new JOE's

Response by SSG Brian Lovins made Feb 10 at 2016 2:18 AM

2016-02-10T02:18:07-05:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member What action did you make when the 1SG entered the room? Did you call at ease, like you were supposed to? Did the ISG have the opportunity to say carry on which is typical.

As for the profile, if he said yes then you need to verify through his supervisor or PSG, contrary to popular belief a profile does NOT have to be carried on the Soldier at all times and IS protected information under HIPAA so the only thing you are allowed to know is yes he is on profile or no he is not and whatever is within the scope of limitations. If you want to verify google army medical regulations and start reading I can not remember the AR number anymore. I used to have it saved but after I medically retired I erased it from my laptop. I was just as shocked as you are after reading that, 16 years I thought Soldiers had to carry it or they really didn't have one, the 1SG is also supposed to have a list of those on current profiles.

He shouldnt have mouthed off, I would get creative, make him brief the platoon on custom and courtesies. Make him write an essay. That away they learn something other than how to do a push up, a push up stops them from doing the work they need to do and typically is just a game, making them research on their own time after they go home gets more of a response. I do not think "smoking" a soldier does any good, and if you screw up and one of those you decide to smoke gets hurt, even a pulled muscle, you may find yourself standing in front of the man. Especially since if your profile is correct you are in the guard, a guy gets hurt on the weekend especially by non scheduled training, it can start a whole chain of events you do not want to be the cause of.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2016 7:53 AM

2016-02-10T07:53:39-05:00

I remember in the 90s when I was the "new Army".
This new Army hasn't really effected me much, besides the occasional old man moments, if you provide proper leadership and instill dicipline, they will be fine.

Response by Drew Young made Feb 10 at 2016 8:48 AM

2016-02-10T08:48:15-05:00

I'm going to be honest here if someone deserves to get smoked then it needs to happen its a lack of discipline just like a lot of the teenagers today never got their ass whooped as a child nobody taught them respect and unfortunately without respect everything is eventually going to fail I don't know anything about this so called new army but it sounds like a load of crap our leaders should drill respect into these new recruits you don't have to respect the man but you do have to respect the rank

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2016 10:53 AM

2016-02-10T10:53:29-05:00

24 on 48 off until he comes and asks me to smoke him..............

Response by SGT Erik Spaulding made Feb 10 at 2016 12:26 PM

2016-02-10T12:26:51-05:00

I n

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2016 1:32 PM

2016-02-10T13:32:57-05:00

Well I guess he would need a new profile for having your boot removed from his ass. As a DS, I hear about this all the time. We can still smoke them till the walls sweat as long as we do it by regulation. But what happens beyond the tree line stays in the tree line if you catch my drift. SSG

Response by PFC Justin Doyle made Feb 10 at 2016 2:37 PM

2016-02-10T14:37:41-05:00

Counseling statement , and assigned task to remedy his behavior, failure to comply results in a second counseling statement that includes the top. If that doesn't work issue and article 15 under UCMJ , disrespect of is non commissioned officer and failed to follow a direct order. Possibly a disrespect of a senior nco , and dire left of duty come to mind first. But it sounds like he needs to be chartered out for failure to advance in rank.

Response by Tucker Fables made Feb 10 at 2016 4:13 PM

2016-02-10T16:13:58-05:00

Only the leadership is to blame for this type of behabior. GG NCO corps

Response by SPC Jason Scott made Feb 10 at 2016 5:00 PM

2016-02-10T17:00:26-05:00

I would never make it today. This is weak. 20 years ago you would have had your butt handed to you in your hands for disrespecting a 1sgt. Paper work. Pft. It was called "wall to wall counseling", and you didn't have to fill anything out for it.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2016 7:08 PM

2016-02-10T19:08:16-05:00

How about we keep it simple soldier. YOU find the regulation he was violating and YOU counsel the soldier on it. If he is not yours take it to his chain. We can talk old Army new Army smoke session and stress cards all day and we still have not addressed the problem.

FYI I joined the Army in 1987 took a short break and went to the Guard. I saw a stress card once at a naval water training facility. Only time I smoked soldiers was as an instructor at spec ops school. My Army has never accepted sexual assault. Hazing, my airborne and aviation wings both came with blood, but I never heard a sole complain, we received them with pride and no one was ever hurt.

As a 1SG i went to a new unit. E-5 needed a little verbal correction. He had a bad reputation as bully in the unit. He asked to speak with me in private and asked if we could settle this man to man. I explained that there was no man to man only 1Sg to SGT and told him to meet me in my office with his platoon sergeant. I laid out the regs and counseled them both. The SGT received a few for his various violations. He became one of the best NCOs in the company. No one had ever laid the regs out and counseled him on his actions. Late and he knew I was not being personal just business.

I do not have to coddle or smoke soldiers all i have to do is stick with the regs.

My pet peeve is chewing gum. There is no reg so I do not take it out on soldiers, if I get the chance I will explain to them how some people find it rude to chew gum while conversing, but that i sit.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2016 7:22 PM

2016-02-10T19:22:34-05:00

Having done a tour as AIT PSG I saw the same behavior over and over. The best way to correct their behavior? Take their time! As others have said, write him up in a formal counseling. Make it a point in the counseling to explain that by regulation the weekend is an implied pass. Your corrective training can take place during the weekend so as to not impact his assigned daily duties. Assign him something creative, like briefing the weekend duty shifts at specific times during the weekend. But you have to be there to supervise the corrective action. It sucks that you have to be there to supervise It. But it cements in his mind that you mean business and he needs to respect any NCO.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made Feb 10 at 2016 10:43 PM

2016-02-10T22:43:50-05:00

Correct me if i'm wrong, never heard of "smoking is not allowed anymore", if you see any nco know better to parade rest, sitting down while talking to an nco is a disrespectful to the nco, the soldier need to be discipline.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2016 1:17 AM

2016-02-11T01:17:12-05:00

Every generation talks about how much harder the army was "back in the day". Something I avoid as I become more senior. Scuff the private, stand like a man if put on the spot about why. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Response by Sgt David Barrow made Feb 11 at 2016 9:55 AM

2016-02-11T09:55:09-05:00

Lets out behind the sats tent and let me explain it to you

Response by SP5 Wayne Robeson made Feb 11 at 2016 1:41 PM

2016-02-11T13:41:42-05:00

If that's the worse thing to happen this month, consider it a great month. Move on and focus on things more important. The army is full of loser PFC's, was in my day and long before I served.

Response by SFC James Monigold made Feb 11 at 2016 3:31 PM

2016-02-11T15:31:54-05:00

The Army has changed and Soldiers think they have certain rights but, they don't read or understand their contract. Some of the top leadership have become soft. Until then this will continue, and people will get hurt or may even die. Lowering the standard is what is happening..

Response by SGT Jimmy Ray made Feb 11 at 2016 5:47 PM

2016-02-11T17:47:49-05:00

Just my two cents worth, put it on a 4856. Once he gets enough, put him in for a company grade article15. When you take away a soldiers time and money, they typically shape up or end up getting a field grade.

Response by SPC Tina French made Feb 11 at 2016 6:07 PM

2016-02-11T18:07:45-05:00

I would have then said OK since everything is done by paperwork you need to write a 5 page essay about the showing respect to those of higher rank than he is.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2016 7:44 PM

2016-02-11T19:44:25-05:00

Adhering to updated standards is critical to your job. Without following the regulations you can find yourself out of a job or worse, a criminal record.

Response by MSG David Mathis made Feb 11 at 2016 8:55 PM

2016-02-11T20:55:35-05:00

Do what he asked. Write him up for insubordination and make him a PVT

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2016 8:58 PM

2016-02-11T20:58:58-05:00

Smoke the pussbag!!

Response by SFC Dale Crewe MAED/AET made Feb 11 at 2016 10:27 PM

2016-02-11T22:27:26-05:00

Smoke is ass like a cheap cigar...

