How Important is the Relationship between the Commander and CSM?

2015-05-13T19:49:07-04:00

Old Post back in May 2015, but still prevalent today in 2018 and I have more connections that I would like to hear from.

How many Commanders and CSM teams knew when to lead from the front and knew when to lead from behind?

What is your definition of the phrase "Know when to lead from the front and know when to lead from behind?

Are we teaching our junior officers and non-commissioned officers "when to" and "when not to"?

I would just like to hear the feedback and some of the great "war stories" of great command teams out there. I was blessed to have great CSMs at the Brigade and Battalion levels. Our relationship and how we worked together made all the difference in our command tours; difference our our junior leaders; and the overall culture and climate of the units.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made May 13 at 2015 7:57 PM

2015-05-13T19:57:42-04:00

In a word Essential. The CSM/SgtMaj is the Senior Enlisted Adviser to the CO. He provides insight that the CO needs. It's a key staff billet that exists at every echelon from BN to JCS. It's there for a reason.

I always jump back to Commanders Intent & Commanders Guidance. What he wants, and how he would generally like it. The Senior Enlisted Adviser is able to "interpret" that so we all have the same shared vision. I remember working with LtCol Donogal & SgtMaj Island at 3/1. They were able to present that vision so we successful.

Response by SGT Richard H. made May 13 at 2015 8:15 PM

2015-05-13T20:15:14-04:00

The importance of the relationship between a CO and 1SG is as close as Military rank structure can get to equaling the importance of the relationship between spouses. Absolutely crucial.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 13 at 2015 8:38 PM

2015-05-13T20:38:27-04:00

The O and E chains of command have to work as 1 and that can be difficult at best if the senior O and senior E are not in synch. They may not always agree but do need to support each other with the same goals. The senior O and their little O-lings need to lead while the senior E and the NCOs provide the command climate and supervision of troops to allow that to happen. Thankfully, I've seen more winning combinations than losing ones. The ones that didn't work, that I observed (and suffered through) was one where the CSM felt they should have more say in the leadership and tried one too many times to correct junior officers in place of the senior Os.

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 13 at 2015 9:37 PM

2015-05-13T21:37:18-04:00

A close relationship between a Commander, and a CSM or 1SG for that matter is a key to success. Is it necessary? Probably, not, but is makes things much better for all concern.

I had a 1SG relieved as a Company Commander and a CSM as Brigade Commander. Never forgot that the Commander, alone is responsible.

But, that relationship matters. Having someone to vent on/with, discuss issues with, hang with, and to tell you when you are off base (ate up/not wearing any clothes) is essential. But, even if you are not close, any good 1SG/CSM (and they all are) will always do the right thing and watch your six. COL Mikel J. Burroughs

Response by CSM David Heidke made May 14 at 2015 10:18 AM

2015-05-14T10:18:34-04:00

The CSM has to feel his opinion is being heard by the CDR, otherwise there is no point to have the team. Do they have to be "friends?," no.

I've heard it mentioned many times in my career that the CSM is the CDRs Battle Buddy. They take care of each other.

I have seen Commanders who don't and for other reasons he failed. It wasn't for lack of support from his CSM (or the CSMs that followed him because he left).

It could go the other way, but I don't have a perspective on that.

Response by CSM William Payne made May 19 at 2015 10:32 PM

2015-05-19T22:32:49-04:00

While it is very beneficial if the Commander and their CSM have a good relationship, it is not essential. What relationship they do have must be based on mutual respect, respect for the Commander's authority, responsibility and leadership and respect for the the CSMs experience and guidance in important and sensitive matters.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2015 1:52 PM

2015-05-20T13:52:17-04:00

COL Williams nailed it. My battle buddy was my Commander. We share things, advice banter goes back and forth. Giving a "Private's" point of view (if some of us can remember that far back). Regardless, I always knew that the Commander has the ultimate (legal) decision whether I agreed or not. When he made it, it was by-God law and I (we) could both agree on the merits.
This goes both ways. If the CSM/1SG made a snap decision, he "should" think about the Commander's input. If it's a good team, it would be in line with both of their thinking.

