How long could the Berlin Brigade have held out if the Soviets had attacked?

SPC Angela Burnham — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:06:39 -0400

A gentleman I did security with a long time ago served in the Berlin Brigade in the 80s, and said that if a conventional WW3 ever broke out, all of West Germany would have likely fallen in less than a month, West Berlin far sooner. How long do you think they could have lasted against a sustained assault from all directions?

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Aug 22 at 2019 8:08 PM

CW4 Craig Urban — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:08:32 -0400

one day

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 22 at 2019 8:12 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:12:54 -0400

I think they would have been a speed bump.

Response by SPC Jon O. made Aug 22 at 2019 8:13 PM

SPC Jon O. — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:13:34 -0400

It wouldn't have been a cake for them I'll tell you that.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Aug 22 at 2019 8:30 PM

SPC Erich Guenther — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:30:31 -0400

Yeah the projection during the 1980's was a day or less. Most people never realized it during the Cold War but both East and West Berlin were in the heart of East Germany and surrounded by East German and Soviet Mech Infantry or Armored Tank Divisions. Their role was largely a trip wire that would invoke the NATO treaty with full participation by the United States, France and the UK (thats why they all had their own Berlin sectors to defend and had troops there as well) versus a serious Defense of Berlin. Back in the 1980's they used Infantry detachments to guard and protect sensitive sites. A friend of mine from OSUT who is now a FB friend guarded the Pershing Missles sites. He stated they had det cord all around the launchers ready to blow them in case the expected Soviet deep airstrike happened and they were faced with an attack by Spetsnaz. They had to do drills running from a 24 by 7 staffed rally point to the launchers in full combat gear as last resort security to delay an assault long enough so the launchers could be blown up along with themselves as they did not want the nukes or technology to be captured. A lot of the units in West Germany had suicide missions like that. Others had the charge towards the front line and hold as long as you can defense strategy. The key defensive points were and probably still are. Ports of Bremerhaven, fall back or retreat port I think was Amsterdam not sure but it was in the next country over. Also to defend the Airport at Frankfurt Main and Rhine Mein so as many civilians and Soldiers Families could evacuate. Back to the Berlin Brigade, I believe their retreat plan in case of attack was to ditch the uniform and ride out in bicycles.........that is what I heard and it was probably rumor vs fact. I don't think they had orders to stand and fight but I could be mistaken.

Response by SPC David S. made Aug 22 at 2019 8:51 PM

SPC David S. — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:51:09 -0400

The Russian armor formation was split into two specialized formations - the tank division and the mechanized division. In regards to main battle tanks NATO vs WARSAR pack - it was like 17000 to 46000. It would have been a blitz assault - a couple of days.

Response by SPC Kevin Ford made Aug 22 at 2019 8:53 PM

SPC Kevin Ford — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:53:16 -0400

Not long. The real reason they are there is for a similar reason the 2ID sits in front of the Chorwon Valley, to ensure a war with the US is triggered if they attack with associated US public support. It is a heck of a deterrent.

Are you sure you want a huge war with the US? Are you really sure, because guaranteed that's what's going to happen if you attack here.

Response by CPT Brad Wilson made Aug 22 at 2019 8:56 PM

CPT Brad Wilson — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:56:50 -0400

Probably a couple of days

Response by PO3 Donald Murphy made Aug 22 at 2019 10:04 PM

PO3 Donald Murphy — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 22:04:01 -0400

Remember that estimates and guestimates and best planning are based on pre-Berlin Wall falling. Post fall of the wall, we know a ton of stuff that we kinda suspected. MI-6 and MI-5 were pretty much 99 [login to see] 9% right-on-the-money with their "estimates."

1. Solidarnosk - Poland never truly recovered from the "uprising" and the Russians denuded a lot of the area due to trust issues. As a result, the East German garrisons fielded the best gear. Poland will be a staging area but will not be trusted to perform a major role. This requires extra security/KGB forces.

2. East Germany - receiving the lion's share of training and gear the DDR was the cream of the crop of WARPACT forces. However, when the USN bombed Syria in 1983 and Libya in 1986, several key pieces of Soviet AAW tech failed. Or maybe 'we' invented a suitable jam for it? Hard to say. DDR then noted that their role was still the same even tho they had weakened gear. Being made up of mostly wasteful Russian-front veterans, even the dumbest among them could read the writing on the wall. Spy-talk tells of a sudden "turn to the left" should the order to cross the border be given.