Response by SGT Jeremy Baker made Feb 11 at 2016 10:35 PM

2016-02-11T22:35:30-05:00

I have been retired now for a couple years but my soldiers still call me about similar situations they run into from time to time so I did some research, I found that you cannot do an exercise continuously over a certain amount of repetitions so I called my soldier back and told him you know FROMT BACK GOES don't have a repetition he laughed said I understand and hung up. I've also learned over time of precious discipline of soldiers who.... Didn't deserve a paper trail (when they actually did something) however if they are on profile they must have it on them and if they don't they are fair game and if they are that a towel on a hanger only weights about 4lbs and when held with two fingers and extended parallel to the deck for a particular length of time it starts to really make the soldier think good luck ;)

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2016 2:03 AM

2016-02-12T02:03:09-05:00

Well judging by the responses this post has generated, it seems to be a hot topic. I may only be a spec 4 but in this day and age our e-4's usually end up doing som TL time before they make 5. That being said that was one of the hardest things ive ever had to do. Absolutely no respect from anyone above or below because "he's just a spc". But it taught me a few things. First, the standard starts and ends with you as a leader. The sm whether you are relaxed or not should atleast make the attempt and let you tell him to relax. Second, when he didnt get on his feet for 1sgt you should have jumped down his throat immediately. Nothing shuts a sm up faster than being verbally lit up in front of the top, simply because noone wants top to join in. And last when he made the new army comment you did the right thing. Counsel, if he wants paperwork bury him in it.

Response by SSG Seth Foster made Feb 12 at 2016 8:59 AM

2016-02-12T08:59:43-05:00

This story reads like a bunch of crap.

Response by SFC Jim Mitchell made Feb 12 at 2016 9:28 AM

2016-02-12T09:28:08-05:00

In a firefight, this would be a soldier who would probably tell you to go f*@k yourself after you gave him a critical mission. Of course, being a good NCO, you probably would have known not to call on this Zero for anything so critical. Hopefully you were wise enough beforehand to have placed him on a "sort of" permanent point man position. The problem would either, take care of itself, or the kid would grow up "real fast" and become an awesome soldier. Unfortunately, a good deal of the millennials coming into the service today have no sense of duty or allegiance to anything greater than themselves. Sad.

Response by SGT Mathew Husen made Feb 12 at 2016 11:27 AM

2016-02-12T11:27:05-05:00

I'd have to get the wall-to-wall counciling on this on lol

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2016 1:05 PM

2016-02-12T13:05:40-05:00

On the spot correction and let his NCO know. If you dig in right away and "over react" you set the standard for other soldiers when you are around. "On Your feet and get to parade rest when addressing the 1SG." Especially these days we can not let it go with a few push-ups cause kids don't react to that any more. And 1SG will see you upholding standards in his company, sets you above your peers. ATW

Response by SPC Gareth Mannion made Feb 12 at 2016 1:24 PM

2016-02-12T13:24:58-05:00

This is probably why the suicide rate is so high. If you can't handle the pressure, you break.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2016 1:28 PM

2016-02-12T13:28:14-05:00

So, I find that this is often a topic of discussion from Soldiers who feel that they are "old school" or somehow not part of this new Army. I have been in the Army for a little over 15 years, I have seen many changes. Some that I agree with and some that I do not. However, my position on them has never changed, I enforce these changes as if they were my own. I am the Army, you are the Army, everyone in the Army right now is the New Army. It is as simple as that. The reason we are successful is because we are able to adapt and overcome the challenges thrown at us throughout the years.

I have heard the same arguments from generations before me about mine and I am sure the same of the generation before them. It comes down to enforcement of standards and expectation management. As an NCO it is our job to enforce standards and to provide consistent leadership to their subordinates. In the case that you have presented there is a lack of both of these. A subordinate should not expect to sit when talking to an NCO (unless job performance requires it). That Soldier should stand at parade rest for you regardless and only moved to a more relaxed state upon your granting it. This same Soldier should also be standing at parade rest for any other NCO that they are talking to. The problem is you have created an environment that is portraying the First Sergeant as being more important than you. My point here is that an NCO is an NCO. While the First Sergeant is senior in grade, the same respect should be demanded. By not requiring the Soldier to stand at parade rest for you, but expecting them to for another NCO is inconsistent and may create confusion.

I do not want you to think I am trying to attack your ability or you as a person. The point of my reply is that people are people and standards haven't changed. Your subordinates will do the right thing if you set the conditions for it. There is always a few exceptions, but they are just that and not the general rule. In the case you presented I would have counselled the Soldier for disrespect, not because of their actions regarding the First Sergeant. A few pushups may be in line with getting the Soldier's attention, but a smoke session would be irrelevant, this just creates spite in the Soldier for their leader/s. The ideal corrective action is (in my opinion) counselling and corrective training. Examples could include Drill and Ceremony and Customs and Courtesies. The unfortunate truth about being a leader is that in order for you to conduct good corrective action it requires your own time and planning as well, this is how it becomes effective.

Response by SSG Tony Robinson made Feb 12 at 2016 3:16 PM

2016-02-12T15:16:23-05:00

Hmmph, you didn't 'mind' him sitting and talking to you...That's your shortcoming. When the 1SG walked in you should have called 'At Ease', from the position of Attention, snapped to 'Parade Rest' and rendered the greeting of the day. If that little slug didn't get up, wrote him up after smoking him. If I was that 1SG, there would have been 2 soldiers in that office with their feet on the desk. New Army, my ass. Do your job, Sargeant.

Response by SGT Jeffrey Walsh made Feb 12 at 2016 4:51 PM

2016-02-12T16:51:59-05:00

On the spot correction. Maybe a little wall to wall counseling after duty hours.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2016 4:58 PM

2016-02-12T16:58:18-05:00

The first response was right on.. none really should follow.. - SGT

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2016 5:12 PM

2016-02-12T17:12:37-05:00

My First Line would destroy me if I pulled this. I do not want to say " it only happens because he's in the National Guard," it happens in active duty as well. Personally, Pain is preferred over paperwork. Paperwork lasts a lot longer then pain.

Response by SSG Matthew Sanders made Feb 12 at 2016 6:03 PM

2016-02-12T18:03:09-05:00

Well, speaking from experience, the fact that you referred to yourself as a new sergeant tells me that you would not know how to handle the situation. Had you referred to yourself as a non commissioned officer, it would have been easily handled

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2016 6:15 PM

2016-02-12T18:15:27-05:00

I used to believe that "smoking"
Was the better alternative. I'd rather my SL make me do some push ups and flutter kicks tha start a paper trail that could all too easily become a Chapter for Pattern. I believe--and still do having Seen Countless examples--that the Only Bad Soldiers are ones with Bad Leadership. But....
Then I became WTU leadership. I couldn't "smoke" my soldiers. They were All on P3 profile. I had a soldier with such bad PTSD (no fake no joke) he tried to stab his 1SG in the back of the head and could Not sit in a room without his back to the wall able to see everyone. I learned--and real quick--that leading isn't about corrective physical punishment. Leadership isn't ( had this happen to me) telling a soldier to, "Get out of my office, now!" before said soldier has even opened their mouth. It's about...
Actually giving a damn about the people Under you
It's treating them like adults--with respect
It's about talking TO them--not AT them
9 out of 10 of my soldiers have added me to the FB after they left WTU. When I ran the IDES rotation last year, soldiers I only knew 14 days gave me a Thank You card and attempted to add money (I didn't accept). People are people. Soldiers, like everyone else want ONE thing. To be treated like they Matter. If they're just a dirt bag who won't conform to Rules and Regs, it's in Your best interest to start paper and be done with them--Chapter. If they're Not, all the want is what we all want--respect. More, they will respond 10 fold in kind.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2016 6:50 PM

2016-02-12T18:50:54-05:00

Politically correct to the point of idiocy

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2016 6:56 PM

2016-02-12T18:56:10-05:00

Assist him with his PT test preparation. Call it a morale building activity to give him a sense of accomplishment when he is that much closer to a 300 on his PT test. Disrespectful and absolutely ridiculous.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2016 7:32 PM

2016-02-12T19:32:08-05:00

The level of physical discipline in 'the New Army' means little to me until we start losing a war over it. Look at a Russian or South Korean or North Korean Army. Discipline and all the right body movements all day. Stand at attention on guard duty all day. Not going to win them a war.

What this Army needs more than ever is talent. No one chases off good talent like the Army. We can aggravate the crap out of smart kids who can get a job elsewhere and retain all the kids who can just take it on the chin.

