How is it possible that the federal government, NSA, and FBI can't crack an iPhone, but they think Apple can?

2016-02-22T11:28:51-05:00

A federal court has ordered Apple to create a "back door" in order to access the San Bernardino terrorist's iPhone. Apparently, iPhones have a feature where 10 unsuccessful password attempts zeroizes the device, and the feds "can't" figure it out. If true, this portends a dangerous weakness in capabilities. If not, the feds are attempting to force cooperation from a private company at their cost.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 11:40 AM

2016-02-22T11:40:40-05:00

I think rather than have Apple design a backdoor, just have Apple decode the phone's hard drive with a court order anytime an act like San Bernardino occurs. Saves time and citizens' privacy.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 22 at 2016 11:44 AM

2016-02-22T11:44:47-05:00

This is a "technical" issue. Here's a quick rundown.

The way the CURRENT Operating System (OS) is designed is that after X (10) failed login attempts, the device (phone) wipes all of its on-board memory. This protects your data.

The "Proposal" is that Apple "develop" the ability to UPGRADE/REVERT the OS on a devise to a state where an "unlimited number of attempts" is allowed, which would bypass the protection of the data.

This requirement would require a "backdoor" (misnomer, but let's use it for simplicity) that allows the upgrading or reversion to a specific OS version without using the pass-code. Apple is capable of making this. This is actually fairly "simple" for them, however it violates the purpose of their encryption (locks), and creates larger concerns in the future.

As an example, let's use TSA approved Luggage Locks. Only you have the key! Except the TSA has "master keys" which they have promised to safeguard. You can't buy that key. Except when someone at the TSA allowed their key to be photographed, and someone with a 3d printer made a set, and distributed the plans for them.

http://www.wired.com/2015/09/lockpickers-3-d-print-tsa-luggage-keys-leaked-photos/

This is a parallel for why this is a "bad deal." The government cannot be Trusted with "backdoors" because they are frankly "Incompetent" and have a track-record for abuse of Power.

Lockpickers 3-D Print TSA Master Luggage Keys From Leaked Photos

Another lesson in why you should never show pictures of sensitive keys on the Internet.

Response by CSM David Heidke made Feb 22 at 2016 11:55 AM

2016-02-22T11:55:32-05:00

government employees are not necessarily the "best and the brightest."

They are the ones who can navigate USAjobs.

And that doesn't mean that they possess the technical expertise to crack an iPhone.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Feb 22 at 2016 12:01 PM

2016-02-22T12:01:44-05:00

I find it ironic that this administration abuses power nearly every day with the average citizen, but when it comes to conglomerates, with lots of cash and influence, they can't make it happen. The term "overcome by events" will be appropriate soon, because all evidence that can be captured will be mitigated by time. WTF is with all the NSA expertise that they can not do this themselves? How much of their funding goes to scientists that should be able to reverse engineer the phones.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Feb 22 at 2016 12:05 PM

2016-02-22T12:05:34-05:00

Modern encryption cannot be brute-forced (cracked by throwing every possible combination at it) by all the computing power on the planet, working in concert. It's not that the NSA or FBI can't brute-force encrypted info -- it's that no one can. The majority of encryption that gets broken these days is done by social engineering -- the pretty girl you whisper to in the bar, the idiotic secretary that writes her pw down, dumb people that use their birthdays for the pw's, etc.

Having said that, if that phone is locked with just a numeric code that's limited to what, 4-6 numbers (I've never used an iphone, so I'm not sure how it works for them), then that severely limits the number of possible iterations, and the NSA or FBI could definitely crack that -- you could with your own computer. BUT...you only get 10 shots and then it wipes. That's the problem. 3.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Feb 22 at 2016 12:11 PM

2016-02-22T12:11:37-05:00

Apple has the code.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 12:14 PM

2016-02-22T12:14:00-05:00

Maybe Hillary should have used an iPhone for her personal email instead of a Blackberry.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Feb 22 at 2016 12:49 PM

2016-02-22T12:49:09-05:00

World terrorism has found it possible and effective to use our own freedoms against US. By affording our Constitutional freedoms to terrorist-types helps them to gravely injure US. Even Nazis and Nips stuck to conventional bombs and bullets mass murder, etc. The great USA has pigged-out on our own freedoms for too long and now they are being used against US. Hopefully it will not be 'to late' by the time people realize the only way to fight fire is with fire.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Feb 22 at 2016 1:01 PM

2016-02-22T13:01:32-05:00

For all those theories out there, I'll add another for the "conspiracy club". Who says they haven't? The timing and emotions are aligned to make a power grab on the side? Copy, image, try 10, reimage, try another 10. Do it in an array; faster. Who knows?

