How important is the "10-minute" prior to formation?

2015-07-04T03:20:16-04:00

If the leader has information to put out prior to the formation, then shouldn't the leader just make this the exact formation time versus saying "I expect Soldiers to be present 10 minutes prior to help you from being late and in case I have information to put out". I hear a lot about treating Soldiers like adults, but I think we should just tell them exact time we want them there and if they fail to meet that time, then hold them accountable. I personally will never counsel or berate a Soldier for not being there 10 minutes prior, but if they're late, then it's on.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Jul 4 at 2015 3:30 AM

2015-07-04T03:30:16-04:00

It comes down to standards and discipline.

If the leadership (say at the Platoon or squad level) tells you to be there 10 minutes prior to the 0630 formation, do the math and be there at 0620. The training schedule is the legal document signed by the commander and many subordinate level leaders ask their Soldiers to be there 10 minutes prior to do an accountability and an inspection - sounds reasonable to me. 0630 is when the 1SG is saying fall-in, receive the report, report......we recently had a Soldier miss a formation, the 1SG directed the PLT leadership to go and find the Soldier (before the formation), he was in his room in a pool of blood. He had slipped and hit his head on his sink, and was bleeding - the unit had already checked his room and knew he was awake...they are a very disciplined unit and took care of that Soldier by checking on him and knowing there was something wrong because he was not there at 0620. The training schedule indicates what you are doing at 0630, for us it does not say you put out notes at 0630, it indicates PRT or Dismounted Patrol etc...

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Jul 4 at 2015 3:32 AM

2015-07-04T03:32:42-04:00

If muster is 1700 then you should not be expected to be there till 1700!! Although i will agree you should be, but not for "pre muster" info.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jul 4 at 2015 4:18 AM

2015-07-04T04:18:34-04:00

It's a balance.

Don't waste people's time vs "getting your ducks in a row."

If the "real" formation is at 0700, and the subordinate leader says 10 prior so he can get his headcount, rather than saying "1stSgt, I don't know where my folks are. I need a minute," that is completely reasonable.

However when you end up with the domino effect of 10 minutes prior to the 10 minutes prior, etc.. that is bad.

For a BN commander who says 0700, and then Company says 10 prior, and then Platoon says 10, then squad 10 prior... that's 30 mins. That time should be used "appropriately" and not just have folks milling around. Pass other types of word, etc.

Now, whatever the time you told them is the time they are supposed to be there. So if you say formation is 0700. That means 0700. It doesn't mean 0650. If you say formation is at 0700, but I want you there 10 prior, that means 0650. Orders should not be ambiguous, lest you will end up with undesired results.

Response by SSG Melvin Nulph made Jul 4 at 2015 7:17 AM

2015-07-04T07:17:46-04:00

I really do not see what the problem would be. "I know things change over time", but there àre some things that will never change as far as I know, (Soldiers are soldiers 24/7/365 & when they are told to do or be, it's their job to do or be). 10 minutes is as important as you're told. If you show up any time after that it could cost you rank, time & money, they was all three important to me & I planed accordingly. Was I wrong for thinking that way? It always worked trust me!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 4 at 2015 8:03 AM

2015-07-04T08:03:02-04:00

Anytime we have a BN formation this happens. 10 minutes prior to the 10 minutes prior and etc. often times Soldiers getting there 30-45 minutes early. Which is ridiculous. Being a squad leader and having 7 soldiers and 2 team leaders under me I treat them like adults. My teams leaders always report to either through text message or in person that everyone from our squad is there. I can't say every Soldier but my soldiers always let their team leader if they know they are going to be late. I have a very tight knit group and because I treat them like adults, they act like adults.

Response by LTC John Shaw made Jul 4 at 2015 8:17 AM

2015-07-04T08:17:35-04:00

I trust subordinates to manage their time, however the pre-meeting is a typical indicator of a prepared leader.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 4 at 2015 9:24 AM

2015-07-04T09:24:09-04:00

There's actually a mathematical reason for the 10-minute rule. The probability of having a formation that is dress-right-dress is [average odds of an individual Soldier being squared away and on time] raised to the power of [number of Soldiers in formation.]

So let's say we have a 120-strong company formation. And let's say the average odds of each Soldier to make it to formation on time, in the right place, with the right uniform, is 0.99. He only messes up one formation out of 100. That's pretty good right?

The overall probability of the formation to be perfect, is 0.99^120, which is just a shade under 30%. Isn't that crazy? 70% of the time the formation will be jacked up in some way shape or form. This is why you almost always see "THE ONE". This is also why the 10-minute rule is compounded for larger formations -- to counteract a larger exponent, you have to raise the base percentage. 0.99 just isn't good enough.

So the next time you're out there at 0530 waiting for a 0600 "Fall In", don't blame your leaders, or the Army, or "THE ONE" (too much, a little is okay). Blame probability.

Response by SPC Thomas Baldwin made Jul 4 at 2015 9:28 AM

2015-07-04T09:28:56-04:00

I'ts just that extra touch of communication that can mean a whole lot in the future. TIME TO ADJUST!!!

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Jul 4 at 2015 9:40 AM

2015-07-04T09:40:08-04:00

MSG Private RallyPoint Member great post. It makes all the difference when you transition out the military and get a civilian job. If you don't show up on time your in jeopardy and could get fired. It helps me to maintain my discipline and keep that PAY CHECK coming. 10 minutes prior is the standard in my life in everything I do. Its one of the many habits I will forevermore keep.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jul 4 at 2015 11:02 AM

2015-07-04T11:02:19-04:00

MSG Private RallyPoint Member, the way I always looked at it was like this: As long as everyone was formed up before I got there (and I usually got there before my Chief and Division Officer) I didn't give a rat's ass if they formed up at 0759 or 0745 (or whatever the hell time quarters was, lol).