Response by CPL Vince Higgins made Feb 12 at 2016 7:33 PM

2016-02-12T19:33:59-05:00

ARTICAL 15 HIS ASS IF HE REFUSES TO SIGN ITS COURT MARSHALL TIME .. SO SGT GO TO THE MOS LIBRARY AND START READING THE UCMJ .

Response by MAJ Clyde Howell made Feb 12 at 2016 7:42 PM

2016-02-12T19:42:50-05:00

Article 15, take his money, take his rank, take his time and freedom, rinse, repeat as necessary until he either shapes up or leaves.

Response by SGT Justin Kerns made Feb 12 at 2016 9:12 PM

2016-02-12T21:12:42-05:00

When I was a young Infantry NCO, I would have physically destroyed that disrespectful little bastard and made it my mission to build a paper trail to kick him out of the Army ASAP. Apparently that is no longer an option, so I guess you just have to tollerated it, right?

WRONG!!! I don't care if it's the "new" Army or not. You are a goddamned NCO, so frigging act like it. Improvise, adapt, and overcome. We used to have to do it even when you could smoke someone half to death because some soldiers could care less about getting smoked. Let's face it.... It does no good to smoke a quitter.

All soldiers value something that you can take away from them. Time, money, rank, dignity, etc etc etc. If positive reinforcement doesn't motivate this young soldier, then you should have the experience to show him that paperwork is not in his best option. Make him write a long essay about military customs and courtesies and have him pass it out to all of the soldiers in the platoon. Issue this corrective action on a well-written counseling form informing him that further disrespect of superiors or failing to obey this lawful order will be grounds for further disciplinary action including punishment under Article 15 of the UCMJ. When he screws up again (and he will) keep the process moving along. If you play your cards right, he will be packing his bags on an OTH discharge and have to come see me at the unemployment office where I will inform him of his options of fry cook or dish washer as a career choice.

Don't make excuses, take action.

Response by SPC Ralph Robertson made Feb 12 at 2016 9:38 PM

2016-02-12T21:38:46-05:00

Well im sure there was a shit ton of paperwork i would have come up with that little shit would have to process before his shift ended and you were forced to relieve him of duty.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2016 9:57 PM

2016-02-12T21:57:42-05:00

Counsel the soldier and article 15 for violating article 91 of the ucmj. He wants paperwork then give it to him. If he wants more paperwork then initiate separation under chapter 11 of the ucmj. Otherwise fuck the paperwork and physically destroy him within the limits of his profile because corrective action is still very much authorized and he refuses that's just more ammo for that paperwork he wants so damn bad.

Response by Cpl Will Parmenter made Feb 12 at 2016 10:18 PM

2016-02-12T22:18:48-05:00

Wouldn't happen in the Corps, screw this non hacker

Response by SFC Glen Coberly made Feb 12 at 2016 10:24 PM

2016-02-12T22:24:51-05:00

Here's the deal, and it's really pretty simple. If you want to correct your Soldier, and develop that individual, corrective training needs to address that which is to be corrected. You, as a leader, need to figure out the best way to engage the errant Soldier, and replace incorrect assumptions with correct knowledge. For example, if your young private doesn't have a good grasp on proper respect, you might consider conducting a study session with that individual. Use hard copy regs, and start at 1700, right after release formation.

Response by Sgt Kim Sr. made Feb 12 at 2016 11:43 PM

2016-02-12T23:43:10-05:00

As a US Marine SGT, during my time on active duty, we would have handled it a different way. First, he would not be sitting down while speaking to a superior, second, the 1Sgt would have had both your butt and the Pfc but for what was transporting. You are a leader, you do not ask a Pfc you tell him.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Feb 13 at 2016 10:27 AM

2016-02-13T10:27:57-05:00

I have been following this topic for days and really wonder what has happened to leadership. During my 21 years in the Navy, I NEVER wrote up a single person (that is the placing one on report and recommending disciplinary action), but I was very creative in disciplining a/an individual/s. I also never heard a negative word back as to how I had created a block for an individual's opportunity for advancement.
Now after retiring from a post-military career, I can say that I fired one person in 20 years in the private industry and that was considering that I have hired and led hundreds of people of a variety of disciplines. Again that does not mean that I did not use a disciplinary technique that met HR standards. Many, were bad fits for the job and I encouraged them to find other departments or companies that better fit their needs, driven by counselling and performance reports. The anecdote heard on here are similar to what one has to adapt to in the civilian world, showing your rank in the civilian world gets you looking for replacements for some good people. IMO, it is much more difficult leading a civilian department than in the military. It sounds like the NEW military is adapting to what has been happening in the civilian world, for better or worse.

Response by SFC Pat King made Feb 13 at 2016 10:39 AM

2016-02-13T10:39:56-05:00

I came in in 1975.. What do you think I would say?? Lol.. That PFC would have been chewed up and spit out. I was a DI, too!!

Response by PO2 Sherman Smith made Feb 13 at 2016 11:10 AM

2016-02-13T11:10:26-05:00

That behaviour that is rewarded, will repeat! You can catch more flies with honey. All that being said, Christ gave a very good example of human nature when he told of the wicked NCO who was able to receive a pardon for his lack of leadership skill, and directly visited the punishment on his subordinate for the action for which he had just been forgiven. My Son is serving on the USS Santa Fe. In a recent e-mail he implied that the Navy must have changed since I was in. He was going through an adjustment period, and true some things have changed E-mail vs Family Grams, Tacking Dolphins, Smoking, Beards, Don't ask don't tell and now Women on Subs. But I explained that the superficial things will change usually for the cosmetic effect of appearing to make improvements. But the enemy is Human nature and that will never change. Good leaders can only do this by staying in long enough to make a difference. Lead, Fallow or Get out of the way. Bad leaders are with us like it or not. Good leaders are in short supply. So here is my advice to any E-5 on the cusp of transitioning to an administrative role and feeling the pain of starting over and passing the baton of being the expert to the new E-5 who now is in the same position in which you suddenly find yourself. You probably told your self many times; when I am in charge, things will be different! I am never going to do that! But alas we are human. Start by reading the thoughts of great leaders over the years. There is no such thing as the New Army! I would point you to the account Homer writes in Book Ten of the Iliad. Any one who has been on a night OP in theatre, will love this story. I can't tell you that you can be a good or will be a good leader. If it were easy every one would be a leader. I don't think any one knows how to lead. Because plans and situations change. At best we are just making it up as we go. But when you find your self without friend and at the top, this will be a come to Jesus moment. Who happens to be the author of One good rule to keep in mind. In fact it is Golden, Be the leader that you would want if you could choose one.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2016 12:23 PM

2016-02-13T12:23:14-05:00

Hello leaders, first I would like to address that there's no such thing as a "New Army". I've been in 8yrs now never have I been smoked or had to smoke a subordinate. What ppl fail to realize if you give your soldier's the proper guidance. And being active in coaching, mentoring, and motivating then you would set yourself and your soldiers up for success. And then after working with them and they still don't want to comply that's where the paperwork comes to play. It's a very powerful tool better than any smoke session!

Response by CPL Justin Abdoo made Feb 13 at 2016 12:42 PM

2016-02-13T12:42:02-05:00

I was in 2007-2010, active duty stationed at ft Hood Texas.. In my unit, if someone back talks like that to a sgt, you're gonna get fucked up! And I mean bad, can anyone say article 15, loss of rank, extra duty, getting screamed at and put in your place in front of your whole unit, and not to mention the smoke sessions.. When I was in, no one was childish enough to act like that... And I say screw it, discipline that little shit, let him know you can't do that, and don't let him forget it, throat punch him if you have too. But I seriously can't believe that in only 6 years the army has turned into a girl scout day camp for pussies... I was in and served with valor, but I wasn't a pussy and I didn't serve with the mindset of pms'ing 9year old girl. The army is turning into something embarrassing, and it pisses me off that our leaders are allowing the army to get to this point...

Response by SGT Ronald Hearn made Feb 13 at 2016 4:05 PM

2016-02-13T16:05:52-05:00

EXTRA DUTY FOR A INSUBORDINATE SOLDIER IS AUTHORIZED and should be used if a soldier is not correctly acting out or not acting in correct form, and is not keeping with standards set before he was peeing in his diaper !!!