3. USN - everything we had up to that time, worked like it was supposed to work. Hornet is now on Med-based carriers and bases and all subs have sub-launched Tomahawk and Harpoon missiles. Tons of subs in the Med and close by. The Tomahawks "could be" the BGM-109 bomblet variety with an anti vehicle, airfield use. Others could be the cratering heavy warhead variety. Sixth Fleet has two carriers and Atlantic Fleet has two active with two in refit/repair. Indian Ocean Fleet's carriers operate close enough to jump the border if needed. Each carrier during 80's Cold War has 86-90 aircraft. The USN up until early 1989 has had several Alpha-Strike moments. Each one "doing what it was intended to do." Operations El Dorado Canyon, Prairie Fire, Prairie Fire II, etc. Russian stuff in the hands of others, is being destroyed "at-will" with little impact to the USN.

4. RAF - Tornado and Jaguar in Desert Storm performed as intended. RAF shelters also perform as intended. Once the ball drops, the RAF will do it's well rehearsed kamikaze raid and take out as many formation toys as it can. Soviet radar in Soviet hands will do no better than Soviet radar in Iraqi hands. They will shoot down the RAF (like Iraq does) but after the bombing has already happened. Shooting down the bomber AFTER he bombs you is counter productive...

5. USAFE - virtually all AWACS and tanker assets the USAF owns have a hotel room in Europe. Additionally, one of the USAF's biggest bomb dumps is in the UK (RAF Scunthorpe). Bases in Spain, Netherlands and Italy are always on hair-trigger alert to back up the pre-meditated fall of the German bases. Once the RAF sorties, the USAFE will be free'd from any "mother-may-I" conditions and will start doing what it rehearsed daily: control of the air. Within minutes, F-15's and F-16's will be "directing traffic" over the Fulda Gap. F-111's and F-15E's will join the RAF Tornado's in surgical killing of Soviet comms and infrastructure. Laser works. As does jamming.

6. USA/USMC - the troops performed the way they were supposed to during Desert Storm so there is no need to assume that their performance would be any less spectacular. TOW is the killer it is advertised to be and the 25mm chain gun mounted on the Apache and Bradley is actually a lot more killerific than previously thought. Also, the US Army and Marine's penchant for charging outnumbered into Iraqi positions was rehearsed from Soviet attack planning. So the American man-on-the-ground will not buckle/waver over being outnumbered by a Soviet blitzkrieg. MLRS and M-109 are more devastating than imagined. And also against Soviet trained/equipped forces.

7. British Army Of The Rhine/French Berlin Forces. Well...the fact is that the British and French Army saw successful combat during Desert Storm. So the only small niggle will be the marching orders. Do the Brits/French fall under West German command when the whistle blows or do they make their way to safety as they see fit? This aspect of "Berlin" was never rehearsed publicly. Regular British Army stuff on West German ground would do what NATO planning accounted for.

**********************************

Whistle blows - WarPac attacks. Note that Berlin is actually in East Germany. So will there be "bombing" and "arty strikes?" Counter productive, right? Also, DDR will know that it is the "start line" and therefore "it" will be the rock upon which the NATO wave crashes itself. Peter Wright in Spycatcher and others feel that only the die-hard zealots will head West. The majority - possibly half to two thirds - of the East German armor/infantry will deliberately stall/peter out. Should this happen, NATO air heading for Soviet throats gets to the Soviet throat quicker. Even barring a neutral loving Italy telling the Soviets "they may not join in" it will be brutal for the Soviets within the hour. If the East Germans do not falter, then it will be Easting 72 all over again as they travel down well sited roads and areas. West Germany has minefields and arty of its own.

2nd hour - NATO (USAFE) air superiority over the battle area. Should Moscow understand this, it will then contemplate whether to leave Europe to its own devices or replace losses from Frontal Aviation stocks. Once planes start sorties from Russia proper, the motherland then opens itself up to strikes from two inbound USN alpha strikes which it already knows it can't beat. Should Russia stay put, then NATO owns the air.

3rd hour - keeping American, British and French tank scores what they are, where would the Warsaw Pact Forces be? Germany did not take part in Desert Storm so we don't have a 1989/1990 quotient for them. We assume they will fight to the death and at least take one tank with them for every Leopard killed, but we have no data.

