How many of us have seen closed-doors racism in the military?

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 May 2015 19:06:00 -0400

I don't have any links or surveys, just personal experiences.

From my observations, racism is alive in the military, particularly among officers. I don't know why it seems that way, but my guess would be that there are more minorities in the enlisted ranks?

My own observations mostly involved Marines; the interesting part was that they would - only behind closed doors - say some pretty awful things about nearly any minority you could imagine, including other Marines, but not a single one of them ever said any of those things about their own subordinates or teammates.

I've witnessed it a lot with the Army as well, a little bit with the Navy, and almost not at all with the Air Force. Is it perhaps just a grunt-centric attitude that they want to shock people with what they say, maybe? They say rough things for shock value, and don't act on those words? I'm not entirely convinced.

I've had plenty of friends - particularly while I was in college - who would say any awful thing necessary to get a good laugh from a group. Is that what this is? Or is there something else behind it?

Now's your chance to either sound off about how you feel, or set the story straight.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 7:11 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 May 2015 19:11:29 -0400

All I know is that a certain maintenance squadron in Little Rock covered up racism by the commander. He told everyone to shut up, basically. An airman was dropping N bombs and being hostile and since she was a favorite of the Sgts there she got off.. Pretty serious racist.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made May 12 at 2015 7:13 PM

PFC Tuan Trang — Tue, 12 May 2015 19:13:40 -0400

There always be couple of Enlisted and officer out there, I don't to disrespect any member, but i just want to point out something. We all join for a reason, to serve and protect for everyone to live freely, We fought side by side so why coudn't we just get along? If racism get the best of you then you fail the mission.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made May 12 at 2015 7:18 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Tue, 12 May 2015 19:18:44 -0400

I will defer to The Terminal Lance: http://terminallance.com/2014/05/06/terminal-lance-cinco-de-mayo-race-card-iii/

Terminal Lance - Terminal Lance “Cinco de Mayo: Race Card III”

Cualquier persona que ha estado en la Infantería de Marina durante más de cinco minutos le puede decir que no hay escasez de hispanos en el Cuerpo de Marines – a mí mismo ser un mestizo de clases ( Uriarte es un nombre vasco , la gente me pregunta esto mucho ) . Cada pelotón tiene una Ramírez, García , y muy probablemente un Sánchez. Esto no es una cosa de la raza, esto es ciencia .

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 12 at 2015 7:25 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Tue, 12 May 2015 19:25:13 -0400

I have never heard of racist jokes in private or public. Could be because I am a minority myself, but in 21 years in the army, I have been free of that terrible behavior.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 12 at 2015 7:37 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Tue, 12 May 2015 19:37:36 -0400

Can't say I've seen it in any form.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 8:15 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 May 2015 20:15:39 -0400

I witnessed plenty of racism in one of my previous units. I won't elaborate because it was handled. Perhaps it was an exception to the rule, as it were.

I don't think it is grunt Centrica, however....since it was the support MOS guys that were the perpetrators. The wording of your question came across sideways to me at first, since I am one of the Grunts, after reading it a second time I realized that you were asking an honest question.

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 12 at 2015 8:31 PM

COL Charles Williams — Tue, 12 May 2015 20:31:26 -0400

I believe LCDR Private RallyPoint Member this is another "it depends" answer. I did not look at your results thus far, nor could I vote, as none of your options are in line with my thinking.

These are my thoughts. My thoughts are that of a poor white kid from NJ, the son of single mom, who enlisted in the Army, went to OCS and served for almost 33 years (32 years, 11 months, 16 days).

1. I believe Racism will always exist, but I also believe we are far better today than we were in 1948. But, I also know we are not there yet. We are light years ahead of the rest of America. I believe off color comments become less and less acceptable, so perhaps the hardliners do go behind closed doors. I also know Soldiers know the rules and know how to talk the talk and ensure it they do have character flaws, they keep those beliefs close hold. I was never in that crowd. I also aggressively dealt with any behavior contrary to Army Values and AR 600-20.