Here's to 'ya CPT Mendez!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2015 2:42 PM

2015-05-20T14:42:20-04:00

Imperative.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Feb 23 at 2016 3:00 PM

2016-02-23T15:00:56-05:00

The relationship between the Battalion and higher commander and his or her Command Sergeant Major is very important COL Mikel J. Burroughs. When this relationship functions well the unit is able to function well in peace and war or other turbulent times. Open and frank communication is important to be maintained between the Commander and his or her Command Sergeant Major.

Response by SPC Andrew Griffin made Feb 23 at 2016 4:00 PM

2016-02-23T16:00:56-05:00

Very Important! But the CSM needs to be Stern and Staunch and let the CO know that NCO Business is NCO Business!

Response by SSG Leonard J W. made Feb 24 at 2016 1:21 AM

2016-02-24T01:21:32-05:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs, The commander is responsible overall; however, the NCOIC/Senior Enlisted Leader [SEL] (CSM, 1SG, MCPO, SCPO, etc.) has the responsibility of overseeing the enlisted personnel within his/her unit. The enlisted personnel are normally the bulk of any unit, so although the commander is responsible overall, he/she must trust the NCOIC/SEL to oversee the enlisted personnel - while overseeing yet empowering them to do so. Their relationship is the very key to success. They must see eye-to-eye, and they must be capable of delegating authority to the right individuals. Micromanagement is not always the most effective leadership method. Good leaders will always know when to "remove their hands from the bicycle seat and let their little ones succeed." Otherwise, the junior personnel will never "grow up." Therefore, the Commander and NCOIC/SEL must have a great working relationship if the unit is to function and develop effectively.

Response by SSG Leo Bell made Feb 25 at 2016 12:08 PM

2016-02-25T12:08:31-05:00

A good close relationship between the Co and the CSM makes the unit stronger and better. NCO's always say we run the units and the officer take care of the paperwork. A good team always leads from the front and take great care of there soldiers and there family. The great Co an CSM who are down to earth and know we all put our pants on the same way, who give respect as they need to earn respect, plus know there not a better human being then and other person has my respect and I would follow.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Mar 5 at 2016 4:45 PM

2016-03-05T16:45:06-05:00

IMO it is important but not as necessary as some might think. They can have a bad relationship but be professional about and still be successful. BTDT

I had it both ways. One commander I was close with. The other not so much. But we were professional about it and did the job.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2016 1:38 PM

2016-03-23T13:38:07-04:00

Well, Sir, I would say no matter what you are doing, as the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Commander, you and the Commander are ALWAYS leading from the front; you may be in the background and/or at the bottom of the inverted pyramid, "pushing it up", but you are still leading from the front: by example; by influence; by mentoring, coaching, and training, etc. Your troops look to you and the Commander all the time for guidance, and you must always be ready to lead by example, whatever that entails, making sure you live by solid life & leadership principles.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made May 9 at 2017 10:55 AM

2017-05-09T10:55:47-04:00

At Bn level it is very important.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Jul 22 at 2018 11:09 PM

2018-07-22T23:09:41-04:00

If You expect those within Your command to work as a team then Your Commander and CSM also need to be a team to lead. Its also important that a mutual respect exist not only between the two of them but all those serving with their chain of command. You people will do their job but will go above and beyond if they fee they count. I have worked for Commanders and First Sergeants that did exactly that as well as commanders at higher level, in My case within the USAF a CCMSgt, (a comparable level to a CSM in Army)

I also have worked as a First Sergeant for two different Commanders and found those same principles worked quite well for the Team that Myself and the Commander had, it worked well. I know when I was in Vietnam We had a Commander and First Sergeant We would do anything for without hesitation and also knew they had our back. Back then as a young troop I had all the respect in the world for both of those men and they not only deserved that respect, they earned it.

Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Jul 23 at 2018 12:29 PM

2018-07-23T12:29:54-04:00

Not so much in the Air Force as the Army. Our local chiefs and Commanders' relationships are very important.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 23 at 2018 2:29 PM

2018-07-23T14:29:10-04:00

You can definitely do without the relationship as long as everyone involved is professional. However, if the lack of relationship affects either in performing their respective roles it can be disruptive and will have an impact on the units overall success. This is when you tend to see the one Battalion that always stands out in a BDE. Anyway it is far better that they get along personally and professionally. Thank you for your service

Response by LTC Thomas Tennant made Jul 23 at 2018 4:07 PM

2018-07-23T16:07:02-04:00

Simply put...just as important (if not more so) as the relationship between a Company Commander and First Sargent. After commanding three BN sized units within the USAR, my CSM's were critical for my successes and those of the command as a whole. I have often stress the need for a the NCO common sense test that every "good idea" or plan needs to go through. Without NCO buy-in, in particular the CSM, at best you'll get marginal results because they have to "sell" and lead the troops on the execution. In fact while in Bosnia (a fully operational environment) I did not have a CSM, my job of being a task force leader was severely hampered. The Russian's lent me one of their senior Spetsnaz Warrants which aided me at least with their assigned teams...but not the same.

Response by SGT Chris McDonald made Jul 23 at 2018 5:38 PM

2018-07-23T17:38:03-04:00

The command element must work together like clock work.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Jul 23 at 2018 8:11 PM

2018-07-23T20:11:37-04:00

Had a Cmdr and 1st that had a good business relationship and the Cmdr gave him a long lead on what he could do. The Sqdn Admin Officer was a good part of the team and would shorten the leash when Cmdr was gone TDY or on leave..
He felt the Cmdr gave 1st too much lead
In what he was allowed to do.. (Our Admin Lt. Was former enlisted and relied quite a bit on the U.CM.J. For references..
which is good .. 1st was more of a “for common sense” the UC.M.J. Was there if he needed it.. (example: we had a Cook that was from West-Philly and had Been U.A. a few times.. Cmdr. Was gone TDY and Admin Officer was in charge.. The U.A. Called 1st at home and 1st drove over to W. Philly to get him and bring him back
and restricted to his rm until Monday on his honor and He would deal with his sit-rep on Monday Morn’g.. The act’g Cmdr
and duty Sgt. Aware walking through the barracks and heard a noise coming from the U.A.’s room.. so he orders the Duty Sgt. To open up and sees the U.A... Cmdr. Orders the Duty Sgt to bring the U.A. To the Orderly rm and calls the Security Police and tells the U.A. Is back and he wants him secured at C.C.(correctional Custody) Barracks. 1st showed up for duty.... Cmdr asked him did he know he was back.. He did..” I restricted him to his room until this morning and I would get him and work on his Sit-rep, Cmdr.” “What are we supposed to do with U.As, 1st Sgt.... according to the U.C.M.J. And Base Regulations?”... 1st repeated them back to him.. “.Why wasn’t that done, 1SGT?” The Cmdr asked him.. (this is from the U.A.’s description of the sitrep.. he still had not gone to C.C. Barracks ).. Now it appeared 1St was in a jam because he didn’t follow the U.C.M.J... He did get a L.O.R. Which the real Cmdr.struck down..
later.. 1st was going to work out a sit-rep where the U.A. did an extra 2 hrs OJT time.. each.day and 3 hrs on his days off .
Meanwhile 1st would work to get humanitarian paperwork to get the mom and little sister (6), into quarters as dependents.... The Act’g Cmdr was going to undo that.... putting the U.A. Into C.C. and start’g paperwork to discharge him..
fortunately the Real Cmdr. Came back from TDY early .. and helped 1st get his idea set in motion. The Mother’s financial sitrep and Home condition was ripe for s’thing like what the 1st and Cdr. was doing for the Airman.. Cdr. pulled a number and promoted the AMN to A1C but he really had to keep his nose clean ..
I believed he would and so did the 1st and Cdr. S’times using common sense can be better than going by the U.C.M.J... The Admin Lt. Asked for reassignment... He got it! Eilson AFB, AK.. not exactly his choice.. . Cmdr thought it a good place to cool his heals... the A1C and his mom and little sis got assigned a modular housing unit in Airman housing.... off base. Cmdr got him cleared from assignment long as possible... finally he
Got sent to Thailand in ‘73 .. he got there when I was half way in mine.. I had extended 6 months .. so at 9 months I was halfway through the tour. I got assigned as his mentor./sponsor.. His mom got a job at base Child nursery, his little sis was 8 now and going to 3rd grade at the base dependent school .. He passed some pics.. He had quite a lot to be proud of..
I had earned my SSGT. Near the last few months of my tour.. Base tried to play a switch and promote some people to satisfy affirmative action and 2 of them in the Sqdn. Our Cmdr thought CBPO and
EORO-Equal Opp Relat Office game was a bulls**t scam.. He sent a letter back signed by s couple good NCOs, both the same racial orientation as those EORO and CBPO wanted promoted.. that they were not ready, maybe in 3 or 4 months time. Meanwhile I got mine in time to Rotate back as SSGT. .I got a letter from
The A1C I mentored that EORO and CBPO
Were not happy with Those two TSGTS
And the Cmdr that held those 2 SGTs back from SSGT. I’m So happy I’m not
There.. and the earth continues to rotate on it’s axis ....