At this point, giving NATO a historical accuracy that it had during Desert Storm, here's what we have: no RAF in Europe left. No Russian command infrastructure, radar or initiative. Limited East German. As the Russians were eerily the first to cave in when the Berlin Wall fell, we have to give them that point. This would leave all of Poland and most of East Germany alone wondering where to go. West German and NATO psyops would be quick to let the Warpackers know they are alone and Poland sealing off East Germany's butt would be all but guaranteed.

Any Russian forces would be separated and picked off as advertised. East German forces would be separated in the hope that they seek a settlement. Peter Wright (and others) reckon a silent movement over to freedom's side, by the DDR component. As the DDR are really the best shots, best this, best that, the Russian component will sadly fall to pieces in death.

It would take 24 hours using comms of the day to settle everything and get the Russians to agree to leave Europe. Keep in mind that the Russian reasoning for this is Europe only. Not to start a world war we would hope. Also keep in mind that the USN and RN together have 200 subs with nothing better to do than sink Soviet ships. At least 100 of them would be in/around/near Europe when the ball drops. Soviet ships would be unable to supply their efforts and USAFE air superiority keeps Frontal Aviation out of the battle. Should the Russians decide to go whole hog and support the invasion of West Germany with Russian-based air, they would fare little better as (a) we're bombing their bases and (b) their infrastructure wasn't/isn't that great to begin with. We don't know that in 1989, but they do...

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2019 10:10 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 22:10:55 -0400

It would have been a tough fight, seeing as how the terrain was urban and greatly favors defense, but the Russians would have brought the house. Main resistance broken in a day or two. Pockets of resistance for a week maybe.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Aug 23 at 2019 12:05 AM

SSG Trevor S. — Fri, 23 Aug 2019 00:05:31 -0400

It’s not the hold time, it’s the nuts time. Look up Bastogne to know what I’m talking about. Sometimes it just pays to be stubborn.

Response by 1SG Steven Imerman made Aug 23 at 2019 2:00 AM

1SG Steven Imerman — Fri, 23 Aug 2019 02:00:50 -0400

Long standing military wisdom, you need three to one superiority to attack successfully. The Soviets would have it in places initially, but better trained and better equipped NATO soldiers would start hurting them bad early on. As more NATO forces deployed into the actual battle, the Soviets would have started to seriously hemorrhage men and machines. The Soviets did not have many fuel tanker trucks, their doctrine was based on running surfaced laid pipelines from depots to where ever the troops were. NATO air, stay behind special forces (I knew two Green Berets who would stay behind in Berlin as German citizens to organize and lead the partisan effort), and spontaneous local partisans would soon turn that system into a nightmare. In the late 70s and early 80s we thought we would win but it would be a close run thing, but after the Soviet collapse it turned out so much of their vaunted might was all paper tiger stuff. Couple all that with NATO air forces a generation or more ahead of anything the Warsaw Pact had, they could not win. The initial surge would have taken territory, a quite a bit actually, but they wouldn't have made the Rhine.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Aug 23 at 2019 3:38 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Fri, 23 Aug 2019 03:38:23 -0400

Manning, equipment, resources, etc. were set at the level where "The Analysts" said it wouldn't be worthwhile to take a run at it. That and how big of a pill the voters would swallow. BTW NATO wasn't formed to face down the Soviets as WikiWhatever would have you believe. Research deeper. The Corporals and Sergeants of WWI were the Generals of WW2. They were agitating for a European Something for years because they were sick and tired of the Euro types butchering each other every 75 years since the 1300s. The Soviet rise was the "do it now dammit" moment. A side benefit of the NATO stand up was the requirement to use a free market system that the Marshall Plan imposed. Remember, very few free market systems out there until after WW2. Also the Supreme Allied Commander (Most Senior NATO Officer) has always been a US Flag. Deputies have been mostly British with Germans scattered around. There is a reason for this which gets back to the original reason NATO was conjured up. Easy to fall back into old habits.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Aug 23 at 2019 8:52 AM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Fri, 23 Aug 2019 08:52:05 -0400

After few hours of hard MOUT fighting, I think they would have just have just cut off West Berlin and let the starve. It took the Russians months of fighting to finally take Satalingrad from the Germans. It is a lot easy to defend in a city than to take it.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Aug 23 at 2019 10:56 AM

CPT Jack Durish — Fri, 23 Aug 2019 10:56:26 -0400

It's tempting to think that they would have fallen quickly. But go back and study the Battle of the Bulge. They were surrounded by a superior force too...