Response by SGT Jeff Bortel made Feb 13 at 2016 5:34 PM

2016-02-13T17:34:17-05:00

Article 15

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2016 6:07 PM

2016-02-13T18:07:43-05:00

Repeat those ten exercises in a cycle over about an hour.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2016 6:36 PM

2016-02-13T18:36:12-05:00

I think that a PFC having the audacity to proclaim about the "new Army" and telling a Sergeant that "smoking" is not authorized is just another example of this new entitlement generation in which we cater to the weak. Number one, if you can't handle a little extra PT as a form of discipline then you need to seek life elsewhere. As for publically embarrassing the PFC? So what!!! That's what I love about the military is no one needs to care about your feelings, especially when you're in the wrong. And again, if you are so emotionally fragile and weak that a Sergeant smoking you ruins your life...then you need to get out. Bottom line, I have zero patience anymore for the physical, mental and emotional weaklings that fill our ranks these days. We're supposed to be a culture of warriors who have an enormous level of resiliency. We shouldn't need to waste time with two hour periods of instruction on how not to basically be a panzey. And if this new generation of Soldiers are so upset that NCOs are hard on them when they're stupid, then they'll be appalled when the enemy shoots them in the face. This isn't the damn civilian sector. It's the military. You do what's right without question. And if you are stupid then you take your punishment like a grown ass man, not some little whiny girl arguing back about the new Army. Ridiculous.

Response by Cpl Jeff Ruffing made Feb 13 at 2016 6:40 PM

2016-02-13T18:40:16-05:00

It's easy, every time I was a smart ass, skylined myself, I just got the crappiest details. Leaf patrol, police call, mopping and cleaning, digging up a barrel, ( the last smart ass buried it)

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2016 6:54 PM

2016-02-13T18:54:26-05:00

First, if you are an E5 then your photo should reflect it. The glory days of the E4 mafia are behind you. Be proud of your selection as everyone isn't equipped for the rank. Now, the PFC was wrong on a few levels. But reading your post, I never once read that you went to parade rest for the "new" 1SG (I'm assuming the 1SG is new to your unit). I always show my soldiers how to properly address senior NCO's and officers alike. This way they can't say they didn't know. Then comes the regulation FM 7-21.13 in which Ch. 4 addresses customs and courtesies. However, YOU should have corrected that soldier while the 1SG was there. He has no choice in the matter, he is bound by regulation. Also the 4856 would be great to use. I would include in there that every time an individual that out ranks him so much as pasees in front of him he is to immediately go to parade rest until they pass or tells him otherwise. This will teach him to always show proper customs and courtesies and also instill muscle memory and he'll do it automatically. Cherry pickers won't help this situation, FM 7-22 clearly states that physical exercise may be used, however the said corrective action must be in line with the infraction or you become liable and subject to an IG complaint for hazing a soldier. Being an NCO is more than having a smoke fest. Although some of their button need a good old fashioned smoking. And sometimes it's warranted, but not in this instance. Maybe the 1SG didn't say anything because he was waiting to see what you were going to do about it..... "No one is more professional than I. I am a non-commissioned officer, a leader of soldiers." That said, lead the way SGT; lead the way.

Response by SGT(P) Jeremy Anderson made Feb 13 at 2016 8:24 PM

2016-02-13T20:24:37-05:00

I got out because as an NCO I had no more power. I couldn't get points across and all the soldiers disrespect you no matter what.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2016 8:40 PM

2016-02-13T20:40:58-05:00

4856, no paper no problem.

Response by Sgt Steve Belli made Feb 13 at 2016 11:13 PM

2016-02-13T23:13:59-05:00

And they wonder why we are now viewed as weak!! In my day that private, or as was my branch, that junior airman would've gotten his ass put in its place. Wtf

Response by SSG Harold Cooper made Feb 13 at 2016 11:31 PM

2016-02-13T23:31:29-05:00

If he is not carring his profile on him he is wrong there for he does not have a profile..Or 4856 him..

Response by SPC Bobbie Betz made Feb 14 at 2016 12:05 AM

2016-02-14T00:05:22-05:00

He would have been been on latrine duty for at least a week. Insubordination is insubordination. At the end of the week he would needs to give a 50 word definition of the word "insubordination". A 150 word essay on the command structure of his unit. Finally these two are to be given orally to the offended party at the end of the week. As well as a formally written apology. This makes for a fine punishment and reinforces command authority all around.

Response by TSgt Patrick Finn made Feb 14 at 2016 12:32 AM

2016-02-14T00:32:59-05:00

I would write him up on the point of disrespect toward a Sgt. (I'm prior Air Force. I may not be too familiar with Army ranks, but I do know this...you don't disrespect a Sgt in any military branch...period!!). Write him up, then send the paperwork to his rating official. Yes, he may be a punk, or a brat, but he IS in the military. He STILL needs to respect the uniform he's wearing and his superiors wearing the same uniform (regardless of branch....let me make that clear). If he isn't going to adjust to military life....let him readjust back to civilian life. Kick him out so you can spend your time grooming and maintaining people who want to be in the service, instead of wasting your time with those people who don't.

Response by SGT Ebun Muhammad made Feb 14 at 2016 12:56 AM

2016-02-14T00:56:33-05:00

What the hell are you people talking about, you look at his profile and see what he can do and what he can't then you take the ass outside and commence to properly stuff him the way of the old army, ass sandwich.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2016 2:33 AM

2016-02-14T02:33:02-05:00

Give him the best PT session you can, with him; doing everything he's doing. Maximum of 10 times; Then recover, then do it again; and again ; and again.

Together so there's no problem

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2016 4:00 AM

2016-02-14T04:00:55-05:00

Attitude reflects leadership. ...all u thought about the entire was the physical punishment u can inflict on the SM..... Sgt pls learn to communicate with ur soldiers and not talk to ur soldiers....Build them through career mentorship. ....How do u counsel ur soldiers?...You failed my battle buddy...that's all

Response by SPC Nicholas Motto made Feb 14 at 2016 8:17 AM

2016-02-14T08:17:07-05:00

Seen it plenty of times, but most of the NCO'S I know did not put up with the mouthing off. If you are in the right and not breaking any regulations, I forsee many cherry pickers in this PFC's future. They need to remember, you are the NCO, and your in that position for a reason. Just because mommy coddled him, doesn't mean the ARMY should.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2016 10:51 AM

2016-02-14T10:51:54-05:00

It's simply a reflection of the declining American society. No respect, no morals, people thinking they should be given things, people thinking they are above seniority, etc...it's been happening for decades and continues to get worse. Nobody takes responsibility for their actions anymore. They just blame their situation on someone else. It's the whole "I have rights, and we are all equal, but I want and deserve special treatment." attitude.

Response by MAJ Teresa Ferris made Feb 14 at 2016 11:05 AM

2016-02-14T11:05:00-05:00

I would haven smoked him anyway. Look at his profile and see what kind of exercise he can do and make him do it. Also, require him to teach a class at the next SGTs time on proper Army customs and curtacies. Are you this Soldiers Suoervisor? It you aren't talk to his boss to report this conduct and coordinate the Soldier teaching the class. That is what I would do.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2016 11:40 AM

2016-02-14T11:40:53-05:00

first I would have an aneurism followed by murder charges

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2016 11:42 AM

2016-02-14T11:42:56-05:00

If he likes paperwork, I would have assigned him so much paperwork he would have worked late for weeks. He would be PMCSing and doing work orders for weeks

Response by Sgt Paul McCombs made Feb 14 at 2016 12:56 PM

2016-02-14T12:56:12-05:00

Several suggestion comes to mind. When the Pfc did not stand for you and you did nothing. Then when the 1Sgt. Do the paperwork either he will quit, or make little rocks from big rocks. Nothing has changed, if you want to command, then command. Good luck.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2016 1:40 PM

2016-02-14T13:40:36-05:00

I'd smoke him off of profile bud these new guys r very disrespectful n don't get it

Response by SFC David Broderick made Feb 14 at 2016 3:43 PM

2016-02-14T15:43:54-05:00

The fact that we're squabbling over how to properly address this Soldier is sad in & of itself. I've had some serious butt chewings, a smoke session or two, and also corrective action through paperwork. Through it all, I knew I had screwed up, deserved to be punished, and took my licks like the man I claimed to be. While we NCOs are charged with maintaining discipline & good order in our Armed Forces, it really is down to the individual & how they were raised, and how they view authority.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2016 4:48 PM

2016-02-14T16:48:59-05:00

Hate to say it but it's happening in the Marine Corps too. Good buddy of mine was charged with hazing over a smoke session by some little bitch ass lance corporal. He requested a courts martial when they handed him the NJP and they dropped the charges.