Response by CPT Scott Sharon made Jul 24 at 2018 9:42 AM

2018-07-24T09:42:02-04:00

I can't really answer this question directly because I only spent a couple months of my 3 years on active duty at the battalion level. However, I did see how critical the 1st Sargent was at the company level and can assume the same for the CSM. I always had a great relationship with our 1st Sargent and he was a critical member of the command.

Response by SSgt Holden M. made Jul 24 at 2018 1:58 PM

2018-07-24T13:58:49-04:00

In my personal opinion the relationship between the CSM or Chief for the Air Force anyway the most senior ranking enlisted and the commander is key in any squadron/unit. I think they both have to have an equal amount of respect for each other and each others opinions on certain things, and most importantly they have to back each other up on whatever rules and regulations they have specific to that base/post and squadron/unit.

On the part about if we are teaching when to and when not to I personally don't really think we are teaching as much as should be. It seems like if you get a good mentor that teaches you important stuff like that you are one of the few lucky ones. They do have NCO academy and all the stuff after that but I think to be a truly good leader that knows when to lead from the front and when to lead from behind takes a very skilled individual, and can't always be taught in a class room environment.

Response by LTC Jeff Shearer made Jul 24 at 2018 2:40 PM

2018-07-24T14:40:58-04:00

COL I was very fortunate in that the NCOs in SF are standard setters in every aspect. Now as an ODA CDR I had not PVTs only NCOs matter of fact my most jr guy was SSG. Even during periods of time when we are not at war the SF NCO's have to perform at a level much greater than their pay grade. It was/is not uncommon to send our NCO's to do things that was normally at least a Company grade Officer.

COL I was also blessed to have great CSM's/SGM's, they were war fighters and leaders of war fighters.

COL every time we have a discussion like this it makes me miss it even more.

Response by SSG Jose M. Hernandezsanchez made Jul 24 at 2018 2:41 PM

2018-07-24T14:41:21-04:00

In my opinion, it boils down to the proper understanding the Commissioned and Non-commissioned officer's professional relationship, and how important it is to know who is responsible for what, and the differences or similarities of officer business and NCO business. Even though the responsibilities of the officer and the NCO are separate, they are related. They are related in a way by sharing the same mission/vision whether is at the company, battalion, brigade levels, etc.
Yes, the Commander is responsible of the unit as a whole, and the NCO is responsible to oversee its personnel. With that said, Commanders have to put/place their trust on his NCO. They have to make sure they're both "on point" or at least meet in "middle ground" for the success of not only the Commander and 1SG/CSM, but also the unit.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2018 3:02 PM

2018-07-24T15:02:32-04:00

The relationship between the Commander and CSM/1SG sets the tone for an organization. If the commander doesn't trust the CSM or vice versa, the troops will know. There's an old saying in the K-9 corps, attitude runs down the leash. People will be less inclined to step up if they fear immediate retribution; growth occurs when people step out of their comfort zone which is a benefit of leading from behind.