Response by SSgt Scott Schwerman made Jul 4 at 2015 12:32 PM

2015-07-04T12:32:04-04:00

If service members have a known issue of being late, then the xx min prior should be used. If there are no issues, then they should be treated like grown men and women.

Response by SSgt Charles Edwards made Jul 4 at 2015 12:41 PM

2015-07-04T12:41:53-04:00

In 10+ years of military service, it was always be 15 minutes early to all appointments. The cop field really preaches the importance of being on time and it's a good way to make sure you're not late.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Jul 4 at 2015 7:33 PM

2015-07-04T19:33:52-04:00

For the AD, you have nothing else to do, for the NG and RA and other reservists, we have things to do. I have people who drive upwards of 8 -10hours to get to Drill, myself I have a 2 hour drive and have to go through a major city to do it. If we have a three or four day drill odds are I will be driving through weekday traffic, so when leaders start asking for meetings 10 minutes or 30-45 minutes prior to the start of drill your putting an imposition of people. Possibly forcing them to drive recklessly to get to hear exactly what pearls of wisdom? 99 times out of 100 nothing that would justify that soldier getting in an accident on a dark road in the middle of nowhere. Sometimes we don't apply safety on the front end of missions.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2015 9:20 AM

2015-07-05T09:20:18-04:00

Time management. Micromanagement.
What does receive the report mean? Turn around PLT SGT and ask your squad leaders who is there then turn back around and tell me.
For some reason, we can't seem to do this anymore. So what if it takes 5 minutes to do and then we do PT until 0735?
The 10 minutes to the 10 minutes prior stuff got old real quick. What is the problem with putting out the notes and stuff at 0900 work call? In the day of email and texting, we shouldn't be wasting people's time.

When we forget that we have Summary Art 15s and administrative reductions as tools for the younger Soldiers to get their act straight, we find ourselves as leaders doing more to prevent these issues by putting out blanket directives.

Response by Sgt Ken Prescott made Aug 8 at 2015 1:22 PM

2015-08-08T13:22:22-04:00

Good Gawd, I hated the "10 minutes prior," because every damn layer of the chain of command added their own ten minutes. When the Commandant came through MCAS Beaufort, that resulted in a 0700 formation with a 0550 be-there NLT.

In HMH-466, we had a simple policy: be there on time, or expect that you're getting volunteered to Group for whatever SLJs they might have.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 10:35 AM

2015-08-27T10:35:30-04:00

As long as it's ONLY 10 minutes prior, that's fine. I was active duty for a long time, and the larger the formation got, the more it was 10 minutes prior to the 10 minutes prior to the 10 minutes prior. Report at 0530 for a 0600 formation? That would have been a luxury back at the beginning of my career...more like 0450.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2016 1:14 PM

2016-04-21T13:14:00-04:00

if your on time your late always be earlly, when i held formations i want to know who is there, who isnt and why, i'll tell you later or i'll find out is'nt the answer, especially in the reserves, in those ten minutes nco's can be making thier accountabillty checks, did sm have car failure, over slept, or anything accountabillity no one is left behind

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2016 1:20 PM

2016-04-21T13:20:01-04:00

10-15 minutes prior is fine by me. It's when you get stupid with the prior to the prior to the prior and end up in formation 2+ hours is when it gets bad. Once upon a time, we showed up at 0400 for a range that opened at 1200.....

Response by SPC Kenneth Koerperich made Apr 22 at 2016 7:19 AM

2016-04-22T07:19:23-04:00

In my day, it was very important. 9/10 times it still gave you time to get "SQUARED" away in case the 1st Sgt, Plt Lt, or the Co Cmd decide to pop an inspection. Always, somebody knew before hand & could warn you so you could fix your "gigs". Also allowed for idle chat/cig breaks w/ members of the other Plts that you wouldn't get to see as much during the day, as you all may not be on the same Training Schedule for "said" day's work.

It also gave people time to try & find someone to pay & take their CQ Duties off their hands. I used to make it rich when in Garrison by taking extra CQ Duties. Back then you could get $200 for Co CQ duty, $300 for Bn CQ, & almost $500 for Regt CQ. Very few ever wanted Bn or Regt CQ, as you had to be "Impressive" in your uniform or be gigged by the SgtM/CsM's or the Lt Col/Col's.

Made for long days, but good $$$. Hehe!

So, IMO, it was VERY! important & profitable...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2016 1:41 PM

2016-09-22T13:41:45-04:00

We have 15 minutes prior in my unit. It's a bit absurd to be honest. 0630 pt becomes 0615. 0900 work call is now 0845. We get done with pt at 0800. 45 minutes for a commute, breakfast, shower, and commute back is pushing it. Also God forbid you show up at 0620... That's basically like being FTR. What happened to missing the command of fall in asserting that you were FTR? I can attest to this as I recently had a SFC tell me that I was late because I was early but not early enough... No information was being put out of anything. Didn't miss anything.. So he starts asking me "what am I going to do with you?" And on and on. It's hard to keep military bearing when youre being told you're late as you show up 10 minutes early. how can anyone stand behind something so idiotic?

I'm in agreeance with setting 10 - 15 minutes prior for a formation if there's something beyond the norm going on. Other than that I'd say 5 minutes prior is plenty of time for team leaders and squad leaders to get their count and relay that information to the platoon sergeant. Anything more is putting everyone on a kindergarten level. As we all know, if you treat someone like a kid long enough, they'll start acting the part.

Response by CPL Anthony Henderson made Aug 7 at 2020 7:43 PM

2020-08-07T19:43:57-04:00

I’m embarrassed at today’s military complaining about everything. It’s the responsibility of the soldier to do what their leaders tell them to. If you don’t like it, get motivated to make the rank to make the decisions