Response by CPL Nate Banks made Feb 14 at 2016 5:11 PM

2016-02-14T17:11:44-05:00

Agree

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2016 5:31 PM

2016-02-14T17:31:39-05:00

Very slack but old school in every chance I get to launch into them when they shows discourteous and being flat I set them on fire

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2016 5:34 PM

2016-02-14T17:34:02-05:00

I blame the end of cycle surveys that they conducted back in the late nineties because soldiers felt that the training discipline was too harsh

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2016 8:49 PM

2016-02-14T20:49:01-05:00

When I was on active duty I was in the infantry and like one of the comments said my drills trained us to be hard. When I got my first team leader position I tried to be hard and my unit leaders backed me up. Till one day in 2011 I was doing corrective training on one of my joes who had forgot some of his equipment at home. Keep in mind we were on a different installation then our home station so he couldn't run home to get it. A 1SG from a different company proceeded to try and "smoke" me and I refused because 1 he wasn't in my chain of command and 2 my chain had approved of my method. Long story short I was explained the AR on corrective training and I ended up taking away some of his freedoms as a punishment. As if he forgot them at home. Freedoms like use of his cell phone and going out for a smoke when he felt like it and even though I hated it I busted out a counseling when I told him not to go for a smoke. Ive thought about making them write reports on the importance of remembering equipment and being prepared. And before anyone says well you should have check his stuff before you left home station. I did check it. But they pulled the wool over on me and had grabbed the stuff he was missing from some battles when I checked then gave it back to them so they wouldn't get in trouble. Sneaky sneaky.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2016 9:32 PM

2016-02-14T21:32:10-05:00

I definitely give you points for your patience. I personally wouldve snapped. I suppose that's just how I was raised in the Army. Regardless, if you are not an NCO, stand your little ass up and get to parade rest. I remember the days when the walls would sweat.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2016 7:26 AM

2016-02-15T07:26:01-05:00

You should address this with his supervisors and never, ever, never even think that it's a good idea to try and "Smoke" a Soldier that is not even in your team. You're way outside your lane and way too aggressive.

Absolutely great that you're motivated. You're exactly the type of young leader we need. Just need to focus that energy in the right lane. Even if you "showed that troop" if his own section does not enforce discipline it's a lost cause. Focus on your team and do the very best you can to take care of them.

I've been smoked, I've been yelled at, and I've been belittled. None of that ever worked in any way. That stuff is punishment and NCO's don' t have the authority to punish. That is commander's business. Talk to them, treat them like and adult, and you'll be amazed at how much better that actually works.

Response by SPC Sara Harris made Feb 15 at 2016 8:07 AM

2016-02-15T08:07:24-05:00

Never would I or expect anyone to act like that. Yeah he will be a PFC for a long time or be discharged very soon.

Response by CPL Brandon Edwards made Feb 15 at 2016 8:16 AM

2016-02-15T08:16:27-05:00

Smoke his ass anyhow

Response by 1SG George Endicott made Feb 15 at 2016 11:12 AM

2016-02-15T11:12:10-05:00

I have seen this "discussion" pop up several times in my feed and have passed on making a comment, but have decided to chime in with a few points that I have not noticed as having been addressed that I feel are ALSO important (The primary point, I believe that is at issue is that you as an NCO failed to enforce a standard as you saw it which led you down an unnecessary road dealing with this PFC...much of which has been addressed already). Point #1: Know the standard. In many administrative offices, there is a standing order from the senior officer that calls for the announcement of "Attention" when the senior officer arrived and leaves for the day and "At-Ease" when the senior NCO arrives and leaves for the day. This allows for the administrative staff to conduct business uninterrupted throughout the business day without physically standing and sitting all day long. Was there such a policy? If so, then the PFC was not incorrect in not going to the position of Parade Rest when speaking to you or to the 1SG. Regardless, you as an NCO should know the standard and a simple discussion with the PFC's supervisor would have sorted that out. Point #2: I understand from your post that you felt that the PFC was acting appropriately from an attitudinal perspective until you tried to "correct" the PFC about coming to the position of Parade Rest when the 1SG entered. You then (based on your story) intended to enforce some sort of corrective action on this PFC under your "General Military Authority" over him; the same authority that allows you to make on the spot corrections for minor violations of regulation and policy. If this PFC is in the SAMs office, where was his supervisor? Why would you not just immediately address this issue with them as the offense of "disrespect" is typically beyond the scope of General Military Authority as it would require more than an on the spot correction (i.e. Corrective training)? These are two incredibly important points for you to consider about yourself as a leader for improvement that would have avoided the rest of this problem. Part of the problem of "the new Army" (it has always been a problem of "the new Army"...the Army is ALWAYS "new") is the fundamental truth that Soldiers are a reflection of leaders. When there are discipline issues, leaders are often at least as much "at fault" as Soldiers; usually in a less issue-specific manner, but in a more general leadership culture manner. Which leads me to Point #3: If you want to become a better leader in order to have the respect of Soldiers: be an example to Soldiers and use every possible opportunity to make as many of these "events" as "teachable moments" for the Soldiers and yourself instead of an excuse to exert your "authority " over them. I will gurantee that you will become a far more effective NCO and leader if you use this approach and seek personal and professional improvement from these situations instead of projecting some nebulous "New Army" enemy as the culprit for you not being able "smoke" Soldiers for infractions of policy and regulation...particularly since I will bet my next retirement check that you are human and can make errors. How will your Soldiers look at you after you "smoke" a Soldier for something you believe that they did "wrong" when they were, in fact, in complete compliance with local policy/regulation? You, Sergeant, are my "new Army Shenanigans."

Response by SGT Craig Shepard made Feb 15 at 2016 12:07 PM

2016-02-15T12:07:03-05:00

Makes me sick, Kids don't show the same respect to others that have been their and are only trying to pass it on. But we live in a corrupt society where they get there orders on video game. I'm a vet that thought not as bad as this. I thought school was boring because the instructors where reading out of manuals because it was so new technology at the time. well next thing I know is I'm in Vietnam at the time of the Tet Offensive saying ho lee shit! more good news hit me on my first day in country, My boss was ETS ing in 45 days and it was all mine. so now who's reading out of the manuals that I didn't understand because I was so stupid. then it hits me! If I don't do my job right ever time people are going to die because of me. But know one die on my watch because I fixed me! So you can fix stupid. I came home a 100% disabled Vet. that our government dose not care about. And a chest full of metals that mean nothing to kids today. We where willing to die for their freedom and get no respect or honor to our forefathers. and sad and make me sick.

Response by SGT Ryan Major made Feb 15 at 2016 2:29 PM

2016-02-15T14:29:22-05:00

Smoke the piss out of him.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2016 5:12 PM

2016-02-15T17:12:42-05:00

As a former marine who is literally weeks into my enlistment in the national, I honestly have no idea what to expect from the army. Is this the kind normal stuff that happens?

Response by COL Ricky Emerson made Feb 15 at 2016 5:20 PM

2016-02-15T17:20:18-05:00

Verify his profile and discipline him proportional to the offense and what his profile will allow you to do.

Response by LT John Ritenour made Feb 15 at 2016 11:15 PM

2016-02-15T23:15:41-05:00

The military is a not a democracy or labatory for social experimentation. It is a dictatorship, albeit an enlightened one, where follows the orders one is given. Rank is important- meaning if an individual in pay grade E-2 gives an individual in pay grade E-1 an order, it is to be obeyed.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2016 11:38 PM

2016-02-15T23:38:25-05:00

If I was in your situation I would probably bitch slap him in his face. I consider myself as fair and laid back NCO but there are limits. I've done it before to one of my NCO and he realized what he had done. I have no regret and I would do it again if necessary.