2. I believe your racial perspective has to do with where you came from in America; life circumstances and location. My HS was 60% black and 40% white. So, when I arrived at Fort McClellan Alabama at MP OSUT in 1980, and joined 4th Platoon in an open bay... I was amazed/confused some were appalled they had to sleep in the same room as black Soldiers; they used other words. I now live in Mid - Missouri, and within 10 miles of hear most black Soldiers are less than welcome. It is like you go back in time when drive away from this military community. I get that. I don't like it, but this about what goes in the military not the community at large.

3. Racism is also a two way street. If you ask most Soldiers what racial discrimination is, they will most likely define it as the white majority oppressing the black minority; try it. The Army also knows, but will not acknowledge, that reverse discrimination also exists is largely ignored; some will call this "the Army's Dirty Little Secret." That is, turning your cheek to discrimination that does not fight the stereotype.

eg. In Jul of 2005 I gave an sub-standard OER (evaluation) to Lieutenant who was involved in a sexual assault; charged by Army CID for his involvement and for lying to CID. Clearly an Army Values failure. Well, in no time it was an EO complaint, and eventually an DAIG and DODIG whistleblower reprisal case. I ended up being Flagged (suspended from favorable actions - in limbo) for over 3years (Jul 06 to Sep 09), until the DODIG finally overturned/reversed everything. The Vice Chief of Staff himself called me to essentially tell me the Army got this wrong, and all would be fixed. All was cleared and restored on 28 Sep 09, and I was finally promoted 19 months late (yes, I got back pay) and returned to command list. The LT was black, my XO was black (the actual antagonist), and my Brigade Commander was black. They all argued (lied) that I gave this LT a bad OER because he was black, and because he made an EO complaint about the OER. No mention of the Sexual Assault nor lying to the CID. That LT... was passed over from promotion to CPT and is now out.

I have not personally seen behind closed doors racism, as I would not allow it or stand for it. But, I know racism unfortunately still exists. But, remember too, it takes on many forms.

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/desegregation/large/#1948

Added some RP colleagues as this topic is important to me and I am interested in your perspectives.

Truman Library: Desegregation of the Armed Forces Online Research File

September 1945: Secretary of War Robert P. Patterson appoints a board of three general officers to investigate the Army's policy with respect to African-Americans and to prepare a new policy that would provide for the efficient use of African-Americans in the Army. This board is called the Gillem Board, after its chairman, General Alvan C. Gillem, Jr.

Response by SFC Patrick R. Weston, MPH made May 12 at 2015 8:43 PM

SFC Patrick R. Weston, MPH — Tue, 12 May 2015 20:43:28 -0400

Closed door, not so much. But subtle racism, most definitely. Where it comes from is at once both simple and complex. For starters, all of those people in the last century that opposed civil rights did not simply disappear in the 1970's. They had children and their children had children and these people were raised in fear and took that with them into their adult lives. In certain MOS, there are trends of majority ethnic groups, and in these environments, certain predilections have plenty to feed on and grow, mich like a bacteria or a virus; the end results being similar in that the whole "organism" becomes infected.

As to whether there are more non-Caucasians in the enlisted ranks than officer ranks, this is a numerical fact. But there are reasons behind that as well, also complex and yet also so simple. That would take me too long to explain by itself, but I do hope that what I have shared provides a least a little insight into your question.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 12 at 2015 8:59 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Tue, 12 May 2015 20:59:00 -0400

Of course there is racism, there are human beings in the ranks. So long as our species continues the silly practice of making up fake distinctions like race instead of just identifying as human, you will always have racism...

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 12 at 2015 9:11 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Tue, 12 May 2015 21:11:34 -0400

I haven't experience that first hand in the military. I think many service members in the Army are afraid of the repercussions. If said, it may not haunt them for several years.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made May 12 at 2015 9:12 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Tue, 12 May 2015 21:12:38 -0400

To be blunt, there are #%$holes everywhere, and when located, they should be dealt with accordingly. The military is one of the last merit based organizations, where race should have no bearing on anything.

Something of note however... On the enlisted side, as you go UP in ranks, the ratio of non-Caucasian to Caucasian actually increases. In theory, racism would be a very bad idea on the enlisted side. (See link. Army p.28 E7-9 is at almost 50/50 ratio. The other services aren't quite as even, but still significant).

http://download.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/2012_Demographics_Report.pdf

On the Officer side however, the ratio drops significantly as you go up in ranks. There's other discussion threads which talk about this phenomena, so I won't go into that.