Response by LTC James McElreath made Jul 24 at 2018 5:09 PM

2018-07-24T17:09:02-04:00

The relationship between the BC and his CSM is of utmost importance. He needs to be concerned with the units moral. The best way to get this information is through his most senior NCO. This goes all the way down the chain to 1sg and CC, PNCO and Lt.
This is in a way how officers learn their job, by having a good NCO train him/her how to lead.

Response by SP5 Geoffrey Vannerson made Jul 24 at 2018 5:33 PM

2018-07-24T17:33:56-04:00

I was fortunate or (in some aspects un-fortunate) to work in what was refereed to as the (BTOC) or Battalion Tactical Operations Center in Germany while serving in a Hawk fire unit with the 3/7 ADA unit. Within the confines of this little small expand-o semi sized unit were our LTC, a Captain, a 1st lieutenant, and our Command Sargent Major. We were the 3 lower EM's who communicated with the Hawk fire units under the orders of the "Supreme Allied Commander" or (SAC). I have to agree with CSM Heidke "they don't have to be friends, but they do have to work together." I was fortunate that even tho my LTC was a 4 letter dirty word slinging monster, and my CSM was a by the book hard-ass they got the job done and we were the best Europe. Just like here in the real world you have a boss and he may be a pain in the ass but he is still the boss, and if your the supervisor you have to get the troops/workers to do the job that is necessary for success. After the job is done you can either have a couple of beers and laugh, or you can simply go your separate ways until the next time. Life and safety over friendship in matters of life and death!

Response by CMDCM John F. "Doc" Bradshaw made Jul 24 at 2018 6:54 PM

2018-07-24T18:54:14-04:00

Absolutely Necessary both up and down the Chain of Command!!!

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2018 8:50 PM

2018-07-24T20:50:29-04:00

Jesus referred to people as 'sheep'. Sheep are always led from the front Not driven from behind as cattle!

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made Jul 25 at 2018 2:40 PM

2018-07-25T14:40:39-04:00

They should be one the same sheet of music, but one should also recognize when the other is wrong, and provide the correct advise. Based on my experiences and what i have seen, the best command teams, take each others advise and corrections. They learn from each other.

Response by MSG Danny Mathers made Jul 25 at 2018 6:15 PM

2018-07-25T18:15:44-04:00

I believe respects is the prime factor. I have seen in the past especially in Big Army where there was no respect towards the CSM due to differences in career fields. I do not believe a sergeant major is a sergeant major. Putting a Artillery CSM with a Ranger Infantry Commander does not works or any other support CSM with a combat arms commanders. There are two armies the airborne and the legs'; They have little in common.

Response by Cpl Gabriel F. made Jul 25 at 2018 6:19 PM

2018-07-25T18:19:59-04:00

In the leaders mission it is a must. Take care of all in the unit and each other for success.