Response by SSG John Mitchell made Feb 16 at 2016 12:08 AM

2016-02-16T00:08:57-05:00

I've been out since '08 but getting smoked was already on the way out. The "Entitled" Kids were coming in hot a heavy and ran to IG or Mommy who went to their Congressmen if things didn't go their way. I couldn't stand it. Especially on the Support Side. I got smoked more than once. I also got written up a few times. Guess which one stuck with me the longest? I don't know what they were teaching in Basic but Discipline, Respect for the Rank and Military Customs and Courtesies didn't seem to be on the List. I saw it up close and Personal when I re-classed '04. I was one of 5 that had to sit in Classes with a bunch of AIT Students. They went crying to their Drill SGT saying that we were being to hard on them because we were enforcing the Standards of Customs and Courtesies. 2 SSGs, 2 SGTs and 1 SPC all with at least 8 years Active Duty. Our 1SG had a little chat with us and me being me, I quickly called him on it. Not in a disrespectful way. I just pointed out that we expected a certain amount of Respect that we earned. They acted as if they were back on the block. Their Senior Drill SGT was at his wits end because his hands were tied by the system. I watched a Gunny smoke, and do mean SMOKE, a CPL because he disrespect us. His thinking was we were Army and he was Marines so he didn't have to extend the same courtesies to us as NCOs. There was a saying "Do what your collar can afford". Bottom line is YOU set the standards. If you are lax then those around you will be lax as well.

Response by CSM Joe Callahan made Feb 16 at 2016 8:47 AM

2016-02-16T08:47:39-05:00

What a bunch of passive crap. Apply your thought process to Ranger School or serving in a Ranger or Special Forces unit where you follow that order immediately or people die. The United States Army is founded on "Good Order and Discipline " not feeling like you have the authority to question that NCO'S directive. The enemy could care less about your "proper approach". In order to Close With and Destroy" which is by the why the United States Army exists. And is what is expected of you. Follow orders!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2016 11:03 AM

2016-02-16T11:03:02-05:00

It's stripped leadership of their authority. I would honor said PFCs request by ensuring he is written up for article 138 if I remember correctly disrespect a NCO, and article 92

Response by Cpl Art Porto made Feb 16 at 2016 11:47 AM

2016-02-16T11:47:30-05:00

This is the problem with the Army. If it was the Marine Corps there would have been a group of Marines trying to hold the Sgt. back from killing the PFC!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2016 1:11 PM

2016-02-16T13:11:28-05:00

Give him some paperwork - a 20 page type written research paper on drill and ceremony, origin and application of military courtesy to superiors, and the consequences of neglecting the above through UCMJ. If he doesn't get it in within a reasonable amount of time, give him more paperwork: Article 15. If we can't make them stronger, we can try to make them smarter.

Response by SGT Eliyahu Rooff made Feb 16 at 2016 2:15 PM

2016-02-16T14:15:43-05:00

I had to chuckle a bit at the debates over the "new" Army vs the "old" Army of ten or fifteen years ago. When I joined the ancient (?) Army in 1966, we'd listen to the old NCOs bemoaning the degradation in the discipline of the Army from when they joined the prehistoric Army shortly after WW2. To them, everything was going to hell in a handbasket since they couldn't take an errant private out behind the barracks and whup the daylights out of him, ala Beetle Bailey. My own opinion is that discipline, like morale, is a function of effective leadership from the top down. Generally, people will be no more disciplined than they're expected to be. There are, of course, exceptions, but if you put a soldier in an outfit with slack discipline and weak leadership, he'll eventually fit right in with the rest of the troops. I've seen it happen both ways with changes of command. A good commanding officer can turn a slack unit into a really strac one, and a poor CO can take a great unit and run it into the ground.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2016 1:56 PM

2016-02-18T13:56:54-05:00

The problem starts with you, SGT. That soldier is also required to stand at parade rest when he speaks to you. If you let it go, the he will become comfortable. Often times it can be said that the "line must be drawn somewhere!" It was and has been in the regulations for years. I am in aviaiton and lord knows we as a community are not the standard bearer of this practice. It is understood though, that until an NCO tells you to relax or to knock it off, treat him or her with proper customs and courtesys. If you enforced the standard there wouldnt be a conversation.
For the record, this can only be handled easily. You can smoke the soldier, all you want during PRT. Force that soldier to continue to read to find reasons why you can't do what you are doing. One day he will thank you for his ability to research without question and question those above him with tact. In the "old days" these processes were learned the"F up Move up" idea. The best thing I ever did for myself was mess up and was forced to find a way to fix myself. Regulations have two purposes, protecting the highers views of tradition and discipline, but they also allow the removal of the grey areas in which statements like this can be made. You discipline the force, the force will be your discipline!

Response by SSG Ronald Colwell made Feb 18 at 2016 9:21 PM

2016-02-18T21:21:17-05:00

There is no "new ARMY", it really hasn't changed they just rename things. What changes is the generations that join

Response by SGT Thomas Bentley made Nov 12 at 2017 11:27 AM

2017-11-12T11:27:38-05:00

I actually have a unique prospective. Basic training July 1983 Ft. Bliss, Tx. 2yrs Reserves, entered active duty 1985 ETS 1989. Returning to active service Basic training May 2000 ETS 2007 What a difference in training. Things that would have gotten you tag team smoked in basic got you yelled at, maybe. I never got smoked on active duty in the 80s after basic. After all the 11 series realized that there was better jobs that dumb shit happened during my tenure in the 2000s. And so many soldiers were not wanting to be a team and leadership only used punishment as a "bonding" tool. They stopped punishing the soldier of fucking up instead made it a team effort. Is why couldn't finish 20.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Nov 12 at 2017 11:28 AM

2017-11-12T11:28:30-05:00

Lots of extra conditioning for his whole platoon, or however it's most effective. When they get sick of this Pvt they'll smoke him for you, peer pressure can be a bitch. You don't even have to thank the Pvt in front of the guys they'll figure that out. I bet he's a guy who's always last, always bitching, falls out of runs, I'd make his dumb ass as miserable as I could, you reward competence and punish the lazy. I wouldn't want him with me in Afghanastan.

Response by COL William Oseles made Nov 12 at 2017 11:59 AM

2017-11-12T11:59:10-05:00

Sounds like he should give up the rocker and maybe the stripe as well.

Response by SFC Ron Gragg made Nov 12 at 2017 12:46 PM

2017-11-12T12:46:12-05:00

https://youtu.be/Psl7ZVwiRl4

Did you order the code red?.yeah

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2017 12:47 PM

2017-11-12T12:47:55-05:00

I would have to agree that the first step would have been having him display courtesy to you. That is what I have seen fade away...it is simple and should be consistent throughout the Army, but yet it is something we have the most trouble with. We, as NCOs, should lead by example and ensure soldiers are doing the same. It is our responsibility as the backbone of the Army.

Response by SFC Ron Gragg made Nov 12 at 2017 12:48 PM

2017-11-12T12:48:43-05:00

All I can say is, if this is the case, I', glad I retired over 17 years ago!
Having said that, I feel a great amount of sorrow and empathy for today's Army, AND NCO's

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2017 1:10 PM

2017-11-12T13:10:46-05:00

Shit you should have flown across the desk and beat the disrespect out of him.

Response by SSG Joseph VanDyck made Nov 12 at 2017 1:23 PM

2017-11-12T13:23:20-05:00

Front back go, pick the berries, drop the berries, pet the kitty, flutter kicks and push ups all with in his profile. If said sm didn't have this "paperwork" with them, this is a violation of the profile also. I can play this game all day, why, because it's not the USAF.

Response by PFC Elijah Rose made Nov 12 at 2017 2:24 PM

2017-11-12T14:24:05-05:00

I fail to see how any offense was committed. Formalities do nothing for nobody and even if it did why would it be ok to lapse on it sometimes but an atrocity at other times?

Response by SPC David S. made Nov 12 at 2017 2:54 PM

2017-11-12T14:54:51-05:00

The PFC's behavior is learned behavior - require him to stand at parade rest and address you as Sargent.