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Aug 23 at 2019 11:19 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Fri, 23 Aug 2019 11:19:06 -0400

On the outside,about a week.

Response by LTC Ken Connolly made Aug 23 at 2019 11:49 AM

LTC Ken Connolly — Fri, 23 Aug 2019 11:49:06 -0400

The response to that question would require some analysis beyond what can or should be relayed here.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 23 at 2019 2:19 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 23 Aug 2019 14:19:36 -0400

Another thought is what will happen to Russian logistics when we attack it. A prime example is the Battle of the Bulge where German logistics could not support its combat divisions.

Response by SrA David G made Aug 30 at 2019 5:10 PM

SrA David G — Fri, 30 Aug 2019 17:10:53 -0400

Major Landgren nails it. Berlin would be gone in 24-hours. The outcome for West Germany would depend upon how fast and with how much NATO could respond. The thing that attack aircraft do best is to attack things and people on the ground. Air superiority would be vital. Despite numerical superiority, USSR equipment and personnel were not the same quality as NATO. As far as combat troops this was true for both officers and enlisted but especially so for enlisted. Regarding West Germany specifically, the Germans would be fighting to defend their country. There is no greater motivation. European NATO forces would know that if West Germany fell then whatever their countries their military personnel represented would be targeted.

Response by MAJ Hugh Blanchard made Sep 11 at 2019 10:37 PM

MAJ Hugh Blanchard — Wed, 11 Sep 2019 22:37:23 -0400

Depends on how you define success. There were a number of plans on how the Berlin Brigade ought to respond to a Russian or Warsaw Pact attack. There were several NATO and US units and plans that could have made an invasion of West Berlin very difficult. These same units would have formed the foundation of a resistance as a stay-behind force.

Response by CPT Earl George made Sep 24 at 2019 7:55 PM

CPT Earl George — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 19:55:55 -0400

I was in Germany 72-75. I had a friend in the Berlin Brigade about the same time. It was a spit and polish dog and pony show. He said a soldier would get an Article 15 and be gone the next day. He felt there only to look good. I was stationed in Schweinfurt. For various reasons I do not care to mention here, It was obvious we could have been overrun easily.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2019 11:19 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:19:09 -0400

With no air cover.I would say a day, tops!

Response by SSG Johnnie Vaughn made Oct 20 at 2019 2:53 AM

SSG Johnnie Vaughn — Sun, 20 Oct 2019 02:53:04 -0400

The Cold War joke was that the Berlin Brigade would become the world's largest POW camp if the balloon went up. The Soviets wouldn't have a need to physically take them, and they had zero chance of fighting their way back to whatever friendly lines were left.

They existed as a political remnant of WWII. There were elements that were assigned to go underground and conduct guerrilla operations, but realistically they would have had little effect.

Response by MAJ Hugh Blanchard made Oct 20 at 2019 5:04 PM

MAJ Hugh Blanchard — Sun, 20 Oct 2019 17:04:45 -0400

I think we would have lasted a good bit longer than some others have opined. We would have had at least a few weeks of unambiguous warning that they were coming over the border. That's long enough to have put some really nasty surprises into effect. We have always publicly stated that use of CBRN weapons against us would trigger a nuclear response from us. I don't think anyone with a functioning brain would deliberately trigger that.

Response by COL Victor Hagan made Nov 7 at 2019 3:13 PM

COL Victor Hagan — Thu, 07 Nov 2019 15:13:34 -0500

The Berlin Brigade was a strong point. I don't recall there being any plan to reinforce them. As a young FA officer assigned to 3AD, the plan was to use tactical nukes to destroy concentration of their armor formations.

Response by SGM Major Stroupe made Nov 10 at 2019 5:50 PM

SGM Major Stroupe — Sun, 10 Nov 2019 17:50:19 -0500

Your question talks about history and how we fought. The plan was to put up a great defense and rush the main battle and supply chain to the front lines a quickly as possible. Realistically, your question was answered already by another response; they would have only been a speed bump in the road for the enemy. They were there as a deterrent. While that doesn't give you a great deal of confidence in serving that type of assignment you do have to realize that the US cannot maintain a regular fighting division at every major trouble spot on the globe. So you make the best of that assignment, soldier hard and let everyone know you are a professional soldier and move on to your next assignment. Serving is an honor and that is reflected in your soldering.