I personally never ran into "overt" racism even if it was behind closed doors. That doesn't mean stupid #$%^ wasn't said, just nothing to the level of an actual EO complaint.

Response by MSgt Brian Welch made May 12 at 2015 9:16 PM

MSgt Brian Welch — Tue, 12 May 2015 21:16:06 -0400

I'm glad to hear your experience with the AF proved negative for this situation. I spent 20 years in the AF and never saw any incidences of this involving anyone of rank, enlisted or officer. I may have seen younger folks act up a bit while in a bar drinking or what not but those moments didn't center around race as I recall. It always impressed me actually, that it was quite amazing that all these people from all different walks of life and backgrounds came together and functioned as a team so well.

Response by PFC Nathaniel Thedford made May 12 at 2015 9:19 PM

PFC Nathaniel Thedford — Tue, 12 May 2015 21:19:06 -0400

I think a lot of those that are racist had a lot of family and cultural influence. Most every nationality is against another nationality or of another region of that country/Nationality. In America there is so many variations of racism and/or prejudiced that it's easily seen, especially behind closed doors. I've seen white pride, Mexican pride, black pride, islander pride, etc. Their are plenty of divisions in the military and race is unfortunately one of them.

Response by SSgt Dan Montague made May 12 at 2015 10:05 PM

SSgt Dan Montague — Tue, 12 May 2015 22:05:05 -0400

We had a 1stSgt who was black. He would do anything to protect his fellow black Marines. One in particular was always late and mouthed off to NCO's. The 1st Sgt refused to NJP him when he was UA for an entire day. Any other Marines would get NJP for less offense.

While at our work sections one day a Marine from another unit approached me saying that a white Marine just called a black Marine a Ni@@@@. I was obligated to report it even though these Marines lived together and were best friends. Our 1stSgt , not the same one, was going to NJP this Marine. I went back to the work section to get this Marine. Then I heard a Black Marine jokingly yell at a white Marine calling him a honkey. I went to the 1stSgt and told him what was said. His reply was "honkey isn't that bad" I called BS!!. I said all the Marines heard it. If you NJP the white Marine for racial slurs, you must do the same to the black Marine. Im glad the 1stSgt had a change of heart. Instead he spoke to the entire battery about racism and perception.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 10:15 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 May 2015 22:15:49 -0400

I have not seen it in Nam or the posts I was signed to, but I did see it in 1967 Detroit riots. I saw three teenage boys shot in the back by shotguns the police used after we caught them in a chase after being shot at. The gun was a starter pistol and they were just being teenagers. We were told by our PL to keep our mouths shut, and we didn't see anything or hear anything. I've never forgotten and I have tried to get someone to investigate, but all I get, even from blacks, is drop it, it's not worth it. I've sent letters to the NAACP, Detroit Black Alliance, FBI, Detroit newspapers, and anything else I could think of. Look up 1967 Detroit riots and you will read about three boys killed in a shootout with the police in a hotel room. We stopped at a hotel and the cops got the boys out of the car and took them behind a hotel building alley, and shot them in the back. Nobody cares and nobody wants to open a can of worms that happened 50 years ago. I do, and I will keep trying. The relatives of the boys need some truthful closure.

Aubrey Pollard Black 19 July 26, 1967 Killed after a group of policemen and National Guardsmen stormed the Algiers Motel in search of snipers.
Carl Cooper Black 17 July 26, 1967 Killed with Pollard at the Algiers Motel.
Fred Temple Black 18 July 26, 1967 Killed in the Algiers Motel.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 11:46 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 May 2015 23:46:22 -0400

The question you need to add to your poll is who had the heart to stand up and make sure that it was stopped!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 12:16 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2015 00:16:18 -0400

I've definitely seen and heard comments and actions that an EO rep would consider racist. Looking back on the situations, had I been a casual observer, I may have considered some of the comments racist myself. That said, the situations that come to mind always had a humor tone and involved soldiers of multiple different races. I'm not justifying the actions, just giving context to the situation.