Response by 1SG William Svoboda made Jul 26 at 2018 11:15 AM

2018-07-26T11:15:52-04:00

Let me sum it up this way: If one farts the other feels relief! The relationship is essential to the units mission outcomes, garrison troop morale, day to day operations, and while some might debate this totality of the relationship I say if its anything else, then simple face to face one on one discussion would result in positivity. Both are senior leaders and they didn't get there by not being listeners and flexible, I hope! But, serious war fighters and support personal can't afford given the bad actors on the world stage that the US has to eradicate, world wide humanitarian deployments and the list goes on. Plus you never know for sure who you will be working with latter in your career or as civilian. My list of jr leaders in my career that latter crossed paths with me as senior leaders include General's Benjamin C. Freakley, Eric Ken Shinseki, Barry Richard McCaffrey, and Robert Wagner. I had face time with all of these in both ends of their military careers and I'm happy I never pissed in their corn flakes. Once I thought I did with General Shinseki when he was a Troop Commander in Schweinfurt Germany. I was giving a presentation to all units pre-deployment and when his 3rd Squadron, 7th Cavalry troops came into the theater they stood and rocked the walls with their unit motto and I heard "If you ain't Cav you ain't shit. So the smart ass young NCO, (me) said in response, that means if you are Cav you are shit as a question. He was in the front row and at first you could here a pin drop. But he saved my ass and said, yes SGT shit that hurts like hell and with that the troops roared. Afterwards he gave me his coin and thanked me for a lively presentation. I have great stories with all of them and I feel strongly the relationship with leaders are critical. I once heard and often repeated an officer state that Non Commissioned Officers are officers non commissioned, but officers none the less.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2018 10:38 AM

2018-07-27T10:38:35-04:00

There isnt a "lead from any angle". Its a lead. Both have different goals and different jobs. An officer gives the command to make it happen, the nco makes it happen and yet let's the officer know how totally f'd up the request is or how little they know about how f'd up request is, (in a subtle way of course). The officers job is to give the order, the NCO's job is to guide to officer, and the soldiers on getting the objective done.

Response by SGT Charles Clemons made Jul 30 at 2018 12:35 AM

2018-07-30T00:35:20-04:00

One thing I learned from listening and watching the senior ranks during the 16 months I drove for LTC Lynch at Ft Hood was something I was able to successfully pass on to a couple of the brighter and less prideful new LT's was this.
Find 1 or 2 good, solid senior NCOs and put yourself in thier pockets, ask them every question you can think of, then follow thier advice, because it'll help you make excellent grades on your OER because you wont be making the newbee mistakes of your peers.
The 2 who actually took my advice got promoted ahead of thier peers.
Relations between Commissioned and Non- are critical.
The Bible explains it best. A House divided against itself will not stand. The same analogy goes for the Command Team.

Response by Capt Al Parker made Aug 17 at 2018 4:22 PM

2018-08-17T16:22:56-04:00

A good Commander uses the CSM as his voice to the enlisted troops.

Response by CCMSgt Joe Dehorty made Sep 4 at 2018 5:30 PM

2018-09-04T17:30:00-04:00

It is critical! My commander knew that I had his 6, 100% of the time. He also asked my advice on some of his squadron commanders after I had made my semi-annual visit. I always gave my best advice, whether positive or not on the combat readiness of the units. We enjoyed a great relationship. After I retired he went on to get both stars at the Pentagon.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2018 9:10 PM

2018-10-21T21:10:22-04:00

I believe it really matters what kind of element you are in. In SOF its vital. Without a great 1SG/CO CSM/CO relationship, guys would be hurting. Personally I think they have it right there. A commander and senior enlisted leader should be there to support the war fighter.
Not vice versa. Unfortunately most conventional units have mitigated the CSM’s to glorified hall monitors. He/she walks around at pt ensuring people do it,ensures grass is cut and uniforms look good. It’s a sad state of affairs.

Response by CW2 Michael Bodnar made Jun 14 at 2019 11:58 PM

2019-06-14T23:58:11-04:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs I think there's one rank that's missing from the is equation. Since I've become a Warrant Officer, I've found my relationships with my Commander's and senior leaders is vital to the success of our organization. Enlisted and Officers come to me for advice and to get a pulse on what's happening inside their formations. They come to me because I don't sugar coat anything and will tell them like it is. They may not want to hear what I have to say but there are times when they need to hear it.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 24 at 2019 12:53 PM

2019-06-24T12:53:21-04:00

Right or wrong, I believe the combination should be a Type A and Type B instead of total Type A or Type B.