Response by SP5 Jerry Weaver made Aug 20 at 2021 10:04 AM

SP5 Jerry Weaver — Fri, 20 Aug 2021 10:04:08 -0400

I was stationed there from 88-90, HHC 6/502nd inf - I would have to agree with earlier comments and the sheer numbers would have overwhelmed us with the quickness. We were good but I think it was easy 10 to 1 odds

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Aug 20 at 2021 6:03 PM

MSG Thomas Currie — Fri, 20 Aug 2021 18:03:32 -0400

Having been in the one US tank company in the Berlin Brigade, I recall once having noted that in a "standing start" war where no one called up reserves or moved their forces, we had 22 tanks and the Soviet Forces Group Germany plus the East German Army had a total of 22 armored divisions on active duty. Of course those forces wouldn't have all been available to attack the city, but the point was simply that the combined US, British, French military plus German police in Berlin totaled less than one division.

The only question about the military outcome of a Soviet attack on Berlin was how much of the city the Soviets were willing to destroy to eliminate resistance.

One common thought game at the time was to consider the "Stalag Berlin" scenario which postulated the Soviet commander calling his US, British, and French counterparts to announce the commencement of a Warsaw Pact invasion of western Europe: "One way or another this will all be over in about a week, let's all just wait and see how it comes out" -- after all, West Berlin already looked like a POW camp surrounded by a fence and guard towers. That scenario was totally unreasonable, but the simple fact was that the allied forces in Berlin were accomplishing far more simply by being there than our military capabilities would otherwise account for.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2021 8:38 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Aug 2021 20:38:45 -0400

I was informed it would take 2 weeks to get reinforcements and at least I would be the first to know.

Response by SFC Randy Hellenbrand made Aug 20 at 2021 10:15 PM

SFC Randy Hellenbrand — Fri, 20 Aug 2021 22:15:25 -0400

A WWII German regiment held out against a soviet army for 105 days in 1942. Anyway, I'm a cold war vet, I would of lasted a long time.

Response by SGT Joe Downs made Aug 20 at 2021 11:19 PM

SGT Joe Downs — Fri, 20 Aug 2021 23:19:52 -0400

No crystal ball, so no definitive answer about the Berlin Brigade. For a possible outcome, pick up:
THE THIRD WORLD WAR, August 1985 (A Future History) written by General Sir John Hackett; published by McMillian Publishing Co, New York. It's only 396 pages, 28 Chapters and a good read. Fiction, yes, but written with an eye toward what we had, they had, the world had and how it all unfolded. Even though we were still shaking off the dust of Vietnam and had an All-Volunteer Army, money was tight, training was tighter, and we were starting to re-fit, re-think and become the professional force that has served so well throughout history. Serving from 1974 through 1979 on AD with a Reforger 77' under my belt, I can say that even though we might have been a bit rough around the edges, things were not all gloom and doom and we weren't going to just roll over and play dead for anyone! The Roo-skie's weren't all that and a bag of potato chips either, they had conscription issues, alcohol issues, and generally poor equipment. Logistics would have presented an early problem, but we would have handled business. (Think AIR & SEA bridge) Air superiority would have come first, screening and delaying, buying time for space, the German Home Guard, and like Korea 1951, (as an analogy), but in the end, "The Furstest with the Mostest". 101st Abn. Div. (AD) & 639th Trans. Co. (RDF) (USAR) & 2/278 ACR. (TNARNG) "Always First" & "Take Charge".

Response by MSG Stan Hutchison made Aug 21 at 2021 9:42 AM

MSG Stan Hutchison — Sat, 21 Aug 2021 09:42:45 -0400

That was a STRAC looking outfit anyway.

Response by CPT David Coffman made Nov 16 at 2021 1:46 PM

CPT David Coffman — Tue, 16 Nov 2021 13:46:49 -0500

Whenever we set up as IRF the 60's, the plan was to board the APC's, go to the Grunewald and set up defensive positions. I assumed we would then conduct harassment missions until over run. Given the shear numbers of Soviets around the perimeter, I don't think that would have taken much more than seven- ten days. The discussion among the troops was always about escape and evasion if that happened. 110 miles to the west with small groups and darkness as our only friends.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 6 at 2022 1:45 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 06 Apr 2022 13:45:04 -0400

Not long since the Soviets will have the element of surprise.