Sometimes it was a subtle as a comment from a white soldier to an Asian soldier to save some rice for everyone else. Other times it was a black soldier asking a white soldier if he wanted some ranch dressing for his french fries, because white people put ranch on everything. These were soldiers in the same team or squad messing with each other one second, and ready to fight and die with them the next. As long as the person being messed with didn't have a problem with it, neither did I. I did ensure everyone knew there was a line that would not be crossed.

I feel sometimes we are too quick to use the word racist, just like sometimes we are too quick to say something is hazing. I will say I have never seen anyone denied a position, award, promotion, or anything else based on the color of their skin, only on their merit. Conversely, I have never seen anyone awarded a position, promotion, award, etc. based on the color of their skin.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 1:37 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2015 01:37:56 -0400

I had seen it run the gambit from Homophobia, Religious based, Gender, and Race. I just shake my head and challenge them to be better than that.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 6:17 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2015 06:17:54 -0400

I'm the Equal Opportunity Leader (EOL) for my unit, which is deployed. We had an issue in the barracks with a lot of derogatory language. I approached the Soldiers and ordered them to stop. They thought I was funny. So, I got their leadership involved. Last night, a couple of my Soldiers came into my area to ask me a question. I answered and our conversation was complete. They started talking to each other, and one said "nigga" while talking to his buddy. I turned around and asked, "what did you just say?" He tried to play it off like he didn't do it. Then he admitted and said it wasn't a big deal, I was making it one, because that's the upbringing he grew up with. I had to remind him about the class I had just given the month prior about racist remarks and disparaging terms. I then pulled the group in and told everyone that the days of gangbanging, thugging, clansmen, cholo and so-forth are over. My statement is such, "if you cannot change your vocabulary or adjust your behavior to meet the standards of honorable military service and decency, let me know. I will do whatever is in my ability to have you removed from the service."

Response by MSgt Jamie Lyons made May 13 at 2015 6:40 AM

MSgt Jamie Lyons — Wed, 13 May 2015 06:40:46 -0400

Having been in the AF community for 38 years (18 yrs dependent and 20 years active duty) I honestly didn't witness much racism. Truth be told, I never noticed how bad it was until after my retirement and assimilation into the 'civilian' world. I have friends from every race, religion, and sex. Discrimination is taught. Need proof, watch little kids, they play with anyone and it is great! I treasure my friendships with all my friends and I value all their mentoring and experience. I thank God my parents wouldn't allow discrimination around my house or neighborhood. And hopefully my children have learned the same. Don't get me wrong, I have seen all types of discrimination since leaving the military community and cannot believe how bad it is. My advise for what it is worth, don't accept discrimination in any form in your life. Be open to different opinions and view points. Lastly, respect everyone and don't keep friends who discriminate.

Response by SGT George Smead made May 13 at 2015 7:42 PM

SGT George Smead — Wed, 13 May 2015 19:42:06 -0400

I have seen it go both ways. Most times groups will talk trash about others behind their backs, but be friendly in front of each other.

Response by Capt Jeff S. made May 20 at 2015 12:00 AM

Capt Jeff S. — Wed, 20 May 2015 00:00:09 -0400

The kind of racism I saw was where people were given preferential treatment and/or treated differently based on their race. People are afraid to call out substandard performance for fear of upsetting the PC police. It's not just race that's the problem, it's also gender, sexual orientation, and intelligence.

General Mundy got raked over the coals for stating a fact. Black LT's were having a more difficult time with land navigation than the other LT's. He correctly identified a problem and he was trying to figure out a solution... but you'll never find a solution if you don't state the problem! Catch-22.

I was a LT at The Basic School and at least in my company it was true. Our black LT's DID have a rougher time getting through Land Nav. For some, there was no difference and they did just fine, but a higher percentage of blacks did in fact have problems running around the woods with a map and compass, finding boxes hidden in the brush. Personally, I don't think it had anything to do with limitation of their cranial ability to abstract and visualize terrain features based on countour lines, but rather, it had to do with how they were brought up. Unless they grew up in the country, they probably didn't run into situations where they had to abstract and visualize terrain in their heads. They may not have ever been out camping in the woods, or played with a compass as youngsters. Maybe their interest in school was in other subjects besides math. For reasons unknown to Gen Mundy, they were having problems and he wanted to find solutions.