Response by SPC Jill Drushal, RN, MA made Nov 12 at 2017 2:55 PM

2017-11-12T14:55:39-05:00

As a disabled veteran with 11 years of service who has been married to a retired SFC for 26 years, my opinion is based on both my experience and his. This is not about "old" Army vs. "new" Army. It's about the fact that such situations need to be handled in the moment, on a case-by-case basis. Your story sounds a bit like a comedy of errors. Everything has a time and a place. Your interaction happened in an office setting in garrison. This is where there is time to reprimand the PFC as you see fit. On the battlefield, the luxury of time doesn't exist. If a soldier is given an order to "get your a** over there," that soldier follows the order without question because he may die if he hesitates. . . So, the simple answer here is that the 1SG should have immediately reprimanded both the PFC and you. The 1SG walked into a situation where the PFC wasn't standing at "Parade Rest" while talking to you. He doesn't know what transpired before he arrived. All he knows is that he walked into a room and no one called, "At Ease." The 1SG should have locked up both the PFC and you. Even though he is a new 1SG, he has been an NCO long enough to know the military customs & courtesies for an NCO entering a room. While you were at "Parade Rest," the 1SG should have explained the reason that soldiers stand at "Parade Rest" for an NCO entering an AO and at "Attention" for an officer. It's about more than respect. The NCO or officer may have vital information to relay. He needs to know he has everyone's attention. Only after he says, "As you were" should anyone take a relaxed stance or sit down. After the interaction with the PFC was done, the 1SG should have discussed the situation with you privately. That should have been the end of it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2017 2:58 PM

2017-11-12T14:58:45-05:00

I do and don’t agree with the MSG on the front page of responses here. As leaders, yes we have to maintain the highest levels of professionalism. It’s in our creed and how we should always conduct ourselves.

However, I too have delt with this situation when I was newly promoted to Sergeant back in 2014. I simply gave them the choice: I can give you the counseling (which I was very in depth, thorough, and impartial) and start leading a path for possibly ruining their career, along with taking their time and pay), or they could take the small smoke session and we’d brush it off and call it good. Now, this dosen’t mean that when something deffinitely warranted a counseling I didn’t do it. I absolutely did. I facilitated or helped facilitate 8+ article 15’s and chapters in my first year of being a sergeant. Some Soldiers, the thought of losing money and rank will highly deter them from wanting the counseling. It’s a double negative. So 99% of the time they’d take the smoking. Sometimes it doesn’t work with certain types of soldiers, which is where counseling is more effective. At that point, you need to monitor their conduct, and if it doesn’t improve, get em out. Why waste time on someone who doesn’t want to be there

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made Nov 12 at 2017 4:01 PM

2017-11-12T16:01:40-05:00

I do believe that this is what the SMA was referring to when he said that the Army is lacking in discipline. I would like to think that "The good ol days of discipline will come back". We can only hope.

Response by MSG John Joseph made Nov 12 at 2017 7:32 PM

2017-11-12T19:32:41-05:00

Today's Army is such a joke and disgrace. I'm seriously envious of the Marine Corp in their way of thinking. I traveled down to EBOLC in Missouri to visit my wife and was shocked seeing how today's soldiers in basic training lack discipline. Gone are the days of motivating a private to develop a sense of urgency. Forward thinking, critical decision making and killer instincts are replaced by endless classroom discussions. This differentiated us from foreign powers and we're losing this battle to a cooperate Army. Like allot of former soldiers, I'm embarrassed how the culture changed from selfless service to an Army of opinion. I totally feel sorry for the Drill Instructors on assignment and you couldn't pay me enough to re enlist in the modern Army.

Response by SP5 Hank Vandenburgh PhD made Nov 12 at 2017 7:49 PM

2017-11-12T19:49:38-05:00

1962 - 1968. We would have giggled our asses off at the idea of standing at parade rest for an NCO. Many of us were Specialists, E5 or E6 with equal pay, and often equal responsibilities.

Response by PVT Raymond Lopez made Nov 12 at 2017 9:53 PM

2017-11-12T21:53:49-05:00

Which particular new Army are talking about?

Response by 1SG Bill Stankiewicz made Nov 12 at 2017 10:12 PM

2017-11-12T22:12:45-05:00

In my Army I would have locked the TO&E room door and kicked the shit out of him

Response by Capt Gregory Rush made Nov 12 at 2017 10:17 PM

2017-11-12T22:17:09-05:00

well, wall to wall counseling session comes to mind, as does taking him on a PT run he'll never return from, but I guess the new Army would frown upon that too. :)

But seriously, in the USMC it got where we were restricted on IPT (Incentive Physical Training) and basically you couldn't make someone do something alone, you had to justify it as part of a PT session. Fortunately for me I had a Sgt that was PT stud, and he delighted in these lunch time counseling sessions. Some PFC got stupid next think I heard from across my warehouse was "got get your PT gear on FREAK, we're going for a run". Nothing like seeing the offender puking his guts out a half our later.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2017 10:59 PM

2017-11-13T22:59:07-05:00

Sorry bud, catch this bar...or summarized for disrespecting a senior nco. Want to play the paper game bitch? Okay let's do it because you can Google and I have legal on speed dial

Response by PVT Raymond Lopez made Feb 5 at 2018 1:35 PM

2018-02-05T13:35:58-05:00

Which particular mew Army? I am seventy-one years old and I am not sure which one you are talking about?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 10:41 PM

2018-02-05T22:41:51-05:00

You also have to think of the fact that new soldiers who have been given the opportunity to develop “friendships” with senior enlisted (E6-E7), they have a sense of being “untouchable” and feel as if a hedge of protection is over them. I’ve experienced this similar situation multiple times and in my experience, I’ve learned that you can’t expect; as a leader; for two different people to get your message if delivered the same way. Some people don’t learn through corrective training and others learn by paper trails.

However, I do agree with most of the senior enlisted and officers on this post with the responses given and have learned just by peering through these responses more effective ways to deal with soldiers. There is no “new army” it mainly falls on leadership and their inability to enforce the rules and regulations.

Response by SPC Clark Cleghorn made Mar 13 at 2018 9:55 PM

2018-03-13T21:55:06-04:00

This is a two sided coin, IMHO. I got out of the Active Army at the start of 1985, because I was tired of the needless BS. There is a time for traditional military rank and file stuff, and then there are times that shit needs to go down the crapper, and get the work done!! I worked in Supply as well as the Arms room, and had a lot of work to do, so I didn't have time for idiots just looking to make trouble for me, because they didn't have anything else better to do!!! I'd get bitched at for not getting some things done, but I would have, had I not been getting pulled away for silly waste of time games. I could write a book 4 inches thick about all that went down, but suffice it to say, when they asked me to re-up, I was not very nice to them.

Response by SPC Terence Menifee made Mar 14 at 2018 8:17 AM

2018-03-14T08:17:28-04:00

I would have told the pfc that unless you have paperwork to prove that you're on profile, we'd have a serious problem. Even if they are, I'd get very creative.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2018 12:11 PM

2018-03-14T12:11:53-04:00

Sgt, I am a new private in the Army and I see people disrespect the rank and chain of command all the time, and it boggles my mind on how they get away with it. I'm sorry you had to see that disrespect especially to a 1SG

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2018 11:07 PM

2018-03-14T23:07:39-04:00

I can see why there is no chance of promotion anytime soon. Sounds like there is a PFC out there asking to provide a class on military courtesy and “New Army” culture during SGTs time- for the next four weeks.