BTW on this particular phone, there is no privacy issue. Owned by the county and used in a crime. Either alone negates privacy. OK to have the discussion about law abiding and privacy in general though.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Feb 22 at 2016 2:31 PM

2016-02-22T14:31:16-05:00

I think it boils down to legal issues and the legal gathering of evidence, if any, on that device.
If the FBI breaks the encryption on that device without Apples help it could get sticky because now you have illegally hacked into that device and any information obtained would be inadmissible.
In my opinion I think that Apple has the capability to create a single use algorithm to break into this device and allow the FBI to see what is on that phone. I don't buy that excuse that resetting the password on the iCloud caused the information to be lost, I have reset my password on my iCloud without any loss of data that I had in the Cloud.
I can also understand Apples point because once created it can be adapted to other devices and I would worry that some Apple employee looking to get a good payday could sell that algorithm to the right person.
I think that the FBI, because of the constraints of evidence gathering and handling, is in a tough position because if they knowing violate the law anything they get is useless legally.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 4:00 PM

2016-02-22T16:00:39-05:00

All I can say is I have an android because I always forget my code and it would piss me off to lose everything. I will also say all that is in my phone is numbers and emails address. I don't trust them to do more.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 23 at 2016 11:20 AM

2016-02-23T11:20:22-05:00

Added for context. Article is from 2014 and quotes the current FBI Director (who I respect, but disagree with).

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/us/politics/fbi-director-in-policy-speech-calls-dark-devices-hindrance-to-crime-solving.html?emc=edit_th_20141017&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=30254405&_r=2

This is "historical" however it sets the "tone" for the discussion we are having now. The San Bernadino issue is merely an event which "justifies" this historical statement.

CC: Capt Richard I P. MSgt Kurt Woodward MAJ Private RallyPoint Member

James Comey, F.B.I. Director, Hints at Action as Cellphone Data Is Locked

Mr. Comey said on Thursday that the “post-Snowden pendulum” that has driven Apple and Google to offer fully encrypted cellphones had “gone too far.”

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 23 at 2016 3:28 PM

2016-02-23T15:28:53-05:00

https://www.morningstar.com/news/dow-jones/us-markets/TDJNDN_ [login to see] 036/justice-department-seeks-to-force-apple-to-extract-data-from-about-12-other-iphones.html

Justice Department Seeks to Force Apple to Extract Data From About 12 Other iPhones

Justice Department Seeks to Force Apple to Extract Data From About 12 Other iPhones, Read most current stock market news, Get stock, fund, etf analyst reports from an independent source you can trust – Morningstar

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 3:36 PM

2016-02-23T15:36:40-05:00

That’s because ownership of the OS code allows the ability to bypass the security of the device or system. What, you don’t think Microsoft and Apple are “NOT” looking into your privet life on a regular basis?

Response by SSG William Rhodes made Feb 23 at 2016 6:11 PM

2016-02-23T18:11:26-05:00

I am stunned that the FBI, a federal court, bill gates ,51% of our nation citizens and even a draft dodger Trump are all criticizing Apple for their resistance to oblige. Now I know this case is a little different but how come these steps weren't taken with Hillary's Hardrive?. I am all about doing everything possible and necessary to capture or destroy terrorist cells here and abroad but to order a private company to compromise the privacy of IOS iPhone users by creating a back door is outrageous specially when a Secretary of State who did not comply with proper security of classified information and apparently we don't even have a clue how much of it was compromised.
Until this day I am a big supporter of the Patriit Act and if our representatives in congress and senate would of taken the necessary steps to ensure the NSA was utilizing this tool properly instead of spying on our allies or using it at their own will maybe just maybe this great tool would still be in effect, our government wouldn't have to bully Apple around. By the way thank you Senator Rand Paul for your pathetic stand you pull to get rid of the Patiot Act.

Response by SP5 Joel O'Brien made Feb 23 at 2016 9:37 PM

2016-02-23T21:37:15-05:00

Methinks that the FBI should 'recruit' a hacker from the dark side to do what they cannot.

Response by SGT Edward Clark made Feb 25 at 2016 12:12 PM

2016-02-25T12:12:54-05:00

Just a point here if you all remember BlackBerry getting asked to set up a server in a country so that country's government could keep I eye on the data flowing through the Blackberries in their country. BlackBerry said no and no one raised a big stink about it what has change.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2016 12:56 PM

2016-03-15T12:56:05-04:00

Give it to a teenager...they'll have it unlocked and a "how-to" video on YouTube in a few days.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2017 12:58 PM

2017-11-28T12:58:43-05:00

1SG, if I’m not the FBI did jack the device, via third party assistance. Whether or not this was a case of acquiring software or having a person perform the act themselves I believe has yet to reach the public. This is both alarming to know our limitations but also reassuring in the fact that our private devices can’t be so easily accessed. This falls directly into the realms of the game where we try to decide how much information collection is too much on the American public, in such, is it a compromise of rights, etc. as for why they believed Apple could do it, I would theorize that the FBI believed that since apples designed the encryption, they could provide back door access

Response by SSG Diane R. made Nov 28 at 2017 5:34 PM

2017-11-28T17:34:33-05:00

Hint, they can.