The fact that Gen Mundy identified a problem with Black LT's doing poorly at something was not racist, but it didn't stop the race baiters from whining and playing the race card. Gen Mundy was only guilty of being honest. Telling the truth and trying to address a known problem landed him in hot water. His punishment for telling the truth? If memory serves correct, he retired a couple months sooner than planned.

Response by SPC Angel Guma made May 20 at 2015 1:50 AM

SPC Angel Guma — Wed, 20 May 2015 01:50:14 -0400

Even the older officers and enlisted today were raised at least with the idea that blatant racism is wrong. But, of course, it still goes on behind closed doors. I have yet to meet any group, white, black, hispanic, or asian, -that when they are surrounded by their own ethnic group do not engage in some sort of racial bantering. Even minorities don't like it but then watch how vicious they are with each other. I'm starting to wonder if this is just how human beings are programmed to be.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2015 11:38 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 May 2015 11:38:59 -0400

I am of the thought that you will never fully stamp out racism, at least not anytime soon. I do not think that majority of humanity is evolved enough to really stamp out racism.

I'm not going to lie, I've said some pretty stupid shit about entire groups because of the actions of a few. I grew up in an all white neighborhood and went to all white schools. Cleveland, OH tried the forced desegregation with bussing kids from one side of town to the other, but I went to Catholic schools so that was a non-issue. I didn't grow up thinking members of different races were evil or bad or whatever. My parents didn't raise me to hate...but I did form my own opinions as I grew up and started experiencing the world outside of my house.

As a 40 something yr old man (that feels 25 mind you, ahem) - I'm wiser, smarter, and also more experienced in life. There are black people far more smarter and more skilled than I am. There are women that I wouldn't even joke around with for fear of getting my ass kicked (ok I'd still make the chauvinistic joke, but I'd try to outrun them, even Rowdy Rhonda Rousey - who I look upon as a role model actually). I also know there are some pretty ignorant white people that will refuse to learn or adapt. And you can take all of that, and mix it up and it will also be true. Every group has bad apples.

We just have to keep fighting. We'll win eventually...but we need to be patient and keep up the fight.

Response by LT Manuel Tatavak made Jun 13 at 2015 10:19 PM

LT Manuel Tatavak — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 22:19:04 -0400

I heard an occasional off color joke, but racism? I never ever witnessed an officer act in a racist manner. Never saw them hurt someone's chances in a fitrep or take any other adverse action just because of race or religion. It was all about integrity and work ethic at all of my commands for 13 years.

Response by TSgt Kenneth Ellis made Aug 30 at 2015 8:31 PM

TSgt Kenneth Ellis — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 20:31:35 -0400

Let's see a celebrity used the "N" ten years ago. And is forced off the air and banished from the air waves. Heck if you say marriage is between a man and a woman your career is going no ware. And Racism is used to describe everything now.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2016 10:44 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Jan 2016 10:44:37 -0500

Statistically, the number of people who are racial minorities who are part of the officer corps is higher than the percentage of the general population comprised of those minorities. Are there individuals in the military who are racist? Of course there are. But I believe there are pretty strong protections built into the system against institutionalized rqcism.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Feb 11 at 2020 3:28 AM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 03:28:22 -0500

I Know I Used to Say some God Awful things. Not thinking, Not Realizing just how Hurtful they could be. I was raised in Unique Community in Cincinnati, OH German/Irish/Black and there definitely were some terms that Have no Place in Polite Society, Hell existing at all. If You're from Cincinnati a Very Common Slam is "Communist Faggot" I used that Way to Often and I was quite Old before I figured Out Just How Offensive that was. While I served on the Arkansas I had a Black Co-Worker born in the British East Indies, A very talented Cryptologic Technician Maintenance, Nothing He Couldn't fix but Often I made a Crack that He had a Magic Chicken Foot that Fixed Everything, I'm Really Sure, He didn't Like that. Wisdom Come with Age I Hope.