Response by CPL Paul Freeman made Mar 16 at 2018 11:16 AM

2018-03-16T11:16:34-04:00

KP duty or latrine duty

Response by PO1 David Jordon made Mar 16 at 2018 11:37 AM

2018-03-16T11:37:57-04:00

very similar action happened to me 22 years ago.
i was the airframes shop leading P.O. and supervisor. i was sitting at my desk doing paperwork that had fallen behind due to ,1) also being an aircrewman on our helicopter, and a heavy flight schedule, and 2) with that very heavy flight schedule, came a very heavy maintenance schedule. which put the majority of my shop to night shift because it was the only time we could get to the birds and do inspections and heavy maintenance.so myself and two other non-coms had the day shift. since most of the work during flight ops was simple stuff, check a leak here, replace a broken fastener there.service the reservoirs. minor things, so i knew my guys could handle it.
i was doing the paperwork when one of my non-coms came in a sat down. he asked me if he could take lunch , so i told him to wait a second, and put in a call to maintenance control to see if there were any incoming aircraft. i was told there wasn't but there was a bird in the hanger that required one last servicing to be done to be released for a PMCF ( performance maintenance check flight) and be mission ready. all that needed to be done was to go to each folded rotor blade and grease the sector gears (the gears on the rotor blade mount that meshed and allowed the blade to fold. i told my non com sitting there to grab a handful of rags and a tin of grease and go grease those gears, then he could go to lunch. he got up in a huff went over to the locker slammed it open grabbed what he needed, and stormed out of the shop. mumbling something under his breath. oh well, a bitchin' sailor is a happy sailor.
about 30 minutes later, i got another call from maintenance control, and a chief screaming into the phone" did you not here me, that bird needs to be on the flight line NOW!!! get those gears greased. i told the chief i had sent someone 30 minutes ago to do i. it should be done.he said "stand by", and a minute later came back and said the move crew never saw anybody on the bird, but that there was a can of grease and rags on the sponson.i jumped up and went out into the hanger, found the bird, went up and greased the gears myself. and released it tot he move crew for spotting on line. i went into the maintenance control office and apologized for holding up the bird and i did the job myself , since there was nobody in the office but me and him. he looked at me and said 'Dave, you have a little goof off in your shop. he is a goldbrick, a malingerer, and a lazy piece of S___. go find that idiot and make him a believer." i told him i already had a full head of steam and i would handle the problem.
i secured the rags and tin of grease and did my best impersonation of a freight train all over the hanger looking for the piece of crap that just made our shop look bad. i finally came to the gedunk, (you sailors know what i am talking about. for the Air Force, it's a snack bar") and there he was. playing a game on the pinball machine that someone had donated to the squadron( and i hope they came by it honestly) i went over to the machine and pulled the plug out of the wall socket, and it went dark. i looked at him and said "your game is over, and so is your lunch break. " and this little punk had the audacity to tell me i owed hm a quarter for messing up his game. well, the crow on my shoulder started flapping his wings. i told the little no load to get back over to the shop RIGHT NOW!!!!" little non com poop looked at me and asked if i wanted to take this outside, the entire room full of people fell silent. i looked at him and said"get out that door no load!!" we walked outside and he got up in m face and said "what's your problem , man? why you on my back.i been bustin' my a$$ since i got here this morning and all you can do is get on my case."when he finished, i looked at him forehead to forehead and said'you were told to do a job, you neglected that order, which is what it was no load, not a suggestion, not a request. and as long as you have a slick sleeve and i have the crow and three chevrons to go with it, when i tell you to do something , you will do it. no questions, unless you are not clear on what i meant, and that will be asked respectfully. so get your butt in that shop , go check out a bucket and a swab, your wonderful afternoon here at the oasis de helicopter, will be to go into every bird on that hanger. pull up the cargo rollers, and swab the entire deck inside that bird. and when you get done with those birds in the hanger, we will send you out to the flight line where the line shack will give you the appropriate gear so you can scrub all the spots clean. now MOVE, no load."
i was just about to leave when a yoeman chief from our admin stopped me. this over weight biscuit eating chief looked at me and said " you know , i saw what you did to that airman, and i could write you up for violating his civil rights." i looked at him and said "with all due respect, chief, the day i have to stop getting to these no loads and motivating them , myself, and are forced to write them up, send them to NJP and possible court martial, then i have failed as a leader. and i will rip these crows off myself and hand them to the Skipper.as for his 'civil rights" he signed away his "civil rights " the same way you and i did when we took the oath. he doesn't have constitutional rights, anymore, he is under the UCMJ. which says he will obey all lawful orders i give him. so, if you think i am treating hi unfairly, then i will send him to you and you can deal with him.but as long as he works in my shop, under my supervision, he WILL carry himself like a sailor, not like a hood rat.and if the chief has any problem with that, he is more than welcome to come with me over to my division office and speak with mt division chief, and officer. and see what they have to say about the matter.so if you want to do that chief, let's go, if not and you are through lecturing me on how to be a good leader, i have work to do."
i guess that chief never called my division office, or visited my division. but what did come out of it was a non com who turned himself around and became a good sailor. and even thanked me for being steady when other P.O.'s wanted to be everybody;s buddy. he was grateful for my steering him in the right direction.he told me this in a letter he sent not too long after i got out. he also sent me pictures of the skipper promoting him to P.O.1ST CLASS.
that was twenty two years ago. so this problem is not new. but it has been growing. we use to have a little thing called "gear locker duty". where a P.O. would escort a young troublemaker to and assign him a 'special duty ' which was supposedly, to paint the inside bulkheads, the P.O. would escort the young man intothat gear locker, shut the door, and a magical transformation would occur. a smart mouthed troublemaker would got in, and a squared away sailor would come out. with a few bumps and bruises form "tripping up and falling into bulkheads and decks" (the poor guy must be doing drugs, he kept falling down) and a lot of smart mouth punks (including myself) wet through that marvelous transformation. and i thank a burly red bearded chief who took me through mine. God rest his soul.he made a lot of good sailors out of dumb kids. with a special motivation . i know it worked for me. but these days, he, as well as i, would be thrown in the brig and out of the Navy if we did anything like that , today.because we might hurt some wittle saiwors itty bitty feewins. and send them to therapy for a year or two.

Response by PO2 Mark Gleason made Mar 16 at 2018 12:58 PM

2018-03-16T12:58:36-04:00

In my day smoking was not the thing to do. You could always assign the person to extra work. Such as cleaning up the head, field day the shop, fod walk down. Any dirty job you can find is assignable. Keep this up day after day and they will get the message.

Response by SFC Lee Paquet made Mar 16 at 2018 1:36 PM

2018-03-16T13:36:52-04:00

Time to see the Commander.

Response by SPC John Rives made Mar 16 at 2018 3:32 PM

2018-03-16T15:32:37-04:00

Make that bastard combat ready by any means necessary or start processing him out for not being able to conform

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2018 11:56 AM

2018-11-12T11:56:59-05:00

If you automatically have to resort to “smoke” a Soldier, you have already failed as a leader.

I suggest the dry, blank, live approach.

Response by SP5 Hank Vandenburgh PhD made Apr 28 at 2019 1:26 PM

2019-04-28T13:26:53-04:00

These “stand at parade rest” guys look pathetically militaristic to me, anyway. In my day, EM didn’t stand for each other. Respect- yes.

Response by LTC Russ Smith made Apr 28 at 2019 2:06 PM

2019-04-28T14:06:52-04:00

It's my understanding that enlisted personnel stand for officers. Since when do they stand for enlisted personnel? Granted, They shouldn't talk to the 1st sergeant like here she is there drinking buddy but really?

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Apr 28 at 2019 2:27 PM

2019-04-28T14:27:54-04:00

Lol, why’s he in the Army to begin with, I certainly wouldn’t want a punk as my buddy. I’d try and make his life as miserable as possible within the rules your stuck with. I’d volunteer him for every shit duty as humanly possible, I’d embarrass him by making him police the area by himself so his buddies could make some rude comments. Humiliation might be better than smoking his ass.

Response by PO1 Edward Pate made Apr 28 at 2019 3:13 PM

2019-04-28T15:13:40-04:00

Well in the old time Navy I was in(if the 80's are old time) we used to have what what called Fan Room counseling on board ship. Also EMI or Extra Military Instruction which would be things like polishing all the brass or up to and including PT sessions. Sadly that sounds like it is no more.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2019 3:17 PM

2019-04-28T15:17:09-04:00

I was a line medic, SGT for five years, assistant PSG, slash Infantryman. I had to work on patients day-in, day-out. When I came back from the line (front line) in eastern Afghanistan, I had to re-invent myself. You can’t accept smoking to do any good. You take away their time. The POS was admin. He thinks he’s smarter than all of you. Voluntell him to a different position. He’ll change his attitude. Also, affect was the right terminology. Affect means it happened to you. Effect means you did it to someone else. It is a different Army, we gotta deal with it.